Replies

1. 
   joinerswork | Nov 15, 2005 01:03am | #1

   Yogi,

   I generally reuse the old ones if they are in good shape.  If the piece was assembled originally with hide glue, you need only to recoat with more of the same prior to assembly.  If the dowels are damaged, then you should replace with new.  Problem is, many store-bought dowel rods are undersized, or out of round, so custom fitting can add to the time/expense of what looks like an easy repair.

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

1. 
   Yogi | Nov 15, 2005 04:04am | #2

   Ray-

   <<< "...Problem is, many store-bought dowel rods are undersized, or out of round, so custom fitting can add to the time/expense of what looks like an easy repair...">>>

   Actually, the only problem is that nothing I do is easy to begin with, let alone after after I think I've figured it out-  Dunno if it was hide glue-  I check for that with water, right?  I've never used the stuff, but don't it's benefits include a long working time?  That would also be handy, although I've been thinking in terms of epoxy or dynamite or something similar-  There are two sizes of dowels plus some broken tenons-  Anyway, thank you for your reply-  Much obliged-

    

1. 
   joinerswork | Nov 15, 2005 03:42pm | #3

   Yogi,

   Old hide glue has often crystallized, looks a little like light brown sugar in the joint, or dried Karo syrup.  Yes, warm water will immediately start to soften it.  Store-bought liquid hide glue has a looong working time.  The old timey hot hide glue is less forgiving, although, if you talk to the fellow at Bjorn Industries (ad in FWW classifieds), he has various types that gel faster or slower. to suit your needs.

   Good luck,

   Ray Pine

   Edit: By the way, how are things down at Jellystone Park nowadays?  Getting into any of those pick-a nick baskets lately?

   Edited 11/15/2005 7:44 am ET by joinerswork

1. 
   Yogi | Nov 16, 2005 02:27am | #4

   Ray-  Thank you-  That sounds like the stuff I found on the tenons & dowels-  And I went to town today (changed clothes & the whole nine yards) & while there learned that hide glue is hard to find (nobody I talked to in three stores had ever heard of it) in Coeur d'Alene, Id-  Did find, however, Titebond's liquid hide glue in a tool store where the manager told me he'd never heard of it and didn't have any-  It says on the label it says it has a long open/working time which might be altered by temp and humidity-  It doesn't say how long is long to begin with, altered or otherwise-  But for the rear uprights, that chair would fit in my stove-  Thanks for your help-

   Edit-  It wasn't the pick-a nick baskets that made the whole thing go-  It was the tourist wallets-  I've moved on to uncut gem stones & pharmaceuticals-  Who suspects a fat bear? 

    

1. 
   John_D | Nov 16, 2005 06:57am | #5

   I've heard from some working luthiers that you can use gelatin in a pinch as a substitute for hide glue.  I don't know the details...

2. 
   Yogi | Nov 16, 2005 09:01am | #6

   I don't even know what a luthier is-

3. 
   John_D | Nov 16, 2005 09:34pm | #9

   Sorry, I didn't mean to use jargon.  A luthier is one who makes stringed instruments, and as a long-time musician I'm used to talking with people for whom that is a common term.

   Anyway, I know several musical instrument makers who say that regular gelatin can be mixed and used as a hide glue substitute.  I've not seen any other woodworker endorse or dispute the idea.

4. 
   Yogi | Nov 16, 2005 09:53pm | #10

   Well, there you have it-  I learn something every day-  Hide glue is reputedly great for "crackling"-  Any idea what that means?  Thanks-

5. 
   John_D | Nov 16, 2005 10:13pm | #12

   Not sure if this is what you mean by crackling, but if you put hide glue on a piece of glass, when it dries it can actually fracture the surface decoratively.  If you put it on a flat wood surface, I don't know what happens.  Hopefully more experienced folks will answer you!

6. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 17, 2005 08:44pm | #17

   Crackling in a faux finishing technique in which a new surface is made to look old; if you cover a surface with a film of hide glue, followed by paint, the paint will "fail" in places, giving the finish the look of an older piece.

   Re: unflavored gelatin as a substitute for hide glue, unflavored gelatin is essentially a highly refined version of hide glue. It works - I've tried it for veneering.

    -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

7. 
   Yogi | Nov 17, 2005 10:55pm | #19

   Who'd have thunk it?  Thank you, I have much to learn-  Much obliged-

2. 
   Yogi | Nov 16, 2005 09:02am | #7

   Ray-  For all that, is hide glue even a best choice for furniture?  I've used a lot of different glues, but not that one-

1. 
   joinerswork | Nov 16, 2005 04:26pm | #8

   Yogi,

   For repair of antiques it is the best. You don't have to scrupulously clean the old joints, as the new glue is compatable with the old, they melt right together.

   Hide glue's drawback is also its advantage- it is readily soluble in water.  That means that high moisture will cause veneers  for example to loosen.  But it also means that it is easily repairable.

   Many period antiques are still holding together after hundreds of years of use.  If they loosen up, you can reglue.  What's not to like?

   I like the hot better than liquid variety, I think it's stronger, and it set up faster, but that's a personal preference.

    

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

1. 
   Yogi | Nov 16, 2005 09:58pm | #11

   Ray-  Is hide glue still commonly used to assemble furniture?  I'm wondering if in fact this is hide glue in the event that the chair is not so old as all that-

1. 
   joinerswork | Nov 17, 2005 01:43am | #13

   Yogi,

   It was in common use up to WWII at least.  At least one shop,  Va Craftsmen, used hide glue into the 70's when I worked there, probably til they closed their doors in the 80's.

   I don't believe it is used much for commercial (production) work nowadays tho.

   If in doubt, do a hot water test.

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

2. 
   Yogi | Nov 17, 2005 03:45am | #14

   Ray-  I ran a tenon under warm water, and if it softened up, it certainly wasn't much-  Color is right in places, almost clear in others-  Many of the dowels appear bare-  The inside of some of the dowel holes appear whitish-  Maybe I'll sand the dowels & tenons I'm keeping, clean the holes with the appropriate sized drill bit and proceed with the hide glue?  I've never used the stuff and like to familiarize myself with different methods- 

   Did the stuff go out of fashion due to production demands re time, or simply more efficient, stronger glues?

3. 
   joinerswork | Nov 17, 2005 04:46pm | #15

   Yogi,

   If the old glue didn't start to soften or at least get sticky on its surface after being wet down, then it's something other than hide glue.

   Be careful cleaning the joints, you want to scrape down to the wood surface without getting into the wood.  Every fiber of wood you remove, loosens the fit of the joint. On the other hand, different types of glue don't typically stick that well to each other.

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

    

4. 
   Yogi | Nov 17, 2005 08:01pm | #16

   Those were my thoughts-  Is there a reasonably effective, not-very-destructive method for cleaning the dowel holes?  I've replaced a number of the dowels, and can replace them all, for that matter-

5. 
   joinerswork | Nov 17, 2005 09:16pm | #18

    Is there a reasonably effective, not-very-destructive method for cleaning the dowel holes? 

   Yogi,

   I usually use a drill bit the correct size, hand powered, to keep from boogering up the wood.

   Ray Pine

6. 
   Yogi | Nov 17, 2005 10:56pm | #20

   Ray-  That's all I could think of, too-  Thank you-  I'm ON it!

7. 
   snoopy | Nov 18, 2005 02:46am | #21

   Used hide glue to repair some ca 1934 Thomasville dinning chairs abt 10 years ago.  Longer work period-could make up for mistakes and it's still holding strong.  Got it at Sears!

8. 
   Yogi | Nov 18, 2005 08:03am | #22

   Can't argue with success-  Reckon I'll try some-  Much obliged-