Replies

1. 
   mstens | Apr 23, 2003 05:46am | #1

   I think you'll find as many answers to this as there are with any "whats the best tool" question.  I really like my LN dovetail saw.  But I prefer a pistol grip and the saw is just very comfortable in my hands.  I also prefer western saws to japanese saws.  I'd see if you can try a few out before buying.

2. 
   Clay | Apr 23, 2003 07:18am | #2

   Jack;  Msten meant Lie Nielsen when he referred to LN.  They do make very high grade tools.  I would definitely take a look at theirs being that you want absolute top quality. 

3. 
   BG | Apr 23, 2003 12:47pm | #3

   jack,

   I started cutting dovetails about three months ago.  Tried a dozuki saw and wanted to try a few other alternatives but only the LN is readily available at WW shows and retailers. I bought the LN and it has been a most excellent experience...it has taught me well..how it wants to be held, how much force it will accept and patients.

   I observed Klaus cut dovetails, studied Bob Lowe and bought Ian Kirby's book.  All excellent sources.  However, I do believe, like putting on golf, you need to develop a specific routine and method that is unique to you and that you can replicate time after time.  That takes practice and observing the outcomes from slight variations in marking methods, sawing techniques, etc....in other words, practice. Interestingly, once you understand and have developed a method, I think you'll find the quality of the saw is the least important issue....but its still nice to have and helps generate muscle memory every time you pick it up.  good luck 

4. 
   lostarrow | Apr 23, 2003 06:38pm | #4

   For me, finding the best dovetail saw was a "trial and error " process that took years. I did come to the conculsion that the "best" didn't neccessarily mean the most expensive. I started cutting dovetails back in the '70's and my first saw was a $15 or $20 dozuki from Woodcraft. With Krenov by my side (his book) I was able to achive pretty respectable looking dovetails,but not perfect. Then you get to thiking "maybe it's the saw. If I get a better saw I'll do better".  So I started progressing up the saw line. 30 plus years later I find myself with a pretty comrehesive set of various types of saws that are supposed to be designed to cut dovetails.  The last dozuki saw I purchased was "professional grade" and that didn't cut any better than my cheapie from Woodcraft.  Somewhere along the line I bought an English Tyzack back saw, didn't like that. I tried some of those other $8 - $10 little back saws ( Crown, etc.) There was an old fellow from Maine,( can't think of his name, he was featured in FWW a couple of times) who cut his DT's with a hacksaw. I tried that and it didn't work for me. The problem with all these saws is that they aren't rip saws,they're fine toothed crosscut saws and sawing DT's is a ripping cut. So with those fine toothed crosscuts you got to saw back and forth many times to get to the bottom of the cut,and the longer you seesaw back and forth the more apt you're  going to stray from the line.  A few short years ago I was still looking for the best DT saw when I picked up a Freud ( one of those cheapies)at my local woodworking store and looked at the teeth. Couldn't hardly believe my eyes. It had fine cut rip teeth. Finally someone had the sense to make a backsaw with rip teeth.I took it home and tried it and was amazed. A few short strokes and I was to the bottom of the cut. But I didn't stop there. A couple of years ago I bought the LN dovetail saw and that has to be the ultimate DT saw. You just get it pointed in the right direction and it almost cuts the joint by its self.  Even though I have the LN saw, I still use the little Freud now and then, because ,it also cuts fast. All the rest of those saws just hang on the peg and never get used  anymore. So what all this boils down too, is that I don't think anyone just starting out can go wrong if they start with the $10 - $12 cheapie from Freud. It works for me.

1. 
   BenM | Apr 23, 2003 07:39pm | #5

   Cecil Pierce.  He was more known for his wood planes.  His book "50 Years a Planemaker" is good reading.

1. 
   lostarrow | Apr 23, 2003 07:54pm | #6

   Thank's for jogging my memory. I remembered that he was a plane maker/machinest and that his first name was Cecil ,but I couldn't download his last name.

2. 
   con2nie | Apr 24, 2003 02:25am | #11

   Thanks for taking the time to give me such a comprehensive reply,  and especially thanks for recommeding the $12 Freud.  Jack

1. 
   BG | Apr 24, 2003 02:46am | #12

   Jack,

   I have the Freud also but I don't really agree with Ken.  The handle on the LN is fabulous and trains you well.  Once trained, the Freud works well...but the Freud will not train you...2 cents 

5. 
   alanplanesaw | Apr 23, 2003 09:06pm | #7

   Jack,

   I agree with Ken's history of finding the right saw.  I don't have as much experience as him, but I agree with his conclusions.  I have about 7 "dovetail" saws.  The Lie Nielsen is the most expensive, but it works, right out of the box.  I have an old Disston or Stanley (don't remember right now) that cuts well also.  I bought a barely used Hoosier Tool dovetail saw that cuts probably about as well as the LN.  I have used several others that were much less expensive, but none of them worked.  Have not seen the Freud.

   If I were doing it again -- knowing what I know now -- I would get the Lie Nielsen and not buy anymore.

   Alan -- planesaw

6. 
   jweyerha | Apr 24, 2003 12:26am | #8

   Another brand that I haven't seen mentioned in this particular thread on dovetail saws is Adria.  As some of the other posters have mentioned, there probably is no single best saw out there, but Adria makes one heck of a good one.  You can order them direct from the guy who makes them at http://www.adriatools.com or from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com. 

   No affiliation - just a happy customer.

   Justin

7. 
   SawdustRay | Apr 24, 2003 01:19am | #9

   I started myself about three months ago trying the handcut method.  So I certainly can't back up what I'm about to tell you with 20 plus years of experiance.

   I highly recommend Ian Kirby's book on cutting dovetails.  He walks you through every step on every type of dovetail.  I bought the Japanese saw because for me it gives me more control on the pull and I like the thinner kerf.  Tage Frid (spelling?) uses a bow saw and makes the full cut in three strokes.

   I think it's great you're trying to master hand tools! I think you'll appreciate your work a lot more and learn more about wood in the process.  Good luck!

8. 
   JeffKurtz | Apr 24, 2003 01:36am | #10

   Jack,

   The criticism I've always heard leveled at the Japanese saws is that since they cut on the backstroke, the waste is pulled over your mark making it quite difficult to see.  Additionally, should any tear-out occur, it too will damage your marks.

   Jeff

   P.S.  I tried a Dozuki once and found it too small for my 6' 2" frame.  Besides that, Hondas and Toyotas have better engines.

1. 
   Clay | Apr 24, 2003 07:33am | #13

   So Jeff; you cut with the handle underneath the work with the dozuki's.  That way the waste still exits the bottom of the cut and you can place the work higher where you get a real good look at the marks as you cut.  Just a matter of adjusting to the tools that are at hand.

   Edited 4/24/2003 12:36:22 AM ET by Clay

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Apr 24, 2003 02:28pm | #14

   Then you can't see the horizontal alignment of the blade.  Seems rather important for a dovetail.

   Besides that, Consumer Reports doesn't like their Samurai.  They think it tips over too easily.  (Sorry, but I thought the Dozuki/Honda/Toyota pun was rather good - just trying to get a bit more mileage out of it.  Oops! Guess that rather punny too.)

   Jeff

1. 
   DanClermont | Apr 24, 2003 05:30pm | #15

   I cut my pins and tails with an old $6 Sorby Brass Backed dovetail saw.  I sent it to Tom Law and he sharpened it up for me. Tom can even improve the performance of a new LN. I had a couple of friends do a comparison where one used the LN out of the box, the other sent the LN to Tom Law and the TOm Law saw cut quicker.

   If I didn't find the Sorby I would have bought the Adria Tools saw made by Eddie Sirotech.

   I also have several Japanese saws bought for the purpose of cutting dovetails and can never seem to cut straight with them. They cut well, I just don't position my hand around the handle correctly.

   Good Luck in whatever you choose

   Dan

1. 
   pauld | Apr 24, 2003 07:08pm | #16

   More info on Tom Law, please.

   Thanks,Paul

2. 
   Petey | Apr 25, 2003 06:30am | #21

   Really, more info on Tom Law! I didn't know you could send your saws to him! Petey

3. 
   DanClermont | Apr 25, 2003 06:51am | #22

   Oh yeah,

   Tom is a great guy. He sharpens, sets, joints, retooths and sells old saws (cheaper  then you could buy them on Ebay and they are ready to go.

   He doesn't do e-mail so you will have to send the saw with a note or call him with what you want (he'll want a note on what you want done as well).

   Here is his address and pone number:

   Tom Law

   62 West Water Street

    Smithsburg, MD

   21783

   (301) 824-5223

   Now go easy on him and don't tell anyone ;)

   Dan Clermont in Burnaby

4. 
   Petey | Apr 25, 2003 03:20pm | #23

   Thanks, I won't tell a soul!!!  Petey

9. 
   Napie | Apr 24, 2003 08:02pm | #17

   Since I learned all of my jointery from Tage Frid's books, I cut DT's with a bow saw.  I have made quite a few and the 16" with a wide rip blade is by far the best. Lots of tension and keep it SHARP, which is a skill all woodworkers need to leard and it is not hard, (just like scrapers).  Total investment in a home built saw, $8.00 for the blade, the rest is just nice hard wood scrap. Save the $$$ for LN planes.

10. 
    Colinsdad | Apr 24, 2003 11:46pm | #18

    I also started with a dozuki, and I like they way they cut, but it does require an adjustment to the approach you read in most books because of the positioning and, as mentioned, the waste can cloud your line.  Because I wasn't entirely satisfied with my results, I decided to get a western style DT saw. Woodcraft had a sale and I ended up splurging on a LN.

    You might not think there is much difference in saws, but I am thoroughly pleased and impressed with this saw. It cuts much straighter for me. While I will continue to use my japanese saws, all my DTs will likely be cut with the LN.  Try to get a chance to use one. Its a lot of money, but if you are intent on handcutting DTs you will appreciate it!

    Eric

1. 
   MarkRoderick | Apr 25, 2003 12:29am | #19

   I couldn't agree more. I tried a decent Freud saw and then some Japanese saws, then the LN. The difference was amazing. Swift, accurate cuts with pretty narrow kerfs. What more can one ask from a saw?

11. 
    lostarrow | Apr 25, 2003 02:42am | #20

    To All:

     This is about sawing dovetails. Not about dovetail saws. When I started messing around with wood, old Andy Marlowe was my inspiration. I think it was said that he was the first to write the "how to"books with words and pictures. I jumped right in with booth feet, full of confidence that I could duplicate his pieces. Certainly wasn't as easy as I had imagined but I kept at it. A year or so after I was into this woodworking thing, Krenov appeared on the scene. Wow! more inspiration. Look at this. Look at that. How'd he do that. Look at those dovetails. I bought his books hoping to learn more.  In his first or second book ,I don't recall which one, he tells all about cutting the mighty dovetail joints. I'm reading along,following the pictures that go with his discourse on dovetails ,when I come to the part where he talks about "dovetails with tension". There's a picture of him paring a  pin to fit a socket that has been cut with a slight  curve. Then there's a picture of the completed joint with the slight irregularities showing in the pins and tails. Wow! How about that, I said to myself. I've already mastered one of his joints. His" dovetails with tension" look exactly like mine when I'm sawing and start to waver off the line and then try to steer back on. Results are a tail with a slight curve to it. Of course I never knew if he cut the curvy tails on purpose or did the master wander a wee bit over the line himself. Eventually I learned that it's best to saw the straightest line possible even if you start to wander a bit. Trying to steer back to the line only complicates  things.