Replies

1. 
   harrycu | Mar 15, 2008 03:30am | #1

   ...and I do like box joints...

   Harry

    

   Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
1. 
   joinerswork | Mar 15, 2008 05:49am | #2

   harry,

   This smacks of your  tag line.  Gluing after assembly, and assuming that the glue is wicking far enough into the joint, to provide "adequate" strength, is  following the path of least resistance indeed.

   Relying on glue to swell the end grain of a finger joint to be equal to dovetailing, is  like relying on the value of your real estate to be equal to the interest rate of your ARM.  A couple years from now it might not be what you think it will.

   Ray

1. 
   Glaucon | Mar 15, 2008 04:28pm | #3

   Not sure Ray. I prefer the DT because of its appearance, but I'm not convinced that a box joint is much weaker, given the surface area for gluing. I haven't seen many fail, and in some applications, such as large carcasses, it can be pleasing look. I'd be interested if anyone has actually tested the joint- eg DTs, vs "standard" box joint vs "wicked glue" box joints. I'm thinking it would probably hold up pretty well.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   mufti | Mar 15, 2008 10:06pm | #5

              Please, PLEASE do not make those sort of suggestions! We will have a plethora of quasi-meaningful articles to bore by.

   Any well made joint is good for the purpose intended. Beyond that lies trouble.

1. 
   Glaucon | Mar 16, 2008 12:04am | #6

   If they bore you don't read them. What bores me is when someone tells me not to make suggestions.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   mufti | Mar 17, 2008 02:09pm | #12

              That depends on whether I am paying for them or not. Browsers of magazines make choices on a random basis but subscribers perhaps display a different perspective.

   On the second point the word please is related to a plea, not an instruction, and in this instance the remark was made in fun bearing in mind FW has printed many comparisons which I hope are intended to entertain since the technical value has been light. 

2. 
   joinerswork | Mar 17, 2008 04:47pm | #14

   Glaucon,

   I wasn't faulting the box joint per se, but the practice described in the cited article, which recommended assembling the joint, then wicking glue into it.  Further, the swelling action of the glue on the end grain of the joints was likened to the effect of a dovetail, on resisting pulling force.  Seemed overly optimistic to me, having seen many  failed furniture repair attempts where the same technique, and logic, was used...  YMMV, of course.

   The first image that comes to my mind, in thinking of the finger, or box joint, is that of the old wooden ammo crates.  They sure perfermed well for the purpose.

   Ray

1. 
   Glaucon | Mar 17, 2008 04:59pm | #15

   I agree Ray. I wouldn't use a box joint for a drawer. But it seems to work fine on boxes and for some carcass work.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   [email protected] | Mar 17, 2008 05:33pm | #17

   The glue in question is designed as a wicking glue.  It has a low viscosity, and does wick into cracks.  And, it does wick into the end grain and swell the wood.  On failed chair joints, the wood has been mechanically compressed by the loads on the joint, and the swelling retightens the joint. 

   It was developed to repair chairs without disassembly.  I have used it in that application, and it works well. 

   Will it work on finger joints?  I'm not going to try it for that, at least on new construction.  But, if I need to try and fix something with finger joints, or even dovetails, I might just to see. 

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Mar 15, 2008 09:14pm | #4

   Are you saying that the box joint will fail when the glue fails, whereas the dovetail can still bear a load without glue?  There's much talk about the repairability of glued joints.  How long will a modern glue hold two pieces of wood together, given that the joint is fitted properly?  50 years?  100 years?  Indefinately?Chris @ flairwoodworks

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

1. 
   danmart | Mar 16, 2008 12:53am | #7

   How long will a modern glue hold two pieces of wood together, given that the joint is fitted properly?  50 years?  100 years?  Indefinately?

   Why leave this to question? Don't use a glue that is not repairable without getting rid of every trace of the glue. Use a repairable glue that has been around for 1000 years and you can repair with a little heat and moisture. Finger joints are strong. Use hide glue and make it easy for the guy 50 years from now to repair it without taking it apart.

   It's not complicated. Avoid these glues that promise things we don't have the time to prove.

    

1. 
   saschafer | Mar 16, 2008 02:10am | #8

   "Why leave this to question?"

   Why not? If you never ask questions, you never learn anything new.

   -Steve

    

   Edited 3/15/2008 7:11 pm ET by saschafer

2. 
   Lataxe | Mar 16, 2008 02:15pm | #9

   Steve and Dan,

   Sadly the question of glue longevity is moot; just about all the finger-jointed thangs will be binned by mad consumer folk, intent on getting the next fashion in finger-jointed thangs next month.

   One wishes it were not so but we are kidding ourselves if we think we are all building heirloom furniture.  Of course, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to make the stuff as though it will be around in a hundred years or so - heirloom quality. 

   Lataxe, watching the river of change break its banks.

3. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 16, 2008 10:10pm | #10

   Just finishing 6 drawers for a carcass as we speak. Hand cut DT's up front and box joints for rear. Even though the box joints may hold in the front.. I opt to take the insurance with that lock joint and glue.

   I have probably repaired 100 + cheap drawers from baths and kitchens over 30 years for friends and acquaintances from work. In every case they failed in the front. And the cheap was not DT's or box joints for sure. Why.. because young children love to do chin-ups on drawers when mom and dad aren't looking. And that force is mainly down-force IMO.

   So.. my DT's and box are tested by clamping the drawer on my work-bench un-glued. I hang 75 lbs. of weights attached to a nylon strap with an S hook on top. Hang the S over the drawer top on each side.. then give it some good tugs. If it holds.. ready for glue.

   I don't think side forces come into play with drawers. But.. I suppose they could under unusual circumstances, but don't have any major concern. Once the drawer passes my down-force test, I expect it to last a long time.

   Could the glue fail in 100 years? I don't know. Hopefully Tite-bond has a life-time warranty and who-ever has to deal with it can call customer service to have someone come out and fix it. I will probably not be as concerned at that point as the day I glue them and expect them to hold till after I'm long gone. ha.. ha... ha..ha..

   Sarge..  

   
4. 
   Jfrostjr | Mar 17, 2008 03:43pm | #13

   Sarge - 75# - you are a tough taskmaster !! I guess I shouldn't complain because the standards you set are for yourself. That's a real good test.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

5. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 17, 2008 07:30pm | #18

   #75 lbs. just makes common sense to me Frosty. That would be about the optimum weight of a child before they hopefully have the intelligence to understand the consequences they had been warned of by mom and dad.

   The old excuse of... "the wind must have blown it" just doesn't work after a child reaches 5-6 yrs. and I calculate around 75 lbs. with a guess. Ain't nothing I do too scientific as I just rely on common sense for the most part. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Regards...

   Sarge..

6. 
   joinerswork | Mar 17, 2008 10:22pm | #20

   Hey Sarge,

   One shop I worked in, the excuse was, "It just fell off."  Fella would come walking out of the finishing room with a finial in one hand, and the stem in the other:  "It just fell off."  Drawer front in one hand, big gash across one corner, the other 3 sides of the drawer in the other hand, mashed to a geometric shape never seen before.  "Just fell off."   Ogee foot in splinters: "It just fell off."  Never, I broke it/ dropped it/ hit it on the top of the spray booth.

   Ray

2. 
   joinerswork | Mar 17, 2008 05:00pm | #16

   Chris,

   Well, there is the mechanical aspect of the dovetail joint, sure.  But I was referring to the, in my opinion only, overly optimistic theory that glue will wick fully into an already assembled joint.  I've seen many failed joints; poor fitting is often the fault in old work, insufficient qty of glue is usually the culprit in new.

   I don't pretend to know the answer to your question about glue longevity.  Certainly there are examples of old work that have held together for hundreds of years. 

   Like the fellow who was asked, "Have you lived here all your life?"  He answered, "Nope.  Not yet."  The oldest glue joints I have personally made here, are pushing 40 yrs old, put together with Elmer's white glue.  Glue lines in panels, and rabbet jointed chest corners, haven't failed...yet.

   Ray

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 17, 2008 07:39pm | #19

   I have glue going on drawer box joints in the rear and DT's in the front tomorrow, Ray. I placed a small order yesterday with Highland WW'ing for some finish supplies which will be here tomorrow UPS. I could have and thought about including a 4 oz. bottle of the "Chair Doctors" glue from LV as they carry it after reading this thread.

   But.. on second thought... I will wait about 50 years to just how well it wicks into the joint.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Have a good day as I got your original point...

   Sarge..

2. 
   joinerswork | Mar 17, 2008 10:29pm | #21

   Sarge,

   Same shop as above post, a fellow was working away at dressing down the dovetail pins on drawers to a highboy, when a customer, very highbrow fluty-voiced sort of lady ('member "Mrs Hathaway" on the old Beverly Hillbillies?) comes thru on a tour of the shop.  "And what are you doing, my good man?"

   "Aww, jes' cleanin' m'drawers," was the reply, before the fellow realised what had come out his mouth, and turned red to the tips of his ears.

   Hope your wife appreciates the care and attention you are giving her drawers.  And while you are at it, best not twiddle too much, with those knobs on her chest.

   Ray

3. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Mar 17, 2008 11:03pm | #22

   Ray,

   Never a dull moment.  Another entry in the Best of Knots.

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

4. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 18, 2008 03:54am | #23

   First.. great stories... Kids are amazing and I suppose it carries over to some adults it appears. With those that have an excuse for everything, it is pretty obvious they have not cycled through the military where excuse is not nomenclature.

   The other one I used to hear was... "maybe Aunt Laurie did it". Aunt Laurie lives 65 miles away! ha..ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Those knobs are going to get a real twittling as they may be the high-point of the whole simple piece. Normally I'm a foot-man, but decided to target knobs this time around.

   BTW.. my wife claims I'm a very naughty boy.. but there is no truth to it what-so-ever.. :>)

   Regards...

   Sarge..

5. 
   [email protected] | Mar 18, 2008 04:51am | #24

   When I was three I found my Mom's pinking shears, and made a two inch long cut into the edge of a blanket to see if they really cut zig-zags.  (Luckily it was a blanket and not a bed spread.)

   I was unsuccessful in my attempt to blame it on Mr. Nobody.  Mr. Nobody was a mischievous ghost on one of the cartoon shows I watched, who went around doing things that got blamed on people who hadn't done them.   I figured it was a great excuse. 

6. 
   Glaucon | Mar 18, 2008 05:00am | #25

   Funny. I had three sisters and a brother: Anne, Karen, Laura and Mr. Nobody. Didn't work for me either.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

7. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 18, 2008 06:22am | #26

   Kids will be kids and that is OK.. They haven't changed much in the destruction department. But.. I think they have in other areas. I hear and read reports of young kids are over-weight quite often. A National Health dilemma they say.

   What they don't say is that the kids don't run their *ss off at recess anymore. They play Ipod games and talk on the cell phone before mom picks them up and drives them through Mac D's for an afternoon snack of fat and cholesterol in lieu of making something a little more nutritious at home. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   I suppose I better hush before I really get cranked up... I will leave it at kid's will be kids.

   Regards...

   Sarge..

   Edited 3/17/2008 11:23 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47

8. 
   joinerswork | Mar 18, 2008 04:55pm | #27

   Sarge,

   Every shop I've worked in had its share of bonafide characters, beginning with shop class in high school-except for my current one (I work alone!).  I suppose that's true of any of the trades, but the fumes from the finishing room might have some effect on those really eccentric types!

   Ray

9. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 18, 2008 06:51pm | #28

   I believe that to be correct about all professions have their characters as it is definitely true in the automotive related jobs. From salesmen to body shop.. mechanics.. parts people.. racing.. restorers there are the characters and they don't take long to detect being "the character".

   And your job may have one also... just nobody around to detect the fact.. :>)

   Regards...

   Sarge..

10. 
    KiddervilleAcres | Mar 18, 2008 07:08pm | #29

    Hey Sarge,

    Would say that Ray is the character here on Knots?!

    Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

11. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Mar 18, 2008 07:41pm | #30

    I would say Bob.. that Ray is "one" of the characters. I do believe that when you mention "characters" around this joint.. you better plan on a larger podium. Now.. If I had a choice of "Who" would contribute to building a sturdier, larger podium... then Ray comes to mind again and would make that list also.

    So... credit given where credit is due and you can throw in the fact that a man with that professional capability who will endorse a drill press attachment to do mortise and tenons is a bit of a character based on that one factor alone. Much less the other funny things he will spew without much advance warning. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

    Regards...

    Sarge.. who has to get to work cleaning up drawers down in the bunker 

    Edited 3/18/2008 12:43 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47

12. 
    joinerswork | Mar 18, 2008 08:04pm | #31

    Bob,

    To quote Curly Howard:  "Hey!  I resemble that remark!" 

    Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk,

    Ray

2. 
   terrylee86 | Mar 17, 2008 05:20am | #11

   Wood magazine (or PW )ran a joint test a couple issues ago and the strongest joint for drawer box construction was a box joint by far.  The dovetail joint was near the bottom.  The authors were as surprised as I was.  I just can't come to making drawers with box joints.  Don't like making them, don't like their looks.  Their results concluded that the more surface area to a joint the stronger it is (big surprise) Through M-T joints were stronger than shouldered M-T joints because the tenon had more surface area.  Half laps were stronger then shouldered M-T, but I am not using half laps on my cabinet doors.  We use what is strong and what we like.