Yesterday, I visited a local cabinet maker and got a tour of his shop. I was surprised to see that nearly all his machinery was European – MiniMax and SCI. He said he used to have mostly Delta and Powermatic, which were good machines, but required a lot of adjustment. At the time he had five men working for him, and often they’d neglect checking the machinery for square, etc., resulting in a lot of wood going into the scrap bin as well as a lot of wasted time.
He made the switch seven years ago, and claims that none of those machines (including a 14″ table saw with sliding table) have needed adjustment since initial set-up. I found his comments interesting, since it seems form the posts on this forum and my own experience show that we do spend a lot of time tweaking machinery.
Don’t know that a lot of us have the resources to purchase such machinery, but there definitely is a difference.
Jeff
Replies
It's like buying a Mercedes instead of a Dodge. It's one and half times as good and it costs 5 times as much. So is it actually better? Both will get you to the hardware store.
I get the point of your analogy, but for accuracy the numbers should be reversed. (In case you haven't noticed it, the "American" cars have gotten very expensive.) Also, both Dodge and Mercedes are made by Daimler-Chrysler, a German company that manufactures in many countries.
Jeff
We all seem to spend too much time tuning up machinery ,my belief is that most manufactureres have found that they can getaway with sloppy tolerances on woodworking machines.The premise is that great precision is not needed for woodworking.Metalworking machines of similar price are made to much greater accuracy.Then come all the sloppy imports from Asia and those built for North American (to our specs ,no less)markets.Basicly the same machines with different stickers you can buy them for the price of scrap and thats what you get! We are our own worst enemy by purchasing this rubbish we perpetuate it.Well that's my rant for now I've spent an hour cursing my Delta powerfeeder.I can see the point of the Euro Shop!!
A gripe i have with the Euro tools is that you have to contact the dealer directly to get pricing. They never seem to include prices on their web sites unless they are selling used stuff.
Do I need that level of tool? Naw. Would I buy it? I might. I never bought a new car or truck so maybe it's time to spoil myself.
Sorta like: To BJ from BJ. with love
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
I noticed this some years ago in FWW. The large color ads at the front of the magazine don't have prices. The small b&w ads at the back of the magazine often do. Then I noticed that it didn't really make any difference, since I couldn't afford to buy any of the stuff in the large color ads even if I knew the price.
Jeff,
Thanks for your post. I am in the market for a new tablesaw and during my research obtained catalogs and even a few free videos form Minimax, Laguna, Hammer and other Euro combination tools. Though the initial cost of these tools is significant, in the long run they seem like just the ticket for any small shop. Such large cash outlay decisions are hard to make. And, I live far away from any showrooms where I could look at the tools F2F. Catalog pictures and videos are great but running a piece of wood through yourself would really answer the questions. I would be very interested to hear from any woodworkers out there willing to provide more info on the Euro tools.
Sawick
Europeans have been leading the technology for woodworking for many years, especially in sheet goods. The biscuit jointer and slot mortiser go back to 50's I believe. I've been fortunate enough to work with sliders, beam saws, construction line borers and edge banders. Not fine woodworking by a long shot but it certainly changes how one thinks about doing certain operations. Plus the hardware is great. I could machine and build a cabinet and have hardware on order and it would all fit together with dimensions that were provided by the catalog. With American hardware I had to have it in hand first. I don't see the cost as being that bad considering when you add on the slider and scoring to an American saw you end up with a cobbled unit for the price of an import. I was really impressed at how well the combo jointer/planers can change back and forth in minutes and maintain their accuracy. There's also a few forums dedicated to the European combination machines. All the European jointers I have seen use the parallelogram arrangement copied by Delta on their DJ series machines. Also interesting to note that while Bill Biesemeyer based his fence on the T-square the Europeans already had something similar earlier.
Spent a number of years as a service tech and the nice thing about Euro planers is there is a lot less you have to adjust compared to American planers. The upper feed rolls are preset. At least on the SCMI and Minimax.
Got any specific questions?
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for the question answer offer. If you don't mind here are a few.
1. Parts availability- is this a problem? Do american standard size saw blades, shaper cutters. pulleys, motors, etc fit euro combo machines? 2. Rip capacity- most combos seem a bit limited; around 27 to 50 inches depending on the brand and unfortunately only the real big and real high price models have all the bells and whistles I desire. Which machine IYO is the best middle ground purchase? 3. Is a used combo a good idea? 4. When using the planer most combos require the jointer table to be flipped up for changeover. Thus it looks pretty awkward for the operator to get around the machine to retrieve stock. Do you agree? I guess this same question applies to other machine functions in that on-off switches are sometimes around the back side of the tool used. I could imagine wearing a circular path around the machine just getting to switches. 5. In the video from Laguna, it looks like the operator has to do a lot of near the floor squatting to set adjustments, especially on the mortiser. Does this increase chances for errors?
Thanks for your input
sawick
I haven't found parts to be a problem, but Felder does have 2 U.S. locations. On the other hand, I can't run to Home Depot to pick something off a Delta tool there.
Blades may not fit. On saws with brakes there are often pin holes next to the arbor hole. Also, the arbor hole may have a different size or shape. I bought a Forrest blade, told them the saw, and they sent it to me bored for my machine. No bog deal. Shaper cutters fit the spindle. The spindle you buy can be of any size available from the manufacturer. Worst case, you use a reducer. No big deal.
Rip capacity. Hmm, I don't use plywood and have never approaced the rip capacity of my saw. I would guess it to be 50" on the right side of the blade. You should note, however, that with a sliding table, much of the cutting is or can be done on the left. So, the capacity on the left is unlimited except by support for the workpiece.
Used tools of any sort are a mixed bag. Somebody else will be able to chime in on moderate priced machines of good quality. I saved up and got the Felder. That seemed like a good idea at the time and I am still happy.
On the Felder, the jointer tables flip up as one and flip in toward the saw. No problem at all getting to the planer. Same as any planer really. The Felder has switches at each station. So, no problem there either.
These posts are probably painting a rosier picture of the Euro machine than it really deserves. On the whole they tend to be a little better and offer some capabilities not usually found on stand-alone American or Asian clone machines. They also have their own eccentric features and a few failings as well, the Euro machines are NOT better in every regard.
The Euro machines typically have more adjustments to them than others, the down side is that none of the manuals I’ve seen offer any real descriptions on how to make those adjustments. Euro machines are also not immune to adjustment problems. If you know where to look you can find quite a few examples jointer tables not maintaining alignment and a few other problems as well.
The real reasons for going with Euro machines are for space considerations or to get the more advanced features that are not found on other types, chief among these are the sliding tables.
I've got more Euro machine info on my site if you are still looking.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
The real reasons for going with Euro machines are for space considerations or to get the more advanced features that are not found on other types, chief among these are the sliding tables.
I would include built-in safety as advanced features of European saws. The crown guard and riving knife can reduce or eliminate most tablesaw injuries--those from direct cutting of various appendages and those caused by kickback--suffered on Unisaw clones. These features cost a few Euros but have a tremendous benefit. I would also call the integrated sliding table a safety feature, because it makes unnecessary all the dumb maneuvers workers try at their peril with wide crosscuts on the North American tablesaws.
But you are right in your main message, Phil: Consumer/small shop Euro saws have their minuses as well as their plusses.
I agree 100%, I should have mentioned safety, it is one of the reasons I “went” Euro. A blade brake is a very nice safety feature also. To me, the main safety improvement is the sliding table.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
Sawick
Two years ago we were fortunate enough to encounter the Euro 300 while researching tablesaws, after which i planned to look into a planer, and a jointer, etc. I had never heard of combination machines like this before. The distributor is Eagle Tools Injecta in Southern California. Their website is not complete, but the url is http://www.eagle-tools.com/
The Euro 300 is a sliding tablesaw, 12 planer/jointer, and 1-1/4 inch spindle shaper. It has three 3-5 hp motors. Also is a mortiser (horizontal boring). This machine is a pure joy to use; beautifully designed and machined in Italy.
I just picked up a Rojek 12" comb planer/jointer (used). This is a big improvement over my old 6" Jet. I was looking at a new 8", but then started looking at used machinery. Paid $840.00. This is less than the cost, delivered, of a new 8". Kind of goes along with the car analogy. I would take a used (2-4 yr old) German sedan over a new Japanese or American car any day.
i switched from Delta and other U.S. machines to a Felder combo. It was a space issue for me. I've been very happy. Much less tweaking involved. Much more user friendly. Dust chutes well designed as are safety devices.
Someone was asking about the combo machines on another post. Do you find that you have enough table surface? How long and difficult is switch-over time?
Jeff
Enough table surface for what? In my shop, which is horribly small, I never have enough surface. But, for using the saw or shaper, I have plenty. The jointer/planer is 12", so plenty there too. In fact, the jointer tables are perfectly aligned with the table saw top, so I have lots of surface.
The difficulty with a combo like mine (Felder) is not the change over time, which is truly insignificant, but the moving of your stuff from one spot to another. My shop is so small that I often have things on the jointer that have to be moved to the saw that are then juggled to the workbench. Once I have a bigger shop (construction to begin soon), this should no longer be a problem.
I estimate one minute to switch from table saw to jointer. 1.5 from table saw to planer or shaper. 1 minute or less from jointer to planer.
Happy to answer any other questions.
Scott
Thanks. I'm not sure of solving the space problem by moving into a bigger shop. I now have three times the work area I had two years ago, and still don't have enough space. I'm constantly dragging out tools and leaving them on the saw or cabinet top or one of three work benches. (Right now I have a claw hammer hanging from a spindle in the lathe! Must remember to put that away before I turn the lathe on.)
Part of the problem is that I started using the shop before I finished it, so I don't yet have a designated place for everything to go. Maybe next year.
Jeff
my plan is to build specific storage spots for eveything to speed along clean up. otherwise, i am a slop.
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