…again. There’s an article in the Wall Street Journal about the raid, with a lot of additional examples of musicians having to document the age of their instruments before they take them in / out of the country.
I’m all for sustainable wood – after all, I’ve got quite a few more years on the planet (hopefully), but how do I, as the end-user of wood, or Gibson verify the legality of the products I’m buying? and wouldn’t it be easier for the DOJ to figure that out at the port of entry, rather than in my woodshop?
Replies
The DHS and DOJ etc. don't have the resources to be 100% sure that nuclear devices couldn't get in through our ports. Should they divert money from that effort to inspect every pallet of tropical hardwood?
Besides, shouldn't the economic beneficiaries of using such woods bear the costs of enforcrment instead of taxpayers in general?
Imports
This may be a good time for the Commerce Dept to charge the importers for inspections of ALL imports and make it a bit more advantagious for US Manufacturers to stay at home and produce here. Make here and buy here. Exceptions for RAW materials that can not be obtained in the USA or Canada.
I think we're in violent agreement...
just approaching the problem from different sides. I agree - nuclear weapons are much more important to stop at the borders, that's kind of my point.
Diverting money from that effort to inspect every pallet of hardwood would be criminally riciculous. But how much less efficient is it to go inspect the end-users, apparently one at a time?
Apparently, the administration is maximising their efficiency by only raiding guitar companies that donate to Republicans. ( Martin has had no such intimidation.) Perhaps if Gibson had been walking guns into Mexico, rather than bringing ebony into the US, they'd have been given a pass by the DOJ.
Ray
The sky is falling
That was quick. Only four replies before we got the partisan jab and the obligatory 'the government is out to get us' remark. Oh well, this obviously means that the 2012 apocalypse will now come earlier than expected due to the feds raiding Gibson guitars.
What's America come to! We didn't see this sort of stuff when Chester Arthur was president.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0&feature=player_embedded
Watch this, if you own a piece of wood that COULD have been brought to this country, in violation of the laws of ANOTHER COUNTRY, that wood is subject to seizure and you are subject to prosecution under the terms of the Lacey Act. He's talking about guitars, after they are built, sold to a dealer and sold again to the end user- the end user is liable. True for rosewood, and apparently Madagascar ebony. Do you know, and can you document that your rosewood, Braz or Indian, or ebony was harvested and exported from its country of origin completely within the laws of that country? Do you think you ought to be subject to prosecution if you cannot, or as in the case of Gibson, apparently even if you can, provide that documentation? Do you think that it is possible that Gibson's owners' Republican ties have anything to do with their being singled out twice in the past two years, and Martin guitar co's Dem ties exempted them from a US Marshall SWAT raid? I dunno, but it smells funny to me. Not just Dems, but whoever is in power, if the Fed gov't is large enough.
"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be
much easier to deal with." ('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)
Ray
Partisan Attack?
Given the behavior of this administration, Ray's response is perfectly logical. Obama himself said "we will reward our friends and punish our enemies" . He has shown time and again his enemy is free enterprise and American society. He is simply doing what he said he would do, I'll give him credit for that...
Kind of a knee-jerk reaction there, isn't it? Gibson has been under investigation since before Obama took office.
Just a couple links:
http://consumerist.com/2009/11/feds-raid-gibson-guitars.html
http://fretpoint.com/2009/11/26/gibson-guitars-under-investigation-for-smuggling-illegal-wood/
The sad reality is something has to be done about wood poaching. I believe the Government's approach to all this is unconstitutionally vague. Still, I wouldn't want to be the one to finance the legal actions to prove it.
I constantly see stuff posted on woodworking forums involving the use of exotic woods. Usually I look at the project and think,"Sorry, your design is lacking and googaboola wood isn't going to make it more precious." I've seen a couple furniture projects where exotic woods actually contributed to the design but those aren't all that common. The truth is that googaboola isn't going to keep a poor design out of the landfill and good design is most often independent of precious woods.
If wood was poached in Madagascar, the Madagascan gov't or US Customs agents ought to be the ones dealing with the problem, not the Fish and Wildlife guitar police.
The raid on Gibson could have been effected by a group of accountants armed with warrants. The proof of wrongdoing will be found in the documentation or lack thereof, in Gibson's records. This thing of Federal SWAT teams making "no knock" raids on delinquent student loan holders, raw milk sellers, and musical instrument makers is way beyond ridiculous.
I'm thinking maybe I ought to burn my little stash of googaboola. First, they came for the guitar makers...
Actually Ray, we started the process of disposing of cocobolo, ebony, rosewood and mahogany last weekend. As soon as the heating season arrives it's all going in the wood stove. We haven't purchased any in years, just using small pieces of what we had. I used to have records of when and where all this came from. A little over a year ago, I shredded all the company records over seven years old to avoid the tedious task of going through them page by page to get in compliance with the financial industry's personal data security standards.
I didn't say I agreed with the Government's approach to all this. The assertion that the Gibson raid was the result of some political vendetta of the President is absurd and pure BS given that the first raid happened during the previous administration.
This is a huge PIA for us. We ship stuff through customs regularly and they appear to be the trigger mechanism for investigation. I'm sitting here looking at my very stained fingers from spending yesterday experimenting with dyes and a several hard, dense split resistant woods to figure out a replacement for the googaboola we've been using. I knew this day was coming, I just wish it hadn't arrived right now.
Larry,
The first raids you linked to, Larry were conducted in '09 almost a year after the current administration took office. While it is possible, even likely, that the investigation may have begun before the last presidential election, there is ample evidence showing that the folks running the DoJ are selective about the cases they pursue for prosecution. A political motivation for such picking and choosing is not limited to the present occupants of those offices, or of this administration, I hasten to add. My beef is with the size and intrusiveness of gov't, more than the current wielders of that power. It is getting harder and harder to pretend that Big Brother is not looking over your shoulder at everything you do. Is it any wonder that if conducting business is such a PIA for a little operation like yours, and that the effect of news like the Gibson raid is so chilling, that manufacturing and commerce, nationwide, is slowing with every quarterly report?
It's not just Fish and Wildlife wood snatchers. Boeing is told it can't build a new factory in a right to work state. Raids on Rabbit farms, and Amish farmers selling milk; health food stores. Kids selling lemonade on the streetcorner are being shut down,for for crissake.Our president blames it on Dubya, a tsunami half a world away, events in the middle east, Tea Party Hobbits gridlocking Mordor on the Potomac, and ATM's.
No. Atlas is shrugging.
The laid-back googaboola boogie
I can neither confirm nor deny that I may have sold a couple guitars on the elctronic auction web site known as "ebay" in the last two years. I'd like to invoke my fifth amendment rights in response to any further specific questioning about that subject.
I may or may not have played "Stairway to Heaven" on my 1996 Lake Placid Blue Fender Japan stratocaster with "Texas Special" pickups and East Indian rosewood fretboard this morning. I have documentation to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that I purchased subject guitar in Tokyo in 1997 while stationed there with US military forces and I am prepared to produce a sales receipt with more kanji writing than a Beni-Hani menu to prove this.
I'll see you in court, guitar police!
There is plenty of info about the 1900 Lacey Act and it's most recent amendments. A basic overview is here,
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&hl=en&spell=1&q=cache:U12T11mQ2bUJ:http://www.eia-global.org/lacey/P6.EIA.LaceyReport.pdf+congressional+vote+on+lacey+act+amendments&ct=clnk
it's all coming together...
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/08/new-scandal-at-doj-as-illegal-guitars-end-up-in-hands-of-mexican-drug-lords.html
battle of the cartel bands
LOL
Iowahawk
Ray: I thought you made that up 'till I clicked on it. What a hoot.
Haha Swen,
Details at 11:00...on American Idol
Ray
Sort of silly
The sad part is the foolish laws, the raids and all the rest won't save ebony anyway. If it's not used here the Chinese or the Ukrainians or the Peruvians will use it.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled