Replies

1. 
   ian | May 21, 2004 04:20pm | #1

   Matt

   I think there are three broard churches represented here on Knots

   1)  the buy the cheap tool and tune it to near perfection brigade.  Of course this all takes time both to learn how to tune the tool properly and do the actual tuning, and can be a waste of time if the tool is a dud to start with.  Some chisels fall into this last category.  However, there are a lot of very good buys out there.   For saws, I think knowing how to sharpen and set a saw is a skill most WW should learn, as there is a dearth of good professional saw sharpeners out there.  I'm not so convinced of the merits of buy cheap and tune when it comes to hand planes.  I've read enough here and elsewhere to suggest to me that buying a couple of high quality new planes is money well invested.

   2)  the I want the tool to work right out of the box brigade.  Often accompanied by "the time I have for WW is too precious to squander tuning old tools".  There's a number of subsets here from those that can afford Holtey (I'd have to sell the car or take out a second morgage) and Bridge City planes, to those who argue about the relative value of LN, Lee Valley and Clifton planes.  As you found, money spent on a good saw opens up a world you didn't know existed.  The same is true of sharp cutting edges

   3)  the what jig do I need to do this brigade.   Invariably accompanied by "where's the power point".  closely followed by "do I really need dust collection?"

   So to answer your question, So, what's a poor novice tool buyer to do? is difficult.  Which church do you feel comfortable in?   which do you aspire to?   The best I can suggest is that when starting out the novice buy a limited number of very good quality hand tools.  If WW becomes part of your life you'll never regret it nor have to upgrade them.  If on the other hand it turns out that WW was just a passing flirtation, because you bought quality you'll readily be able to on-sell the tools without taking a total loss on the investment.

   slightly more than 2 cents worth

   Ian

1. 
   Kell | May 22, 2004 04:38am | #4

   ian,

   Your answer is so good, it should be compulsory reading for anyone about to buy tools for the first time!  Well said!

   Kell

1. 
   ian | May 22, 2004 10:23am | #5

   thank you

1. 
   macalex | May 22, 2004 10:56am | #6

   And, Ian my man, you can say exactly the same thing about machines.

   I have, quite a lot recently, having just bought a top of the line Makita slide compound saw. Cheez, it makes a difference. I knew that, I'd just forgotten.

   What's a poor woodworker to do? Focus on the essential few, and buy better than you can afford.

   I'm living this rule, by the way. In a couple of weeks I'm going to drive a 12 hour round trip to pick up an Italian-made Euro saw. Minimax. Always wanted one. Can't justify the price. Life's too short!

2. 
   jackplane | May 21, 2004 04:24pm | #2

   Matt,

    Your experience is probably shared by many. If you can, I'd recommend visiting a Woodcraft store or a similar one dedicated to woodworking. There you'll find what quality is, and what sharp really is. I avoid buying big box tools if at all possible,esp. Buck Bros., unless I'm doing rough framing.For that matter, I don't buy power tools at Sears; hand tools are another story. So, press on and don't be discouraged by poor quality tools.

3. 
   gpasewicz | May 21, 2004 05:23pm | #3

   I'm glad you posted this.  I, too, have a "Jack" dovetail saw, and have, despite several well-intentioned attempts, never cut a single manageable dovetail.   The cuts were never straight and it took quite a bit of effort to make them.  I gave up.   Which is frustrating because so many people rave about how easy it is to handcut dovetails once you get the hang of it.

   And I'm glad that maybe it's not me, maybe it is the saw. 

   That being said, a few weeks ago in another thread there was considerable praise heaped upon the Zona 35-500 which costs around $7.   I have yet to get one.

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | May 22, 2004 01:51pm | #7

   And I'm glad that maybe it's not me, maybe it is the saw

   Nope, maybe it's you.  Don't blame the tool, blame the guy who didn't sharpen it.  Part of the craft is maintaining and tuning your tools.  Spend 20 minutes, fix your saw properly. A chisel isn't usually ready to use out of the box.  Neither is a handsaw.  On an inexpensive saw they stamp out the teeth and sell it.  Chances are the steel is pretty decent.  Get out your flat file and triangle file.  Joint the teeth, top and sides.   You don't need much if any set.  File new teeth in a shark's tooth form rather than the nasty square stamped teeth.  It will work 1000 times better, even if you're not the most skilled saw sharpener yet.  A real expensive saw is nicer, sure.  Nice handle, taper ground, good steel.  But, the biggest difference is that its been sharpened properly.  A cheap saw is the ideal opportunity to practice sharpening.

1. 
   mgumaer | May 23, 2004 03:21am | #8

   Bob,

   Why is it that someone who buys a hand tool this days seemingly has no right to expect it to work as it comes from the box? Particularly for someone like me who had never seen a good dovetail saw in action or been able to examine one close up to see what makes it work so well, (even if I wanted to spend my time making my new tools usable) it's pretty optimistic to think I'd do a great job of tuning a saw right off the bat. Imagine how pissed you'd be if your new table saw top wasn't anywhere close to flat and you called the manufacturer and he told you in order to be a real woodworker you ought to know how to flatten it up.

   I've flattened the backs of my chisels and the bottom of my planes but that doesn't mean I'm happy about having to spend so much time on new tools and I'm not sure I'm a better woodworker for the effort.

   I saw a chair bodger on Roy Underhill's "The Woodwright's Shop" who made his own turning tools in a homemade forge out of car leaf springs. I was impressed as hell, but I would been pretty disappointed he the bodger had said that anyone who didn't make their own forge and put together their own tools was not a craftsman.

   What's next, chastise those who don't dry their own lumber?

   The first time my new saw needs sharpening, I may learn how to do it and do it myself or I may send it out. I hope I don't get kicked off this forum if I send it out and I'll bet it will be a lot easier to do now that I've had a chance to see how a properly sharpened saw looks and cuts.

   Matt

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | May 23, 2004 04:44am | #9

   Just a matter of economics.  I don't expect my Chevy to be as well made as a BMW.  If you bought an expensive saw, sure I'd expect it to arrive properly sharpened.  That takes time and expertise, which means money.  You bought an inexpensive saw.  Some inexpensive tools use lousy steel, not properly tempered.  I think yours uses something not too bad.    It isn't simply that it wasn't sharpened well at the factory, it was stamped.  An expedient to make it cost less, but not a good way to do it.  If you send it "out" to get sharpened, they'll stick it on a machine and you'll get much the same as what you started with except it will likely cost more than you paid for the saw.  It will very much depend on the skill and equipment of the people you send it to. 

   I'm not trying to be overly critical here.  It costs a certain minimum for a good tool.  Above that price, you'll get something more attractive and durable but not necessarily much better at doing its job.  Below that price, you get a tool that doesn't work well.  Sometimes junk or sometimes just not enough attention paid to the details and it is fixable.  You can buy a cheaper plane and tune it, or spend 5 times the money and get a Lie Nielsen.  If you want to do "fine" woodworking you can spend a ton of money, rely on the expensive tools to do the job for you.  Or, you can spend less and do more yourself.  I believe anybody serious about woodworking should be able to sharpen their tools.  You do it every day before you begin work.  Chisels, planes, saws, screwdrivers, etc.   It isn't a waste of time, its an essential element of the craft.  It isn't easy or quick and you have to learn it.  Starting with an inexpensive saw is a good way to begin.  The way mass-market tools are made is far from ideal.  Do it yourself and you can sometimes have a much better tool at a fraction of the cost.

   I've been doing this for going on 40 years.  Never could afford the "gourmet" tools and still can't.  I have a lot of machinery and a lot of hand tools.  Hand tools mostly came from flea markets and yard sales.  The best handsaw I own is an old Disston made late 1800s.  No teeth at all when I got it, but a beautiful handle that fit my hand perfectly.  My dovetail saw is some English thing that looked nice but cut like garbage when I bought it.  ABout 20 bucks new. If you have a ton of money, go buy your furniture ready made.  Easy.  If you want to play at woodworking, go buy a boatload of fancy tools that are ready to use.  Otherwise, learn to sharpen.  TAkes a half hour to sharpen a saw and you need 2 files.

   I don't like any "set" on my dovetail saw.  The cut isn't deep enough to need any.  Take your saw and use a flat file flat against the blade to file set off the teeth.  Run the file across the tops of the teeth to even them.  Use a triangle file to make "sharks teeth".  No fancy jigs.  A good eye and count your strokes.  SAme on every tooth.  It will cut on both push and pull strokes.  You can't make your saw any worse than it already is.  It will take less time than driving out to buy another one.  If you need a more detailed description, I can give one.  

4. 
   RANGERP75R | May 23, 2004 07:28pm | #10

   Matt

      Bought the LN Independence DT saw recently. Nice feel in the hand and the teeth are set to a rip profile. Tracks great. Excellent saw with excellent end results.

      Purchased a Zona from a post I saw in this forum just for fun. Good feel either on either the puch or pull stroke. Blades are replaceable when they get dull. Tracks fine.

      Had an old Greenlee tenon-saw from 30 years ago. Cross-cut set and takes a wider cut. Slow going, but you still arrive. Wasn't designed for DT's, but it worked well for almost 30 years.  

      The Buck mitre saw kind of just sits there. I bought it several months ago just to demonstrate locally you can cut DT's with it. And you can to the point that a vast difference is not detectable from it and an expensive saw once the cut has been made. A lot more care has to be taken, but it will get you there.

      They vary in price and quality from $125 to $4.95. Each has a different feel and require a strategy that will suit it best. Each has a limit to how long it will stay sharp. Each has a different degree of what you have to do to make it peak to it's individual maximum. Each will cut DT's and that's a fact.

      If you feel more confident with a $125 DT saw or you have the drive to make a $5 saw work you, you can still cut DT's.

   Enjoy your new saw, it's a nice un'...

   sarge..jt 

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   mgumaer | May 23, 2004 09:44pm | #11

   Sarge,

   If you're interested, I'll send you my "Jack" saw and you can tell me whether you think it is reasonable for anyone to try to use it to cut dovetails (as it comes from the shelf). I guarantee you that there is much more more of a difference than the "confidence" inspired by my lighter wallet and the curly maple handle of the Lie-Nielsen between my "Jack" saw and the L-N.

   A poster above suggested that you could turn the "Jack" into a useable tool if only you filed off all of the teeth and recut and sharpened the teeth. That certainly may be true.

   My bottom lines are these:

   1) I am relatively new to woodworking; therefore when something is going wrong, I do not instantly know whether it is me or the tool;

   2) If it is the tool, particularly with a saw, I don't necessarily have the knowledge or tools to fix it;

   3) I think people are doing a disservice to novice woodworkers here if that either suggest that you need a $120 dovetail saw to cut dovetails because you may price most folks right out of the hobby but, I also think you are doing them a disservice if you tell them you can cut dovetails well with any saw at all (because people will assume when their "Jack" saw doesn't cut jack it must be they way they are using it or it is supposed to take 20 minutes to make a single dovetail cut).

   I'm sure there are excellent woodworkers out there (yourself included probably) that could "tune" (or rebuild from my perspective) my "Jack" saw into a usable tool but, I remain firmly convinced that anyone forced to use the saw in its current condition would either buy a router jig or give up cutting dovetails all together.

   Matt

1. 
   RANGERP75R | May 24, 2004 12:07am | #12

   Matt

      The "jack" is not a DT saw. It can cut DT's with a bit of fettling, but it is not designed to rip as a true DT saw does. It is not a balanced saw. It has low grade metal and will not stay sharp long. The price suggest what you get, a cheap saw that can be used in various utility situations.

      What I was implying that once the DT's are cut (in the hands of someone that has cut a number of them) the results are very minimal. With the jack saw the journey is longer and requires total concentration or we start over. It is not now, nor has ever been the best way to approach DT's. A proper DT saw is the best approach, but no gaurantee that a decent DT will result if you have not acquired and honed the technique.

      No one picks up a LN, Adria (great saw also) or a cheaper English gents saw and cuts a perfect DT the first try. You adapt to the saw. You just have to do a lot of adapting when using a cheaply made, ill designed for the job saw. You put in your time and labor regardless of what saw you use. With the proper saw you just get to the finsih line with less effort and less frustration as it tracks and responds to the line of cut easier.

      So what you say is correct. The LN is much easier to use, especially for those that have just started the journey. I would never pick up a jack saw when an Independence or Adria was sitting next to it. But not everyone can afford or warrant the price. For those that can't, the Zona is an excellent choice at $12 shipped. 

      Not one WW is excluded from cutting DT's by hand. It can be done with about any saw if you are driven with the desire to do it, patience and practice. Mistakes, frustration and a waste of some lumber are part of the turf. Accept that or cut them with a router or jig.

   Enjoy your new saw, it's a good un'...

   sarge..jt  Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)