Replies

1. 
   doorboy | Oct 17, 2008 04:41pm | #1

   Steve,
   I know hickory, pecan, and walnut are close relatives--so much so that they are interchangeable at some lumber yards. Pecan is not quite as hard and tough as hickory and it should do nicely for your project.
   By the way, down here in Texas, it's pronounced pe-KAHN, not pea-can. You will get corrected if you mispronounce it.
2. 
   dkellernc | Oct 17, 2008 05:09pm | #2

   Depends on what you mean by "difficult to work".  Pecan is, in my experience, just as resistant to splitting and just as hard as hickory, so working it with hand tools is fairly difficult.  However, it seems to cut and sand well, so if you're using power tools it should be no problem.

   My thought is that you may want to try specialty lumber yards (the small mom and pop operations) or perhaps call up someone with a Woodmizer that cuts downed trees and sells the lumber.  I've had a rep at one of the large wood retailers absolutely INSIST that pecan and hickory were the same tree (botanically as well as the lumber).  Apparently, the dude had never been to a pecan orchard nor walked around in the woods.

1. 
   EdHarrison | Oct 17, 2008 06:36pm | #3

   >I've had a rep at one of the large wood retailers absolutely INSIST that pecan and hickory were the same tree (botanically as well as the lumber). <Hah! Just discovered yesterday that I've got two Nutmeg Hickories growing in a creek bottom on my property. Well, I knew they were there - I mean I just figured out yesterday what they were. One of them is making some nuts this year and for a brief moment I was hoping they were pecans. Nah. Nothing I can eat - some animals like 'em, though.For the original poster - don't know where you're located, but you can usually find Hickory and Pecan in the East and Southeast of the USA at hardwood suppliers. There are about 5-6 different types of Hickory that are generally all sold interchangeably. Pecan is usually separated though its a close relative. Someone (Jon Arno) pointed out years ago on knots that the original French-speaking settlers of the Mississippi Valley made copies of French furniture in pecan using hand tools.

2. 
   bigfootnampa | Oct 18, 2008 06:32pm | #12

   I've had a rep at one of the large wood retailers absolutely INSIST that pecan and hickory were the same tree (botanically as well as the lumber). 

   Of course he would be correct in the strictest sense as pecan is a member of the hickory family... there are dozens (if not hundreds) of different trees in the oak families and lumbermen sort them into only two categories.  So pecan IS hickory... but not all hickory is pecan. 

   I have some pecan and might be persuaded to part with some if you are desperate.  A truly lovely wood!  I find that it saws, carves, sands and finishes, very nicely.  My stock has a few knots and drying splits (which I treasure for their amazing beauty) that make it a challenge to plane.  It is better to sand, carve or scrape.  It is the most versatile wood I have... as I use it for furniture, tool handles. counters and wherever else I can think to display it.  I love it and so am reluctant to part with it... but I may have more than I will ever use as I am now working with lots of wood straight from the (often spalted) log.

   Here's a picture of a marlinspike I made with a pecan handle (lathe textured and antiqued) sitting on a pecan bar/counter top that I made of a plank of my pecan stock.  I carved/scraped/sanded the counter surface but left some saw marks and some planer chip-outs and even a few worm holes as I LOVE them.  I then tinted my finish to darken the color overall as I wanted to cut the sapwood-heartwood contrast and harmonize better with my existing cabinetry and very dark granite counters.  The result is one of the pieces of work that I am most proud of in my long woodworking career... this picture is but a hint of the richly patinaed beauty of this countertop.

   
1. 
   dkellernc | Oct 19, 2008 04:57pm | #13

   While true that hickories and pecans are the same family, to me that doesn't mean "the same" (at least botanically).  After all, "oaks" are in the same family, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't draw a sharp distinction between live oak and southern red oak, for example.  And of course, the nuts from each tree could not possibly be confused unless it's someone that's never tried to crack open one and eat it!

   Thanks for the offer for pecan, but I think you want to direct that to the gentleman that started the thread.  I've a chainsaw lumber mill and have a lot of pecan sawn up as lumber - the hurricanes in the last 10 years in NC have ensured a ready supply of urban trees that go down, or where the owners get fed up with the mess the squirrels make and want them gone.

2. 
   steve2k | Oct 21, 2008 06:24am | #18

   Thanks for the generous offer but it would be close to criminal for you not to have the opportunity to continue making treasures from your pecan supply. You speak so fondly about it that I'm looking forward to working on my project even more than I had been. I also appreciate your information about working and staining the wood. Any other photos of work we can admire.

3. 
   YesMaam27577 | Oct 17, 2008 07:21pm | #4

   Hickory, pecan, walnut, butternut -- all have very similar grain patterns and structures.

   Even red birch could be used with the right stain.

   And if you truly want some pecan, I have three trees in my front yard that I would be happy to give you. You cut them and haul them, and they're yours.

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
4. 
   mapleman | Oct 17, 2008 08:25pm | #5

   Steve,

   You really should fill out your profile - let's people know where you are.

   As for the lumber - plenty of both around here where I live. I don't care what anyone says - pecan and hickory have a different distinct look. One of my local suppliers carry both species separated, the other supplier mixes it together but I can usually tell the difference. Depending on what (how much) you need I could get it for you and ship it, contact me offline via email if interested. Depending on how far away you are from me and how much you need, it may not be worthwhile to  pay to ship it.

   And I don't know where you other guys are getting your walnut, but I have not run across any walnut in my life that could be mistake for hickory or pecan. The only similarities is that all 3 trees produce nuts.

   Lee

1. 
   joinerswork | Oct 17, 2008 08:38pm | #6

   lee,

   I'd be interested in your take on differentiating between hickory and pecan.  I had an order for a piece in pecan several years back, and the supplier I got mine from listed it as "hickory/pecan"-- what I got I was I guess hickory, for I could not tell the difference from what I know to have been hickory that I had worked before. I had no trouble matching the "pecan" furniture the customer already had with what the dealer sent me, or with "pecan" veneer that I got elsewhere for the same project so I was under the impression that the two were really interchangeable/ indistinguishable.  Creamy sapwood, light brown heartwood.  Hard as a bone, tough, stringy, prone to tearout for no apparent reason (hard to read the grain), heartwood slightly more brittle.

   Have worked some walnut that was as brash and hateful as hickory, but that was the exception.  Like you say, you'd have to be blind to mistake walnut for hickory.  Butternut is so much lighter in weight (tho similar in color), and so much more pleasant to work that it is hard to think it'd be mistaken for it either.

   Ray

1. 
   mapleman | Oct 18, 2008 02:57am | #9

   Hi Ray,

   I'm surely no expert, but I do get to see quite a bit of hickory and pecan come through the cabinet shop I work for. Normally we buy and resell the hickory/pecan mix because of the lower price. We recently had a customer who was extremely picky and wanted some vanitiy cabinets as dark/brown as possible. When we went through quite a bit of hickory and did not find exactly what we were looking for, another supplier suggested we take a look at their pecan (sorted as only pecan). Bingo!

   From what I have seen, the sapwood in pecan (at least locally) has just a slight blush of pink tint to it, and the heartwood is generally darker brown, but also a different shade of brown if that makes sense, than hickory. Also, while the two are related, I think the open pores in pecan are smaller and tighter than hickory - another giveaway.

   Now I'm sure you could fool me in a double blind taste test ;) , but I feel confident if you gave me a stack of boards I could get you pretty close (80%) to picking out the pecan. Especially on boards with a mix of heart and sap.

    

   Here is some info from the web:

   Hickory lumber (Genus: Carya) comes from eight different trees four species called "true hickory" (shagbark, pignut, shellbark and mockernut) and four species of "pecan hickory" (bitternut, pecan, water hickory and nutmeg hickory).

   In the marketplace, you can get any of the eight species when you buy hickory lumber. True hickory is found throughout the eastern United States. However, the range of pecan hickories is limited; bitternut is throughout the eastern United States; pecan is found from Texas to Louisiana, through Missouri and Indiana; water hickory is found in Texas through South Carolina; and nutmeg is found in Texas and Louisiana. Separation of lumber into the two groups is impossible unless chemical or microscopic tests are used. However, many users indicate that they prefer true hickory as they believe it has better color and seems to handle better. Character hickory (with knots, streaks and similar; low grade lumber which keeps costs under control) has also recently become popular for furniture, cabinets and flooring.

   Hickory has many uses, including baseball bats (true hickory is preferred), tool handles (excellent shock resistance), drum sticks (true hickory only), furniture (growing in importance) and cabinets.

    

   Processing suggestions and characteristics

   Density. The density of true hickories averages about 50 pounds per cubic foot at 8 percent MC. This is heavier than oak. Pecan hickories average about 42 pounds per cubic foot. A dried and planed board foot of lumber will weigh more than three pounds.

   Drying. Both hickories are difficult to dry and require close control of drying environments. The wood can check if dried too quickly. Staining if dried too slowly or stored when green is likely, especially a blotchy type gray stain or overall pinking. Shrinkage in drying is around 7 percent.

   Final moisture content for hickory should be 6.5 to 7.5 percent. Higher MCs cannot be accepted due to hickory's high shrinkage; lower MCs result in excessive chipped grain.

   Gluing and machining. Hickory is very unforgiving when gluing due to its high density. Surfaces must be flat, smooth and freshly prepared. Clamp carriers are probably best for this wood. True hickory is more difficult to glue than pecan hickory.

   Machining of hickory is difficult due to its density. Chipped grain is common if knives are not sharp. Dull knives also result in a rough flatsawn surface where the large vessel cells are located. Correct MC is critical. With proper knives and machines, the surface is excellent in quality, however. Usually, machine tools need to have a larger tool (or sharpness) angle, thereby increasing the amount of metal in the tool.

   Stability. Hickory is not too stable when the MC changes. Hickory changes about 1 percent in size for each 3 percent MC change running across the grain parallel to the rings (tangentially), and about 1 percent size change for each 4 percent MC change across the rings (radially).

   Strength. The hickories are one of the strongest native softwoods. Bending strength (MOR) averages 19,500 psi for true hickory and 16,000 psi for pecan. Stiffness (MOE) averages 2.0 million psi for true hickory and 1.8 million psi for pecan.

   Color and grain. I think that the true hickory group has more uniform and lighter color than the pecan hickory group. Both seem to have nice grain and color character, however, after finishing. If dried correctly, the heartwood is fairly white colored, with tinges of brown and sometimes red. The large pores in hickory present some of the same finishing problems as oak, hackberry and ash.

    

   Cheers,

   Lee

1. 
   WillGeorge | Oct 18, 2008 12:52pm | #10

   pecan is found from Texas !! I agree! I found out the hard way!

   Old Tank mechanic here.. 1960 or there about. in Fort Hood Texas. 2nd Armord... 16 th. Artillary..      C or D Battery.. I forgets! Maybe even A or B?  LOL.. Gettin' old is hard!

   I had a Tank Reteiver... M88? as I recall. Shaking the TRUE PECAN tree for nuts for us to eat.. I got carried away and the tree fell down.. I was fined a Month pay!

   BIG DEAL then! Open Range but Protected from fools like me!

    

2. 
   joinerswork | Oct 18, 2008 03:24pm | #11

   Thanks Lee,

   You da man.

   Ray

3. 
   WillGeorge | Oct 19, 2008 06:28pm | #14

   Lee ..

   Can I add?

   Hickory (never used a 'true' pecan) is NOT hard to work (assuming you work with other very hard woods). Some of it can be quite beautiful and really not hard on modern tools. I have to admit it will 'shatter' sometimes. Especially when using a router if you do not 'watch' the grain. Very much like working Purpleheart or Jatoba.

   It is far from a 'junk' wood! Maybe someday I'll run across some true Pecan...

2. 
   steve2k | Oct 21, 2008 06:07am | #16

   Thanks for reminding me to fill out my profile. It's done now. I live in southeast Tennessee and have found some hickory but no pecan. I have a couple of other places to look so maybe one of them will have some. And I agree about the walnut!.Steve

1. 
   mapleman | Oct 21, 2008 08:36pm | #19

   Steve,

   Southeast Tenn., huh? If you had posted 3 weeks ago I could have brought you all you need. Just passed through on the way to the mtns.

   Good luck,

   Lee

5. 
   PCM | Oct 17, 2008 09:04pm | #7

   Steve,

   Try Steve Wall Lumber, http://www.walllumber.com. He carries hickory-pecan (his labeling).

   I have bought several lots of lumber from him, always very satisfied.

   I agree hickory and pecan look almost the same, but walnut and butternut are very different.

1. 
   steve2k | Oct 21, 2008 06:11am | #17

   Thanks. I appreciate the possible source if I can't find some around here. It's good to have the recommendation of a satisfied customer.

6. 
   Ckenney | Oct 18, 2008 12:06am | #8

   Hearne's Hardwoods in PA has Pecan (not "Hickory-Pecan", but real Pecan) including some UPS bundle options for 15 board feet or 50 board feet.

   http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/xcart/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=73

   Enjoy! Looks like some nice stuff.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/17/2008 5:07 pm ET by Ckenney

7. 
   Scott_y | Oct 20, 2008 10:22pm | #15

   Here is a box I made from some lightly spalted pecan. I found it easy to work even with my limited skills.

   http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=37255.1

    

   Scotty