Hello folks!
All my short woodworking life, I have been using Japanese style pullsaws. They work great but….. It seems that high quality western style push saws may be a little more classic and I am seriously considering switching. So, I use my saws mostly for dovetail sawing so a dovetail saw is perfect for my application. I just read the FWW review on western style saws and it seems that the Adria Toolworks dovetail saw
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merch…;Category_Code=
won best overall.
However, as a fan of Lie-Nielson tools, I saw that they have a great looking saw too!
http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3721&mode=items#tabs
So, which one should I get? They are about the same price and have approx the same size blade and depth of cut. Both have rip configurations and (The Lie-Nielson looks better) seem to be of good quality. Your comment or suggestion is appreciated. Thanks!
Replies
Don't know why everyone is buying these expensive saws for dovetailing when a Zona razor saw at $6.50 will do. Ask the students at College of the Redwoods which saws they use and they will likely tell you that they use Zona razor saws for cutting dovetails.
Bill
The Zonas are beautiful little saws for the money, but they cut on the pull stroke, so they'd hardly do for someone wanting to try traditional Western style. I've never thought of using mine for dovetails -- they're in a separate workshop -- but I can see they'd be a great saw for learning, especially for someone used to pullsaws looking for a more manageable size.
Jim
The blades on the Zona saw can be reversed so they can cut on the push stroke.Here are some projects where Zona saws were used to cut the dovetails.http://www.insidepassage.ca/april5.htmNot saying that the LN are bad (I own one), but after using the Zona, I never went back. I just found that I had more control with the Zona. I also own a set of LN planes which I found to be excellent.Bill
Nice work!
I'm quite happy with a pull stroke, since I use Japanese saws for everything except dovetails -- the OP wanted to try push stroke. I've used a dozuki for years for dovetails with acceptable results, but the shape of the thing just isn't comfortable in my hand. I recently bought a Wentzloff but haven't had a chance to give it a real workout. When I do I'll try the Zona alongside. It's really more or less a gent's saw shapewise, and I find it comfortable for fine cuts in small stock. It lives on my carving bench. Do you use the 24 tooth fine kerf? That and the small 4 incher are all I can find locally.
Jim
I own 2-32 tpi Zona saws along with my LN Independence Saw.
Bill
The Zona saw I have from numerous years ago cuts on the push stroke. It is like a small back saw.
Alan - planesaw
Yep, I overgeneralized. (is that a word?) They still make one push-stroke model, a thick kerf 18tpi back saw. All the rest are pull stroke. I can't find a store that sells it. Someone else pointed out that in any case you can reverse the blades. I imagine the thick kerf might be better for dovetails in allowing you to use a coping saw more easily to finish the cut.
Jim
Bill,
I use Zona saws for making small and very thin-kerf cuts. They are good where the work is small and/or the cut must be very accurate |(e.g. if there is no room for subsequent paring with a chisel).
However, I use a Western style saw for DT and finger joints as I prefer to remove the waste by sawing across the bottom with a coping saw. The kerf from a Western style saw allows the coping saw blade to get down the cut and to turn the angle at the bottom so the waste can be sawed out. This is not possible with a Zona saw cut as the kerf is too narrow. I prefer coping out the waste as I use hardwoods that do not like to be chopped.
However, if one prefers to chop out the waste with a chisel, the Zona is certainly an option for DTs and fingers. It leaves a very clean wall so if one saws accurately there is never a need for subsequent paring of the walls with a chisel. But accurate cutting with a Western style saw can also be achieved with practice. Even though the wall of the DT or finger joint will look rougher (15 tpi as opposed to the 32 tpi of the Zona) an accurate cut with a Western style saw requires no chisel paring of the walls for the joint to fit first time. The saw must be well and evently set, as well as sharp.
Mind you, I had to cut hundreds of DTs before my accuracy with the excellent Wenzloff saw became good enough every time to avoid chisel-paring of a wall or ten - in those hardwwoods at least (softwoods are more forgiving). :-)
The Zona will also cut accurately, especially if the marking out is with a knife that leaves thin but deepish incisions. The Zona will follow those incisions if it is used carefully and with a light touch.
Lataxe
Peter -
I can't comment on the Adria, but I own the LN dovetail saw and it really is wonderful. I would think both of the saws are great, just a matter or preference (handle, balance, etc.). The kerf is quite small and very smooth. If you had the opportunity to try them out before purchasing, that would help.
In fact, the use of the LN dovetail saw has started a sort of drive, for me, to use more hand tools. Since that time I have obtained several more LN saws and all have been of excellent quality and a joy to use.
Good luck.
Josh
I love my Independence dovetail saw (LN bought the rights to make this saw). It cuts very nicely and leaves a very thin kerf. The handle is very nice to hold/use. I also recently bought a Wenzloff carcass saw (crosscut teeth and a bit larger blade)- they make a dovetail saw too- it is very nice. Between the Adria, LN and Wenzloff, I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. I have no experience but I think the Gramercy is supposed to be very nice as well.
JeffS
They are all very nice saws. I've also tried the Gramercy and can say that it is a wonderful saw, and it is the only one that is substantially different in design. You can't go wrong with any of these choices.
-Andy
I got a Gramercy last week. I've heard people say you have to practice with it to achieve best results, and also that western saws only get broken in after a hundred or so cuts. I can say it cuts perfectly without practice or break-in and it's a joy to use. So, it's definitely worth adding to your choices.
jack
Peter,
You might want to widen your search space for a dovetail saw.
How can anyone argue with Tage Frid? He used a bowsaw. You can't really consider yourself a real woodworker until you can cut dovetails with a bowsaw. Of course, you really should make the saw yourself.
Ray Pine (joinerswork) uses a gents saw. These saws have a round handle which doesn't give you the sense of direction that other types of saws give (pistol grip, oval, etc). Real men don't worry about such details, and can cut dovetails easily with a gents saw.
My recommendation is that you NOT settle on just an LN or an Adria. The LN, he Adria, and the Wentzloff are excellent saws. There is no reason not to have one of each. However, my guess is that you'll find the dozuki much easier to use.. Are you looking for "easy"? Are you looking for the acceptance of the current crop of "fine woodworkers"? It is all up to what you want.
What would I want? I would like to have Frank Klauz walk up to me and say, "Mel, you are the fastest dovetail cutter that I have ever seen."
Not much chance of that.
Seriously -- forget about which saw you are using. Focus on the result. ALWAYS focus on the result. If you can cut good dovetails with a chainsaw, and you enjoy doing it, then do it. I recommend that you don't look to the rest of the woodworking community to determine what you should do. They do not speak with one mind. They are wonderfully obtuse in their choices, and they don't agree on anything. I wouldn't want it any other way.
Me, I have a LN and a dozuki, and I just got a bowsaw last week, but haven't tried it for dovetails yet.
Whatever you do, HAVE FUN.
Mel
PS the purpose of my message was not to advise you what to do, but to help you feel guilty no matter what you do. The only way you can escape that trap is to look to yourself for answers, not to others. Ask others not "what should I do", but rather ask them what their rational is for what they do. Why do they prefer one thing over another? What parameters to they measure their choice on? What do they value and why? That provides interesting information. However, I have always found that the only way to really understand what others say is to try it yourself. So, try a bowsaw, a dozuki, a gents saw, and the Western pull saws. Make up your own mind.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel,
I have a Master Mechanic 20 tpi tenon saw - cost me $10!
Took it home and flattened the teeth as I don't know how to use my sawset and vise yet. Took out a triangle file and removed every other tooth for 10 tpi. Then used some needle nosed pliers to bend the teeth by eye.
Now I can cut dovetails with real curved tails 'cept I have to keep flipping the board! Looks like the real thing too. Been workin on the matching pins for 'about a week or three now.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
My gosh Mel,
I paused halfway through your message and went onto the LN site and ordered a saw to go with my Adria. Then I went to TFWW and ordered two Grammercy saws--gents style and open handled. I'm still waiting for my Wentzlof saw (going on 12 months now).
OK, tongue is out of my cheek. Shall we concentrate on taking this thread to 3000?
Time for Penquin hockey!
Tony Z.
Just wanted to comment on how much I enjoyed and agree with your post. In my quest to learn to cut dovetails, I started out with a Japanese pull saw, results were good. I damaged the blade and didn't replace it, so I quit using it.
I then went to a western dovetail saw and tried that, the results were good. After that I went to the Zona saw and that is the one that I prefer at this point in time. But I do intend to go back and try the Japanese saw again as well using a western style saw.
So my journey has been one of experimentation. I didn't know which one I would like, so I tried different ones. And all of them have their qualities.
I feel fairly comfortable with all 3 styles, but my personal preference is the Zona. What I hope to achieve is that I will be able to fine dovetails with whatever saw and not get hung up on brand or type.
Like you, I am concerned with the results not necessarily the tool it took to get there. Actually, I get a bigger kick when someone, especially someone who does woodworking, sees my dovetails and asks what saw I used and I pull out this little rather cheap looking saw.
I have truely come to believe in my limited ability and knowledge of woodworking, that it is the person and not the tool. I am not advocating buying cheap tools, quite the opposite, quality tools are a joy to work with and there is no substitute in my opinion.
But, quality tools or brand or type do not make the craftsman or artisan, we make the tools sing, as it were.
This of course is just my opinion. Take that and about $3.00 and you can get a cup of coffee.
Thanks for your post
Joker,
You are a woodworker of great wisdom.
You make yourself responsible for your own learning.
You try different techniques to see the differences.
You use the tools that suit you.
You are after results (and having fun.).
To me that is the essence of woodworking.
Glad you enjoyed my post.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619,
In my past life as a much younger person I was heavily involved in martial arts. A very, very wise man once said "before I knew the art, a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch, once I learned the art a kick was no longer just a kick and a punch was no longer just a punch.....now that I know the art, a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch"
Some will no doubt disagree, but that always pops into my head whenever I do anything with woodworking as well as other things in life. We sometimes make things more difficult than what they are or should be. Sometimes things are just like they appear to be.
And I remember the master saying this on TV in "Kung Fu":"Grasshopper, you will be ready to leave this place when you can snatch the coin from my hand."I guess you learned to snatch the coin. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
No, I kicked and punched him and then took the coin!!!
You're all right.
Keep on kicking, and making sawdust.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
J,
Your post struck a chord...
Those Zonas are certainly good tools that do the job - a very unusual combination of "perfectly functional" and "inexpensive. But it's an unfortunate aspect of modern manufacturing and marketing that these two attributes are not often found in the same tool.
Whilst it's true that tools don't make the craftsman I would posit that bad tools can detract from a craftsman being as good as he or she otherwise might. High quality tools (which are usually quite expensive) don't directly cause one to learn and apply skills. But a badly-made tool may not only reduce the quality from your efforts but also put you off psychologically - you give up or are forced into a compromise by the inability of the tool to do what you want. Conversely, if you own a very good tool you "rise to the occasion" and perhaps achieve more because the tool somehow expects you to - the same psychology in reverse.
Some tools are "neutral" and can be fettled despite coming from their manufacturer in a poor condition. Other tools can't be fettled without fundamentally rebuilding them and/or replacing parts with 3rd party substitutes, an exercise that can cost more than buying a good quality tool in the first place. Cheap, modern metal planes from the likes of Record, Stanley and Anant are the oft-quoted examples; but the syndrome occurs with machine tools too. A cheap biscuit joiner, for example, usually makes sloppy and misaligned slots, which completely undermines any work done with it - and such a poorly made machine is more or less beyond fettling.
So, my policy is to buy the best tool I can afford. "Best" means that the tool is functionally near-perfect and soon becomes one with its user; it sort of disappears as you apply it, so your intent manifests in the result you wanted. Although all tools are limited in their abilities, of course - unless they are a Very Big Screwdriver. :-)
Lataxe, a tool-seller's dream.
Hi Lataxe,
I also enjoy and have enjoyed your posts on different matters. I don't post very much, just when things interest me. And I definetely don't post to argue or offend. And I do agree with you, thats why I made it a point to make sure I stated my belief that quality tools without a doubt can and will make a difference in one's work and that they can help the learning curve greatly.
I would love to have a LN dovetail saw and I do plan to purchase one in the future. I think they are a beautiful quality tool. I do not, however, believe that my dovetails will be any better or that I will cut them any easier. But I would love to be proven wrong.
I just don't approach my woodworking with any preconcieved opinions about anything, mostly because I don't know anything and I can prove it. I didn't buy an expensive dovetail saw thinking it was necessary in order to learn to cut dovetails. I also don't buy necessarily cheap tools because someone says I don't need to spend all of that money on this or that. I buy what I think will give me the best result. And as I stated that is a matter of experimentation for me.
The only thing I care about, and this is with all honesty, is the end result. When I look at something I built and I am proud of it. I could care less what it took to get me there. I don't care If I cut the dovetails with a LN or a butter knife as long as it looks good and is good. it's all about the finished product for me, not the tools.
Thanks
Greetings J,
At the risk of getting a kick in the ear, I will argue with you about arguing. :-) I prefer to call it "discussion", which requires different premises and even the odd different conclusion, if it's to tease out any "truths". If you mean by "argument" the rancorous blaring of hard-and-fast opinions, I'm with you all the way, especially as you kick and punch.
As to the tool quality thang: I don't believe it when you say that, "I just don't approach my woodworking with any preconcieved opinions about anything". It isn't possible to comprehend anything unless you already have a framework for comprehending. That framework will contain implicit assumptions, whether you're aware of them or not.
It is a good feeling to find an inexpensive tool that also works properly, such as them Zonas. I'm trying to think of another such tool now and offhand, I can't. I learnt the hard way that it's a general rule that you gets what you pays for. Of course, there is an odd exception such as the Zona. But the fact that they are odd exceptions proves the rule.
When Mel makes his, "Try everything and decide what you like" speech, I do laugh a bit. Only in The Great Consumer Society does such an approach fail to generate an alarum in that usually universal human aspect, "a natural sense of economy". I learnt about good tools partly via making foolish purchases that were perhaps driven by an over-developed sense of natural economy (known as "being a cheapskate"). SInce becoming a Knotter, I've learned loads about quality and now my sense of economy says, "Buy the best to invest".
Latax the argumentative.
Hi Lataxe,
I would prefer discussion as well. I agree with you when you say that you are going to have at least some preconcieved notion about something you are about to undertake. It isn't as if I wipe my mind clean without any thought as to the potential outcome, because I do. If I buy a tool to do a certain thing, I'm thinking about that outcome, hopefully it turns out good.
If I buy a saw for cutting dovetails, I expect to be able to cut dovetails, but I won't limit myself into thinking I have to buy and expensive saw when I sart out. At the same time I won't limit myself into thinking that won't have to buy and expensive saw. I want the experience and results I get with different tools and techniques to determine which is the best for me. Thats why I have tried different ones.
I want to buy a LN saw, I think it is a high quality great looking tool. But honestly I am going to buy one because it is a great looking tool. And I know I will be able to cut some really nice dovetails with it, but not because of the saw. I will be able to cut them because I can cut them with other saws.
I also think it is perfectly fine to recommend high quality tools to anyone when they are asking for recommendations. Right now I am going through the decision making process of purchasing some new chisels. What would you recommend? That is a serious question.
I currently have the super high quality, extremely rare plastic blue handled limited editiion chisels that I bought from Home Depot some years ago. They do the job just fine for me, but I wouldn't recommend them. I want some better chisels. The odd thing is, I don't really want new chisels because of my desire for better quality, I want some that look better, the plastic handles are not too cool looking.
I, like you, and probably everyone else has purchased cheap tools that I regret. The sad thing is that I no doubt will do it again. So, again, I am not nor will I ever recommend buying cheap tools. I heard something years ago "buy the best, you will never regret it", I believe that.
I have alot of crappy tools that I work with all of the time. I have a craftsman table saw for goodness sake!! I wouldn't recommend buying one to anybody, I would't tell anyone "you don't have to buy that PM cabinet saw, save your money, buy a craftsman contractors saw". But I have made some really nice stuff with that saw, because I make the stuff not the tool. And in the end, thats my belief, we as craftsman, hobbyists, artisans, professionals, humans, make the stuff, not the tool.
Tools are such a personal thing with guys, and I love it. We charish them like precious gems. So I don't think we are in disagreement, we may look at things a little differently, perhaps, but one thing we have in common like all others on this forum, we love tools and wood and we love to make things with them.
Buy the way, I doubt if I could punch my way out of a wet paper bag anymore.
Take care
J,
It is the making of things that matters, as you say. My experience with the dreaded blue planes and cheap chisels, right at the start of my woodworking, put me off the inexpensive stuff. I spent so many wasted hours fettling and re-fettling them bluddy Record planes and still they wouldn't deal with the sapele. They gave me tennis elbow and an 8 year distaste for handtools.
Knots poster of various ilks taught me about the joys of handtools that work properly. Generally speaking they cost more although not always, as you point out.
Chisels are a good example, although I haven't found any that are dirt-cheap but also super-functional, as with Zona saws. However, there are some Chinese chisels appearing now in British tool catalogues - traditional ones, not the nasty clones of Western chisels. I do have a couple of Chinese Mujingfang wooden planes that work extremely well so I have high hopes for the chisels.
I find I use a 1-inch Two Cherries chisel a lot and could often do with a wider one so it may be one of them Chinese ones. There are some that are made of hard and soft metal, like Japanese chsisles, but use HSS for the hard bit so it's not so brittle. They come in 1, 2 and 3 inch wide versions at only £8 ($16) each.
* At present I use some old blue-handled Marples, perhaps the same as those you describe, for hack-work. They can be got sharp but easily lose their edge, especially in the very hard woods I like such as teak. The edge seems to bend over rather than just go blunt. I presume the steel is a bit soft, although not brittle. They seem to have been aimed at workers in softwoods - carpenters rather than cabinetmakers.
* I also have half a dozen Two Cherries, which take and keep a very good edge so are used for precision paring or chopping. They have some drawbacks though - the blades are thick with a trapezoid cross section so they are hard to get into acute angles such as those of dovetails. They come coated in laquer, which has to be got off (with nail polish remover); but they are also machine-polished in the factory, to look nice. The polishing dubs the cutting edge, including the back, so it's hard to get the flat back at the cutting end. I resort to the ruler trick, despite this being classed a no-no by it's chief purveyor, David Charlesworth, who recommends it only for plane blade backs. Frankly, the part-of-a-degree back bevel doesn't seem to spoil their working or the ability to jig them using the flat back.
* The best chisels I have are Blue Spruce, which are light - even delicate - but super fine, with sharp hollow-ground (and polished) arises, A2 blades and beautiful, ergonomic handles. They aren't for wopping with a mallet but they can make the finest most accurate paring you can imagine.
As to types - I have 1/8 inch to 3/4 inch with 90 degree blades but use 3/8" and 1/2" skew chisels the more thsn the others. The skew seems to allow cleaner cutting in most situations where paring of a surface is needed, especially across end grain. I use a straight 1 inch chisel for loads of little tasks. It's wide edge and bevel can be used rather like a very freehand small plane.
So, those are my experiences. But I never tried Lie Nielsen or Ashley Isles, for example; both of which have a high reputation with Knotters. There is also Sorby, which are often said to be a bit soft and not so well made now as they used to be. Then there are a zillion Japanese chisels, which are said to take a fantastic edge but are also easily chipped unless you drop the Western chisel-user's habits of levering chips off/out with the edge.
If I could just have one type it would be Blue Spruce - but then I rarely hit a chisel with a mallet so it all depends on the style of work you do.
Lataxe, ramble-poster.
Lataxe,
Again, I don't think in essence that we disagree. I held/used a veritas small block plane, man was it sweet. Compared to my Stanley that someone bought me, there is no comparison, but I still do good work with my Stanley, so I will likely procrastinate about ever getting one.
As far as bench planes and the like go, I learned to make my own wooden planes and I am very pleased with the performance of them.
I looked up Blue Spruce chisels and indeed they look like a quality tool. I had also considered Two Cherries as a possibility but heard the same drawbacks as you mentioned. LN's also look very tempting. I will admit that after looking and looking and looking, I am leaning toward the Japanese chisels. I would still have to decide which style, dovetail or not or both and which brand or I guess, from which master chisel maker.
Of course, by the time I actually get around to doing it, I will probably change my mind again. I will let you know when I do and what I chose. It has been a pleasure having this exchange with you. Thanks for the advise on the chisels.
Take care.
Well folks, this discussion is certainly getting heated… and rather interesting. I really enjoyed reading Mel’s post on why I shouldn’t settle with just a LN or an Adria. I completely agree with that. After all, some of the greatest masters of fine woodworking (Tage Frid, Ray Pine, even Frank Klauz) use simply a bowsaw or a gent’s saw. Hey, how am I going to argue with them? They pioneered and changed modern woodworking. When it comes down to it, I have to completely agree with Mel again. It’s in the enjoyment of carrying out the craft and the final product, not something a fancy saw can change. After reading all your posts, I think I will settle for the Lie-Nielsen simply because it has a longer blade and looks better. (I know Mel, I feel really guilty) Also, this is probably a perfect example of “buy the best you can afford”. The Lie-Nielson is probably the limits of my budget and when it finally arrives at my house, I will probably really enjoy it. After all, this is the best I can afford: something I strongly suggest because hey, after all, when you take it home and unfortunately find out that it is a piece of crap, you can’t really regret it because it was the best you could afford. In terms of Western style push saw vs. Japannese style push saw, I think this will not cease to be an universal discussion. I am considereing switching to the Western style simply because I would like to expand my woodworking knowledge and see whats really out there. Not because the kerf is to thin. As for the Zona saws, I actually own a very similar type of razor, ridiculously high tpi saw that I use when I do modelmaking. And really, the bottom line is that you have to look at the big picture and see where you are in woodworking, where you plan to do, and just move on."Real Peace isn't just the absence of conflict but is the presence of justice"
Peter,
I just read your conclusions. It doesn't matter much, but I agree with you. That and $4 will get you a coffee at Starbucks. I also have the Lie Nielsen. One of the great reasons for buying a LN, beyond the fact that is is widely accepted to be a VERY good saw, is that you can almost always get most of your money back if you don't want it any more. Just sell it on EBay, where LN tools go for close to full cost even after years of use. There have been many threads here on why this is the case. No one really doubts is, but they argue about why this happens. Let's not rehash that here. For Life Cycle Cost, NOTHING BEATS LIE NIELSEN!!!!! Because it is a liquid investment in which the original outlay can usually be almost fully recouped. YOU CAN"T BEAT THAT WITH A STICK!!!!! Peter, it is great to find someone who shares my sentiments on
1) focussing on the output, not the tool,
2) widening one's skill base,
3) the skill over the tool
4) the importance of ENJOYING woodwork (everything else is secondary for us hobbyists at least.Go get em, Peter,
Make a lot of dovetails.
Make some masterpieces.
Make some mistakes.
Make someone happy with some nice furniture.
Have a nice year.
Mel
PS thanks for the nice words.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
"the importance of ENJOYING woodwork (everything else is secondary for us hobbyists at least".
Fo one so keen to tell us all to try everything, you are often rather definite about why we should do so! :-) Nevertheless, it's an interesting question and might cause this post to become another of your marathons. The question?
What constitutes enjoyable woodworking for you?
For me it seems to change as the process goes along:
At the start it's the anticipation, drawing on the graph paper, talking with the eventual recipient and the thrilling fear of contemplating something new or difficult (for me).
Once commenced in the shed, it's all about reading grain, overcoming construction challenges, sulking at then forgiving various bits of wood and even the odd naughty tool. There is the gradual feeling of elation as the hill (or cliff) is climbed and the sunny top glimpsed. The elation requires periods of gloom, feelings of inadequacy and various "bad" emotions during the climb. Otherwise, it's all too bland.
At the end it's the pleasure of bringing out all that careful selection of grain and arty-fiddly bits with a good finish. The final moments, when you stick the piece in the sunny patch and gawp lovingly at it whilst convincing yourself that the various patches, altered bits and funny corners are all design details not glitches or gremlin-spells after all. Of course, the nagging doubts remain and this is something of a spur to the next attempt. The Joy of Hex.
Then there is the pleasure of handing it over to the recipient, who generally oohs and ahhs, as you have massaged their expectations down a bit just so you could enjoy this moment when the better-than-expected piece is revealed to them. I also "enjoy" it when they look a tad glum as they have changed their mind since specifying the thing. It is no good if everything is sweetness and light 24 hours a day. (Don't ask me why, I like contrasts perhaps).
Some folk continue their enjoyment by imagining their pieces gracing the hoosey of some discerning customer or other for the next 500 years. However, the pleasure ends with the handover, as far as I 'm concerned. I couldn't give a toss if everything i ever made was burnt tomorrow - as long as I can make more. (Well, I might give half a toss about the stuff I made for myself and the ladywife).
Of course, one still does the Shaker thing and builds as though the piece will be used for the next 1000 years. :-)
Finally, let us not forget the pleasures of getting a fine new, functional tool and then reading esoteric lore about how to maintain and use it. Some curmudgeons sneer at this innocent pleasure. One day I will take them out in a boat with a heavy Marcou tied to their ankle.... (No I won't, it would be a waste of a beautiful and superbly functional plane).
And then there's the enjoyment of boasting about ones fine tools on Knots...... :-)
Not to mention curmudgeon-baiting....
Lataxe, a Big Kid.
For Peter
The LN dovetail saw is a beautiful saw. It is an heirloom piece, and you will love it all the more now for the fact that you will be using it more many years come.
I have it and the IT :) ... that is, I have the LN and the saw from whence it sprung, the Independence Tools dovetail saw.
To Mel
I say that the pleasure of working with tools is as much a part of the pleasure of working with wood. And the pleasure of working with great tools is as much as the pleasure of meeting the challenges of great wood.
I suspect that this factor is lost on some professionals and may only be appreciated by hobbiests. Pressures of time and deadlines can suck the fun out of this endeavour.
And for Lataxe
David, you may well enjoy this commentry I wrote and posted to my website:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/AGentlemanWoodworkersPlane.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
You are a wise person, but you are HIGHLY biased. (Aren't we all!) :-)
You are highly biased toward "fine tools which are finely prepared". I am highly biased toward "fine skills which are well honed". I am VERY impressed by the craftsman who can turn out wonderful furniture with the tools that exist in the place he is working. I am less impressed with the woodworker who whines that he hasn't got a 30,000 grit stone to hone his chisels. I have no truck with whiners. I belong the the local woodworkers guild and the carvers guild. Later this year, I will join the local turners group. I enjoy finding people who are fun to spend time with and to trade woodworking experiences. I find that as I get older, I am much more choosy about the people that I hang with. I enjoy people who "share" - that is: enjoy both listening and talking. I do not enjoy egocentric boastful individuals. I enjoy people who have a fascination with learning. I do not enjoy the "experts" who have stopped their interest in learning and focus on "preaching" about the right ways of doing things. I enjoy people who are always testing the boundaries of what can be done. (You are definitely one of those people.) I have no interest with those who are always looking for someone else to tell them what and how they should be doing things. I enjoy people who go out of their way to add flavor to woodwork. Lataxe is such a person. He is fascinated with the possibilities of life, and he exudes it. In woodwork, as in life, I enjoy the superbly competent individual who NEVER brags, is always anxious, is self-effacing, and really DOES a lot of great work (not just talk about it). There are a whole bunch of such folks on Knots. Ray Pine and Rob Millard come to mind first. In the way of tool makers, Philip Marcou and Mike Wentzloff come to mind first. My apologies to all those who I missed in that short list of lists. This is a discussion of "People and Tools". Ray has, in my opinion, a wonderful attitude toward tools. He doesn't collect them. He doesn't obsess over them. He gets the ones he uses. He has no need to brag about his tools. He uses an old humble gents saw for dovetails. I use a LN, and my results are not as good as his. He wins. I submit that such a question of "The Best Tools" misses the whole point of woodworking. My focus is on the woodworking, not the tool. If the gents saw does the job for you, it is just fine, so now let's get over that and focus on what Ray focuses on - getting excellent furniture made. When I read the posts of Rob and Ray and others, I see much discussion of the history of furniture and of research in determining what is appropriate in a particular case. THAT IS WHERE THE ACTION IS - not in using a Festool or a particular collectible Disston saw. My enjoyment in woodworking comes from intellectual as well as psychomotor challenges. Tools are simply extensions of the human body and mind. They are inventions to let us accomplish what our fingers and arms and minds cannot do alone. I enjoy people who enjoy finding better ways of making tools and finding ways of designing tools which function better than previous tools. Philip comes to mind. The Leonard Lee frame of mind embodies that. That is an intellectually stimulating and rewarding process. However, I don't have much interest in collecting all of the improvements as they come along. If a gents saw works for you, stick with it. Tools are our minions, not our masters. To me, focussing on a dovetail saw while making a Highboy is like a high schooler preparing for a prom by spending four hours polishing the right front hubcap on his automobile. It is important in woodwork, as in all of life, to focus on BALANCE, and on the appropriate relative importance of things. I believe it was Henri Poincare who said that the difference between an intelligent person and an ordinary one is that when looking at a problem, the most important aspects of a problem jump out at the intelligent person, while the ordinary person has a harder time figuring out what is most and least important. To me, the focus in woodworking should be on the enjoyment of turning out very good woodwork. To do that, one must have an idea of what "good" should mean. We don't discuss that enough. We spend an inordinate amout of time trying to figure out whether we need an Adria or a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. Yet when one looks at the resulting piece of furniture, say a nice Boston Blockfront chest, the difference in quality of the chest made by whether one used a LN or an Adria is INSIGNIFICANT. So, you can easily see from my long, uninspiring and insignificant treatise on the relative unimportance of tools, that I am at least as biased as you are, but in a different direction. That is what makes Knotsworld interesting. I am not trying to convince you to believe as I do. I once tried to convince Charles Stanford of something. Since then, I have never tried to convince anyone of anything. I do like to trade ideas. That is a much different and more enjoyable endeavor, and much easier to accomplish. My religion is that SKILLS and the intellectual knowledge of the woodworker are PHENOMENALLY more important to the enjoyment of woodwork and to the production of good furniture than are mere tools. Please note that I have not criticized your ideas anywhere here. I have merely provided alternatives. I hope that this has entertained you. Different religions should be allowed to coexist in woodworking just as they should in the real world. Please do not respond by saying that based on my post, you have completely changed your position and now fully agree with me. Only Lataxe does that sort of thing. Now I have to go down to my shed and get my Lie Nielsen ready to make some dovetails. Actually, I just got a little chainsaw. I want to see how tight I can make dovetails with a small chainsaw.Enjoy,
Mel
PS - Lataxe prophesied in his last message that I might respond to him with an overly long response. So I responded to him with two sentences, and I responded to you with an overly long response, even though you didn't really write to me. Just playing with Lataxe's mind, which Disney should think of making into a Theme Park.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,My response to your insightful post is copied from the Wisest One of All."Thou hast said it."MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Peter
Why are you leaving the Japanese saws behind? Are you unhappy with the thin kerf?
dan
Are you unhappy with the thin kerf?
Yeah, that's the complaint I have about my Takumi dozuki saw. It leaves such a microscopically thin, perfectly straight kerf that I can't tell which lines are just pencil lines and which ones are already cut. ;-)
View Image
-Steve
The one on the right!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The one on the right is the one you struck with a knife right? Ha.
That's just about right Steve. The kerf from the pull saw is so thin and straight I just can not duplicate the accuracy with my western saw. Very nice cut. I have this old black and white photo book of japanese joinery. It has some photos of joints used in old temples and other buildings. The joints in the photos are works of art. As I recall, one of the joints was what I refer to as a birds beak joint. The guy trimmed the end grain so cleanly it looks like it was done with a machine of some sort. Nice.
I understand some guys might like the handle set up on a western saw and it just feels natural to them. Lots of guys I have worked with just like the feel of the traditional handle and cutting on the push. Can't argue with that. With the wider kerf a man just compensates for it and its all about the same.
Trying different tools can be a bit unsettling when you get good results with your current tool. I got into japanese chisels after I worked with western stuff for about 10 years. I was doing quite a bit of timberframing and the japanese chisels clearly held an edge longer than my older british chisels. I didn't like the length of the japanese chisel and I had a time getting accustomed to the metal hoop on the handle. Eventually, I found myself back with the longer western chisels.
Planes: Nope I am not going to pull my handplanes to get a good surface. It is not as easy to work.
Love those japanese dovetail saws but the other tools just don't fit my methods.
Hey if it ain't fun.. why do it?
later
Edited 4/17/2008 12:39 pm ET by danmart
Steve, cut with a chain saw. You'll be able to tell the difference.
For the original poster - I've got 'em both and after five years or so, there ain't a nickle's worth of difference between 'em, other than tool cosmetics, which I ain't interested in. It all comes down to sharpening. By the way, both of these can be sharpened better than they are when brand new. The ability to do my own sharpening is why I prefer Western-style dovetail saws to either: a) Japanese pull-stroke saws; or b) tiny little saws with an ungodly high tpi. Good luck, Ed
I think you want to choose based on the comfort of the handle and the filing of the teeth out of the box. Blade shape, length and handle hang angle are all importnat, but I'm not sure how to advise you in this regard.
I was just on Joel's website and I was disappointed that I couldn't find particulars of the tooth geometries for his Grammercy saw. All saw manufacturers and retailers need to provide you with: tooth pitch (in tpi or ppi), rake angle, and fleam angle, and some sense of how the saw is set.
Tooth pitch determines the thickness you can saw. With a DT, it determines how thin a board you can saw. With longer saws, it determines how thick a board you can saw efficiently. Rake is what people sense when they talk about how "smooth" a saw cuts or how easy it starts. Beginners like a lot of rake, but it slows the saw down. Fleam defines a saws ability to cross cut. No fleam, no cross cut. I think manufacturers owe you a number representing the fleam angle. Set is probably least critical. You can add it yourself and it goes away with subsequent filings. But some saw makers may put very little because they tested the saw in really soft wood.
Last I looked, Adria was filing less rake than LN. I like the looks of the Gramercy, but I've never held one. With Mike Wenz, you can email him this post and he will know what I'm talking about and be able to respond. I'm not sure the other manufacturers are set up for that sort of custom service.
Adam
Adam,
The website give the PPI (19 point) the material 1095, and the blade thickness (.018). It doesn't give the rake angle - Which suppose it should - zero. Fleam is interesting - sonce it's a hand filed saw the filer tried to give it zero fleam - but since he's human - he doesn't and it gets a little which we really like.
Set is about .003 on a side sometimes a thou more - depending on how aggressive the filing is on that particular file. Some folks love our set - others think it's a little too much. The important thing is that there is no ruffling of the saw plate above the teeth. but the ONLY way to really figure it out is to get a saw an try it. Like most companies if you don't like something we take it back and pay return shipping so you won't be out of pocket (US only). So it seems to me rather than speculate if you or anyone else are in the market for a dovetail saw - and if you can't test them locally buy a few and return the ones you don't like. You won't be out of pocket and you will be able to make an intelligent decision based on what YOU are actually wanting in a saw. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.comEdited 4/19/2008 9:28 am ET by joelmAdam - I do agree with you on full specs so I just added them to the on-line -description. Edited 4/19/2008 9:28 am ET by joelm
Edited 4/19/2008 11:51 am ET by joelm
Hi Adam
I agree with all you say. In fact, I started to write this earlier, then thought twice about it as Peter had already made his choice.
As choices go - based on the facts that are supplied by manufacturers, website or catalogues - the choice of a LN is very reasonable. The average woodworker does not sharpen their own saws, can barely tell the different between crosscut and rip, nevermind know what is the ideal configuration when choosing a purchase.
The way a saw cuts and the way a saw starts the cut, the comfort of the tote - all these can be predicted from a fact sheet, if supplied. However, the only data that I have ever seen supplied is ppi. Does anyone supply tooth rake and fleam, and thickness, length and hang of the tote?
I am certainly no expert here. Far from it. Very far from it! I know enough to sharpen my own saws, and I was wise enough to get Mike Wenzloff to sharpen the IT in a way that (he knew) I would want to use it. The difference between the way the IT cuts and the stock LN cuts is quite noticeable. I wrote this up below:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and%20LieNielsen%20saws.html
I guess that these are issues that come with experience, in the same way that one learns to recognise the correct angle of attack for a plane. Or should manufacturers provide this information when they sell their wares?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I think I would certainly agree that there is no reason not to publish specifications. It makes some aspects of a tools' description more transparent and that's a good. thing. But specs only tell a bit of the story and specifications also can give pre-conceived ideas that are wrong about how the entire whole of a product performs. Good tools are like musical instruments or cameras and lots of the features that make or break a tool for some users isn't about specs - it's about the entire tool as a whole.Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
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