Anybody fork out the bucks to get the new Festool Kapex today?
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Anybody fork out the bucks to get the new Festool Kapex today?
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Replies
I was just about to ask that lol.
I think I have to mow a few more lawns
I <3 Festool
I trim houses for part of my living. A slider is my right hand tool. I've been through quite a few. The Kapex would make sense to me but I want to see, hear and feel one before shelling out the bucks. It would have to be significantly better than the other offerings, to justify the cost. I don't have any accuracy issues with the better saws available but dust collection and noise are two things that need improvement.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Leaving the Kapex out of the equation for now, which miter saw do you prefer to use for trimming a house. I have a 12" Makita, and absolutely hate it. I'm moving to a new home soon, and will be trimming it myself. I was heading in the direction of the Bosch 12" slider. What are your thoughts, and what CMS do you prefer?
Jeff
Jeff,
I am a big fan of the Bosch 12" Sliding Compound Miter Saw. I upgraded from the 10" version which served me well for many years until I lent it to a friend and it came back with a lot of runout in the arbor bearing. I won't say he abused the saw... well, OK I will... he abused it!
I use the 12" in the shop and for trim work as I renovate my home. It is well designed, well made and produces accurate, repeatable results.
If I had to find a negative, it is that the dust collection is not good. Even with a shop vac directly hooked up to the thing, there is a lot of blow by dust that is not captured. I found this to be true of the other miter saws I have owned. I do think this is one area ther Festool claims they have made improvement.
I'm curious; what don't you like about your Makita?
My Makita, to put it lightly, is a total piece of crap. I believe I purchased one of the first of it's kind (model #), and it won't stay square and true. The fence is made of aluminum, and I can only guess that it's a poor grade of aluminum, because it's never straight and in alignment. The fence was poorly designed, and I can't get a square cut from both sides of the saw.
What really scorched my bones about absolutely never buying a Makita again is the way I was treated when I called Makita to get help. The so called supervisor in their service department actually told me over the phone to remove the fence, and "stomp" on it to straighten it out. He actually said that, I'm not kidding. They wouldn't replace the whole saw for me.
So, when I use it, I always use a shooting board after, as it's the only way to get a square cut (when I'm building furniture.) At the jobsite, I've grown accustomed to tweaking the table a adjustment a little to get good miters, a hair of a degree here and there, so to speak.
I'm looking forward to melting it down after I replace it.
Jeff
"I'm looking forward to melting it down after I replace it."
Oh, don't melt it down. Don't you have friends that like to borrow your tools?
"Oh, don't melt it down. Don't you have friends that like to borrow your tools?"
Good Tink!
Keep up the good work!!
-Jerry
I have heard that the 10"Bosch is a better saw and if you want to save your back ? the 12"is a heavier saw.
Edited 7/9/2008 3:35 pm ET by woodenhead
I have heard that the 10"Bosch is a better saw and if you want to save your back ? the 12"is a heavier saw.
I had the older 10"Bosch Slider. It was not duel bevel, it was direct drive, not belt drive and it didn't have the ergonomic handle. The newer Bosch sliders are MUCH improved.
As for size and weight, I just checked the 10 and 12 on Amazon. The 10 weighs 55lbs. The 12 weighs 59lbs. The 10 has a 22.5" wide base and the 12 has a 25.5" base. That's not such a huge difference considering the increased capacity of the 12.
The DeWalt, by comparison is either 57 or 67 lbs, depending what part of the description you read. It says it ships, packed at 68.
The Kapex is 19.5 inches wide and weighs in at 47lbs. It can crosscut a 12 inch board 3.5 inches thick. The Bosch can cut at 12 inch board at 4.5 inches thick.
My experience with sliders goes way back, so the models I have owned are a previous generation than those on the shelves today. I can't say any have been without some quirks that you have to live with. I think the major brands are all good saws and stand up to rigorous daily use, DeWalt, Hitachi, Makita, Bosch. Currently, I'm running a Bosch 10". I have had to rebuild the arbor bearings. Seeing how the guts of the saw are put together, I'm not very impressed with Bosch engineering. I've been hesitating to buy a new saw, primarily because I'm not out on job sites everyday like I was. Many of my cutting needs are handled by my table saw, and the Bosch is still working well.I don't like a complicated saw. In trimming houses, you are flipping the saw from left to right to center all day long. If I want to set the cut, off the detent just a hair, I want it to be easy. The Bosch has a thumb latch that can be disengaged. I don't like having to re-position a fence when making all those changes, as in the Hitachi and Makita. Double bevel would be nice but none of my saws have ever had it, I've managed without. I didn't buy a Makita because of the large rotating table and controls on the side. I looked at saws last year. I narrowed it down to the DeWalt. I had used one for a while and liked it. I would like to see a Metabo. The dust on sliders exits straight out the back of the blade. The DeWalt has an orifice there in line on the post. The problem is it's too small. Metabo collects under the table. Sounds good on paper but I haven't seen or used one in person.When you are pulling the trigger a hundred times a day, that screeching saw is very annoying and I'm sure, damaging. I want to hear my next saw before purchasing. I keep half a dozen blades in rotation between the sharpener and job. I like the negative hook type slider blades and can find nice performing Freuds at bargain prices. Blade cost is a consideration when you need quite a few.When I need precise and controlled cuts, particularly on moldings, I attach a combo fence and sacrificial table to my saw. I want a saw that can swing and tip while using these and allows easy attachment of the auxiliary fence/table. The Bosch is good for this. I haven't tried it on the DeWalt. The Metabo looks fairly simple. Sorry I don't have a more definitive answer. You don't really know a saws limitations and quirks until you have used one for a while. I've owned a 9" Rockwell, 8 1/4" Hitachi, two 10" Hitachi's, 10" Bosch and a 10" non sliding Makita.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
hammer
Thanks for the thorough answer. It was more helpful than just a definitive "buy xyz saw" answer. I know, after 20+ years in the trades, that any and all tools have their shortcomings and quirks. I'll be investigating this further, as soon as my house sells.
The Bosch name comes up frequently during this conversation, and it may be the saw for me. With my ability to work inside a closed up shop being limited (lung health issue) I've begun taking remodeling and construction jobs once again. While I won't be just trimming jobs out, it will be a part of every job I do. Thus, a good saw is definately a strong desire.
Jeff
Jeff,If you want an excellent saw at a good price then the Hitachi C8FB2 8 1/2" slider will handle all your needs.I used one for 12 years as a finish carpenter and only needed to replace brushes and clean the slides every so often.It only tilts one way, which is not so bad. If that saw tilted both ways it would be the ultimate finish saw. Put a decent blade on it and let it rip.F.
What is the height capacity of the saw with the mouldings standing up. I like to make tall mouldings, 5 1/2" for base, and I use 6" to 7" crown all the time. With my Makita, getting an accurate cut with the mouldings laying flat is quite difficult, as the saw was poorly manufactured.
Jeff
Jeff,I cut all my moulding on the flat.It is much easier to adjust for out of square walls when the moulding is lying on the table. At least to me. I would never stand up base to cut it. Not even the 3 1/4" cheap stuff for apartment jobs.The Hitachi has about a 3" depth of cut, I think. I could not cut all the way through a 3 1/4" newell post without flipping the piece if I recall correctly. I used an old Delta 10" ,34-080, chop saw for newell post and rail installations.I know this may sound crazy, but once you master the ability to cut crown moulding flat on the table you will never go back to standing it up. It is so much easier to tweak the miter when the moulding is flat. Plus you are not limited by the height of the blade. The Hitachi, like most other saws, comes with detents for cutting crown on the flat, either 45 or 52 degree crown. After mastering that technique then I will explain how to cope crown with a jigsaw, sans Collins coping foot or any other geegaw.I never understood the concept of the 12" or even 15" compound miter saw. That is just too much metal spinning around to get a decent cut. I know that which I say may seem to be counterintuitive, but it is just my experience.Success can only be judged by the results. I have seen my fair share of "carpenters" with the best and newest tools and their work still looked like ####. There is no substitute for experience.F.
Don't have one but saw (pardon the pun) one demoed and it's a nice machine, less noisy, great dust collection and the rail the motor slides one is forward so it can be closer to a wall. The funny thing was that the guy doing the demo tried to cut a 4x6 at a 45% bevel and the saw does not have the capacity to do this. Anyway a nice machine as it should be for 1300 dollars.
Troy
I got to believe that Festool has targeted the machine more towards the finish carpenter and cabinet maker crowd, so I guess it's not too surprising that the gentleman attempting to cut a 4x6 at 45' was not accommodated
I'll get mine right after my Jointmaker Pro.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Time for a reality check here. I've seen this thing and it's OK. And I know it has variable speed, better dust control and is quieter than the average sliding compound miter.
BUT
If if I put it on a bench next to the Bosch 12in Duel Bevel SCMS at just over $600, it's NO CONTEST! If someone can argue that the Festool is better, fine; but there is no way to make a convincing argument that it is $700 better.
Let me put it this way. For $1300 you can either have the Kapex or the Bosch 12" Duel Bevel SCMS. Except that the Bosch would come with an envelope containing 7 $100 bills!
Or another way of looking at it. It's plasticy with a little motor. Unless it ships with 100bf of Honduras Mahogany it isn't worth $1300. That's the price of an entry level cabinet saw.... you can buy a Jet 1442 lathe at over 400lbs, with variable speed for $200 less than this light weight saw!
I'm all for buying good tools, but I'm seeing this Festool thing getting way out of hand too. There was a big abyss created when all the tool manufacturers got under one flag and started cheaping down their stuff for the box stores. Festool seems to have filled that void and wants the place as the high-end tool company. I guess they feel they are the only game in town and that buyers are willing to overpay for the 'status symbol' factor.
Now, if you went out and bought one of these, please, don't take offense to my position. I don't think you're crazy. I just think I'd like to have you as one of my customers :-)
Have I mentioned that you can buy a Bosch 12" duel bevel CSMS, a DeWalt DW735 Thickness Planer and a Bosch Palm Router for the money it would cost to buy one of these Festool Kapex Saws and maybe have enough left over for lunch on the way home?
OK, I'll stop now... just my 2 cents worth of reality.
Frank
"OK, I'll stop now... just my 2 cents worth of reality."
Frank,
Didn't you mean to say 70000 cents worth of reality? (:>
-Jerry
Didn't you mean to say 70000 cents worth of reality? (:>
Actually, that would be 130,000 cents worth of reality. I can think of MUCH better things to spend $1300 on than a slider, regardless who makes it.
I have a ton of Festool products, and I mean a TON of it, even their Sys Port rolling cabinets to put all my systainers in.But there is NO WAY I would spend $1300...+$170 for the miter stops...+$375 for the special height table (made because the Kapex handle is too high for standard miter saw stands)...+$128 for a fine tooth blade GRAND TOTAL $2,111.00 based on NC sales tax.No thanks.
The price is driven so high by the exchange rates. The dollar has no buying power and has been driven downwards to help American business sell their products abroad.
"...and has been driven downwards to help American business sell their products abroad." I'm no economics expert, to say the least, but this sounds odd to me. I don't think some unnamed person(s) arranged to have the dollar tank so that American businesses could sell better abroad. It makes more sense that it tanked because of the infamous home-financing debacle and the ripple effect that had on our economy, which was driven in large part by consumerism funded by home equity (non-existent equity in many cases). forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forest...
One SMART Wonan.. Hit the nail on the head on that one!
I loved the post.. but there is no way to make a convincing argument that it is $700 better. AND the envelope..
I looked at the 800? or so US dollar router. I asked to use it at my local Rockler...
Nice tool BUT! Except for a MUCH better plunge accuracy nothin' special from the junk I use. However, that accurate plunge was not THAT much better, and for the price I thought you should not have to 'fight' getting the plunge started as I do with my junk I have now..
If I was back working I'd hire their Marketing Manager,,, I walked away without one. Want to know why? They had the tools BUT not all the accessories I wanted at the time! I NEVER buy anything without ALL I want at the time,,,
Yes! I AM ONE of those folks that is a IMPULSE buyer...
EDIT:
I always say I love my cheeeeeeep 99 Dollar Ryobi routers. I did until I used one on my MFT? LIEGH some arrangement of those three letters. After using my Ryobi routers I still love.. My good OLD PC came out best! AND I had put dog head set screws into the router post to hold thing straight.. Damn...
Width of the everything was better en' goog but for some reason the length of the cuta were a bit off.. Still very useable BUT I knows the MFT can do better!
Love then Canadie' up north folks ,, Make nice tools!
Edited 7/4/2008 2:47 pm by WillGeorge
Frank, I totally agree with you on the "getting out of hand" I'm a justifiable spending guy and I allready bought all the tools I need. I'm soo over buying tools anymore. I have what I need to do business and make money. They are morons at festool!!! Kinda like paying a million dollars for the Lamello biscuit jointer, when you can buy the dewalt for a buck eighty.
Like the economy can support such a tool right now!!!
-Lou
p.s. can't wait to shell out 800 for a shopvac too
Edited 7/11/2008 6:25 am ET by loucarabasi
Do you really think that anyone will subject themselves to certain abuse here by admitting they bought one. Remember the Domino?
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
If I had one I would not mind admitiing it. I've been married for 23 years so abuse is nothing new. I was curious if anyone had one and get some early reviews. I've been watching the FOG site and will be waiting for the testimonials to come in. I was not that big a fan of the festool price point till I bought my first one. Quality is unbeleivable. And yes it was the domino and I love it. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Peter,
Abuse — really?Greg
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Exo 35:30-35<!---->
You are right..not abuse, but derision and abuse from "real woodworkers" :-)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 7/3/2008 12:21 am by PeterDurand
Here we go with the Festool debate again. I am surprised at a claim that if others admit to purchasing a certain tool they will be ridiculed and abused by "real woodworkers." I am not a Festool man to the point of being a "zombie". I own a few of their tools and find them first class in every way. I buy the ones that I use a lot and plan on using for a lifetime.I will not be purchasing the Kapex, because my Ridgid sliding compound miter gets very little use. If I used it substantially, I would probably consider one. (I'd have to create a new budget category to get one though!) Imagine my gall putting a Festool next to a Ridgid at the same workbench — like sitting the Clampets and the Trumps at the same table for vittles.I guess my point here is I don't find a person's choice in anything as a reason for ridicule and abuse. Insinuating people who buy them are not real craftsmen — well maybe I am getting soft-hearted in my middle age.Greg
•••••••
Exo 35:30-35
Edited 7/3/2008 11:50 am by Cincinnati
Just for feedback, I bought the linear sander and allied to Mirka Abranet pads, which at 70X125mm just fit, I cannot imagine a better way of power sanding small areas.
Abranet is seriously cool, I use the discs almost exclusively on my random orbital sander.
One good thing for us po' folk when it comes to the Kapex, it's causing some very nice sliding CMS's to come on the market at good prices!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
So is the Kapex the same as their guided saw system where you have to buy their blade? The cost would be a tie breaker for me but even if the cost was less I want a saw that if I need a blade I can go down town in my town to buy one. This & the cost is the reason I purchased a
EurekaZone (EZ-Smart System).Please don't make this a war between the two systems. I just in matter of fact way stated why I purchased my system.
With a Hitachi circular saw & 114" system with Smart Router Kit & EZ Handle with Smart Square I only paid $570 that is just a little more then the cost of a Festool saw & I use my shop vac for dust collection.I have no plans to use it inside a residence so I don't need perfect DC & I can go downtown & buy a new blade & it doesn't cost near as much as a Festool blade.
So is the Kapex the same as their guided saw system where you have to buy their blade? The cost would be a tie breaker for me but even if the cost was less I want a saw that if I need a blade I can go down town in my town to buy one.
I don't buy my blades that often and I use Forrest blades and they will put any diameter arbor hole you spec so not an issue for me. If I do get the kapex, I would keep the stock blade, I got the chance to see it in action at Rockler and it's a top notch blade. Why replace a good thing.
This & the cost is the reason I purchased a EurekaZone (EZ-Smart System).Please don't make this a war between the two systems. I just in matter of fact way stated why I purchased my system.
No war here, I think everybody has the right to buy what ever they think is best. I'm not familar with the ez-smart system so I can't comment. I have a PC CS with a forrest 7"WWII and a Grip-tight clamping strait edge that works great up to 48". I don't cut that much ply so that is not a critical to me although the riving knife and DC of the festool is great.
With a Hitachi circular saw & 114" system with Smart Router Kit & EZ Handle with Smart Square I only paid $570 that is just a little more then the cost of a Festool saw & I use my shop vac for dust collection.I have no plans to use it inside a residence so I don't need perfect DC & I can go downtown & buy a new blade & it doesn't cost near as much as a Festool blade.
Like I said above to each his own! Have a good 4th.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
"No war here, I think everybody has the right to buy what ever they think is best."
Thank you, bones. Occasionally I read something that just makes so much sense. You notice I said occasionally.....(:>
-Jerry
Bones,
"I've been married for 23 years so abuse is nothing new." How is your family taking it? <g>
To a professional, the extra price might not be an issue (or to a rich hobbyist), since the saw can bring it back in a reasonable time, and then some more.
Even a hobbyist might break even (we are not pricing the time...) with some projects around the house. Of course, the features that the extra cost buys might not be of much interest/use to a hobbyist. But then the pleasure of using a fine tool...at the right price...<g>
Best wishes,
Metod
I'd say I'm one of the richest men on earth! Have a happy 4th.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 7/3/2008 11:56 am by bones
Amen Brother !
I've $3500 handplanes that I use with regularity, so I'm no stranger to the "you're an idiot" comment from the penny-pinching crowd. That said, the Kapex has a (in my opinion) deal-breaking flaw - a non-standard arbor hole that means you must buy Festo's blades or custom-order them from another manufacturer.
Just a personal opinion, but that's idiotic. While in theory a larger arbor is stronger and would potentially run with less vibration, in practice I've never had a problem with vibration from my 10-year old Dewalt 12" miter saw. The cuts are smoother than necessary with a Forrest blade, and it seems non-sensical to spend an extra $700 for the superior dust extraction from the Kapex (which I'm thinking is the real break-through design feature - the other ones are improvements, but only incremental improvements).
Bones,
Festool, unlike Lie Nielsen, changes (improves) the design of their tools. I would guess that in a few years, they will turn out the Mark II version of the Kapex. It will be better and cost more, but you will be able to get the Mark I much cheaper at that time.
I work two days a week at a Woodcraft store. We had a backlog of people who got on the list to buy the Kapex months ago. Some of them have already come in and picked up their machines. The folks who do this are fans of Festool in the same sense that young women who used to scream, yell and faint when Frank Sinatra became a star. They feel a Magic in the air at the mention of the Festool name.
I believe that Festool is as good as it gets when it comes to doing great engineering, and checking out their new tools before putting them on the market, and at coming up with improved designs after the initial designs have been out for a while.
If you have the money to buy these tools, there is no reason not to. If I were Bill Gates, I would have one of each of the Festools, and maybe two of each. Heck, I might try to buy the company.
I hope you find some of these ideas useful, or at least entertaining.
Have fun. You cant take the money with you when you die, and you certainly don't want to leave it to your kids, because it will reduce their motivation to work hard and succeed on their own. SO BUY GOOD TOOLS.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619: I've read all the comments about the Festool and how expensive it is and so forth and your post makes sense. I remember years ago when GM and Ford and the rest of the US manufacturers made cars year after year that had little to offer in terms of style, reliability, and longevity. The CEO's of these companies made only what they could shove down our throats. Then guess what - along came Honda and Toyota and a few others and offered what the "big three" wouldn't offer - the most important thing being quality, reliability, and performance. If you are a race fan, look at Toyota eating the lunch of all the other manufacturers on the NASCAR circuit. With Festool, I think the niche they fill is the one created when many of us grew tired of buying that same crap made in China that essentially is built to NO QUALITY CONTROL STANDARDS other than those of "oh well, they'll buy it because it's cheap." Even Delta now has their stuff made in China and all I can say is - read the evaluations in ANY woodworking magazine on the market. The crap made in China simply doesn't measure up. Festool is made in Germany, where BMW, Mercedes, VW, and a few other very fine cars are made, all made to high standards like Festool is made. Certainly Festool KAPEX is pricey - so are German automobiles - but they beat the crap out of just about anything made in this country, or China! Certainly it is a matter of choice which machine to buy, but when I make a piece of furniture out of an expensive piece of wood, I would much rather have the quality of that piece limited by my own lack of skill or creativity, not because my machine could not cut a straight line or an angle that makes a nice neat tight joint. Lets not kid ourselves; we are all mostly amateur woodworkers but do we really like our finished product to look that way? Of course not. Sometimes I meet woodworkers who are blessed with the talent and experience to be able to overcome a particular machine's shortcomings; I envy those craftsmen. However, just as I would not look down on someone who buys a Mercedes or BMW, I would not look down on anyone who buys something less than Festool. In many ways, buying woodworking machinery is a lot like buying wine; if you are happy with the plain old swill, go for it. However, if you occassionally want a real treat, something truly satisfying, then go for the Festool - you'll be glad you did.
Waljay,
I agree with you completely. Well said.
Thanks for writing.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Certainly Festool KAPEX is pricey - so are German automobiles - but they beat the crap out of just about anything made in this country, or China! Certainly it is a matter of choice which machine to buy, but when I make a piece of furniture out of an expensive piece of wood, I would much rather have the quality of that piece limited by my own lack of skill or creativity, not because my machine could not cut a straight line or an angle that makes a nice neat tight joint. Lets not kid ourselves; we are all mostly amateur woodworkers but do we really like our finished product to look that way? Of course not.
While I agree with the gist of what you're saying. I disagree that this really applies to higher end woodworking tools. Most of the tools can do exactly the same thing, excluding of course the cheap hardware store knockoffs. For instance the Bosch has come up in this thread numerous times; at nearly half the price do you think it limits you in any way compared to the Kapex?
I think people should really approach tool purchases with a more economical view in mind. Buying the latest and greatest from Festool/Bosch/Makita etc... is just a bad way to spend money regardless of if you're a hobbiest or not. The best woodworkers I know all have high quality relaiable tools... but for the most part they're older machines that have served them reliably for a few years at the least.
This cycle of continually upgrading is really a sickness. We seem to believe that we can buy more skill. When in reality you hit a certain quality point (very quickly) where the tools are capable of more than you.
In many ways, buying woodworking machinery is a lot like buying wine; if you are happy with the plain old swill, go for it. However, if you occassionally want a real treat, something truly satisfying, then go for the Festool - you'll be glad you did.
I can agree with this, but realize that your buying these things more for the emotional value than for any real value in the tool (or in wine for that matter).
Continuing on your analogy of cars. My office neighbour drives an BMW M5, not a cheap car. While his car certainly drives better, and is more relaible than my Chevy Cavalier. Both do the same job with equal results. The difference of course is that his is more expensive to maintain and service. It may last longer as well... but I spent 4 times less on mine. Again the real value is an emotional one. I enjoy being a passenger in his car, he enjopys driving it. He has the money... so why not.
Buster,First of all, I am not a Festool man from the standpoint of being a groupie. My workshop is not gray & Green. But I am certainly curious as to why you feel the quality/price relationship applies to everything but higher end woodworking equipment. You stated " The best woodworkers I know all have high quality relaiable tools... but for the most part they're older machines". What about the people who have owned Festool for twenty years?If the Kapex lasts for 25 years, that's a capitalization cost of less than $5 per month. One measure of return on investment for tool purchases is how well they retain their value. I still have a hard time finding used Festool tools. People who buy them seldom sell them. I found a few used items, but they were selling for so close to the new price, that I would buy new.When I buy tools that I use more than occasionally, I try to make lifetime purchases. Festool tends to fit that criteria. Additionally, Festool told me they still stock replacement/repair parts for many tools they manufactured more than twenty years ago. Try that with a $100 Skill, PC, or Makita. I'm also curious about your claim that the capability of the tool exceeds the capability of the woodworker. Does this mean it makes cuts better (cleaner, to tighter tolerances, or whatever better means to you) than the woodworker could make without the saw? In sales, we discover the strong influence of emotional appeal in EVERY buying decision — a child wanting a meal at McDonalds, an engineer buying a pump, a woman buying perfume, a woodworker buying a saw. But I stiil don't agree with your premise that people are "buying these things more for the emotional value than for any real value in the tool". Since this is about the Festool Kapex, I can agree that there is a strong emotional factor, but I can not agree with the insinuation that the tool lacks real value.Lastly, your viewpoint "Buying the latest and greatest from Festool/Bosch/Makita etc... is just a bad way to spend money regardless of if you're a hobbiest or not" seems a difficult position to defend. Certainly budget has to be considered whether it is a business budget or personal budget. But like your conclusion about your friend being able to afford the BMW M5, as long as the woodworker (hobby or pro) can afford the Kapex, why is it a bad financial decision? How far does one go with the frugality option by claiming people really don't need the newer tools because of the price? Craftsmen created beautiful furniture hundreds and even thousands of years ago without any of the modern conveniences. Yet it is arguably easier and more pleasurable to do it with today's modern tools.Greg
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Well said Sir!
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Greg,
I'm not knocking Festool. Some of their tools are great, and worth every penny. I don't own any, but that's more of an issue of availability. Festool distribution is fairly poor in Canada.
The relationship between quality and price is tenuous at best. While quality does cost money, saying that something is better quality because it costs more is not supportable. Price/quality relationships do exist, but after a certain point it become a useless comparison. Most name brand tools exceed this point.
The value of a tool isn't some imaginary thing. In business, if a tool increases productivity or decreases running costs then it has a value. That value can be compared against cost. I fail to see how this tool does either over its top rated competitors at half the price. Making business decisions on emotion is financial suicide.
When it comes to hobbyists, we can allow emotion to guide our purposes. But should we? Being able to afford something is certainly different than something being a good financial decision, or even being a good value. I suppose owning a Kapex certainly brings some bragging rights... but does it do anything else? Emotional attachment aside, is a hobbyist going to get $1300 value out of a saw?
I'm also curious about your claim that the capability of the tool exceeds the capability of the woodworker.
This was a general statement about the culture of upgrading, not directly aimed at the Kapex. But I ask you. For most woodworkers you know does the Kapex do anything that a Bosch wouldn't do? Does it do anything so much better that it's worth twice the price?
Lastly, your viewpoint "Buying the latest and greatest from Festool/Bosch/Makita etc... is just a bad way to spend money regardless of if you're a hobbyist or not" seems a difficult position to defend.
Not at all. The statement was made from the perspective of continual upgrading and the economics of it. Economic questions should be made absent from emotion. Emotion is an extremely bad way to make financial decisions. In my real job every significant purchase is put though a spreadsheet which gauges the value. I have learned that no matter how much I like something it doesn't change the fact that it may be a poor value.How far does one go with the frugality option by claiming people really don't need the newer tools because of the price?
I would challenge you to find a single person who NEEDS a Kapex.
Its funny. Every truly financially successful person I know preaches frugality. On the flip side every person who's finances are sketchy preaches buying the best. They confuse needs with wants. They're struggling to keep up with the Jones's. But it turns out that the Jones's are in debt up to their eyeballs, and are on the verge of losing their house. But check out that fancy new Kapex in the garage.
For me, regardless of my bank balance, I've learned to be happy with what I have in my shop. I'd rather focus on putting out some work than what the newest tool from Festool is, or how great it is. My Dewalt is doing fine.
We all have mountains that prevent us from seeing past a certain point. Once you climb that mountain, you can see farther.I agree that purely emotional decisions are seldom economically sensible. However, from my sales training, I can assure you that nearly every purchase decision we make has a strong emotional component. As an engineer purchasing equipment for my employer, there is emotion involved even in pump and valve purchases. Who doesn't feel good about what they are buying? At times frugality feels good over everything else.I like the computerized router tables that remind me of a high tech runway. But at $2000 for a fully accessorized one, I personally don't see the value in it. Many people here would agree and choose to spend the $2000 on something else. Me too. Others do buy the system. A year ago I was considering a $2200 bandsaw and I got verbally pommelled in much the same way people are doing to those buying the Kapex.Much of the bling in power tools is aimed at the hobby woodworkers. I classify tools like the Jessem router tables as well-built but having bling. Some of the drill press table/fence systems and router table/fence systems fit in the same category. Similarly, a lot of the manufactured jigs also fit in here. I don't think the Kapex is aimed at amateurs. But I am glad we have the option to buy the very best made professional tools. Even if we never get a return on investment from what we build, used Festool with little use, in good shape is nearly as expensive as the new. I don't find this true for many other tool lines.While you think it wasteful to spend 2x what you paid for a Bosch that you claim is capable of creating the same quality cuts as the Kapex, others find it wasteful in buying a Bosch, spending 4x what they invested in the Skil Heavy Duty 10" Single-Bevel Laser Compound Miter Saw. Yet there is a market niche for each of these tools ($150, $650, $1300).Personally, I hope the Kapex sells better than anyone ever thought. That way, if I ever get a to a point that I NEED one, it will still be on the market.Greg
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Buster - While common, the philosophy expressed in your post about not buying high-end machines has some real downsides.
If no one appreciates high-end quality, the manufacturers will spend their deisgn efforts on ever cheaper machines, and I would suggest that this is not a good thing. It's a race to the bottom, and has resulted in competition on nothing but price.
It applies to more than just power tools, of course. There's a thread in "Hand Tools" on saw files where a member posted two pictures of Nicholson files, one made in the US, and one more recently made in Mexico. The Mexican one might be OK to sharpen lawnmower blades, but they'll never touch my woodworking saws.
What you're suggesting, by the way, also has a very strong emotional decision-making component. Some would call it the "cheap" impulse, though perhaps it's more polite to call it extreme frugality. The last paragraph of your post about the difference between a BMW M5 and a Chevy Cavalier is a great example of this philosophy, and I encounter it frequently. Proponents question expenditures on a luxury/sports car because in their view, they cannot understand any other purpose for a vehicle other than to get from point A to point B, and they're correct that a plain brown Honda Civic will accomplish that task on far less money than a Lexus.
But that isn't the point at all. A BMW M5 wasn't designed simply to get you from point A to point B, it was designed to get you from point A to point B mach schnelle, and in extreme luxury and safety while doing it. Its performance far outclasses a chevy cavalier, which is why some are willing to pay the high purchase price.
I would suggest that the same is true for those that are willing to pay for high-end woodworking tools, whether they be power tools or hand tools. While I don't own one (and cannot afford one), I don't make the mistake that some others do in suggesting that a Karl Holtey hand plane is an extravagant and wasteful expenditure of money. It's performance, fit and finish far outclass my Lie-Nielsens, though both accomplish the basic requirement of removing fine shavings from wood, and I don't begrudge those that are wealthy enough to own one.
you do make a good point about how tool designers spend their money: to make a great tool that will cost a pretty penny; or flood the market with crap. I'm guilty of buying the fine tools, even with a small need in some cases, and appreciate the money and expertise that went into designing and producing them.
I referenced price in my negative post as well. But I agree that isn't the point. I didn't see anything worthy of that price in the kapex. Not saying you are saying it's worth it. anyway, good post on your part.
My thoughts exactly. I bought a Kapex, and it is my first Festool purchase. I did not have a slider (and didn't "need" one, the way I need air, water and food), and I judged it the best available. Yes, it's incredibly expensive. But in the past I have bought tools that didn't last, and had to replace them, and in some cases replace the replacement. In each case I could have saved a lot of money by buying the higher grade tool to begin with. My second choice here was the Bosch slider. The Kapex was twice the money, but I know it isn't twice the saw. Is it ten or fifteen percent better? I think it is. Just as with cars, or anything else, once you reach a certain level of quality, you start paying a lot more money for smaller increases in quality. The BMW is a better car than a Chevy Cavalier, there is no question of that. It is not just extra window dressing designed to impress others -- there are real, measurable quality differences. Whether or not it makes economic sense depends on the individual.I drive a fifteen year old pickup truck that has seen much better days, and bought it (well) used. It does everything I need it to do, but the AC and radio don't work, it something pokes my butt through the worn out seat, and other issues too numerous to list. But my goal is transportation at the lowest possible cost. If your goal is cutting wood at the lowest possible cost, buy a used circular saw and a straightedge. I don't put money in cars, clothes etc, but don't mind at all buying quality, lifetime tools.
You make a good analogy. The post that called festool morons and said the economy could not handle the tool was amusing. They are making quality tools and you have to pay for that quality and attention to DC. They seem to have done well of going the opposite of lowcost disposable. The high quality & attention to DC has struck a market niche. Again as to price point, If it's not the individuals cup-o-tea, then there are cheaper alternatives. As to the economy, some segments are having problems, but some areas are not and some are doing well. I guess if you watch enough evening news or msnbc, its time to call it quits and head for the hills. Me I'll just keep plugging along. I'm still torn wether to invest in the uint. I have a large remodel to do and I have a hutch with some crown that I could use it for as well. Early reviews I'm reading has been very positive. I guess I compare it to buying a stanley plane or Lie-nielsen. I have some of both, but if I have a choice, I'll reach for the LN any day of the week. Have a good one!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
"a fool and his money are soon parted"
see post 42421.8Right on cue.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 7/6/2008 8:06 pm by PeterDurand
Hope the goverment does not come by and see all the tools sping because then I,ll get taxed.
Whats the point in buying those exspentive Festool .
"Whats the point in buying those exspentive Festool "
You have strong feelings both pro and con. I have some festtool stuff. I have the domino and the ct33e dust extractor. Festool is engineered very well. Secondly, dust collection is exceptional. The con side is they are expensive. So you have to make a value judgement of price point .vs. capabilities. No ifs ands or butts the Kapex is an excellent tool. Is it worth the difference of the competators. I will leave that to the individual to decide is it worth it. To each his own so to speak. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I am not sure which saw is better or if the Festool is worth the extra money on not, but apparently a lot of people think so. I stopped by my local Woodcraft for something else and ask about the Kpex. They have a demo provided Festool that they cannot sell. All the ones they got in for stock were pre-sold and they have a list of people waiting on them. Said it may be a couple of months before they work through the waiting list. <!----><!----><!---->
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I am sure after the initial demand is satisfied there will be plenty available but there must be quite a few people willing to pay the $1200 bucks for one. <!----><!---->
If you can get it for 1200 its a steal. The price is 1300USD. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
1200 1300 both are out of my price range so I guess I didn't pay a lot of attention.
I own one. Haven't used it much yet.
Let the abuse begin.
No abuse from me. Let us know how it works outside of the store demo.
Be patient. It will come. ;-)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
LOL.
Don't know if this topic is still about the original post, to which my answer would be: I went to a tool store sale recently, and was one of the first people there and the owner immediately rushed me over to the new kapex and proceeded to demo it. My first thought was that, damn, he must really be getting a good commission on these, because I hadn't asked for a demo of anything. Lots of cool adjustments, and look at this, and look at that. My second thought was, dang, this is all plastic. No thanks. Not that I was looking for a whatever this thing is. I came in to find a tri square and waterstone.
See, I told you it would come. It just took a day or so longer than I had anticipated. And it WILL go on, believe me. In the meantime, please do enjoy the tool with a knowing smile on your face.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Y,
I work at the Woodcraft in Springfield, Virginia. We have Kapexs sitting on the floor, waiting to be sold. If you are interested, let me know. Or you can just get into the Woodcraft website, and check into the Springfield, VA store website, and call or email the manager. Either way. By the way, I get nothing if you buy the machine, just the satisfaction of helping a fellow woodworker. I am retired and work there two days a week.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bones,
I think you make the distinguishing observation here. Festool's Dust Extractors, The Domino and perhaps the Rotex are revolutionary tools. Though expensive, they do offer a level of performance that can't be found elsewhere. The Kapex does not rise to that level.
There is a huge gap between the available shop vacs and the Festool Extractors. Whether you can afford one or not is the question but there is some value to buying up here. The same is true with the Rotex and there is nothing available like the Domino.
If I had a production situation, I'd consider a Domino. But for the amount of work I do, I can cut M&T where needed, so the Domino, though impressive, is not a value to me.
The Dust Extractor and Rotex are tools I am considering.
The Kapex does not represent a revolutionary tool in my opinion. It's Festool taking an opportunity to market a new tool to it's existing, and loyal, customer base. They are hoping the name Festool will be associated with an implied value. I think buyers - Festool loyalist or not - are smarter than that.
So, here's an idea: for those people who don't think the Kapex is worth the money, don't buy it.
Just a thought...
Edited 7/11/2008 9:25 am ET by baudi
Don't worry yourself, we won't. Comments and observations on the merits or lack there of are still interesting and welcome.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
So, here's an idea: for those people who don't think the Kapex is worth the money, don't buy it.
Just a thought...
Does the extension of that thought imply that there is no need for discussion? No need for this website? No need for a community of woodworkers to have a little voice in things?
Nope. Just wondering why so many people feel so strongly about a tool they don't own and don't intend to buy. Seems a little odd, that's all.
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