Folks, I’m about to build a door. An exterior, front door for my new home. I’m a furniture maker by trade and since this is a bit out of my comfort zone I wanted to get some advice from the experts before I build myself into a corner. I want to build the door and frame in mahogany. It will have lights, probably some type of custom leaded glass and it might even have an arched top. There will also be one separate side light. I haven’t finished the design yet but I’ll need to provide the contractor with at least the frame soon so as not to slow down the stucco and drywall guys.
I can probably figure out the casing profile from looking at other doors but I’m sure there are quirks and tricks that would be very helpful to know. Like: should the top of the casing sit on top of the uprights or between them like a normal rail and stile configuration? Same for the threshold. Should the door frame members (rails and stiles) be cut from solid stock finished to 1 3/4 (or whatever) or should they be laminated front and back from two pieces of 7/8 for better warp control? Is wood movement more of a concern than in furniture (I live in No. Calif, inland about 2500′ elevation).
I think this explains the type of info/help I’m looking for. Please, any help or guidance would be very much appreciated.
Jeff
Replies
I have been thinking of replacing my front entry door with a door that Home Depot sells for $2500. The woodworker in me thinks that is the most horrific thing to do would be to BUY one. So over the last couple of years I have been paying particular attention to the construction of these doors. Now, I have not built one yet, so some of this is only speculation. But I have built windows. Reader be warned, per se.
I completely empathize with your concern over the difference between furniture and door construction. Most furniture components are connected to adjacent component via more than one edge. However, it doesn't seem to me that it is all that much different that a door on a cabinet or other piece of furniture. The only difference is the size. Maybe one of the pros here that has made doors before can correct me on this.
As far as the solid vs. laminated stiles and rails, I have never seen a manufactured door that was made out of laminated components. What comes to mind is the moisture content. I know it goes without saying that we should all be aware of the moisture content of the wood we are working,regardless of the project, but it seems to me that it would be very critical on a large door. This door is going to be exposed to the elements on one side (mainly temperature due to moisture protection of finish) while only exposed to a climate controlled environment on the other side. Even though the manufacturers use solid wood for the stiles and rails, I can't help to think that laminating two pieces (with growth rings opposed) would produce a more stable workpeice. Maybe they use solid wood to reduce costs.
Also, the prehung, manufactured doors have varying spacing between the door and the jams. I have measured from 1/16" to 1/4" gap on the same model door, side by side on the rack. Since I would think the amount of expansion and shrinkage of mahogany is predictable, then maybe someone as a formula handy so we could calculate the minimum gap required so it doesn't hang in the summer or allow drafts in the winter.
As stated above, I have made windows from white oak for my house and found that many coats (I used 6 coats) of a good quality marine spar varnish was best suited for my needs. What I did not like about it was that it was a high gloss. I later learned that the sheen could be modified with additives, but that was only in my readings, I have no practical experience with additives. Perhaps that one novice guy, some people call him Bob Flexnor, could give a bit of advice, not that we would want to listen to THAT newbie. :o)
I also read later that applying a coat of wax to the finish on a regular basis provided an additional amount of protection.
Hope this helps.
-Del
Del,
just do it.
At least that's the approach I'm taking. I'm gonna build the entry doors for my timberframe. Two 8 foot high by 3 foot wide made from Black walnut. They will use 4 inch thick timbers. I know that most doors wind up using 2 inch stuff, but as most will tell you I'm wacky. (besides the entry timbers are 18 inch thick x 6 or 8 inch wide, so it would look funny with anything less....)
Hi Jeff,
I'm sure you'll do a fine job building the doors since you're a furniture maker.
One thing I would consider is the weather stripping.
This company sells seals and specialized tools for installing them. You might want to check them out.
Resource Conservation Technology Inc.
2633 North Calvert Street
Baltimore, MD 21218
USA
tel: 410-366-1146
fax: 410-366-1202
Regards,
Tom
The real problem with exterior doors is water and sun. Panel doors suck up water like crazy, and if you use a darker wood and it gets exposed to western, afternoon sun, it then gets very hot and the little mushrooms start growing. As I go around my neighborhood, I see all these expensive wood doors in various states of degradation. No one has yet figured out how to make a panel and frame door that will withstand the elements. Carved solid doors don't seem to fare any better. So hopefully, if you go to all that trouble, your beautiful door will be shielded from sun and rain?
I once had a house with six varnished fir french doors. My God! what a disaster. Even after putting up awnings, the mold and mildew ate the finish off within a year. I'm ready for solid stainless steel doors!
I just about agree with you. I have had some luck with storm doors of Catalpa and Spanish Ceder. Finished with just linseed oil and glob of spar varnish. However, I take them down every year and wash them with soap and bleach, and re-apply the finish after a light sanding.
Jeff -
Take a look at these guys portfolio. Might give you some ideas. http://www.doorsandaccessories.com/
Also, they use Titebond II glue and Deft Poly with ultra violet blockers. They use 3/4" dowels to affix each cross member to the side members (as well as the rail and stile cut). I've had one of their leaded glass doors for 5 years and it still looks like new. Which ain't bad for Houston!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
As far as the door goes, standard cabinet door construction(rails butt into stiles) is the norm. Working from 8/4 stock, flatten and straighten the members as you would any cabinet components. There's a couple ways to join them. If there is no inside profile, either M&T joints or dowel joints will work. I always use epoxy . If you are using M&T, the lower rail, which is generaly from 8-12" wide should have multiple tenons bridged by stub tenoning, the same for the lock rail, which is generaly 6-10" wide. The other members(top rail, stiles) are usually 4-3/4-5-1/2" to accomodate typical door hardware. If you are going to cope&stick the door with a profile inside, a good bet to strengthen the door is to first dowel the joints(I use 3/4"x6") then cut the profile with router table or shaper. Any solid wood panels should be two piece(inside&outside)seperated by some form of barrier(I use wax paper). This lets the seperate panels go their own way without detrimental effects. The exterior casing, if it is to be butt jointed, should be top casing over side casing, semi-preventing water from creeping into the joint. If there is a profile, then mitre them, but caulk the joint when you put it together. HTH
You might try C. John Hebert; he can be contacted on his website above, or over on The Oak bbs. He just uploaded this picture recently together with progress shots; he seems to be friendly with advice.
View Image
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Ok Jeff I will try to be brief.(yeah right)
You should laminate your your stiles but not with two pieces but two skins and a core that has mahogany edges. You can lay up staves for the core or use 7 or 11 ply plywood, either one will do a lot toward keeping the stiles straight and the door flat. Your rails can be out of 8/4 they are usually short enough not to cause problems. A little was said about joinery and I will flat out state that the accuracy of the final product depends on how well the stock is prepared and the tolerances of your joinery There is no room for loose fitting joints. It will haunt you for all time. Cope and stick joints need to fit like a glove and accurate dowel placement will make a truly sturdy door. Forget the epoxy and or gorrilla glue for this door. Titebond II is fine for all stages of the project. I only use gorrilla glue on very oily wood like cedar. Don't waste your money.
Doing the arch is always a nice touch and I would encourage you to do so. If you do make the head 1 to 2"wider than your finshed size and make 2 Sticking cuts. By doing so you can then cut the first sticking cut off carefully just behind the sticking and have the radiused piece to set your glass with after the door is assembled and you clean out the opening for your glass. If you are careful with this cut you should only have to sand a bit off the back to clean up the saw marks and have a perfect piece to glaze in your glass.
As to your frame I feel that the legs should be rabbeted on the top and the bottomfor the head and sill. It seems to be easier to cut the head and sill to the proper width to accomadate the door. As to margins I use the standard nickle fit which is 3/32 reveal on the two sides and the top of the door. It seems to create the most pleasing reveal. Also don't forget the head, sweep and sill when you calculate the door into the rough opening - it adds to the height and you don't need to cut off the bottom of the door after it is finished.
You did not say if the sidelite was part of the unit or separate. You need to address this now because it will affect the rough opening and how large the sidelite glass can be. I generally build the unit intregal so the lite is as large as possible. The process is quite different than I described above and would take a different strategy all together.
Last piece of advice-finish each and every surface on the door This is the single biggest reason for failure in exterior doors The second is not keeping up the finish. Every other failure pales in comparasion to these two.
One more thing you should know - my schedule allows me to build one door of medium complexity (2-6 panels and or glass with one arched head prehung in a custom frame with all lock preps and glazed if needed in about 14 hours). I do not prefinish the doors I build. I do not have the where with all nor the time to finish doors. I sand all units to 120 and let others do the final sanding to their satisfaction. I just let the finisher or contractor know that this is a part of the warranty and that all edges and faces are finished equally and within 30 days of delevery in order for me to stand behind the warranty. I have very little to do after these doors are delivered to the customer.
I didn't address climate issues but suffice it to say that doors and windows are the most abused units in a structure They must keep the enviroment out and function flawlessly at the same time. That is a tall order but an attainable one Good luck Joe
I would like additional information about the plywood core styles. How is the style constructed? How is the style joined to the rails? I'm not clear on what the edge of the style looks like.
Well I wil try to describe one
I generally take a piece of 3/4 Plywood and rip it so that the core of plywood and wood edges are 3/8" wider than the finished width of the stile with sticking. I use plywood with at least 7 plys (B/B) and add 2 pieces of the lumber I am using for the door. Let's say mahogony.
these pieces are ripped at least 3/4" wide out of 15/ 16" material prior to sizing If the wood is wide enough I take the pieces right off the edges of the board I intend to use for the stile skins. Then I take the 15/16" and flatten and plane it to 13/16" so that a bit of the material overhangs the edges of the plywood and glue them to the edge of the plywood . Then I just size the mahogony down to the thickness I want the door to end up at I generally can build door with a thickness of 1 3/4 to 2/1/4 " thick and tend to stay a bit thicker ( around 2" just to save some planing time but I do whatever is needed. By now the gluee has cured enough to run the cores through the planer. I have built a sled that has 4 dadoes in it with a 2 flats of 3" in between so the plywood runs on the flats. I insert this into the planer and take very fine cuts until iI have one face flat enough to pull the sled and then flip the cores over and plane the other side. This seems to make the cores end up at about 11/16 " and if you have been careful all 7 plys shoud be intact albeit a bit thinner. Then it is just a matter of laminating the 3 pieces together. Glue up using lots of clamps and fairly substancial cauls or a vacumm press if you have one. I then work on rail and panel parts while the stiles cure. When they come out of the clamps I just need to finish size them keeping the skins equal by runing one sie then flipping the stile over after each pass until I match my rail parts thickness and start shaping. I have had a few fail to stay straight usually because the skins have really wild grain or I didn' orient thte grains so the centers opposed each other. Ther are other ways of doing this and I usually suggest that if you don't have access to the tools I listed you are probably better off building lumber cores even though the take the same amount of work.
As an aside to an earlier comment saying that he had not seen core or laminated stiles I am presently prehanging a five door accordian or folding unit using high end manufactured pre finished units. I have to rabbet each door unit on opposite sides to make the unit capable of being weather tight. I discovered that the core is made up using finger jointed material to make the cores in their units and they are as straight as any that I build. I know of two or three more manufacturers doing similar things to stiles so I doubt if what I do is out of the ordinary any more
As to joinery I use cope and stick pattern sets that make matched toungue and grooves and molded sticking all in two cuts (one for the cope one for the sticking) to make the rail and stile joints and then dowel the rails to the stiles These cutter sets are designed for shapers and are not cheap ($1000+ per set but I pay for them fairly quick). You can accomplish the same thing using a dado set on a table saw but it will lack the sticking which you can miter and apply after you construct the door. Be sure to glue all applied sticking to the rails and stiles on the exterior side of the door and around a your panels on the inside For glass glaze the units and miter the sticking but just nail in place so you can reset a piece of broken glass in the future.
Hope this helps Joe
Edited 7/21/2002 10:48:21 PM ET by JOEGROUT
Thanks for the details.
Jeff
I have built exterior doors and used my standard cabinet and door shaper tooling for the styles and rails, added mortise and tennons on the joints by mortising out both sides with a router then adding a large spline. It worked well and was fast.
The one comment about using Titebond II glue is bad advise, its easy, but over time it will sag. It does not take a heavy door either. I built a screen door out of clear pine and in two years it had sagged out of square. You could see the joints opening, even with large mortise and tennor joints. It might have worked if they were pinned. The door did not get wet and I live in the desert.
I took a class at one of the woodworking shows a few years ago from a guy who builds custom doors somewhere in California. He uses the two part glues, and warned me not to use any of the yellow or white glues because they creap, I just did not believe him. I have since learned that they are not a structural glue due to that fact.
His choise of wood was Mahogonay, Douglas Fir, Pine, but never ever Oak on an exterior door due to its movement. However he did say that he had used it on the inside as a sandwich with insulation board between, fir or Mahogany on the exterior.
I have a couple books on door making that give both the basic of design and many custom methods. I am sure they are available at most of the book sellers.
Curt
look to the marine industry for tips on weathering. Consider skimming the door with epoxy (west system, system 3 etc) then putting a coat of marine-grade high quality spar varnish.
I agree about glues like Tightbond, I only trust two part epoxy which I learned about working on boats. I still don't rely only on the glue surface supplied by cope&stick joinery, but dowel the joints before shaping. this produces a very strong door, none of which I have heard of sagging.
Funny thing is that the shop I'm in builds about 800- 900 doors per year and have never had a sagging or other wise failed door because of Titebond II. To each his own :-) Joe
Joe
Are your doors inside or outside? My problem door was an exterior door and subject to temp. from a -20 to 90. It was possible that my joints were not a tight as they could have been. I presume you are set up to make a much better mortise and tennon. I really fought that using a jig and a router and then a jig and my old shop smith with a long mortise bit. I know that they were never perfect.
Curt
Curt
We do both interior and exterior doors. I primarily do the entry units and we have great success with Tightbond II As I said earlier finish is the single most important consideration with any door. I won't recomend finishes here too great of a trap (look at he response to my T II comments)
Yes our joinery is very tight. Anything that is loose enough to insert a .005" feeler gauge into is too loose. Same with dowels , it is too easy to make things sloppy if you are not careful.
As to temperture extremes most of our doors are being installed in the mountian resorts of western Colorado and I can attest that -30 to over 100 degrees is commonplace for many of these doors. They are withstanding time and the elements very well. Joe
Joe
I certainly will bow to your knowledge and experience when it comes to doors.
I am in Central Oregon and I can assure you that I did not get my joints that tight. When you only build one of a kind and then on a few, I did not make a jig to hold the parts as well as I could. That may have been one of the reasons the guy was suggesting the Urea or the Ressorcinal based glues which tend to have a bit more gap filling ability. My first efforts made use of a router. The later ones used a shaper with power feed, a mortiser set up on an old shopsmith. It was only the first door that seemed to sag. The last one got stolen off the house. I had it leased and apparently one of the tenants friends liked it and somehow had access to the home and knew it was just vacated. I am still looking for that door, not another like it and I see a lot of homes in my work. Someday maybe.
What kind of wood do you usually use? or prefer?
Sorry about any flack you might have gotten on Titebond II glue. I hope I was not the cause of it. I like the product and use it almost exclusively.
I am not a full time woodworker, just a hobbist that has collected a lot of tools over the years and love trying some new things.
I have 4 clear fine grain Douglas fir 4x6 x 8' and a stack of clear fir 3/4, 5/8 and 3/8 6' x 6" boards all nice narrow grain that need to go into a new front door, ..someday!
Curt
Our cabin door is of 2x6 t&g cedar planks- My wife likes it, but wants a window in it- It's hung there for over 20 years and to my knowledge hasn't tweaked- Is it out of the realm of reason to cut a hole & stick a window in it?
Tell her BEARS can break the window and get in!
I'd take her to dinner and tell her ya already spent the money on the dinner and tip!
thanks-
Is it out of the realm to do it?No, but is it wise?I suppose that if you constructed a frame to insert into the opening with the glass in it and then framed the entire perimeter with a fairly substancial molding, you would be fine. Tempered glass is the norm, but you may want to consider safety plate (auto windshield) glass due to the bears. Glass companies will build insulated glass units with safety glass if you specify it. A 2x6 door is sort of thin to work with and in this instance, the frame and overlaid molding to hold it in place is more for security (from the bears) than anything else. if you use 2 1/4" pieces of glass and a 1/4" spacer bar, you have 3/4" in glass. and 3/8 on each side to build out. by dadoing the glass frame out of 1 1/2" stock and making it removable you would be able to repair it should the need arise HTH Joe
Joe- I'm not completely together with "the bears"- Are you referring to exposure to normal traffic stresses, burglars, or what? I'd thought to use a vinyl framed double pane (insulated) window, of the sort I installed in our exterior walls when I built the place, but hadn't thought about safety glass- Thanks for your thoughts re construction- Dave
Dave,Ignore the comments about the safety glass, I was trying to play on the humor of another poster. But because this fourm doesn't use UBB code I forget that expanding humor is not a choice here I would still use the frame though, and molding to hold it due to the door thickness and the fact that opening for the glass needs float room ( for expansion/contraction). and it would look much nicer if the unit molding matched the rest of the door.It would seem to be a shame to look at that nice door and see a vinyl molding holding it in place. Joe
Joe- Thanks, and sure, I'd secure the window box in the door and cover the frame with molding- Is the cedar going to expand & contract much?
well, I am not sure what your climate is like. I think at the very least, I would allow 1/16" top and bottom, and 3/32" side to side. and I would use the same for the glass just because it is cedar.
Joe- Thanks for letting me wring you out- Much obliged- Dave
Curt
A glue rep told me that Gorrilla glue a great glue for doors. What do you think? I'm sure its better that the yellow or white glues, but is it that much better. What is the name of a two part glue that you would use for making doors?
Curt what books do you have?
Terry
The two books I have are:
Doormaking Patterns & Ideas by John Birchard. Sterling Publishing Co. Inc. New York
Handcrafted Doors and Windows by Amy Saffarano Rowland, Rodale Press that book also has a list of custom door crafters.
The Birchard book is much more informative as to construction and finish. It has a lot of information about hanging, door frame etc.. He also discusses the various woods and finishes.
The glues that I was refering to.
1. Weldwood makes one, and the half full can I have is by WilHold called a marine grade plastic resin. Its light colored and is mixed with water. It is a urea glue, claims to be water proof.
2. The other is a Resorcinol , which recommened by Rowland for exterior doords, it comes with a can of dry powder and a can of very dark red solution. When mixed it is very dark red. I know that one of the cans I had was made by Elmers.
I really think that pining the joints would be a big help.
Joe indicated that he produces a lot of doors using Titebond II without a problem. It it likely due to a lot tigher joints than I was able to make using the floating splines. I was only pointing out what I was told and my own experience. I was speaking of an exterior door, perhaps his were interrior.
It may depend on the type of door you make and whether its inside or ourside. The guy that gave the class built a lot of entry doors.
It sounds like a fun project.
Curt
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