I just spent a wonderful evening once again at my local woodworking club in Illinois.
I’m a retired woodworking teacher of 35 years. I really enjoyed our speaker tonight. He is also a member and retired. He was nervous, yet well prepared. He talked about cutting dovetails. Gosh, I/we already “been there and done that”. I shouda been bored or gone home. No, I enjoyed myself. He did great!
Our speaker suggested cutting pins first because he thought it was easier to outline a pin with a knife than if one were to cut the tails first.
I know, this is one of the oldest “ways to skin a cat” that there ever was. BUT, it will be fun to read your replies to your preference.
Remember, I thought I would be bored with our club speaker, I was wrong. I wanna read your reply and preference too. Don’t be bored with this post.
Heck, by the end of this thread….we’ll prolly have the solution to the “ultimate question ??????” It will be “Written in Stone” hehe
Let’s talk about our dovetail preference of layout…..what comes FIRST??? Pins or tails…..most important……..WHY?????
Yo,
DonC
Edited 9/17/2009 12:59 am ET by DonC
Replies
Ever since watching Frank Klausz, I'm a dedicated pins first & pencil kinda guy. ;-)
That said, I think the method you choose is not nearly as important as perfecting that method. Either way works just fine once you're good at it. Pretty much the same for any fork in the road -- just pick one and do it well.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Pins first for me. It's easier to transfer the marks to the tail board when using narrow pins.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Don,
In deciding on pins or tails, I check to see what day it is. Mon, Wed and Fri, and Sun. I do tails first. Tues, Thurs, Sat, I do pins first. Unless it is raining, in which case I work indoors. My dovetail saw is wired for 220 and it would be dangerous to use in the rain. I got the electric dovetail saw from a guy who was also selling electric forks. I already had an electric knife, so I got one of those too.
Now, you were not specific in asking about pins or tails first. Are you talking just through dovetails, or are you also talking secret dovetails and the houndstooth pattern. I just love to do secret dovetails using the houndstooth pattern. I find it to be "understated elegance".
Can't wait to hear what everyone else does. I love this topic. I thought it was old, but you have found a way to make it fresh again. I have been trying to figure out a way of switching between pins and tails as I cut the joint. Also, I have seen people put multiple boards together and cut the tails on multiple pieces at once. I am working on a way to do that with pins. I am going to develop a jig to help out, and am planning to sell it commercially. So far, I am having a difficult time getting the price down to below that of the new Unisaw.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
> I just love to do secret dovetails using the houndstooth pattern.> I find it to be "understated elegance".
<30-second pause while my brain reboots>
Sir, I am staggered by your ability to skewer so many things at once -- that was a veritable shish-kebab.
Humbly agape,/dev
/dev,
Glad you got a kick out of my attempt at humor.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Don,
I am dedicated to tails first, for the simple reason I can cut two or more drawer sides at once. This not only saves cutting time, but layout time as well. I know that some do the "layout" by eye, and I do too, if the piece I'm reproducing has obviously eye spaced dovetails.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Don,
I like tails first and prefer a sharp pencil over a marking knife. I find it easier to mark the pin board from the tail board, especially with half blinds.
However, being in the tails first camp, I don't cut multiple tail boards. Perhaps it's because I do this for a hobby and don't need to save the time. Lately, though, I'm thinking quality could be improved cutting two at a time as it seems this would provide a better reference for keeping the cut at 90 degrees to the face of the board - particularly if you are using thin stock for drawer sides (3/8 or narrower.)
I wonder how others feel about that???
Frank
Frankfive,
Yup, your correct. Also saves time on layout lines.
don,
dovetailing came to me by way of brother tage. he was a pins first fellow hence, so am i. many of the ways and methods that i use to do what i do, are done so because that's the way i learned to do it. if the method is improved, by way of good advice, and me rising to the occasion, this is also learning and tends to be the way i keep on doing. many's the time my ways of doing were found to be wanting. taking good advice and improving the skill is just plain fun/learning.
eef
eef, do you also use a dovetail hammer from time to time as your brother did?
dave,
dovetail hammer? as in "when a mallet ought to be used"? the book from which my instruction was gleaned, shows mr. frid using a mallet as he chops out the waste.
eef
Back in the early 80s I was taking a woodworking class at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Tage Frid came to talk to the class and he demonstrated cutting dovetails. We all watched in amazement as he made it look so easy. After completing the joint and assembling it he looked around the room. the professor (Skip Johnson) asked him what he was looking for. He replied, "A dovetail hammer." This had all of us including the prof stumped. All of the sudden, Mr. Frid smiled, walked over to the tool board and grabbed a claw hammer. He gave one of the pins a few whacks. Then he held up the hammer and said with a big grin, "Dovetail hammer."
dave,
very good. i hear he was very much the clown. never met the man. his tutorials have been so helpful to me that i feel as if i know him. thanks for sharing that cool story.
eef
Dave,Was the dovetail hammer used to mushroom a too-narrow pin?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 9/18/2009 7:17 pm by flairwoodworks
Either too narrow a pin or the angle was off just slightly. We didn't see the joint up close until after he gave it the 'treatment'. He went on to say that some of woodworking was being able to fix (cover up?) mistakes.
You know I've never actually seen a long heated discussion on Pins vs. Tails...
I learned from Rob Cosman, he's an interesting guy. One of the things I do like about his methods is he'll say this is what I do and why I do it. He's extremely good as well...
I if remember correctly it has to do with our sawing ability. Given the right LN dovetail saw (ha ha, actually he stresses a pistol grip saw for beginners), most people can saw a vertical cut. He demos this by pulling beginners out of the crowd (including me at one point) and getting them to cut vertical cuts without reference and the measures them against a square. 95% of them are bang on. Cutting at an angle is much more difficult.
The idea is if you cut your tails first, all you have to be is square to the wood. The actual angle of the tail is somewhat irrelevant. Now the pin angles you have to worry about, but you know you can cut very close to vertical so you only have to focus on the angle and make sure your on the waste side of the line. Only two things to think about... if you did pins first you'd have to concern yourself with three (being square, correct angle, and waste...)
But when it's all said and done it's the end product. The only people that should concern themselves with Pins vs. tails are the people having trouble.
The only real piece of advice I would have is to get yourself a good sharp and properly set dovetail saw.
Buster
Pins first and a pencil. Tails first forces you to use a knife and make marks in a very confined space. Somebody above mentioned they cut tails first and use a pencil to mark the pins. Well, I'd like to see that - those would have to be some pretty nice-sized pins, right?
With pins first, you can mark with what you like and you can see where you're going.
I like that, personally.
Edited 9/17/2009 4:11 pm ET by CStanford
Sorry, what's the advantage of a pencil? I've seen it mentioned twice.
I use a pencil to mark the tails (first) since acuracy isn't as important... but a knife to mark the pins.
http://www.leadholder.com/index-point.html
I use a lead sharper designed for draftsman's lead holders. You get such a sharp point you actually have to dull it a bit before use.
I'm sadly very specific about my shop pencils. I only use good quality pencils, not necessarily top end... but good quality.I'm still looking for the advantage of using a pencil over a knife...
"I'm still looking for the advantage of using a pencil over a knife..."
Just wait a few years & you'll "see" what the advantages of a pencil are. ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Sorry, what's the advantage of a pencil? I've seen it mentioned twice.
I use a pencil to mark the tails (first) since acuracy isn't as important... but a knife to mark the pins
Hi Buster,
I'm not sure there is an advantage to using a pencil. It's just a preference. I find there is a point where the pencil line ends and the material to be removed starts and I tend to "see" that as a very crisp line and cut to it. Others prefer a knife line.
It's one of those things where there is no right or wrong as long as you develop a technique that works consistantly for you.
Frank
The only advantage I can think of is that they're easy to maintain. :-)
Listen, Buster, (I'm not mad at you - it just sounded good!)I like using a pencil to transfer marks because it is easier to see. Sure the knife drops a precise line right at the point of intersection, but that isn't necessarily where you should drop the saw. As I learned in the "Fitting Dovetails" thread, knowing where to drop the saw is perhaps more important than being able to saw a straight line. As long as my pencil mark is a equidistant from the edge of the pins (I cut pins first), I'm okay. I just set the saw centered on the mark, or just over, or wherever need be.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>but a knife to mark the pins.<I find on walnut a knife line ( or chisel mark ) disappears because the end grain just self heals and it is very hard to see the line.Knifing the side of the board from the pins is easier to see. Though harder to cut to as was wisely mentioned above.Jim Kingshott that I mentioned in another thread lately, would take a swipe with a big hunk of chalk all over the end grain then knife the pins from the tails, or maybe he would just lay them out, in any case easier to see knife line on end grain when cutting dark wood if calked first.Here is some thing for us perfectionist worry worts to keep us up late at night. ( there must be one or two others besides just me ) Doesn't the chalk dull the saws and chisels to some degree ? It is soft but is stone powder all the same. Cliffs of Dover and all that.Worry and fret, worry and fret, worry and fretAs far as which first, P or T, I switch off because I haven't cut so many that I have a big cut in stone habit. Some joints as was said earlier demand a certain order for ease such as half blind on thinner material mark the pins from the tails.My last mistake that I made. God, lets see . . . it has been years and years now . . .: )was on a miniature sample drawer. I decided to start out with a " new fool proof " method I had never used before because it made so much sense and was so straight forward. What could go wrong ?It was to use a dovetail edge chisel to slide down the side of a tail to mark the pin board. then tap with a mallet to make a mark.My imagined and some what real problem that I had and was solving by using this chisel marking method was on small dovetails. My sharp and thin marking knife would shave off a bit of the tail when getting in there to mark the pins thus under cutting the tail and making the pins too fat.Well the first pins I marked with the chisel, then couldn't see the mark properly and cut to what I thought was the mark. It wasn't and I cut the pin too narrow. Hardly any but I switched back to my method I was using before the chisel and the rest of the drawer came out perfect. Naturally: )Albeit with more paring to fix the fat pins here and there.When I hand that sample to people I just poke the nice sides at them and no one has seemed to notice the flaw.Shame too because the cool red grain in the camphor wood side was on that same flawed drawer side.See pic. It is the half pin on the bottom of the half blind end of the drawer ( front ). The half pin was marked and sawed too narrow.Yes I really do need to take the advice in the camera thread and buy a cool guy camera. Maybe next year.PS: I think at the time I briefly considered tapping in a sliver of wood but just couldn't seem to be able to hold and hammer such a fine sliver and gave up. Would those among you who were recomending this be able to do it on this flaw ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 9/20/2009 12:48 am by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 9/20/2009 12:50 am by roc
>but a knife to mark the pins.<
"I find on walnut a knife line ( or chisel mark ) disappears because the end grain just self heals and it is very hard to see the line.
Knifing the side of the board from the pins is easier to see. Though harder to cut to as was wisely mentioned above".
I use an Exacta knife which is really hard to see on end dark end grain. And the reason I lightly run a pencil mark over the razor line on oak. I haven't worked with Walnut since the 90's but in that case in lieu of a pencil line traced in the thin knife line.. I would place a sharp chisel on the knife line and tap it very gently.
Still somewhat hard to see but... not hard to feel. When you get ready to cut you feel the line and place the saw on it. The saw teeth will find the groove and once placed on it.. the chisel mark has created a slight kerf for the teeth registers on. It would require a total lack of concentration to miss the line on the first stroke once the saw is registered in that chisel line IMO.
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sarge,You have said a mouth full there. (meaning key, important info )In that case it may be important which way the chisel faces so the slope of the chisel mark is outside the pin.Seems like it would be easier to get a cross cut saw to track that line (drop into the chisel mark ) than a rip tooth saw. Do you use a cross or a rip ? Does it matter ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Cross cut or rip tooth... good thought. Hmmm... Thinking... Still thinking...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Sorry so long to respond, Roc. It's been flooding down south and my computer took a lightning hit early Monday morning. Just back up several hours ago.
I use a 19 T Irwin pull saw that is made in Japan for Irwin. Cross-cut I suppose with that many teeth and a very fine.. narrow keft and a back rib. I have used an English Gent saw.. and a LN Indepence DT saw which I sold about two years ago to get the $20 Irwin which I love. I personally prefer a pull saw over a push saw. One of those to each his own deals IMO,
The very narrow kerf is what does the trick in the chisel line when I use a chisel line.
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 9/23/2009 7:47 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Somebody above mentioned they cut tails first and use a pencil to mark the pins. Well, I'd like to see that - those would have to be some pretty nice-sized pins, right?
Hi C,
It was me who mentioned tails first and marking pin board with a pencil. Actually I think the pins are nicely proportioned and rather slim. It just so happens that I'm doing something of a photo journal on my current project and have pictures, so you do get to see it.
The first shows me marking the pins using a pencil. I'll be honest, I'm a pencil freak. I have like 20 pencils on my side bench in #2, #2-1/2 and #3 varieties, so there is always a ready-to-go sharp pencil.
This piece isn't finished yet, so I don't have the "Drawer half open" shot, showing the dovetails. I do have an accidental shot of the dovetails that came off a shot I took when veneering the drawer fronts. They're not cleaned up, but you can get a good idea of the proportions.
If the stars align properly, I'll be rubbing out the finish and doing the final assembly this weekend and will be able to get the final shot of the dovetails.
At least one other woodworker I respect does it this way too. There is a very good video here http://villagecarpenter.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.html
Look at Kari Hultman's June 25th Blog entry. She goes through her whole hand cut dovetail process which includes marking the tails first, by pencil, then marking the pin board from the tails she's cut. Nice work (and a groovy sound track!)
Frank
beautiful drawer frank. are the drawer sides sycamore? if so, what do you think of its properties? i have never worked it but am curious, as it's native to where i live.
thanks,
eef
Thanks Eef,
That drawer is hardly done though; it only has its first piece of veneer applied. But that was the only photo I had to show the dovetails.
Yes, that's sycamore. I love quarter sawn sycamore for drawer sides. Mainly because of the way it looks. There is a nice effect with the QS material that provides an understated iridescence, and it contrasts nicely when dovetailed to cherry, mahogany or walnut I've had very good success with it. For this project I also used it for the bottoms.
Around here, it's about $1/bf more than maple.
Frank
Pins first and a pencil. Tails first forces you to use a knife and make marks in a very confined space. Somebody above mentioned they cut tails first and use a pencil to mark the pins. Well, I'd like to see that - those would have to be some pretty nice-sized pins, right?
With pins first, you can mark with what you like and you can see where you're going.
I like that, personally.
Hi Charles
That is a good point. If you had not made it, I would have.
Nevertheless I still cut dovetails tails first. The advantage here is that you can more easily ensure that the initial rip cuts are perfectly square. This is the most important saw cut as far as I am concerned. Further, you can gang boards together - this not only increases the speed of constructing several sets of dovetails (drawers, etc), but it also makes accuracy easier. The down side is that you do need a thin marking knife blade for transfering the pins ... but then this is not a big issue for me ... heh!
A bookcase I knocked up for my waiting room (I must confess that it was done for my personal pleasure - totally unnecessary) ...
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
A bookcase I knocked up for my waiting room
You need to quit knocking up the bookcases.
Doesn't your wife ever jealous?
Tails first... exacto knife to mark....
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Tell me your strategy when marking out dovetails for a tall carcase piece using the tails-first method, assuming the traditional layout with the pins on the side pieces.Not a smart-a$$ question. I'd really like to know.
Edited 9/18/2009 11:25 am ET by CStanford
Charles,
You didn't ask me, but.
I clamp a straightedge on the tail board, right on the base line. Then the pieces are set up on edge on the bench and a pipe clamp is used to hold them in place. The advantage of this method is, nothing has to be balanced, and it is easy to compensate for pieces that haven't stayed perfectly flat. The attached photo shows it better than I can describe it.
Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com
That'll do it.I balance the pin board, as you pointed out. If I've been reasonably fastidious cutting the end square it's not too much of a bother.
Edited 9/18/2009 12:41 pm ET by CStanford
rob,
that image you posted of the method you use for laying out the pins makes me want to try tails first. thanks.
eef
Tell me your strategy when marking out dovetails for a tall carcase piece using the tails-first method, assuming the traditional layout with the pins on the side pieces.
Hi Charles
I'll give this a go ...
Actually, I am building a cabinet that is tallish compared to the sides, and have had to deal with this issue here. It was no big deal. The sides are 5'0" high and the top is 2'0" wide. I have used the same approach for dimensions that were scaled up on this.
As usual, I keep track of progress with a camera, so here are a few sequential shots of the dovetails being cut. Keep in mind that this is still a WIP.
Marking dovetails tails first ..
View Image
Sawing tails (tip: watch the reflection to gauge squareness) ..
View Image
Removing waste with fretsaw ...
View Image
Paring out the remaining waste ...
View Image
Marking pins from tail board (Tip: use a mitre clamp to steady the combination. This is especially important when the pin board is longer and the combination must be raised higher - then use a mitre clamp on each side) ..
View Image
A close up of knifing the pins. Good, healthy dovetails for this carcass!
View Image
Fretsawing the waste fromthe pin board ..
View Image
More of the cabinet later ..
Regards from Perth
Derek
Nice corner clamp.
That's a simple one... I only use DT's on drawers and an occasional secret miter DT for chest base rails. I can do them both ways. I do tails first because I was taught to do tails first in the 70's. No clue as to why that person decided on tails first as I didn't ask. Using them pretty much exclusively for drawers.... no need to fix what isn't broke. :>)
Edit.. I saw the system Rob and Derek posted. How I mark my drawers is similar. I drop the pin board between a twin screw and flush the end with the work-bench. Then place the tail board over it. I run a caul across the bench and clamp it down. Draw the lines with and Exacto. Then I run a very light pencil line in the severed line left by the Exacto blade.
So simllar to them but the fact still remains I don't use DT's on tall carcasses.
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 9/18/2009 1:08 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
BTW Charlie.. I got back down to my shop and thought of something I should have added when I said I can do them both ways. When and if anyone uses a secret miter DT.. you have no choice but to cut the pins first then mark tails after the rabbet has been cut. So.. even though I prefer tails first, necessity leads to pins first in that isolated case.
Back to the shop where M & T's await.. Mortise first and then tenon and BBQ to follow as it's Friday! :>
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
I cut a few tails first. Think I quit doing them that way when I first needed bifocals. Sumpin' about marking in those smallish pin sockets that leaves me cold at this point.
Since I don't have a deadline to meet Charlie.. it's all just part of the challenge to me. I probably spend more time with joinery than many as I love to cut joints for whatever reason. Nothing outstanding about what I build except I know personally it won't likely fall apart unless it rots to the ground.
Have a good week-end....
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
All,
Interesting that nobody has said they use Roy Underhill's method: Tails first, but lay out the pins after sawing, and before chopping, the tails. He places the just-sawn tailpiece on the pins piece and uses the saw, drawn thru its own kerf, to mark the pin placement.
Me, I'm a pins first guy, probably because that's the way I was first taught. I've been in shops where either one or the other, was "the way we always do them". While I'm aware that extremely narrow pins can be transferred from tiny tail sockets with dedicated knives, I'm reluctant to add another layer of fol-de-rol to the many I already have;-) It's easy enough to reach around the pin with a common pocket knoife blade, which I always have handy.
The exception to my pins-first rule (there's always an exception) is when the tail stock is extremely thin, as with the drawer sides for a desk interior, or a miniature case piece. In that instance, it is easier to reach thru the drawer's side (less than 1/4") than it is to reach into the tiny space beside the pin, where the tail will go. Thinking mainly half-blind dovetails in all cases, which is what I mostly am dealing with.
First shop I worked in, there was an old guy who had worked for the boss' dad, back in the day. Mr Grim came in and worked a half-day, left at lunch time, so as to not lose his Soc Security benefits. One day after he left, the boss came over to his bench and gang- sawed out all the tails of the drawer sides for the lowboy he (Mr Grim) was working on. The project was a "rush job" and the boss was trying to move things along, without actually stepping on the old man's toes. Next morning, I happened to be nearby when Mr Grim came into the shop. Picking up a drawer side, he sighed. "Wal, Butch I guess thought he was saving me some time, but now, these dovetails are gonna take twicet as long to finish." See, the boss was a tails first guy, but Mr Grim, who taught me how it was done, was pins first all the way.
Ray
Ray,
I have watched Roy do it his way for years, and I just don't think I could do it that way with sufficient accuracy.
I also thought about how thin stock would negate the increased access of doing the pins first.
Rob Millard
Hi Rob,
Do you think that accuracy is real high on ole Roy's list?
Haha,
Ray
Ray,
It must be, because shop organization and safety aren't on the list :-).
Rob Millard
Rob,
Haha, I really enjoy reading his books, he's a great storyteller, and very insightful, it seems to me. His writing is more thoughtful and less full-tilt than his tv persona. His forte seems to me to be along the lines of opening the door to period culture, getting into the heads of the old guys, and exploring various aspects of the trades. No doubt there isn't time for him to go into extreme detail/depth in any given topic.
Ray
Ray,
He is much more philosophical than technical (at least on the show) and I admire that, since I don't have philosophical bone in my body. I also like his always ready quotes. I guess the best thing about him is, even if the subject isn't particularly interesting he makes it interesting, and that is why he has been on the air for so long. Also, have you noticed he is the Dick Clark of woodworking? He never seems to change.
Rob Millard
lol
Well, with 1/2-blind, you almost HAVE to do tails first.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Here's a different view altogether ...
Sliding Dovetails by Hand
I have updated the article on my website ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsbyhand1.html
Derek
That was great. Thanks for taking the time to present it to us.
thanks again derek, i VERY much appreciate your tutorials.
eef
Derek,
Excellent as usual.
Thank You for Sliding Dovetails by HandI have been meaning to make one of these http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=582Looks like I don't really need one.I don't have the long backsaw but I am thinking I may get away with using a smaller cross cut panel saw.Thanks for opening my eyes.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hi roc
Your link is to a stair saw. You certainly can use it for sliding dovetails, but the reason I choose to use a large mitre saw is that it is easier to use a fence with it as a guide for the correct angles. I'd otherwise use a shorter tenon or panel saw in the same way.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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