I am fairly new to wood working and Trying to decide to buy a single stage dust colletor and save a few dollars or buy a cyclone dust colector. Will I be happy with the single stage or later down the road wish I had a cyclone. My shop is 30×32 11 ft cealings so floor space is not a great concern.
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Replies
Though I don't have much to base it on, I think that you would rather have a cyclone now, would rather have a cyclone when you get your single stage and wished you had gotten the cyclone when you come down with an acute case of emphysema. Now that is really stronger than warranted but it might have some truth also.
Tink,
You do have a way with words. I wish someone had given me the same wise counsel 35 years ago. Breathing problems are persistently not fun....
Best!
-Jerry
If you had gotten that warning thirty five years ago, it wouldn't have been from me. I, like you, had no idea then what damage wood dust could do. In that respect, fortunately, I haven't done much woodworking in that time frame.
I have had both systems and there is no comparison to the cyclone. I replaced my 2 bagger with an Onieda Cyclone and it has been a big improvement over the old system. Mine is the old style and has the internal filter which can be a pain to change, but it is very effective in picking up all the dust generated by my equipment.
I vote for the cyclone too.
By the way, it sounds like a great shop. Big, open floor plan, tall ceilings... but aren't all shops too small?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"---aren't all shops too small--"
Yes!! Wood working is like a gas; it expands to fill its container!
All the best!
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Go here
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
Read it all twice. Then make your decision.
Dust collection is major. You want to do it once and do it right.
Don
Thanks Don01.
I am a A/C mechanic and work around harsh chemicals all day but I never thought about saw dust as being bad for you to. I have read the link you sugested and found it most helpful. Next week I.ll be ordering a clear vue cyclone.
Thanks Auto
Without a doubt, cyclone, and be sure to put in big enough ducts. I strongly recommend the square inch equivalent of 6" ducts to all tools. Modify the tools if necessary to handle the 6" duct equivalent. For example, I added a second 4" port to my BS and split the 6" duct into two 4" ducts at the BS. My sad tale is that I thought a 2HP pseudo-cyclone DC with a pleated upper filter and lower plastic collection bag connected to 4" ducts would be enough. It wasn't. The first thing I had to do was replace the 4" ducts with 6". This gave enough airflow to the tools but then caused so much airflow through the DC that all the fine dust went straight to the pleated filter instead of the collection bag. The filter would clog after a couple hours of resawing veneer. So the second step was to replace the DC with a cyclone. On the other hand, if you live in the Austin, TX area, disregard everything I said and I can make you a great deal on a 2HP pseudo-cyclone DC and 4" ducting. :-)
AT, I'm not following what a "pseudo-cyclone DC" is, could you be more specific? You mention canister filter, you're not talking about one of these are you?
View Imageforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes, that is it. It was the 2HP Jet model. I didn't want to single out Jet since the problem would have probably been the same for any brand of this design.
No need to single out -- that DC has never pretended to be a cyclone, as far as I know. Same design as the old baggers, just substituted a better filtration device for the top bag. IMHO, the term pseudo-cyclone is inappropriate.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/16/2009 1:31 pm by forestgirl
I have heard of that special shaped lid to be put on a garbage can referred to as a pseudo-cyclone. It does swirl the air around like in a cyclone but isn't scientifically designed to be considered a real cyclone. Of course, I'm not telling you anything new. When I was a kid, we had a grinder that that was pulled by a 30 or 40 HP tractor (should have been 60 HP) and had a "cyclone" on the out put end that slowed the output down and dropped it into a bin. We didn't use the word "cyclone" and just called it the dust collector. Believe it or not, this was upwards of seventy years ago.
Edited 1/16/2009 5:08 pm ET by Tinkerer3
If you have the DC mounted OUTSIDE the work space and in an exterior closet room, the bag system works great. You do not get the dust coming out of the bag back into your work space. This works great in mild climates, but in New England it would not work.
I concur with the duct size, my 1.5 hp 115 V bagger pulls air through 6" PVC pipe much more efficiently. It pulls chips and small cutoffs with no problem. The issue on pipe size is if it gets to large, the velocity in the pipe is so low it drops material out of the line and there is sits... To small of a pipe and friction loss increases until it is worthless. No regrets about the 6" line in my shop.
AZMO
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"...but in New England it would not work." Will it work in Seattle? ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well judging by the pictures you posted it would work jus fine. You look good dressed up like the michelin man in down coats, flannel lined pants, and heated gloves. That way you don't have to change clothes from outside to the shop. <grin>
Sorry to rub it in, but it is 73 outside, just back from a nice little 45 mile ride on the bicycle, shorts and tee only. Now for a small snack and it is back to the shop!
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Fortunately, that snow was an exception, not the rule, LOL.
Actually, I am curious why the outside closet approach wouldn't work in NE. I've read concerns about sucking the warm air out of the shop, and the waste therein, is that what you're thinking? Or is there some other problem?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes the heat loss is tremendous. Only takes 10 minutes or so to do an air exchange. Don told me a funny story about a guy in Canada who has one that vents outside, hence the Michelin Man visual....
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Awww aint no big thang. Heck when it's 20°F that's a great time to mill boards. No sweat man.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/18/2009 10:19 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Another thing about putting it outside you will not be able to see when the barrel is full and if you over stuff it ,it is a problem to clean at least with the Onieda internal filter system. Even with it in plain view I often over fill it when planning large quantities of wood as I for get to keep checking the clear view hose.
Does NE refer to Nebraska or the North East? If it is Nebraska, I'll confirm your guess. If you are pulling air out of your shop and replacing it with minus 30 Fahrenheit air, the shop soon becomes -- very-- cold. Minus thirty is seldom but having spent the first thirty years of my life in western Nebraska, I never saw a winter without at least two minus twenty days.
I was referring to Azmo's comment earlier "...but in New England it would not work."
I've heard all the talk about wasting warm air in a shop by putting a dust collector outside, and I wonder if it's not a bit over-estimated. Sure, a dust collector may be capable of moving 1200 or 1800 or whatever CFM. But if the air's moving through the throat plate and body holes of a table saw, or the hole in a router table, or two small ports in a band saw, how many CFM are actually being pulled from the shop?
I can see a planer letting lots of air through to the DC, but not a jointer, for instance, as the air is coming mainly through the slot between the two tables. What's your take??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"....but in New England it would not work."
Actually, I read the thread and saw the NE and was probably playing a little dumb.
I do think that if you were in a situation where even a small draft of upwards a hundred degrees differential or even half that were blowing on you, you would feel very uncomfortable. Even sitting next to a key hole in a door on a cold windy day can be uncomfortable. Now I haven't used a dust collector drawing air from the inside air and pushing it outside but I can imagine it replacing quite a bit of warm air with the cold outside air.
That said, I am a wimp for cold. Yesterday (about thirty degrees) my son and I were getting wood for the boiler. I noticed he was bare handed. He said he was okay. I wore insulated gloves and couldn't keep my hands warm.
Edited 1/18/2009 11:24 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 1/18/2009 11:26 pm ET by Tinkerer3
I'm a cold-temp whimp too. I get all kinds of flack from my husband when he walks into the shop on a 35* day, and it's 65* in there. This year's better though, I seem comfortable at ~55*.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Ugh, -55º-. Does life exist at 55? I used to be okay at that temp if I was working but lately I Keep the shop at 65 or 70. The house is set a 74 downstairs and 72 in the bedrooms. I think it is somewhat age related. Summertime it is limited to 80 but Swimbo keeps setting it down to 78.
Interesting thought regarding the true amount of CFM, but I suspect it's much higher than you think. My floor sweep sucks hard, and it's 6" diameter pipe to the floor... My shop is 7200 cuft, even if I'm only moving 500CFM that's 6% of the volume of the air in the shop (every minute).My main worry would be where the make up air would come from... If you create a negative pressure in your workshop your stoves and such may not exhaust properly.
Stoves? Heaters? Not sure how those work even <grin>
Outdoor vented DC system without return air to the shop are a big NO if you are heating or cooling the space. My garage door is open any time I work in the shop with the power tools. When I have the doors closed, and the shop shut, the DC does not work as well, no makeup air! You can feel drafts coming out of the house door, around the garage door etc, but it does not provide 500CFM or even close.
THE best thing about having the DC and air compressor out of my work space is the reduced noise. Still a whistle and air flow noise but man o man it is easier to live with. The extra benefit, no dust bag leaking micro dust back, and judging from the micro dust on the walls and floor around the DC that is fine with me. By far the best way to go for more temperate climes.
If I lived in NE or the great white north, I would still put my DC outside in a closet, and have a 20" square pleated filter on the return air duct. I have an 8" hole at the top of my closet for venting.
As a further off topic side note, I used steel brackets to make a utility "tray" to support the DC line, the EMT conduit electrical run, and steel airlines over the top of the shop. The EMT works as a ground, each box is grounded, and the whole system connects to the electrical ground. This eliminates static from forming on my PVC DC lines, they stay remarkably clean and never generate shock.
Morgan, (basking away, which will turn into basting, baking, and rotisserie weather in a few short months....) <!----><!----><!---->
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Has anyone else here tried venting their dust collection to the outside? I have a big blower (11" inlet), a little 2 hp blower, and a shop central vac that all vent to the outside. I also live in New England, it was 12 degrees this morning. Running 120 pieces of wood through the rip saw today was OK, because it was the little blower and the shop vac. Planing both sides of the wood, using the big blower, was cold. The shop ended up at 48 degrees when I left for lunch. The radiant heat brings the temperature right back up again. Recirculating dusty air to save heat is a false economy. Breathable air needs to be clean of the finest dust, and OSHA doesn't regulate it. Furthermore, a lot of what is cut in shops is plastic, and the health impacts of recirculating fine plastic dust into shop air should be considered. Harold
I think venting to the outside is a great concept because there would be no filter to clean. However, that air has to be replaced somehow and the replacement air will be unconditioned air from the outside. I don't think you can ignore the cost of conditioning the replacement air. Also I think their will be a lot more health threatening dust in the air that escapes from the tool than would be recirculated by modern, pleated filters. There is even a stronger argument if you live in a cold climate. Within about 30 minutes of turning on my cyclone DC, the temperature in my 24'x48' shop will have gone up 5 degrees.
I was in another woodworker’s shop a few months back noticed his simple DC system. He had a two hp Griz two-bagger. He removed the unit from the base, got rid of the bags and the stand that holds them then mounted it on a shelf near the ceiling. Ran the output from the fan housing through the wall and just let the dust fly. Not sure, what the neighbors thought of the dust pile but he said his dogs loved to play in it. When I ask him if he had to haul it off, he said, “Na, mother nature takes care of it”. His shop is in an attached garage in a residential neighborhood with postage stamp sized lots so I am not sure where the dust ends up. I guess it blows around or floats off when it rains. I don’t think I could get away with it but it seems to work for him.
I used to blow the shavings and dust into a pile. A blueberry farmer would haul it away. Now I have a 4' x 4' x 8' box on a trailer that acts as a cyclone, catching the big stuff, and the finer dust goes out on the ground. Since my nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, it's not a problem. I think it's healthier for the chickens (whom I work making shavings for) to have less dust. Calculating air flow, comfort, insulation, heat loss, and dust levels in a small shop is difficult. Trial and error, with a will to improve and change, has yielded better results for me, because the scale is so small. After 24 years of working in wood shops, I have found that dust collection can always be improved. The worst system I have used in a shop was grain bags and a shovel. Harold
I'm surprised that I didn't see any mention of moisture levels in this discussion. When you're bringing in unconditioned air from outside to replace that removed by the DC, you're going to change the ambient moisture level in the shop as well as the temperature. Here in Minnesota you're going to be bringing in lots of moisture in the summer, much akin to taking your kiln-dried lumber and storing it outside. In the winter you're going to be bringing in already dry outdoor air at possibly -30F temperature and then raising the temperature of that air close to 100 degrees, a sure method of creating bone-dry conditions not good for the wood you've got in your shop or the projects you're working on.
Don't jump on the Pentz Cyclone Bandwagon just yet...
Fine wood dust is terrible for you, and piles of larger dust around the shop is unsafe. Dust collection is a must.
Cyclone vs. Single stage collector make very little difference unless you're really willing to invest time and money into the entire system. All the ports on your machines will need to be upgraded, you'll need a fairly significant amount of ducting wye's and blast gates. Non of these are cheap. Further good cyclones are expensive, and require 220V power. In most cases an under power cylcone is no better than a two stage dust collector.
Anyway here is my take: If you are not willing to upgrade your ports (and use an overhead blade guard on your table saw), then your not going to capture all the fine dust anyway and the extra cost of the cyclone is a waste. You can buy a bag collector with a cannister filter for way less and invest in a good mask (which you should anyway).
Buster
I've had a clear vue for about 2 years 5hp 6" pvc to all machines. it has made woodworking much more enjoyable.
do be aware the clear vue is a kit type... you need to do some stuff yourself. not hard but it's a diy.
another thing is it's way noisy. you though a shop vac could make some noise; my wife calls it the jet airplane vacuum thingie.
it will suck a golf ball off the floor straight up 7' and down the tubing. this will make a horrible racket at which time your 4 year old will hi-tail it out of the shop acting like he has done nothing.
good luck
Hi SleepyD
do you have your clear vue in a room or is it open to your shop? I've looked at the photos on the web site about noise controll. just wondering if I should go through the hassle of soundproofing it or just put it up and live with the noise?
Auto
mine is open to my shop.
I have debated doing something about it; I know the clear v site has some really creative solutions.
eventually I will try something but for the last 2 years I have lived with the noise. I always have my hearing protection on when in the shop so it's not such a big deal for me.
one thing to remember is when you move that much air through the pipe it makes noise so your going to have some noise no matter what you do.
having a adequate dust collection system is a good thing. If you have never had a dedicated system it's a huge step up. with all the info on the web now days it's really easy to make something of industrial quality.
good luck
I agree that you will have SOME noise but it does not have to be even a small annoyance!
I have my "unit" in a sound proofed "dog house" behind my shop and I can even stand right next to it and have a normal conversation. In the shop the sound is barely noticeable. It's a 3 HP model and without the sound proofing it is obnoxious!!!
I can't imagine any type of DC INSIDE of a shop without at least some attempt to mitigate the noise.
The "egg carton" foam I used was MOST EFFECTIVE and very reasonable in cost.
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
I would love to sound proof mine but I just don't have a spot to do it. I'm going to have to make mine free standing and then try to enclose it.
How do you know when your dust bin is full? did you do a switch or what?
My dust bin is rather large!! LOL
Actually I don't "collect" the stuff, I just "extract" it and it blows into a pile behind the shop. I know this is not for everyone but it sure beats dealing with the stuff over and over again!!
I have a home-made muffler just behind the unit and a 10 ft. pipe behind that. It really is a beautiful (and quiet) thing to behold!! LOL
It's decidedly LOW TECH but it works great!
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
That would be the ideal;<!----><!----><!---->
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But my shop also houses the boiler for the house. So If I vented outside while the boiler was running and in Minnesota it tends to run a bit in the winter I would be sucking boiler exhaust back into the house. <!----><!---->
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I did some volume related calculations on CFM and a decent collection system running at 800 CFM can move a lot of air. It does not take long to move all the air in a shop. <!----><!---->
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At 800 CFM it should only take like 10 mins or so to move all the air in my shop I think? I’m not sure this is how it works but seem to be correct.<!----><!---->
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If your shop is insulated and heated and your exhausting it outside your sucking all kinds of mold and insulation and who knows what through every crook and cranny. This is exactly why HVAC guys say you want positive pressure inside your home. You don’t want to suck air through the structure; it’s considered unhealthy for the occupants. <!----><!---->
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But if you live in a moderate climate and just have a detached shop without heating or insulation then hey I would love to blow it out the back door. But for me filtering with a high quality hepa and dealing with chips is a cost of my fun.<!----><!---->
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Yeah, I live North of Seattle about an hour. It's definitely what you would call "moderate" (most of the time). My shop is insulated and heated but I certainly would not call it "tight"!! I heat with a wood stove/box fan and get the wood free from our property. My DC rarely runs for more than a few minutes at a time except when planing stock for a large project. I don't notice a heat loss on those occasions.
Were I back East I would certainly do things much differently! I was raised in WI and I can only imagine what it takes in insulation and heat source to make a shop comfortable there in Jan.!
Warm regards!
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
ok here's what i did. Since the top bag of a 2 bagger lets dust back into the air, i eliminated it. Made a tight fitting top with mdf, put a pcv elbow inside to act as a baffle, and vented it outside. No more dust in shop.
Does it suck all the heat out or create a vacuum in the shop reducing efficiency? No. maybe those things would happen if it ran 24/7, but for short bursts like a home woodworker uses, its perfect.
Now if the green people are sceaming, most of the dust goes into the lower bag and lets face it, you return the dust back to the environment anyway when you discard it. As long as the outside fine dust is not blowing near people, the invisible dust is quickly dispersed. Its an economical way to convert a 2 bagger into something that works better than the best cyclone
Edited 1/20/2009 5:01 pm ET by jasesq
I agree with much of what is posted here. I have a clear view cyclone and love it. As a contractor when I am doing production work I create alot of dust in a hurry. Now I can rip 10 sheets of MDF I have vurtually no dust in the shop. I am building 10 recess panel columns from Azek right now. I ripped panels, routed styles and rails, ripped the rails to width, and generated a garbage can full of dust and shavings. I have a hood on my chop saw, my router box, and my table saw. About the only sweepings I had to deal with were the panel triming I did with my circular saw before ripping on the table saw. If you end up with a dust bag collector, put it outside so you do not have to breath the small particles that it blows through.
Dwight
Thanks for all the great advice!!
I Decided to buy a clearvue DC which I ordered on Mon and should be here Fri. Very excited to get it and try it out.
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