I am in a dilemma regarding the business practice of a tool vendor. Some choices that occur to me are:
1. Do nothing, get on with my life, because I can live with the situation.
2. Pursue this matter further because business practices ought to be reasonable and fair. Almost all woodworkers I have met are nice people, and intelligent. Even if I do not personally gain anything, I should bring the matter to light for what it tells us about the vendor, for the sake of the woodworking community.
3. Stop being unreasonable and expecting people to supply the goods “as billed”. Accept that businesses exaggerate attributes of what they are trying to sell, and that everyone has to make money one way or another.
4. All is well, I have got it all wrong
I’ll summarize the facts, and request input from forum readers who care to comment. For now, I’ll leave the specifics out to protect the innocent and the guilty alike.
I recently purchased a woodworking machine from a vendor. This is my first purchase from them. The positive things said in this forum about that vendor made an impression on me, and I took the plunge.
The catalog says “ Its massive weight of over 1,200 lbs. …”. The machine was delivered recently. Some time later it was moved into the shop, uncrated and set up. In the process of cleaning it up I noticed that there is a specifications label on the machine, and it says the weight is 900 lbs. I was not too thrilled about this situation.
I wrote a letter to the president of the company, with supporting documentation, saying that many people in the industry are of the view that once past the hobbyist units, one pays for such a tool on a $’s/lb basis, because the better ones have more cast iron in them. And, that this is a view I share. I indicated that I would like to give them an opportunity to propose a remedy, before considering other paths or actions. I also pointed out that I had gone to a lot of trouble and expense to have the machine moved into the shop and was thus far willing to keep it, but I feel they need to make this up to me.
A response has arrived apparently signed by the president of company. It says they weighed the machine and it weighs 1,202 lbs. crated, and encloses a photo of the crate and a close up of the digital scale. He thanks me for bring the matter to their attention, says they will change the label, and apologize for the error.
Upon receipt of the above letter, I looked into the matter some more. There was a label on the crate that I had saved. It indicates the net weight as 970 lbs., (converted from Kg) and gross 1,080 lbs. I have not made/had made an independent weighting of the machine yet.
So there you have it, fellow woodworkers, what would you do in this situation?
Replies
Hmmm - well, if it were business in the United States as I would like it to be in the early 21st century, then businesses would let their yes's be yes's and their no's be no's so to speak i.e. you could count on their claims to be accurate and people would be outraged if they were not. But that is not the way it is, and I doubt that too many people would get torked by a weight discrepancy.
Aside from the weight discrepancy, which you have not verified - does the machine perform as advertised and you expected? If the answer is yes, then I would drop it. If not, then I would address the performance issue with the manufacturer first, yell here later if no satisfaction.
Alfred,
If this were a standing rib roast, I'd be upset. Did they charge you by the pound for this machine?
Cheers,
Ray
I think you're making a mountain out a mole hill.
Any problems with the way the machine is made far "outweigh'' this issue.
I can't imagine why you hesitate in saying what machine/what company -- especially since you were apparently influenced to some extent in your purchase by comments in this forum.
The machine is not operational, so can't report on performance yet . Various bolts, washers and nuts required for assembly are back ordered. I have been talking with their tech. support guys to work it out.
I was influenced positively by the weight of the machine. But no, the price was not stated on a $'s/lb. basis.
So far I have chosen not to indicate the name of the company because I wanted to get objective opinions in such a situation, and that is regardless of the company.
Quite honestly, I don't think I've ever made a buying decision based on the weight of a tool or machine. For me, the weight would only affect the difficulty I may have getting it on/off of the truck. Weight would also affect shipping sharges.
Did the advertising list the weight as 'net weight', or shipping weight? If it gave shipping weight, this is on you since packaging and crating are included in that number. If the ad is ambiguous, you may have a legitimate beef.
It would really help to know what you bought and where you bought it.
Edited 2/5/2005 10:15 am ET by Dave
The ad said it was 1200# AND there are parts on backorder? Not good. Yes, the machine probably came from overseas, but their parts packets should be checked frequently to make sure the customer isn't shorted. The machine is useless without them. The parts should have been shipped overnight to you. If the ad lists weight and yours is less than that, it could be false advertising. It could fall under the "prices and specifications subject to change without notice" area.They aren't doing their due diligence.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You seem pretty fired up about this so I wish you well in your dealings with the mystery company. (Hmmm, I just had a quick mental image of a guy in a suit of armor, on a horse, with a lance, gallopinging furiously toward a windmill. - lol)
I really wish you would say what machine it is and where you got it. I sometimes get a lot of fun out of hunting for the loopholes in ads.
Good Luck
It wasn't me who bought the machine with the missing parts, it was Alfred. I'm very happy with my Grizzly tools.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Alfred,
No, we don't buy them by the pound, but many of us who have been through this process, buying sight unseen, get very confused over weight discrepencies.
Many times it'll be the posted weight difference between two alternatives that helps explain why the 'Super Heavy Duty' is better than the 'Heavy Duty'...usually there is little else to distinguish. It seems to me to be a rather large weight difference...perhaps caused by the wrong size 'wings' if that's relevant...so it does need a bit of clarification...
Weight is a non issue in my mind unless the shipping charges are based on it which they usually are but you said, as I understood it, the billed shipping weight was accurate. I haven't noted what kind of machine it is or what your use will be. I would be a mildly dissapointed but if the machine sat firmly and vibrations were minimal I'd not sweat it.
But missing parts is a whole other matter! Any company worth it's salt would next day them to you free. A tech to come over and make sure it's all there now and assist in figuring it out since they have sold you a partial tool a nice touch that would have me forgiving all.
Sounds like it's been a while. Let us know the particulars. Especially if you've yet to recieve satisfaction.
Perhaps you could inform them of this and other forums and explain diplomatically that we share good and bad experiences and you have politley held back their name but your patience has run out
Notrix
I spent about $200 on a 'brass' bed frame for my daughter a couple of years ago from a retailer about 60km away. One of the components was incorrect and had to be replaced from his supplier in Sydney.
4 days later the retailer was in my house assembling the bed, which had originally been sold dissassembled.
I would be looking for that level of service from any supplier who expects my bussiness for consumables (blades, bearings etc) over the comming years.
If it were me, I would have simply dropped them a line and notify them of a "catalog error" re: the weight, and then put it out of my mind (I only have so many brain cells left, and this discrepancy is definitely not one I'd waste them on.
Of much more concern to me would be the missing assembly parts and their delay in getting them to you.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
This is actually to Alfred, I just spazzed when I posted it. The weight wouldn't bother me so much unless the difference makes the machine topheavy or otherwise unstable. If it was a contractor's tablesaw and the difference was 20% less weight in the base, for instance, it would be pretty dicey using it. I guess you just got the 1%(a typical goal of manufacturers for their defective products) where something was left out, but they really should fire the parts out to you overnight, regardless of whether it was Friday afternoon when you called. Along with either a letter or phone call.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/5/2005 1:54 pm ET by highfigh
Why don't you weigh the machine? It could be the label is in error.
If you like the machine keep it, if not return it.
I am sure there are more important things to do with your life.
If this is a lathe, then weight could be an issue, but one easily fixed using wet sand. I can't think of any other machine where the weight differnece would make an impact on machine performance or capabilities. Certainly I don't see it affecting the performance of the Grizly G9860 12" jointer that you are talking about, but have not said so.
Before you go too much further, however, I would weigh what you have and determine what it really weighs--assuming you have all the parts. I would not trust a shipping label anymore than a catalog claim. Then I would suggest you consider what is more important to you in your relationship with Grizzly. My experience with them is that you will need their service department in the future, and a good working relationship will bring out the benefit of their lower prices.
Thank you all for your input. I’ll do my best to respond to your comments. First the facts, since some of you have asked for them.
The unit is a Grizzly 9860 12” Jointer. The relevant catalog page can be seen at their web site it you go to the page for this model, click on more info, and scroll down to a link for the catalog page. I also looked into the available information more and here is a summary of what I found:Net over 1,200 lbs. / Ship 1,253 lbs. - as per catalogNet ?? lbs./ Ship 1,080 lbs. - as per spec. sheetNet 970 lbs. / Gross 1,080 lbs. - as per label on crate (converted from 440/490 kg)Weight 900 lbs. – as per spec. label on unitCrated weight 1,202 lbs. – as per letter from President of the company … you decide how to interpret the information.
I am keeping the machine, and will deal with situations as they arise. There doesn’t seem much point in pursuing this further with the company because I wrote to the President of the company and received a reply already. They have passed on the opportunity to acknowledge an error and to correct it going forward. Their view is clear, and the tone of the letter comes across to me as somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
Some day I’ll weigh the machine to satisfy my own curiosity, using an opportunity when it arises in the course of doing something else. If I do it now I’ll have to bring in two guys with suitable equipment at a cost of at least a couple of hundred $s, and I am not inclined to do so. If the company seemed to take any ownership of the situation I would have said lets have it weighed and certified by professionals. If it meets the catalog specs (I’d even give then a 25 lb. grace), I would be responsible for costs, else they pay, and clean up their act across all product lines in fair disclosure of specs going forward. However, such is not the case.
One wonders of course, as to what one might conclude about a company that knowingly exaggerates a key characteristic, and then touts it as a feature. “Caveat emptor (buyer be ware)”, I suppose. If you have a decent product, and it is a value proposition, where is the need for such an approach to selling? Rhetorical question, no answer expected.
Regarding parts:The machine was delivered on January 4, and moved to the shop and uncrated on January 14. On January 17 I called for missing assembly parts, and replacement of the rusted supplied fasteners for assembly, as well as touch up paint for the scuffed areas. Parts started to trickle in January 25. Some washers arrived January 27, included two that were missing parts described in the manual as “special washers 5/8” ID 3 mm thick 38 mm OD”, that I believe are better described as spacers, and are critical for fence assembly. The fence seat rests on them, thus elevating the fence off the bed by their thickness. The hotchpotch of supplied washers had no two that were alike. Nothing even close to the above-specified washers was included, even though listed on the packing sheet. The two largest washers were way off in ID and OD, and 9/1,000 different in thickness between the two. If installed under the fence seat those washers would probably cause the two ends of the fence to be significantly off. For the curios: see page 11 of the online manual on the web site.
I called and asked to speak to a tech. who had been responsive and said that those two “washers” are mission critical and 98% of my concern. I would take the responsibility of cleaning the rusted parts and repainting them, if he would make sure I get those two items and that they are as specified. To his credit, he called me a few days later and said he had checked the inventory personally, and was sending me the two that were closest to each other. Yesterday February 5 they arrived. I put a micrometer to them and found they are “0.695” ID “0.158” thick and 1.75” OD”. I am guessing that the ID and OD discrepancies will be OK. In thickness the two are close enough, and I am hoping that the thickness of 0.158 rather than 0.118 works out and does not impact the fence setup.
Regarding the techs: I have spoken to a number of them in this matter. I’d say that like with any other company, my experience varied based on whom I spoke with. One said I should go to an auto parts store and buy the parts. Another has been as-good-as-it-gets, and took responsibility for following through, and did. Others are in between, closer to the latter. So all in all, I am fine regarding the tech department and hope to keep it that way. I would have preferred if all the parts were there, and in usable condition. That was not the case, but the service techs did not make it so. Rather, they did what they could, working with what was available to them. I find that satisfactory.
Once I get those "spacers" in, can properly mount the fence, and fire up and use the jointer, I'll post comments.
David: ….windmill?Paul: nice sleuthing. I had started to write this post last night and finished it just now, but I see you figured out the unit.
IMO It is no wonder that the reply is tongue in cheek .How do you expect to be taken seriously complaining about advertised weight?I think you that you spoil the chances of getting good service over the things that matter(ie fence spacers) by destroying your credibility.Though even those could be made out of brass yourself with a bit of inginuity(I hasten to add that you should'nt have to!)Anyway the bottom line is you have a good machine even though you feel it is like puchasing scrap metal by the pound
By "galloping furiously toward a windmill", Dave was referring to Don Quixote.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/6/2005 12:11 pm ET by highfigh
When I first read this post I did not have too much of an opinion either way. I happen to be flipping thru Fine Woodworking, April, 2003. They did a drill press review. Nine floor models compared. We all own drill presses, they all look about the same and are pretty close in price. Eight of the drills weighted between 154# and 200#. The Grizzly was listed at 275#. 75# more than the next heaviest, almost two times as heavy as the lightest. I find that hard to believe. So what gives, I think Grizzly may have a problem with their specs. Let's hope it's only with converting from metric to US in weight. How would you ever know if that 3hp motor is only developing 2 1/4 horse.
Now weight alone would not bother most of us but being off on hp by 25% to 30% is going to make a difference.
I also know that Grizzly offers many of us the opportunity to have machines that we could never afford or justify if we had to buy American made only, but honesty and confidence are much needed qualities in a company that we are spending a lot of money with.
Bear
Edited 2/7/2005 8:41 pm ET by Bear
If anyone at Grizzly had a problem converting from KG to pounds, they need to get some new people 'cause it's not very hard to do. I doubt that it was this simple. It was probably more like a manufacturing change that didn't make it to press very quickly. With the scrap metal market being as freaked out as it has been lately, using less cast iron in places where it won't matter makes sense and it doesn't take much to come out to 250 lb. If this is the case, whoever dropped the ball when it came to coordinating the arrival of the lighter machines with the specs needs to be beaten soundly about the head and neck. I would make some additional calls to the company, though. Be the squeaky wheel. If you don't get results from one person, ask to talk to another, or a manager.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hey man, let it go!!!!!
I've bought and seen several Grizzly products and I'm pleased with my results. If you check out several (American owned) power tool companies they're all made in the same factory with a different paint color or labeling (mostly out of country). By the way guys, have you ever put a foredom hand piece on a Grizzly power carver? Have you ever noticed that the Woodstock International's catalog has the same three warehouse locations as Grizzly? How about the Carba-tec lathe I didn't pay $264.95 for because I bought the same tool with a different color paint for $159.95? You ever compare the Shop Fox 14" band saw to the Grizzly 14" Ultimate 14" band saw? The list could fill up every page of next month's FWW. Compare the major players products some time! This is a common practice on items from computers to automobiles. My best friend was upset with Grizzly because his shaper table had a .003 dip in it from edge to edge. How many of you woodworkers can cut or hand sand any board within .003. He's more concerned with his digital caliper and dial indicator readings than he is about making a family member a gift that will pass to future generations. Let's enjoy our hobby and don't make such a big deal out of this petty stuff.
The above opinions are mine and given with due respect to all.
Delbert
This has been an interesting thread, and I thank everyone who cared to share his or her views. Now I’d like to distill some observations.
1. Our system of commerce relies on trust to a large extent. We say what we will do, and we do what we say. There are of course violators. There is false advertising and there is failure to deliver, and we see and hear of such things every day. Violators face consequences. These include the rule of law, the court of public opinion (word of mouth), and market forces (we vote with our feet). Or, they get to continue to thumb their noses at others. Which of these happens is a choice we make everyday.
2. Today with better understanding of the properties of materials, as well as better engineering and design capabilities to make machines, stiffness and stability can be achieved with a lesser mass than they were many years ago. So there is merit in the point that mass/weight is not important. However, this discussion started from the fact that weight is the first feature advertised prominently.
3. A value proposition is a desirable trade-off between price and quality that suits one’s preferences. But this does not validate questionable marketing practices. If some body has a good or good-enough product at a price the market will bear, it is difficult to understand the necessity of resorting to such marketing tactics. Of course there are human errors, oversights, and time pressures in all situations. For instance, printing deadlines are familiar to many people. But if there is time to update the price increase, it is difficult to understand failure to update the advertising.
4. It is obligatory for a seller to supply as advertised. Mistakes do happen. It is one thing to acknowledge that and to take remedial actions, and another thing to be in denial.
5. It is hard to imagine that the supplier gets to decide which of the advertised features (such as weight, width, horsepower of motor, RPM etc.) is important and must be so in the supplied goods.
6. When warranty and service are a contractual obligation, they should not need schmoozing on the part of the customer. However there is no question that that would be helpful when the situation is above and beyond the scope or time frame of that warranty.
On a different note:I am pleased to report that yesterday I installed the final parts that had arrived and finished assembly. Fired up the machine. It ran. There happened to be a 4’-8” board handy that was twisted, warped and cupped. Ran it through the jointer many times, and produced a flat board, even if considerably thinner.
It is good having a 12” jointer!
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