There was a bronze LN #4 for auction on eBay last night. It was late and looked like it could be “stolen” at a fair price. The seller had pictures of the plane assembled and upright, one picture of the sole and one picture of the blade. The sole seem to have excessive scratches but may have been accentuated by the way light was hitting it, The blade had an obvious nick and appeared to match one of the scratches on the sole. I bid on it thinking if I got it right, I could spend the time to restore tje sole and sharpen the blade.
Surprise!! That sucker went for $265!! The same plane can be bought for—you guessed it, $ 265. http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/lie-nielsen.htm
Amazing that someone would pay new purchase price for a plane that would require a fairly significant time before use when it could be bought from a reputable dealer and used right out of the box. Amazing.
Replies
C.B.: Have you ever looked at the used book site "ABE" books? They have used books with prices twice and more for volumes that are still available new. I don't know if anyone falls for this but I'd imagine so, otherwise it would not be still on line. There are decently priced books there but buyer beware, same goes for EBAY.
Duke
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Duke,
It is nontheless amazing that people get sucked in on some of these "deals". I only made my bid because I thought maybe, just maybe I could land a steal. Buying a book and buying a $265 LN plane is a little different in so far as the outlay. Equally stupid, however.
Have a good weekend.
There are lots of books that cost more than a LN plane.
Tom
Does anyone ever get the feeling that an E-bay seller (or accomplice) will bid up the price at the very end, if they don't think they'll get a good price?
Actually what you described is called shill bidding. It's where someone has something up for auction and it's not going for as much as he hoped, so he tells his friend to log in and bid on it to increase the price. It's against eBay's selling policy and if the seller is found out, eBay can terminate his account.
There are ways to protect your price if you're selling through eBay though. The easiest way is to put a reserve on your item. If your item doesn't reach your reserve price, you keep it. Sometimes reserves turn off potential bidders because they may feel your reserve is much higher than what it actually is and end up not bidding at all.
The other thing you can do is cancel your auction. If you put something out on eBay with no reserve with a low starting bid and no one is interested in it, you can cancel the auction as long as there is more than 12 hours left. Very few people actually do this because most auctions increase in price at the very end. I've seen tools go from $20 to $130.00 with less than 2 minutes left. Everyone wants to be a sniper.
mike
coolbreeze, It often happens that at the end of an auction, bidders get caught up in the frenzy of the situation and are so intent on winning the bidding war , that their emotions override any logic. I have seen many different kinds of used items sell for more than their (still available) new price. Several years ago, when digital cameras were still quite new, I bought a Canon G3 for about $700. I was not happy with it and after about 2 weeks, with very light use, put it up for auction. The camera was essentially new, there wasn't a mark on it. I was honest about the situation and would have been very happy to have gotten half the price I paid. I watched in amazement, as in the final half hour the bidding passed the new camera price and the "winning" bidder bid $850! There were almost 10 bids in the last 30 seconds. I told the winner I was emabarassed to accept his bid. But he paid and I gladly shipped the camera. Rich
Hi Coolbreeze.... It's called 'Auction Fever' and is quite common. I've seen it at a live auction where two guys got into a bidding war over an item. It went for twice the price an antique shop was asking for the same item. Many bidders on e-bay really don't know the retail (or list) price of an item and set their automatic bidding software at too high a price. I've seen more than one item sitting at $50 until the last 10 seconds when it jumped all the way to $350 or MUCH more. It's like poker, no one wants to show an interest until the very last second.
SawdustSteve
I gusess the saying is true "IF you got it, you got it". I don't think I got it.
The next time I have blood drawn, I think I'll ask my doctor to include "auction fever" in the profile. I sure do not want it:>)
seems to be a lot of people paying to much for LN stuff on E-bay but I have seen stuff sold to over seas buyers at what seems like high prices but I think that they still might be paying less than they would otherwise because of value added taxes and tariffs in their countrys. Or it could be just auction fever.
Troy
Overseas is another matter and even Canada is higher. Having said that, the overseas and Camada buyer would have the same access to the US merchant willing to sell a new #4 bronze for $285.
Methinks it is auction fever.
I was thinking that in Europe maybe this would be a way to avoid the value added tax. But you are probably right it does sound like auction fever.Troy
Coolbreeze. Lie Nielson tools are equally coveted and desired on this side of the pond, but they do not sell direct to us but refer us to their UK suppliers. Now here is the sting and if you want a laugh have a look at the UK website for Axminster Power Tool Centre for the costs.
A Lie Nielsen No 4 is £225.34 (GBP) which converts to $439.31!!!!!!
A 60 1/2 Block Plane is £112.67 (GBP) which converts to $219.70!!!!
And finally for real "ball busting" expense a LN No 8 Jointer Plane is £356.80 (GBP) which converts to $695.76!!!!!
All UK suppliers market LN tools at about the same price range so I would imagine it is a LN pricing policy.
So while you lucky people look at brand new, out of the box, I'm off to "snipe" on Ebay.
Regards
Guy
Coolbreeze,
This thing about Lie Nielsen tools selling used on EBay for as much as new in stores, has been discussed often on Knots. I have often joked that, if you are considering "life cycle" costs of your tools, then Lie Nielsen tools are the cheapest you can buy. The reason is that you can buy them direct from Lie Nielsen or from Woodcraft or any other seller, and use them for a few years, and then sell them on EBay for as much as you paid for them.
By the way, there is another tool maker which has the same reputation on EBay, and that is Pfeil. Pfeil carving tools go for almost full price (sometimes more), virtually all the time. If you don't believe this, go to EBay and type in "Pfeil Swiss Made" and search EBay, and then click on the "completed items" and search again. Look at what the stuff has sold for.
Coolbreeze, this is not something to complain about. These facts can by used by any woodworker for their own benefit. You just can't lose by buying Lie Nielsen and/or Pfeil tools.
If you go through the past threads on this topic, you will see that many of the buyers of these tools are from other countries. Somehow, buying from an EBay seller saves them money over buying them directly in their country, or from a company in the US.
Lie Nielsen is aware of this. No surprises. I don't think they are bothered by it. I can't understand why anyone would be unhappy about it. IT IS WONDERFUL. No one is hurt by this process. The most expensive tools you can buy, when cost is taken in a "Life Cycle" sense, would be tools from places like Harbor Freight. They may initially cost less than other brands to buy new, but they have little if any resale value. Lie Nielsen and Pfeil sell (on EBay) consistently for about what they cost new here in the US.
Go with the flow.
Never look a gift horse in the mouth.
The early bird catches the worm.
BUY ALL THE LIE NIELSEN AND PFEIL TOOLS THAT YOU CAN AFFORD. Use them, Treat them well, and then sell em on EBay, and buy some more. That way, you always have GREAT, new tools, and you are helping keep the American Dream of capitalism alive and well.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I reckon that is a cunning ploy by Lie Nielsen to boost the intrinsic value of their planes .....(;)
I have a plane that I made that contains "features" that I no longer incorporate -it is a one-off, should I just pop it onto E Bay at a huge price? (Actually this may be a serious question).Philip Marcou
Philip, if you put one of your planes on eBay and let the guys around here know it's listed, I'm sure it will go well into thousands of dollars. Course, you could always list it with a reserve just to see.
mike
Philip,
You said that you have a plane that has "features" that you no longer use, and wondered aloud whether you should put it up on EBay. If I were you, I would put it up on EBay, and I would be truthful about the "features". My guess is that, this plane, while less than your standards of perfect, is a very very good plane. There are many, including me, who would like to have one of your planes, but whose finances make it impossible to get one. Putting your less-than-perfect plane on EBay would give many of us in that boat a shot at owning one of your planes at a price lower than normal. However, my prediction is that your less-than-perfect plane would sell on EBay for MORE than the price of one of your new planes without the "features". Stamp collectors are like that. They will pay far more for something which is unique! I don't know you well, but I get the feeling that you are a highly ethical, and superbly competent tool maker who might be embarrassed to put something on EBay that is not up to your usual standards. I also believe that you are doing yourself and others a disservice by not giving them and the plane a chance on EBay. The great thing about auctions is that they allow the marked to work quickly. The market sets its own values, and those values may be surprising. I urge you to put your imperfect plane on EBay, along with a description of its "features", and why you no longer use them, along with a description of how those features affect usability. I do not believe you would have to put a reserve bid on it. Just let the Knots denizens know that the plane is going to be auctioned. I predict that it will go for at least a 20% premium over a new and perfect Marcou plane, and possibly more.Have fun,
and give us peons a chance to have some fun, and to believe, even for a fleeting second, that we might be able to own one of your masterpieces. By the way, if I were alive during Michaelangelo's time, I would have suggested some changes for the ceilings of the Sistine Chapel. What is perfection?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel , I have been mulling over what to do with this plane for some time- I believe your observations have helped consolidate the thought process: now I am probably going to list it on e bay.
The plane in question is the third one I made, and the last to have a 6mm thick sole rather than 8mm steel that I now use- actually not a disadvantage for those who may prefer a slight weight reduction. It is the only one where all the fixing screws for the bed , handle base plate and knob enter from the bottom-still no effect on working properties but I prefer to blind tap all the holes from the top except for the knob which is fixed with a counter bored stud and threaded collar-virtually invisible.It does not have a mouth adjusting facility and the gap is not small, but it still works very nicely for general purpose work and end grain planing, being a 15 degree bed. The wood is superb- not just any Rhodesian Teak, and I have very little of this left.
I think I will have to post a reserve bid on it, mainly because the shipping cost from the edge of the world to the world is no joke.
Most will have seen this one before-but here it is again.Philip Marcou
Philip,
If you would like, I would be happy to help you write the description in such a way that it will have a large number of words that will direct your ad to as many relevant potential buyers as possible. There is nothing selfish in my offer. I drool over your plane but I am not in a financial position to participate.Your plane, with all of the features you described, is, like all of your work, magnificent to behold. I am certain that it is also a real "user". Besides being a fun place, Knots has been the cause of my changing views of what is possible in the way of "quality". You are a key driver of that phenomenon. Best of luck with the plane on EBay. But be sure to put the word out on all of the woodworking sites. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Beautiful. A work of art. ................. Do Knotheads get a discount?
Paul
ps Would love to visit New Zealand. I hear it's as beautiful as your planes
Philip,
A beautiful plane.
If you aren't familiar with using Ebay, and your comment about using a reserve price to cover the shipping suggests that you don't know how the system works, you should consider getting a professional Ebayer to post your plane, they'll take a percentage of the price.
There is both an art and a science to getting the best price for high end items at an on line auction, posting the plane yourself, and not presenting it well, could cost you considerably. I speak from experience on this, my wife sells on Ebay for a living, we recently sold a vintage plane for $1,300 US.
I would also suggest politely turning down requests to fake the paperwork when shipping overseas to save the buyer some taxes, it can get you into trouble and you could end up having the tool confiscated. If a buyer can afford the tool they can afford the taxes and you gain nothing, and stand to lose a lot, by going along with the ploy.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Hello Phillip,
Very nice work, as usual. I would second everything John WW said about ebay. You definitely need to know all of the in's and out's of selling there before you try and list a $1000+ item. Also, you must be extremely cautious of con artists/rip-off guys, who lurk there. There are ways to manipulate the system, buy an item, and then have their credit card company refute the charges. I have seen this with high dollar guitars on ebay quite often. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm just saying to be very careful. You could take certified funds only, but that will decrease the number of prospective bidders. We americans love to use those credit cards.
I don't really know how the duties/tarriff thing works, but could you send the plane to Wiktor, that way it could be shipped to a U.S. address from him without that hassle? Of course, that complicates things if you get an out of the U.S. buyer.
Anyhow, none of this is of any consequence to me, because I believe Wiktor is shipping my S20A today (the fine tool journal test plane). It will be hard enough to keep the missus from finding one exquisite high dollar tool addiction purchase, much less two. The good news is, the small child I sold to fund the plane now has a good home ;) I say this only in jest, of course. Any monies spent on one of your creations is money well spent.
Best of luck,
Lee
From what I have seen of your planes, I would think eBay might be an excellent outlet for you -- not just for your "irregular" plane, but for your others as well. Have you looked into that? Are there customs/import duty issues that would make sales cumbersome -- either for you or the customer?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nik, no I have not really looked into Ebay, not being sure that it is suitable (read procrastination). Possibly timing could be important-like waiting until these planes are more familiar.
The question of duties etc has the potential to be a problem, but the declared value can be manipulated within reason if pre-arranged between buyer and seller, since I am not sending hundreds or even dozens at one time.I presume that if I sold one via ebay I would clarify this with the buyer before sending it.Philip Marcou
I went to an auction once at a major cabinet manufacturing facility that went belly up in lancaster Pa. People were there that had no right to be there. There were people that were bidding for used tools(mostly airguns) that were willing to pay more for a given tool than could be bought brand new at full retail prices. Asinine. Maybe they were placed there by the auction house, I do not know but it defeats the purpose of going to auctions.
mark
Mark,
You wrote: "People were there that had no right to be there."Do you mean that, literally, like it was for dealers only and somehow non-dealers got in? Or do you just mean that it was hard to buy bargains because there were too many high bidders. The auctioneers and sellers certainly have no reason to restrict their pool of buyers to bargain-hunters only, right?
-Andy
I recieved an advertisment/invitation from the auction house. I was under the assumption that the auction was to be geared towards the trades and not open to the general public. It is not like I was sitting in front of the computer screen in the comfort of my home. Lancaster is a 2-1/2 hour drive for me, and as well I took the day off from my shop to attend. Had I known that it was open to the general public I would not have wasted my time in going.
mark
Mark,
Thanks, that makes sense to me now. If they attracted people to the auction by making it seem like a restricted group, then it was indeed not right if it was open to the general public.
-Andy
Mark, if they were bidding on old Senco air guns I can believe it. Some of the best tools that came out of the Senco plant in Cincinnati are the older models. Just replace the o-ring kits and you have a brand new gun.
mike
Things change, but they remain the same. 30 years ago I went to one of my few tool auctions at a bankrupted wooden window company. They had a list of all the tools they had to sell and I researched the new selling price on all those machines and almost everyone went for more then when they were new. I stopped bidding on a Rockwell( tells you how old it was) 8"jointer at $300 ($600 new then) and this guy next to me paid $800 and I told him you could buy that at Marsh Power Tools for $600 new and he said they are worth $1,000. I had my hands on the same tool the day before and wrote down the price and the one he bought was a little rough. The only deal I saw was a Boice Crane shaper went for $200 and they had been out of business for years and the spindle had slop in it. Last auction I ever went too. Ebay is just the electronic version of what I went to 30 years ago with a million more addicts bidding. You really have to do your research.
Terry
I guess some people are just plain ignorant on the price of tools. That they can purchase brand new never been used or pay the same price for something someone has used for a few years, go figure. It's like buying a new house, I get to put the first holes in the walls for all of the things I want then fix them when I leave. I guess E-Bay is good to the extent that when you want to sell a used tool there is someone stupid enough to buy it for brand new prices.
Having auctioneers in my family tree, all I can say is, buyer beware.
There are so many scams in the auction business. Same scams on ebay as they had a hunnert years ago, just digitized. The auctioneer will have house bidders driving up prices from the inside, others working the crowd making "revealing" comments about the item ("only driven by my cousin Belle, on Sundays"), and so on.
And the band plays on.
Selling on ebay is great. Although I think that the fees have gone through the roof.
Last year I bought a used roofing nailer, put on three roofs, and sold it a year later for double what I paid for it.
Around the same time I also bought a new flash for my camera and sold the three year old one for about the same as the new one I had purchased a month prior.
The trick seems to be to have good pictures and an honest description.
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