So the recent post about N.A. vs. Euro/UK woodworking got me wondering what the standard practices are across the Atlantic (or elsewhere) for cutting dado’s.
It seems dado stacks on table saws aren’t the standard. I can’t imagine everyone uses routers and t-square jigs.
So whats the “normal” way overseas?
Just curious and always willing to rethink my practices.
Replies
Hi,
Honestly from what I've seen here in Israel Dadoes aren't often used at all, or on rare occasion.
Most cabinetry is put together with but joints and some sort of fastener, wether it be screws staples or brads is mostly a mater of choice.
There isn't a lot of fine furniture built for the local market here as its mostly imports from overseas.
perhaps David Ring will chime in and enlighten us some more as I am kind of new to the woodworking scene.
Chaim
Router and a straight edge clamped across the board; or pass smaller pieces across the router table and agin the fence. I like to use a doen-cut spiral bit for clean corners. This method allows any width/depth of groove (dado) with multiple passes. Also sliding dovetail housings can be made if one employs a DT bit.
For housing joints across a long narrow piece, I do "pretend dado cutter" on the TS - several passes over a standard 3.2mm blade using the sliding table and cross cut fence with it's micro-adjust to get housing joints that fit as tight as a chicken's top lip. Also, use of a flat top 80 tooth blade gives very clean and flat-bottomed housings.
I wouldn't want to be messing about changing and setting all those dado blade things, especially as many don't give a flat bottomed groove. Also, I hear they bite as there is no riving knife and big boards, especially, might well rotate on the table. Mind, it would be safer if you all had sliding cross-cut carriages on those unisaw things instead of them wobbly mitre gauges in a sloppy groove. :-)
Lataxe
I use an adjustable router jig. It has to be made for a particular bit and either a particular router or a particular bush.
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The great advantage (apart from the safety aspect) is that the housing (dado) is EXACTLY the right size, no matter what the thickness of the shelf or whatever it is, because the setup relies on the workpiece itself for its size:
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and this is the result:
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I'm sorry I don't appear to have a photo of it actually in use, but I hope you get the picture. I have the job done in less time than it takes to change the dado blade, and I can still count to ten without taking off my socks.
Cheers
Steve
Space is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com
Edited 2/12/2009 3:29 am by Steve Maskery
I agree with Steve on this. I've built and helped build a few of these selfclamping jigs. I have one for 3/8" bit and another for 1/2" bit. Also, they cut very nice, long sliding DT grooves with appropriate bushings and spreading one end slightly if desired.
View Image
Wait a minute, wait minute, the point here was a comparison between general practices in woodworking in the the US and Europe with the dado cutter as an example to illustrate that in the US the standard way of cutting a groove is something other than what it is in Europe. It's an interesting premise if it can be stuck to. The point is not how many different ways and set-ups there are for cutting a grove. And I don't see these routers and jigs as standard practice, I see them as aberrant behavior. Or am I mistaken?Don
Edited 2/12/2009 1:55 pm by DonaldHWagstaff
You are mistaken.Dado and rabbet (we call it a housing and a rebate) are not anywhere near as common joinery practices over here as in the US, because tablesaw dado heads are not widely available. So when we do want a housing, the router is the most common tool to use. There are different jigs with which to use it, but a router is the standard tool.It's faster cheaper and easier, unless yo have dozens to do.I do use a dao head (but not for cutting dadoes) and I am in a small minority. Indeed, our saws are supplied with a short arbor to try to stop me from using one at all.Cheers
Steve
Space is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com
Yes, my point was to just see how other parts of the world approach an operation that is automatically a table saw operation with a dado stack to most in North America, USA at least.But I do appreciate seeing others techniques. Its food for thought.Funny thing is that I was taught that a dado stack on a table saw is relatively safe since the blade is not exposed so I was surprised to learn it seems to have a bad reputation in Europe. I now see the Euro perspective as well founded but am not ready to get rid of my dado stack, especially since I have a Saw Stop.However a couple of the jigs I've seen would potentially save some setup time. And I'm all for streamlining things in my little Swiss-Army shop.
"I don't see these routers and jigs as standard practice, I see them as aberrant behavior. Or am I mistaken?Don"
Yes, you are mistaken Don. Hand held routers and straight edges or other guiding devices such as the side fence, T squares and jigs along the lines steve Maskery illustrated are absolutely normal practice for creating grooves, tongues, housings, slots, trenches, dovetail housings and trenches, stopped housings and grooves and rebates amongst us Europeans.
additional standard tools for doing the same tasks include: inverted hand held routers and their fences, fixed overhead routers and their fences and spindle moulders.
The only place you'll find a dado blade in a professional workshop is on a radial arm saw. Amateurs and single person woodworking businesses are the only place you are likely to see a dado blade mounted on a table saw in the UK. These workers get around the legal requirements by buying imported non CE certified saws from the US that don't meet European safety standards.
Having said that, recently a couple or three European saw makers have begun offering a slim fixed width slotting cutter similar to a dado blade. I just don't recall the name of those manufacturers right now. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
That is interesting. The Felder Dado head that is certified in Europe must be relatively new.
Brad
I am either not coming over clearly or you missed or misread what I wrote earlier. But for further clarity: In the late '90s I attended furniture making school for three years in Amsterdam. As part of my schooling I served a half year apprenticeship in the US where I visited James Krenov and was blown away by the work at his school and by these largely West coats furniture makers. Afterward I set up a workshop at my house in the north of Holland and began furniture making along with restoring two houses. Oh yes, going back even further, I am an American as that is where I was born and lived for 33 years but for the past twelve I've been living, as I say, here in Holland.
I understand the place dadoes have both here, In Europe, and in the US. On top of that the rabbet/ rebate distinction is clear to me but I prefer to avoid jargon and just say groove.
Let me be clear about the router. I have one and I use it, although reluctantly. I enjoy neither the noise nor the uncertainty of it. And I stick by my claim that although routers are ubiquitous here, and becoming ever more so, I don't see them as part of a European furniture making tradition. The shaper, in its various forms is the reference point here in terms of European standard practices. Routers were always more widely used in the US and like so many other things, (McDonalds) have become widely accepted here and in that way are in fact aberrant.Don
Edited 2/12/2009 6:25 pm by DonaldHWagstaff
Donald, I seldom mis-read what posters here say, and I certainly didn't mis-read what you said. I am however aware that your use of terms of the trade is confused.
For instance, a groove is not the same thing as either a rabbet or a rebate no matter which side of the Atlantic you hail from. You are correct in saying that electric routers are not part of the European 'tradition'. For that matter they are not part of the American 'tradition' either.
The question I suppose is, "What do you mean by traditional?" Perhaps three hundred years ago should be set as the cut off point, and every new technique or practice developed since then should be deemed modern and non-traditional; or maybe we should describe as new and non-traditional techniques that have developed since those that were contemporary 1000 years ago?
Woodworking techniques evolve and most of us have taken to using the electric router for a vast number of tasks simply because they are so convenient, save time and help us turn a profit. Certainly when I started my training as a wet-behind-the-ears daft laddie in the early 1970s here in Great Britain electric routers were very well established as common-or-garden tools in furniture workshops, and had been growing in popularity and use for many years, decades even, before that.
I don't understand your assertion that the spindle moulder (shaper) is the reference point. Reference to what? The ability to run grooves and rebates? Perhaps it's the reference to creating mouldings and profiles, or even to mould and shape compound curved profiles and repetitively produce multiples of the same part? The spindle moulder has never been a good tool for creating housings, or what the Americans call a dado-- its geometry is all wrong for housing cuts.
We British Europeans find routers indispensable for certain tasks, and cutting housings is near the top of the list of indispenable tasks, because it is fast, accurate, safe and efficient, albeit noisy and dusty And the tool is a significant aid to profitable woodworking, and for some woodworkers, profit is one of the the most important criteria of all. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 2/12/2009 7:50 pm by SgianDubh
Hi sgianDubh,
We could each keep on posting our own opinions back and forth, I don't know how interesting that would be broadly. What I think is more interesting and pertinent is the original point about woodworking in Europe and the US. I kind of hope to get back to that discussion rather than getting bogged down.Don
Edited 2/13/2009 3:04 am by DonaldHWagstaff
I find it interesting. You say that the use of routers over there is aberrant and not tradition but shapers are. Richard and several others say they are in wide use there and keep in mind that the OP did not specify industry. If he had... then dado cutters would not be the norm here in the U.S. either as stacked dado blades are mainly used by hobbyist and small shops which vastly out-number industry workers in the U.S. I would suspect that to be true in Europe also?
So.. should I be led to believe as one here in the U.S. that everyone that cuts a groove over there has a shaper in their shop? I have a large shop compared to most of my Euro acquaintances and I don't have a shaper. For that matter I don't have a dado stack as I cut them with a router and T-square which takes only 20 minutes apiece to build as one has to have a separate one for each size dado bit as noted. Life is simple.
So.. it may boil back to the point Richard made of where do you begin with tradition as grooves have probably been cut for thousands of years when there were no shapers or routers either in Europe or elsewhere in the known world at that time. I believe the OP meant currently as in today but... until he clarifies I can't say for sure?
Sarge..
Edited 2/13/2009 10:25 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hi,
Routers are common here, undoubtedly, and so are shapers. Let me put it this way. You would not be wrong to think that many large, medium, and small workshops- however you want to define that- are equipped with shapers. I think that might surprise you.However, It is now less that before.
If you look again at what philip writes above, I'll wait..... I think this reflects a more common attitude toward the router in the workshop.
And you'll forgive me but I am not going to touch that topic of what is tradition. You are right, the OP, as you call it (I don't know what that means, and don't feel like you have to explain it either) was talking about now.Don
Original Poster..
Sarge..
Don, you won't get bogged down with me if your contributions are relevant, correct and factual.
You stated, " I guess if you were looking for an equivalent, a spindle shaper would probably be used here, maybe with a power feed, where you would typically use a dado set-up." It is true that you can mount cutter blocks that resemble dado blades in spindle moulders, aka spindle shapers, but this machine is very poorly suited to cutting housings (dadoes) across the middle width of a long panel. It is poorly suited to the task because to do the job you have to remove the spindle, replace the spindle with a router collet and pass the wood over the router cutter using some sort of guiding system, and spindle moulders don't spin fast enough to use a router cutter effectively.
What adastra wants to know is, how do us Europeans cut a dado (housing) in light of the fact that we don't mount a dado blade in a table saw and pass the panel across the buried blade as north Americans do? The practice described by adastra doesn't occur in professional workshops here in the UK, but I know some amateurs do use a dado blade mounted on the arbor of imported North American configured saws.
You compound your earlier error by saying, "The shaper, in its various forms is the reference point here in terms of European standard practices." As has been pointed out to you by more than just myself, we mostly use routers and guides such as T squares to machine dadoes (housings).
The spindle moulder's capabilities that you brought into this discussionn are mostly irrelevant. Tradition is also an irrelevance, and that is another topic your raised. The answer to adastra's question is that the majority of dadoes (housings) formed in Europe using typical contemporary European woodworking practices are cut with routers of one sort or another. There are one or two additional methods sometimes seen that don't involve routers, but those other methods are comparatively rare. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
A shaper is commonly used in Holland where a dado set-up would be used in the US and so could be seen as a rough equivalent. In general I agree with what you say about it being not well suited for cutting away from edges although I have seen machines with slots in the tables and fences.
I see the term dado as referring to a tooling set-up on the table saw.I didn't read the original posting as explicitly referring to making what you call housings.Although it is difficult I find to go back and reference that post and write this response at the same time but I have re read it several times and maybe I'm looking at the intent of what is in that posting. I think my assumption is confirmed by the poster in a further down entry. So If we are talking about a tooling set-up, then the capabilities of the spindle molder can't be irrelevant.
I'm glad to see you have the backing of other "posters", here on the Internet for your assertions about the superiority and dominance of router use in Europe.I still won't be joining your cult. In Holland, finally, there are no housings and no dadoes formed by any method, there are groven.Don
A shaper is commonly used in Holland where a dado set-up would be used in the US and so could be seen as a rough equivalent. In general I agree with what you say about it being not well suited for cutting away from edges although I have seen machines with slots in the tables and fences.
I see the term dado as referring to a tooling set-up on the table saw.I didn't read the original posting as explicitly referring to making what you call housings.Although it is difficult I find to go back and reference that post and write this response at the same time but I have re read it several times and maybe I'm looking at the intent of what is in that posting. I think my assumption is confirmed by the poster in a further down entry. So If we are talking about a tooling set-up, then the capabilities of the spindle molder can't be irrelevant.
I'm glad to see you have the backing of other "posters", here on the Internet for your assertions about the superiority and dominance of router use in Europe.I still won't be joining your cult. In Holland, finally, there are no housings and no dadoes formed by any method, there are groven.DonDon
Donald, I seldom mis-read what posters here say..
Richard (My sons name) I do it all the time and gets me in heaps of trouble ALOT!
Richard,Felder has been offering their Adjustable Groove Cutter (3/8" - 3/4"), a tool similar to a shaper head groove cutter, but with a 30 mm arbor and locatng pin holes for their sliding table saws since about 2005. The oldest Felder catalog I have is dated 2006 showing the tool and I remember requesting that before it was available, having seen the groover tool advertised (so it must have been in 2005).I've seen Felder machines from a few years before that date which appear to be a different design. So it looks like they went through a re-design just before 2005, or there-abouts, incorporating the longer arbor and ability to accept this cutter.Rich
Rich,
Scheppach offer a similar molder-like gubbins to that of Felder. I might have tried one if it didn't cost silly money for what is in reality a very simple item. The width is limited to 15mm and they "advise" that a Suba-style overhead guard "must" be used (more silly money, for theirs at least).
So I didn't bother, as multiple passes across a standard width blade having some flat-bottomed teeth in it, using the sliding carriage and it's micro-adjust fence-stop to control the width/position of the housing, soon makes very accurate ones; and safely. The (low-profile) riving knife can be left in position also, whereas mounting the molder-head would require that the riving knife be taken off.
Lataxe
Lataxe,Exactly.The Felder cutter and needed accessories are about US$600 right now. The saw has to be ordered either in standard configuration (short arbor) or with the longer arbor and can't be retrofitted. (The design difference includes changes in the relationship of the slider to the arbor assembly) I ordered mine with the ability to accept the slotting cutter. But I've never ordered the expensive cutter. I have very little need for cutting "dados." But I do any such slotting with a router. Always have. Probably always will.Felder offers no special guard to be fitted when using the slotter as it's never to be used for a through-cut. The standard riving knife (splitter) also has to be removed as it protrudes up beyond a 10 inch or 12 inch saw blade, let alone the 8" slotter to hold the crown guard and doesn't allow non-through cuts. If a shark's fin type riving knife were used it could be left on with the slotter. It wouldn't accomplish anything, but wouldn't be in the way.Rich
Hi Rich,I've got one of the slotting cutters - spindle moulder arbors are 30mm. These are sold/used as tooling for the spindle moulder, not the saw over here..Don(?)To clarify terminology, housings run across the grain in UK/Australia, trenches and grooves run with the grain in UK/Australian terminology..Adastra,A housing or a trench is made with a router in Australian workshops.As Richard said, the only place you see a dado cutter is on a Radial Arm Saw. I don't like using them on a Radial Arm Saw either.Rather than reposting something I typed yesterday, for reasons, click here .Cheers,eddie
Edited 2/14/2009 3:03 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Eddie , I read your post from the link and I'm curious as to why you would want a riving knife to be used with a dado blade?
Tom.
Hi Tom,I don't. It wouldn't work. I re-read what I'd written to make sure that I was clear. Perhaps it could be clearer.The knife needs to be thicker than the saw blade stock and thinner than the kerf.A riving knife is an essential safety feature, and I'm really reluctant to do an operation on a saw that doesn't have one, including running a dado blade.Cheers,eddie
Yes, but if one DID use a dado head, the cut is NOT a through cut. There is no chance of the material closing on the blade.I'm not advocating the use of the technique, but whether the riving knife is left mounted, or removed, it doesn't matter.Rich
HI Rich,I'm not going to advocate one method or another, as I'm trained differently to the US method. These are completely different techniques. The original poster asked what was done in other areas in preference to the use of a dado head on a saw. For mine, the router is a far safer technique.Anyway, must fly - I'm up to the proverbial in alligators trying to meet a deadline midnight tonight (10 hours away)Cheers,eddie
Edited 2/14/2009 10:27 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Rich
When I cut housing joints using the cross-cut fence and sliding table, the riving knife stays on with the standard width (3.2mm) blade. As the workpiece is moved across in 3mm steps (using the micro-adjust stop on the cross-cut fence) the housing is gradually widened.
As the blade cuts either end of the housing, the riving knife is agin the housing wall. This means there is less chance of the workpiece rotating away from the fence and maybe getting caught/flipped by the back of the blade coming up out of the table. As the workpiece is being run back over the blade (on the sliding table) ready for the next cut, there is a small possibility of it separating from the cross-cut fence and so-rotating.
The risk of such rotate-flip might be quite small even without a riving knife, as the blade is typically no more than 1/2" out of the table. Nevertheless, I feel better that the riving knife is there and guiding those housing walls away from the blade.
Lataxe
David, I have heard you mention in other posts your fear of the board rotating during a dado cut and until now did not quite get it.
Granted, the beauty of a Euro style slider is the ability to batch cut plywood panels and cab/furniture parts consistently square . Add a hold down clamp on the crosscut fence along with an arbor long enough for a dado stack and you have a reasonably safe and consistent method of creating housings / dadoes in multiples. For me this is a necessity I afford myself as it is part of my livelihood .
I have seen where others post they see no need for a dado groove in a wide panel, For me a butt joint is not acceptable for quality cabs of any sort be it kitchens/ vanities/ ect... IMO it eases assembly as well as structural integrity.
As for the task of shimming dado blades to suit varying panel thicknesses, no shims here. In the same manor as you would cut a mortise before the tenon I bolt up a stack just shy of the panel thickness then fit the mating panel during assembly using the router table with fence and a 3/4' straight bit to create a small rabbit. This method works for me as I have had the panels swell with changes in humidity form the time I moved through my cut list to assembly.
How dose all of this relate to the OP. As many have stated an American style saw with a dado stack is certainly not a safe method of work, to this I agree.
For myself the use of a Euro style slider with the proper stops and work piece clamp along with American dado stack incorporates the best of both worlds. As I stated earlier this method suits my livelihood and method of work.
Tom.
Edited 2/15/2009 9:11 am ET by gofigure57
Having read through 36 odd posts on this, is there anyone out there who has data concerning the EU view that the way we cut dado(s) in north america is equivalent to standing in front of an oncoming train?
A lot of these posts have a holier than thou under current. I am thinking accident data and statistics that are identified specifically with the use of dado cutters on a table saw. I know that anything can be made safer. Hell, ultimately we could be using robotic arms whilst standing in a remote bunker to cut wood.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 2/15/2009 2:59 pm by PeterDurand
"ultimately we could be using robotic arms whilst standing in a remote bunker to cut wood."By George, why didn't I think of that?! I think you're on to something there! The bunker, of course, needs to be fitted with a safety interlock switch.Rich
That has a guard on it :-)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Thanks to all that have contributed to the thread.I wanted to interject and try to keep this from becoming a Euro safety reg vs. American freedom holier-than-thou argument.I simply have learned through this forum that a practice I don't even question is not a standard procedure in Europe/UK. They have a pretty good tradition of woodworking in Europe so I'm not too concerned whether they have a good basis for not working as we do. I don't consider one "better" than the other but like having the opportunity to learn another's ways.
A wise post.I did not mean to offend.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
No offense at all, but you know how these forums can get.In that regard I have to say Knots members tend to have more restraint than other forums from what I've seen over the years and its welcome.Thanks again to all that contributed.
That has a guard on it :-) You bet, those Robot parts get expensive when one loses a part from kickback or other accident.
Thanks Eddie, I agree .
Tom.
Some Felder/SCMI... models use a shaper cutter in panel saws. I really like mine. Nice clean square cuts and the scriber is removable. You can also find jointing blades (square tips). I have a 4mm wide blade that I use on my Felder and have looked at 10mm blades also. The problem with the jointing blades is the tearout, but if you have the stock clamped down to a slider climb cutting is an option.
Brad
Edited 2/11/2009 3:35 pm ET by brad805
From what I heard was that the arbor on the Euro tablesaws are shorter, will not allow the stackup of the cutters and chippers, than the ones in the US and something about the blade has to stop a certain amount of seconds after power is shut off.
Dado- ing Is not used here as far as I'm aware. I suspect no-one sees the need. Another thing could be that in general things are a lot more regulated here and the set-up would be illegal. I was on an apprenticeship in the US and used dadoes a time or two and am glad it is not common practice here. It struck me as dangerous then especially given that the machinery there is much lighter, (I have never experienced what you call "kick-back" on my table saw or jointer, I guess because of greater mass).
I have heard though of people skewing the blade on the axel so it is not turning perpendicular to the front of the table but at a slight angle. You can imagine that that would widen the kerf.
Routers are, sadly in my opinion, becoming more and more popular here though my sence is more for hobbyists and where production and turn-over are the priorities.
I guess if you were looking for an equivalent, a spindle shaper would probably be used here, maybe with a power feed, where you would typically use a dado set-up.
I find that it's very unusual that we need to make a dado in the middle of some wide panel. My SCMI tablesaw arbor takes only up to 8mm thick, and we've used that for inlaying cross-banding on doors. For 90% of the dado situations I encounter, the shaper can handle it and does a cleaner job. When there's no choice - router and guide rail, but it occurs rarely.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Well I am overseas and here is my abnormal way to , for example, dadoes or trenches in solid wood for book case shelves :-
Use one heavy radial arm to make two cuts which define the width of the dado which equals the thickness of the shelves.
Then use either a power router to free hand remove the waste between the cuts. Or you can use the Stanley #71 hand tool which is ideal for the job, especially if you want to do stopped dadoes. Both leave a nice flat bottomed dado of consistent depth.
No futszing about with fences , guides, straight edges etc etc.
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