Picture a box to go on the front of a bicycle. This box is open at the top. It is to carry a small dog of around seven to ten pounds. There are no struts or supports coming up to the bottom. The sole attachment is on the upright back side of the box using struts to the handlebars of the bike.
I saw this box as a prototype for possible low production and sale on a small scale.
Now the real question. The joinery bugs me. The box is made from ~1/4″ HomeDepo plywood. The faces are joined using PVA glue at the edges and screws into “end grain” for lack of better description. You know; through drilled holes in the sides and straight in between the plys with no corner blocks. The bottom is the same.
The edges are cut using a plywood blade on a small portable tablesaw.
Isn’t this structure going to fail in short order? There is constant vibration and jarring on a bike not to mention good sized hits going through dips and up driveway curb cuts.
Am I nuts or is this going to come apart? I know finger box joints or corner blocks or alu. angle would all be more secure joinery. This isn’t my project. I am just wondering if I should keep my mouth shut because I am over reacting or is a little dog going to get hurt and I should speak up ?
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/12/2009 12:27 am by roc
Edited 4/12/2009 12:28 am by roc
Replies
roc,
Speak up. There is no reason that a dog carrier should be constructed in any less of a manner than a child carrier.
Definitely speak up.
-Jerry
Thanks Nazard!I may need some facts/examples of failure from using this type of joinery. To convince him. Has any one seen an edge glued and screwed jointed box similar to this fail during dynamic duty ?I hear the quality of cheep plywood from China etc. has gone down in recent years so that is one thing to point to.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
One approach would be to suggest this person switch to a 14" wide, low-pressure balloon tire in the back. That way, the dog won't be cut in half by the narrow tire when the box fails and the dog drops to the ground. I'd also suggest nitrile booties, so the dog's feet don't become infected by additives in the imported plywood.
>Fat tire and nitrile booties<Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, haer um I mean. . . hey ! This is serious ! This is a dog ( or a few ) we are talking about here. It isn't like he can turn on his nine lives indestructibility field and escape unscathed like most cats.Sounds like ( or lack of sounds like ) I may be over reacting. My intuition, for what that is worth, says it will be no problem. My snobbish woodworkerness says BAD JOINERY ! ! ! MUST ACT ! ! ! SOUND THE ALARM ! ! !heck . . . I don't know . . .come to think of it he may have used the old Gorilla Glue that he has lying around. Ooooh Gaaawd ! It's gonna fail isn't it ? Ooooh Gaaawd ! rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/12/2009 1:13 pm by roc
Being a joinery snob isn't all bad. ;-)But, I don't think you were over-reacting. While I like to inject a little humor (very little, some say), I was quasi-serious about how you might depict the risk at which the person is putting their poor pup. There may be more than enough pups to go around, but that doesn't mean any of them should be maimed or injured through poor engineering.
I would use 1" x 1" square posts in the corners and mill slots for the 1/4" plywood, no need for screws or nails. The bottom can be put in with cleats glued to the 1/4" plywood. This would make for a very strong box and add little weight.
Edited 4/12/2009 3:34 pm ET by mrbird90
>Corner blocks milled<Thank You ! He might go for that because it is relatively quick to make compared to drilling for the screws and putting them in.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
That should hold together just fine.
Until it's mounted to the handlebars of a bicycle and a dog placed inside. ;-(
I hope this thing comes with a doggie crash helmet included, 'cause Fido is headed for the pavement.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
PS: I saw a guy on a Harley a couple of weeks ago who had his dog sitting (unrestrained!) in a milk crate bungied to the seat behind him. Dog looked pretty happy, too. Funny thing was, the guy was wearing full leathers & a helmet. Just struck me as a bit odd. Dog did look pretty happy, tho'! Didn't see if he had any tatoos. ;-)
"Didn't see if he had any tatoos."The dog or the guy? ;-)
Hmmm. Now that you mention it . . . .
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
If you have a 1" x1" x 6" post in each corner and 1/4" plywood panel glued into a 1/4" wide slot bY 3/8" Deep I gaurantee this joint won't fall apart unless you put a sledge hammer to it. The dog will die of old age before this box falls apart.
I'll buy that -- but that's not how the OP described the box as being made.
I can't imagine anyone thinking it's a good idea to try to build a servicable box by right angle butt joining 1/4" luan, even if (maybe especially if) it's also "strengthened" by driving screws into the edge grain of the ply.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
>post in each corner<No thats good. I do appreciate the encouragement of the corner block suggestion. That is probably the ticket.If I could get a definite kill from some body here having a structure come apart at the screws/split the plys then maybe I could get up the courage to approach the builder. He is pretty good with his metal work and mechanical. Though I fear he is reluctant to embrace tradition in the wood department.OK the coup de grâce; this person is my boss and is making these at work when things are slow. ( we were quite busy lately by the way ) Shall I approach him or send in an ambassador ?If I had an "Oh yah tried that it came apart" from someone here then I will try to take the hill. Come on someone don't be embarrassed . . . you should have seen my first few tries at dovetails; complete disasters . . .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/13/2009 9:23 pm by roc
roc,
OK, how about some of those brass corner brackets you see on boxes that wrap around the edge of the wood such that the fasteners go through the flat sides instead of the ends. If ye use long enough screws...................
No I guess I'd better not say that.
:-(
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/14/2009 10:46 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I believe you are right, that this will fail; but it probably won't will fail suddenly. If the bike rider is able to keep an eye on the box, he will see it becoming wobbly or lopsided before it dis-assembles into it's original parts.
Tell the guy to bring extra glue & clamps with him, so he can re-build on the side of the road. And a tent, so he can wait over-night for the glue to set-up completely. And dogfood & water. And food & water for himself. And a change of clothes. Maybe the extra weight of a stonger box IS a better idea.
Do a slow motion view at the beginning of the "Wizard of Oz" Fine example there. ;-)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Now that's funny !I can just see all the parts flying around with the dog's ears fluttering in the wind.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Ha ha. I thought about mentioning that but thought it would be too smart-aleck-y. Yeah, you gotta have a rig at least as good as what Dorothy was running. The little guy in the basket probably needs some sort of supplemental restraint system and cranium protection, too."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Welp . . . no body wrote in with a joinery failure from using screws into edge of plywood so I guess it "proves" this is sound joinery . . . every one of the countless boxes out there joined this way is holding up just fine . . . ? . . .Makes me wonder why I am bothering with all this sawing and fit'n of pins and tails . . . who needs a box joint cutting jig when we have screws . . . ? . . .Well that settles it ! There is officially a new "traditional" "fine woodworking" "quality" joint that has remained hidden until now and my boss has unearthed it and brought it into the light of day. Next we will find out the Egyptians were using this joinery on their plywood pyramid building cranes and what not and the technique was forgotten during the dark ages.Hows that for too smart-aleck-y ?But I must fess up to the apparent facts. No failures is no failures. Zero, nada, zip, big O.Oooo I was looking at the original one he made that didn't go so far as to get painted. Looks like he was using the table saw without a fence just pushing the sheet into the blade and hoping for the best. It wasn't pretty.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
roc,
See, ur a smarty pants. Nyah, nyah, nyah nyah, nyaaaaah.
Why don't ye take one of those big weaved baskets and attach some cabriole legs to it for braces. You could cut holes in the bottom and shove the leg posts up through em and nail em to the corners. That'd show him.
See if ye kin sneek a pic of his freehand sawn box when he aint lookin.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
>pic of his freehand sawn box<Well I thought that over and figure what the heck he has progressed rapidly past that bad patch, pun in tended, so why revisit it.Either that or he has gotten much better with the wood filler ; ) under all that paint.I was looking at the unpainted reject today and it was put together with finish nails so there has been "great" strides in the fastener department since those early days.He has jettisoned the frictional cohesive binders and taken up the helicoid.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/19/2009 7:14 am by roc
Dog Carrier UpdateHe was building a couple of new ones today. The edges looked straight so he must be using the fence on the table saw now.I was surprised to see when he screwed in the screws they did tighten down at the last and not just give and turn and turn. He has like five along the long side. Uses Titebond II. These things may stay together.Once again everything I thought I knew is being shattered. Screws into edges of 1/4" plywood. . . screws getting a bite. . . plys not splitting open. What next ? Cutting dovetails with an axe ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/24/2009 3:02 am by roc
roc,
Pssssssst, I shouldn't be tellin ye this but I got the straight scoop from RELIABLE source on the WEB. Yur boss is messin wit yer heed!
I seen 'im lurkin in here this mornin. He knows ye is up all hours of the night futzin around on yer 'puter so ye aint up. Sees what you posted last night then comes to work and sets ye up agin.
He tol me that he predrilled the holes, filled 'em wit poxy, drilled 'em out again and screwed em tagither!
I think that guy is pretty clever with the lever ye know.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I knew it, I knew ITHey thanks !He will go to any lengths I tell you.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
There's now the option of using a (now surplus) Easter basket. Just clip the handle, add a couple of hose clamps, and he'd be all set. Plus, I'm sure the dog's bottom would appreciate the green straw left in the basket. ;-)
Ralph,
Eggxactly!
-nazard
>green straw<Nah doggie's bottom has a posh pillow and looks all custom made. It actually is well done in that respect.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
This sounds suspiciously like the carriers we used to use to deliver newspapers with.
Struts from the front of the box down to the axle nuts of the wheel take out most of the stress.
Eric
Yes you are right. He is dead set to make it easy on / easy off. He sold one to some body with a much bigger dog today.Although to his credit I think he turned away the guy with the german shepard ( at least until he builds a bigger version ) .: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc, please be sure to post photos of the heavily bandaged dogs that come back with the complaints. ;-)
They will probably bite their "master" in the crotch.Gosh I never thought of it before . . . do you suppose this is why people are getting all these wee small dogs? One customer said "Oh look a rat on a string". To be fair I almost bought an Italian Greyhound. Quite small like a miniature doberman.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/27/2009 5:52 am by roc
"Get your string, Fidette. Let's go for a scurry."Many of the miniaturized breeds seem to be high-strung and hyper to me. But, even rat-dogs deserve the proper attention of their owner/caretaker.
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