Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 12, 2005 04:47am | #1

   Tough question.  I think you'd have to experiment with the wood you are using to see about the springback.  Perhaps that's why Steve Latta uses the bricklaid method.   Ought to be able to be done with laminations, though it would take a bunch of layers to end up with a 1 1/4" thick arch.  Neet table though. 

1. 
   BG | Nov 12, 2005 01:59pm | #4

   Steve,
   I'm actually going to do both methods..bricklaid and lamination.
   I was watching Norm this week and he did the Federal Table apron with lamination(poplar)...segmented into 90 degree sweeps and M&T joinery to the legs.
   What I'm most curious about is comparing Steve's method with Norm's( not in any scientific sense)...how well the legs joinery fits and the overall strength of the apron with the two different methods.

2. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Nov 12, 2005 04:53am | #2

   There's less springback if you use more laminates.  When you get up to seven layers, the springback is very small.

   Yes, you can make the outer laminate from your show wood.

1. 
   BG | Nov 12, 2005 02:15pm | #5

   Buxton,
   "There's less springback if you use more laminates"...that is good to know, thanks. To achieve any where near an 1 1/4" thickness I'm sure at least 7 or more laminates will be required....the question will be how many I can bend at 1/8" thickness.

3. 
   rpholland | Nov 12, 2005 06:34am | #3

   I made an apron for the lower leg portion of a dining table, four ninty degree segments, about 22" diameter. Kind of like a connecting ring. I tried both the segmented block method and lamination method and found the lamination quicker. I used 1/16" poplar veneer with 1/16" mahogany veneer for the outer sheets. Total thickness 3/4". I made a plywood form and used a vacuum press. I used the two part urea resin glue and had nearly zero spring back.

   Robert

1. 
   BG | Nov 12, 2005 02:38pm | #6

   rpholland,
   I'm planning to laminate the 180 degree in one sweep about 50+ inches long..using a ply form and two part epoxy. Then I'll make a decision relative to the leg joinery...cut in segments and M&T or leave in tact and do bridal joints. From your experience, do you see anything wrong or especially challenging with this approach? thanks

   Edited 11/12/2005 9:59 am ET by BG

1. 
   John_D | Nov 12, 2005 09:26pm | #7

   bridal joints

   I assume this is to be painted white? <g>

2. 
   eddiefromaustralia | Nov 12, 2005 10:42pm | #8

   BG,

   Bridle joints are the traditional method, no need to go to the extremes of a dovetail keyed joint as shown in the article.

   The apron made from bricklaid blocks is the way I do this, and teach 15y.o. when they do a complex curve as a jewellery box.

   Yes, you could easily make it also as a laminated construction.  You'll need a glue with zero creep (urea formaldehyde was a glue of choice, but now that formaldehyde's been declared a carcinogen, I'm wary of using it myself and recommending it to others.  Perhaps a crosslink PVA or hide glue).  Edit - I note you're using epoxy.

   I'd make the former about 1" smaller radius at a guess - it's a bit academic as you'll be pegging the curve to the correct shape with the rear legs that are joined by the back rail.

   Cheers,

   Andrew

   Edited 11/12/2005 2:45 pm by eddiefromAustralia

1. 
   BG | Nov 13, 2005 01:26am | #10

   Eddie,"I'd make the former about 1" smaller radius at a guess "...
   Your in good company Eddie, that's the same thing E. Joyce said..take a guess...it's a crap shoot...lol. As you suggest, it really only matters if I do the M&T anyhow.

1. 
   joinerswork | Nov 13, 2005 06:09pm | #14

   BG,

   If you aren't totally committed to tradition, you could also consider using bending plywood, aka "bendyboard" or "wackywood".  Three 3/8" laminates yields a 1-1/8" thick apron, very rigid, no springback.  Cover the bottom edge with cockbead and no one will know it's plywood.

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

2. 
   BG | Nov 13, 2005 07:12pm | #15

   Joinerswork,
   As much as anything else, I'm finding a purpose for a 4x5" piece of poplar that I resawed into 15 3/16" strips...I'll only use a portion of these strips. The "wacky" would make it real easy....nice to have a backup.
   Tell me about the cockbead...that sounds real nice. Would it be a seperate strip attached to the bottom??...or if I use mahogany for the outer laminate, put the bead on bottom of that piece? I don't have the magazine in front of me, but I think there is a bead on both top and bottom of the table top...so one on the apron would look very nice.Edited 11/13/2005 11:13 am ET by BG

   Edited 11/13/2005 11:15 am ET by BG

3. 
   joinerswork | Nov 15, 2005 12:50am | #16

   BG,

   The cockbead usually will cover the full thickness of the apron's edge.  The idea was I think, twofold: first, to protect the fragile edge of the veneered surface, and 2dly to disguise the fact that veneer was used.

   Generally it's about 1/8" thick, but have seen cockbead as thin as 1/16, and thick as 1/4".

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

3. 
   rpholland | Nov 13, 2005 01:16am | #9

   Make all of your strips a little bit wider than needed and trim or plane to final width after glue up. Do a dry run first to make sure you have enough clamps and everything works. Robert

1. 
   BG | Nov 13, 2005 01:42am | #11

   rpholland,
   Yup, lots of dry runs. The epoxy will give me plenty of open time. I want to make sure I don't introduce any twist in the clamp up...thinking about shaping some cauls full width to help...

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Nov 13, 2005 03:35am | #12

   If you're going to use mechanical clamps to pull the laminates around the form, full-width cauls help keep the glue line thin near the edges.   If you put uncauled pipe clamps or C-clamps in the middle of the laminate stack, you get a thin glue line in the middle.  However, the edges of the laminate still try to be straight.  The result is that the glue line at the edges is thicker than you might want.

   Also, in bent laminations, always make the laminates big, glue the blank together, and trim the composite down to the correct size.   Glue-lubricated laminates squooge around, and it is almost impossible to keep them exactly aligned.

2. 
   BG | Nov 13, 2005 06:03am | #13

   Buxton,
   Making a full sized caul should be the by product of the bricklayed approach to the apron building....which I can then use on the laminate apron building. If I can just build a nice jig for the BS that allows me two nice clean cuts on the glued up stock...

4. 
   charlesstanford | Nov 15, 2005 01:13am | #17

   What would it take to talk you into doing it exactly as described in the magazine? 

   Bricklaid construction is traditional, bulletproof, and results in no spring-back.

1. 
   BG | Nov 15, 2005 05:25am | #18

   charlesstanford,
   I'm going to do it like the magazine...bricklaid construction. However, I'm going to widen the stock that I use for the bricklaid and use the cutout scrap as a caul for laminating the strips....so I'll have two bases: one bricklaid, one laminated...or at least that's the plan. I'm loaded with poplar, unfortunately my mahognay is quite limited...so only one will get legs but on it for right now...

1. 
   TTalma | Nov 15, 2005 07:07pm | #19

   I have done it both ways I am in the process of building a card table similar to steve's. (In fact I'm taking a class at the Olde mill Cabinet shop with him and got to see the table in FWW while it was being built)

   I can answer some of the questions above.

   1. The reason for bricklaying as opposed to laminate strips on period card tables. When they built the tables there was simply less wood to cut when making a bricklay and the builders often used scraps. Steve's tables have nice consistent bricklays, but he said this is not true in most period pieces.

   Also the bricklays are really fast. In class we were easily able to get the whole thing glued up and shaped in one day.

   2. Veneering the mahogany on the outside is no problem just use a good glue that doesn't creep. I prefer hot hide glue with hammer veneering my self since you can work the wood within an hour after veneering it.

   3. the reason for the dovetails is it makes the joint edge look cleaner. It's a pain to make a square mortise on a curved surface. So the dovetail hides the edge and makes it look nicer.

   But Steve's main reason for doing this is because he has repaired many tables, and he has never had to repair the face veneer on a table made with the dovetails.

   4. I don't think you'll be able to use the bricklay as a caul. Unless that's the only reason for making the bricklay. The reason is that the bricklay will have a different diameter than the laminated piece. The outside diameter of the bricklay will be the inside diameter of the laminate. Also you have to remove the amount of wood you are laminating not just cutting a curve through the center, otherwise you will have inconsistent pressure on the laminates.

   If you are making a 3/4" apron you need to remove 3/4" of material. The easiest way to do this would be to take a piece of MDF and use a circle cutter with a 3/4" bit in your router and make the arc.

   Having done both I would only do the laminates if the edge was showing. But really either work fine.

   The pictures are of the two tables I made the card table and the sofa table:

   The corners on the sofa table are laminated.

   
1. 
   BG | Nov 16, 2005 03:51am | #20

   TTalma,
   Great insites and suggestions, you've given me much to think about. You did a wonderful job on those tables...I especially like the lines of the hall table...very elegant.
   One point, I wasn't going to use the bricklay as a caul. I was going to cut out the bricklay on the bandsaw..outer first, inner second and use the waste from both sides of the bricklay as cauls for the lamination.
   It's really great hearing from someone that was there....