Replies

1. 
   Kevin | May 21, 2003 06:04am | #1

   David,

   My guess is that nobody responded because nobody was sure what to tell you. Perhaps some more info would help...

   1. How long did you allow each succeeding step/coat to dry before proceeding to the next?

   2. What was the sheen rating of the initial four coats of poly?

   3. Was the last coat of satin poly the same brand as the other poly used in the previous coats?

   In my experience with solvent based clears there are generally two things that can cause the sheen to not turn out as advertised. One would be insufficient aggitation of the clear prior to use... meaning that the flatting agent hadn't been uniformly dispersed within the clear. The second would be the application of too thick a coat of clear which results in some of the flatting agent settling down below the surface, where it can't have any effect on the final sheen. But that should have yielded too high a gloss, not too low of a gloss.

   Another thing to keep in mind when shopping for clear finishes is to look at the product data sheet if one is available. A given gloss range that one company will call a "satin", another company will call a "matte." Even within a given company's offerings there can be a fairly wide range of gloss for a given sheen designation from product to product. I've seen this with Sherwin Williams. Instead of "gloss", "semigloss", "satin" etc... Sherwin Williams often refers to BRE (bright rubbed effect), MRE (medium rubbed effect), and DRE (dull rubbed effect). But the gloss rating of a particular nitro lacquer at "DRE" might be higher or lower than a conversion varnish which SW also rates at "DRE." That's why I always ask for a product data sheet. That way I know if the clear is gonna meet my specific need or not.

   If you had properly mixed the "satin" poly before using it... and if it is compatible with the other poly, then there's no reason why you couldn't mix them to get a custom sheen.

   As for rubbing out your coffee table to bring the sheen up a bit... I don't see why you couldn't do that provided the existing finish is completely cured out.

   The nagging question in the back of my mind about your problem is whether the two polys were compatible with each other. If they are and everything was given enough time to cure between coats then I suspect that the flatting agent in the last coat wasn't properly mixed in prior to use.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   user-55277 | May 21, 2003 08:57pm | #3

   Thanks, Kevin.  I suspect that the key part of your answer fits quite well.  The finishes I used were from the same manufacturer and identical except for gloss level,  and the drying time was well beyond the minimum of six hours, usually over night.  I'm reasonably confident that I mixed the satin finish thoroughly.  I suspect that the answer lies in your suggestion that different manufactuers have different definitions of satin and low lustre.

     I think I will follow your advice and that of Howie following.  I'll let it cure thoroughly, and then rub it to a higher sheen.  If, as Howie suggests, that means that I cut it back to a previous gloss layer, then I'll rub that down to the sheen level I want.

   Thanks for replying.  Your comments give me the confidence to try and fix it.

   David

2. 
   scooter1 | May 21, 2003 09:36pm | #6

   I am not an expert on finishing but do understand that the difference between satin and gloss is only some particles in the liquid that reflect light. It is not thicker, only shinier.

   I like using only gloss finish, Minwax Gloss Spar Varnish. I always thin the finish down by about 10-20% with mineral spirits. Use a good quality brush, only stroke in one direction and only once (no back and forth painting, right?) and keep the edge of the brush on a wet surface of the wood. In other words, don't run it dry. When it starts to run out of finish, stop, re-apply to the brush, and start on a wet edge.

   When I want a deep satin sheen instead of a high gloss, I just knock it down with some steel wool or some 600 grit wet dry sandpaper.

   So, I would lightly scuff up the surface of your project with some 220 grit paper, and then apply the high gloss varnish. After it cures (wait a couple of days, it can still be sorta soft after 24 hours), knock it down with some 0000 steel wool or some 600 grit wet dry.

   After knocking it down to the desired sheen, top with some paste wax to give some depth.

   This works for me.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

1. 
   Kevin | May 21, 2003 10:59pm | #8

   Boris,

   You are basically right about what differentiates a gloss from a satin. The only thing I'd add would be that the amount of flatting agent on the surface of the clear is what differentiates a gloss from a satin in the vast majority of clears. There are some new fangled clears (mostly automotive in my experience) that achieve a lower sheen with a totally uniform, almost milky look due to the particular type of flatting agent used. But, with most clears the amount of flatting agent that's below the dry surface is irrelevant to the finished gloss level. That's why rubbing a given clear will typically change the sheen - because you're altering the surface to reflect light differently.

2. 
   user-55277 | May 21, 2003 11:01pm | #9

   Boris,

     It looks like rubbing out my finishes is the next step on the learning curve.  Howie said that he used lower gloss finishes on the legs and skirts etc., but everyone has recommended the same thing - rub the gloss finish to the level desired.

   Thanks for the specific advice.

   David

2. 
   HowardAcheson | May 21, 2003 08:35pm | #2

   First, the sheen of any product can be very different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Second, depth is a function of gloss. The glossier the finish the more apparent depth.

   For the "money" surface(s) of a project, I do not use a lower sheen formulation. Instead, I work to the sheen I want by use of abrasives. Everyone has a somewhat different idea of what sheen they want. I only use a gloss finish except for areas that are minimally visiable such as table skirts, legs, etc. where I will use a lower gloss product.

   I would suggest you get "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Flexner and "Great Wood Finishes" by Jewitt. These books will give you the info you need to "finish the finish" to the gloss you want.

   Most times, I flat sand the finish lightly with 400 W&D paper, then use 4/0 steel wool pads. Work with the grain in long, heavy strokes until you get the sheen you want. Then I generally finish off by applying a paste wax using white Scotchbrite material.

   In this case, I would try sanding with 320 on a sanding block to remove the top layer but let the finish fully cure for 2-3 weeks first. Then apply a coat of the gloss and let it cure for at least a week.

   I'll finish by saying that you should never be surprised by a finish. Always go through your finishing schedule and process on scrap material from your project. It will make you more familier with the process and you will see how it comes out. It's the place to experiment. Pro finishers will almost always do this if only to get the approval of the customer before committing to the finish.

1. 
   user-55277 | May 21, 2003 09:01pm | #4

   Howie,

     Thanks for the specifics in your reply.  I've read both of those books, and when the time comes in a few weeks to try and fix this one I'll read them again.

     I guess that if I want to be that particular about the finish on a piece, then I have to be prepared to take the time to do the finish on scraps as you suggest.  One more step on the learning curve.  Fortunately, once done the experience goes into the memory bank for next time.

   I really appreciate the specifics of your suggestions.  That will be the route I will try.

   David

2. 
   Kevin | May 21, 2003 11:08pm | #10

   I absolutely agree with you, Howie, that depth is a function of gloss and that to get depth requires a higher gloss. I don't think one necessarily has to go with a full gloss to get depth per se. But, obviously both depth and sheen are functions of how one visually percieves the subject and therefore the two are inherently linked issues.

   Nice post!

1. 
   scooter1 | May 22, 2003 12:29am | #11

   It amazes me how stupid and inexperienced I am as a woodworker, yet I can sometime get it right. I think it is purely an accident.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

3. 
   ChasStanford | May 21, 2003 09:26pm | #5

   Your initial regimen appears to me to be making something complicated out of something easy.  Forget the poly.  I would suggest trying one of the Tried and True finish products.  These should get you where you want to be.  You can also use wax to impart a bit of additional protection and a nice, warm glow.  The Tried and True varnish product uses a natural pine resin, not polyurethane. 

   I did not read the FW article, but I am dubious as hell of any finishing routine that has you applying five coats of polyurethane, unless it has been markedly diluted.  I don't like polyurethane.  I've never seen a poly finish that did not scream poly finish - muddy surface and all.  It reeks of assembly line woodworking.

   The finish that I think will please you most is not one of the typical large manufacturers' satin poly assembly line jobs.  What you most likely want is that old, burnished glow of a nice antique.  The Tried and True (or even plain 'ole Watco) plus a little wax will get you there.  Don't buy all the hype about so-called 'protection.'  Just don't let spills sit over the weekend and you'll be fine.

   Your immediate fix is to strip the finish that you've already applied and start over from the beginning.  There is no magic solution to fix what is already fouled up.

   It would be a major bitch to do all the sanding and reapplication that has been suggested only to find that you are still not pleased.

   Buy some T&T, try it on some project scrap.  I just about guarantee that you'll want to strip what you've done and start over.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/21/2003 2:37:32 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD

1. 
   user-55277 | May 21, 2003 10:57pm | #7

   Chas,

     Just to clarify, the FW article only referrred to scraping instead of sanding to the 220 level.  The number of coats of poly were my decision.  And yes, you're right, it was the protection aspect that persuaded me.

     Your suggestion of getting some Tried and True and trying it out on some scrap before deciding whether to start over again might be the best idea.  I don't think I have anywhere near enough faith to use good ole Watco and wax, however.  What might be easiest of all would be to make a new shelf and frame for the glass top and finish it properly.

   David

1. 
   ChasStanford | May 22, 2003 03:29am | #12

   Give it a whirl. 

   For God's sake don't get too caught up in the organic chemistry implicit in all this crap.  Find a few products that you like and use them well.