Wow! Isn’t this supposed to be about helping one another with woodworking?
Being new to woodworking, I really enjoy Derek’s reviews and pictures of techniques, etc. Why does his opinion of a product become so offensive? Maybe being new, I don’t realize Derek trying to elevate himself above anyone else.
As I said, some of his posts, especially those with stages of pictures have been most helpful. I hope he continues to post them.
Replies
"Why does his opinion of a product become so offensive?"
LOL! Probably 'cause his opinion differs from that of the offended poster! Welcome to W-Wing.
Years ago, I worked in a museum cabinet shop where we would demonstrate to the public. It always amazed me how often some bozo would come in, watch what we were doing, and lambast us for "doing it wrong". Nevermind that the methods demonstrated had been meticously researched by a team of historians -- since it wasn't the way they did it, it was plainly "wrong". For some reason, w-wing seems to attract more than its share of "my way or the highway" kind of guy.
The best lesson I took from that position is that there are usually many "right" ways to do any w-wing task. Same with tools -- almost any tool can be the best for someone and for some purpose. Anyone with the opinion that only their way (or their opinion) is "right" is simply demonstrating they probably best ignored.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Ah, Derek is a big boy. Though I am uncertain to what degree the lambasts affect Derek personally, he chooses to soldier on. Good on him.
Me? It wears on me. Derek will keep on posting.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I was surprised by the tone that thread about the dovetail saw took; surprised and disappointed.
It should always be OK to disagree with someone, but some of the comments toward the end took on a personal slant that was unnecessary and rude.
I thought Derek (no relation) took a lot of flak for his review, which I found informative, helpful, and unbiased. It was simply his take on a new saw, which he found performed well. I don't think he intended it to be anything other than what it was - his opinion on a new tool most of us will never get to handle or purchase.
In all the volunteer work I do I sometimes run across people who are quick to criticize the efforts of others. Whether it's ignorance or arrogance, I find it unseemly to run down another person's work, especially so when that person is putting his neck out there, doing it for free, and only trying to be helpful.
What I've found over the years is that once your neck is stuck out there, people are only too happy to take potshots at your head. It makes many unwilling to commit to anything anymore. There is often too much hassle and grief lying in wait for those willing to extend themselves.
Putting a series of comparison evaluations together, taking photos and writing a review like Derek did on that saw takes a heck of a lot of work. I, for one, was very appreciative of the time he expended trying to give others his insight into what he found. It is pieces like he produces that contribute depth and richness to the vast storehouse of tool knowledge available to us in this day and age. For that I am grateful.
It would be a shame, and a great loss, if the few (and they are very few, though vocal and vociferous enough to convince the casual reader otherwise) who took Derek to task about his review discourage him from continuing his interesting perspectives.
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
>supposed to be about helping one another with woodworking
I agree. Some sort'a think, forgive me Derek (not one my self ) that Derek gets some somethin from LN for promoting their stuff unless I got that all hasp backwards; I hardly pay attention to that stuff.
Not the case with this saw. What ever. I want to read as many perspectives as possible on tests and accounts of experiences people have had using products. Even if the accounts do not meet strict scientific rigor. With perfect logic applied in every conceivable point on the compass and passed inspection by a comity of perfect people.
People give of their time freely here and as some have said that is aproximately how much we have paid to read it. So there may be worthless opinions posted. I want to read them too. I wish more people took the time to write longer entries. There are allot-allot of bright people here who hold back or do not have the time to write all they would like cause they like to get into the shop and actually do woodworking. In my case I have given all that up and just type. Much easier and I never get all that purple heart in my fingers any more.
: )
Seriously though I will make my own decisions thank you very much. I do not want anyone censored. Even the big,fat, harry, macho boy, trouble maker(s). Hey when they are here typing and being all grumpy and weird it means they can't be out tearing the wings off eagles and stuff. Right ? That's a good thing.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/23/2009 12:32 am by roc
Edited 5/23/2009 12:35 am by roc
roc,
BRAVO!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
BRAVO! at what?
Will,
Go back and read, really, really read roc's post.
Ummmm, mebbe I read it too much........
I think there's a lot going on in that post.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob.. I an old and fall asleep reading things.
I still can read.. I take words as posted BUT NOT in the words typed..
My brain its best to sort out the hate!
Bob I think most of the time.. I think.. And any words are food for thought!
>a lot going on in that postUH OH !A sure sign I am not spending enough time in the shop. If I do then the rest of the time everything is oooooohhhhhh kaaaaaaaaa.Maybe I should " get on the clock " if not on the couch at Dr. Cohen's and get to the root of all this "a lot". I am frightened at what I /we would find !Noooo best to shut up and go to the shop at least until I get up the courage to face my true self.: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
roc,
I dunno, maybe I read too much into it.
I just thought you hit the nail on the head or at least you said what was on my mind a lot better than I could have said it. Don't you go seein derek and don't you change neither.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
In that case, glass in hand (martini twist of lemon ) ;Here's to the great craft of woodworking and all those who I have had the privilege to learn from !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
(martini twist of lemon ) Just Rum and Coke fer me!
Do we all have to hold hands and sing kumbaya? No free speech or open expression of opinions or dissent?
If you want a woodworking forum with the policy "if you can't something nice...", there are plenty around, but I appreciate the fact that Knots is not so heavily moderated that you need a lawyer to proof read every sentence to insure it is politically correct.
There is no need for rudeness or incivility, but the only way to get at the truth is to let people speak their minds.
If I have missed the point of your post, please point fingers and name names, so we can get to the bottom of this injustice you speak of.
Edited 5/22/2009 10:19 pm ET by jhard
"...please point fingers and name names, so we can get to the bottom of this injustice you speak of." What's most helpful, IMHO, is to give us the thread number (or post number(s)) of the thread/posts that are of concern. In so doing, he (the OP) would enable everyone who's interested to draw their own conclusions.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Mr. Jump, I wouldn't anticipate any shrinking behind the curtains by Derek, he's a veteran of the ups and downs of forum participation. And don't let one (or two or three) vocal and intense critics convince you that the rest of us hold similar opinions. Many, or perhaps most, of us just sit back and let the central parties take care of their business, especially when they are veterans.
PS: To be clear I enjoy Derek's articles and respect his views and encourage him to please continue. I encouraged the lambaster(s) to post something as good or better and you see what we got. Shhhi i i i i i aaavings ; and plastic ones at that.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
"Why does his opinion of a product become so offensive?"
His opinion is not offensive to anybody except the very same few individuals who will appear and say the same old things . Quite easy to predict who the "offended" will be , and what they will say.Strangely, none of these individuals actually contributes anything of interest to woodworkers of any type, although on occasion one or two of them may regurgitate something that has been read or seen on a computer, in an attempt to appear knowledgeable or whatever.
Strangely, none of these individuals actually contributes anything of interest to woodworkers of any type, although on occasion one or two of them may regurgitate something that has been read or seen on a computer, in an attempt to appear knowledgeable or whatever.
Hey! You talking to me?! LOL
In all seriousness, I've learned scads from Derek, Philip, Ring and others here. Thanks to all for the priviledge of being your unwitting pupil.
Edited 5/23/2009 2:10 pm ET by pzaxtl
Edited 5/23/2009 2:10 pm ET by pzaxtl
It is the trouble with all un-moderated forums. Lots of jerks and creeps like to hide behind their computers and be unpleasant. It hurts the forums. Some people are driven off, some just lurk, others reduce their participation.Nothing wrong with a good argument. Everyone knows the difference, even if people get heated.J
Jumpin,
Well, there seem to be 3 or 5 posters who dislike Derek rather than what he says. Like Roc, I like to see all opinions aired on WW matters, including heavy-dooty disagreements. I disagree with Mr Cohen myself on several matters. However, these anti-Derek men wish to attack Derek's character and person rather than what he says.
If one considers some of the other attitudes expressed by these creatures (which are few, shallow but adamantine) one begins to form an unpleasant suspicion concerning their ulterior motive for Derek-bashing, which seems to have nothing to do with woodworking.
MikeWenz,
You too get attacked at the charcter/personal level by some strange creatures, again for reasons that seem to have nothing to do with the apparent subject-matter of the thread. One suspects an off-line history that may have engendered ire in these bitter-men, whose every post is full of the self-righteous spurts and leakages that MikeHen mentions.
It's a shame that this wears on you and perhaps prevents you from posting more. Why let a bully win, especially with a friend or two nearby who will be quite happy to maul the bully-ego with a sharp word or two? Or even three! I feel I must call-in to Oregon, to provide a lesson or two in "How to Issue Savage Cyber-Bites to the Soft Parts of Troll-Yobs and Sneer-Goblins". But I suspect you are too good a man for such dirty work. :-|
JHard,
"There is no need for rudeness or incivility, but the only way to get at the truth is to let people speak their minds".
So you agree with Jumpin then, who objects to the former not the latter (rude, not speaking a mind)? Also, what is this "truth" stuff you mention? I have heard of it but thought it turned out to be the feverish imaginings of abused folk caught in the desert with insufficient water. Anyroadup, whatever "truth" is, it seems unlikely that it will emerge from the poisonous minds of trolls, who tend to specialise in "untruth" (a much clearer concept, despite the obscurity of its opposite).
**********
Perhaps a table ought to be made:
column 1 - Useful WW information from Malacreep, Bustkramp and other trolls;
column 2 - Useful WW information from D. Cohen.
The content of column 1 would be about 1/100000th the content of column 2.
Lataxe, a grateful Derek-user.
hee hee...what I wrote sounded like I need an intervention. Not really (I think). Been terribly involved in familial matters for 4 or so months, more away than at home. When here at the shop, it's been mostly nose to the grindstone.
In seriousness, there are internet voices that have been silenced in the past few years. Silenced by some of the same people who seem to have only been left with Derek in their sights.
I sorely miss these missing voices in the public arena. One trouble with the internet is that sometimes it is very easy to forget that those "missing internet voices" are real people. One, a lovely lady in Cornwall who was effective in communicating her passion. It is her voice I miss the most. The other, a bright mind and compassionate woodworker, driven off by one of Derek's current and most vociferous detractors.
All that to say I do not take the verbal assaults as mere detracting chatter. I view it in a more serious vein when directed against others more so than myself. Tis my bent.
Being a typical conflicted human, I also like the banter which follows some posts. From the panegyric oohs and aahs (that make some puke), to the witty diatribes, to the short and sharpened-stick often wielded by Charles. When some of the sharper criticisms cross the line into vitriolic, well, it pisses me off. My reaction then is to sometimes withdraw.
Take care, Mike
In seriousness, there are internet voices that have been silenced in the past few years. Silenced by some of the same people who seem to have only been left with Derek in their sights.
I sorely miss these missing voices in the public arena.
Hi Mike
I miss them as well and think of them all the time when the Trolls disrail yet another thread. There have been occasions when I have come close to giving the writing away... for it is meant to be fun. When the fun stops, why continue?
Well I just get bloody-minded. To let these oafs win would be the greatest travesty of all. It would empower them no end. And then what other voices would be lost? - not only those who give up in disgust, but those too intimidated to start.
Regards from Perth
Derek
My ears are burning and I feel I must say something, if only a Thank You to those who have said nice things.
jumpminow, there are not many Trolls on the woodworking forums, but there are some and they do appear to slither from under their favourite rock when they sense an opportunity to be themselves. They rarely venture into the sunlight to offer positive advice or - Heaven forbid - demonstrate their (self-proclaimed) God-like prowess with a picture of something that they have actually built. They do proclaim that their ideals are The Only Ones To Have, and that all who do not follow their way are Blasphemers.
They appear to take more shots at me than others. Why? I suppose the simple answer is because I stick my head up more than others. The Trolls justify their attacks on the belief that I am dishonest in my reviews and should be shut down. It does not seem to appear to matter to them that it is fictitious claim – it just gets varied according to the situation that is presented.
The trouble is that “mud sticks”, for example, even roc ventured that I do promotions for LN. No, I don’t do promotions for LN … or anyone. I do a small (very small) number of tool assessments at the pre-production level for LV. For me it is just fun, and I am awed that LV take my opinion seriously. Some of my feedback has led to changes at production. None of this has anything to do with reviews.
I only write reviews on tools that I consider interesting, or that I believe others will find interesting. I am immensely fortunate that my feedback to LV sometimes leads to their sending me a production version at a later time. I have never hidden this fact. I am also fortunate to be have been able to afford several interesting purchases.
The thing is that woodworking is meant to be fun. It is a creative outlet. It is like breathing. What do you do when someone says “you’re only allowed to breath my way”. Such crap. I am an amateur … which means I do not ply woodworking as a trade. This is very fortunate because it means that I can make woodworking mean anything. I do it for myself, as I suspect most other amateurs here do it for themselves. My website documents part of my involvement .. my fun .. with woodworking. You will find shopmade tools, pictorial how-tos … none of which are intended to proclaim that I am an Expert. I am not an expert. I am an enthusiastic amateur. I have been woodworking more seriously over the last 20 years, with the last 10 years focussed especially on handtools.
So .. what did I do today woodworking-wise? Well, I was expecting to fly off to visit my folks, to celebrate my dad’s birthday. He is turning 95. They live in Cape Town. I’ll be away 10 days. I discovered that the flight would now only leave late tonight. This gave me several hours in which I could make a gift for my sister, who re-organised my travel arrangements. So I made her a little box out of Tasmanian Blackwood and Jarrah (you see, woodworking is not about the size of the project … and good feelings come from just about anything one does ..)
View Image
View Image
And this one is for Madeson ..
View Image
Thanks again to all
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/23/2009 8:18 am ET by derekcohen
Come on Derek,
Fess up: you put up with the forums just to get the background character info you need for the pyschological study you're preparing on personality interactions on the internet!
Congradulate your Dad on his birthday for me! Mine passed away 5 years ago this August at age 82. Still find myself having conversations with him (now how is that fodder for a book?).
T.Z.
tony,"still find myself having conversations with him."me too. have no intention of stopping. i get sound advice. fantasizing about my father brings up all sorts of answers.
it did, however, take a while before i no longer had the urge to call him or want to show him something, that took about two years to cease.
eef
I've read most all the anti-derek posts and for the life of me can't understand why. Is his integrity being questioned? If so that's just plain silly. So in other words his explanation(s) aren't to be believed?
To me it's kinda like me posting and the reader, seeing that gavel thang 'side me name, thinks ahhhhhhh he's just asserting hisself.
So, I tell ye what: you wanna assault my integrity - give me your best shot.
Also, in my opinion, if you have a bone to pick with someone, approach it like a man and contact the individual directly instead of pasting your drivil all over the place like a child who doesn't know any better.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Concord Green.
Power planers at dawn or will crossing stiles suffice?
Have to wait till fall. The we can hoist a few and go over ta Kittery and get some of that white oak.
The problem can be summed up as follows:
Derek receives the vast majority of the tools he reviews for free. The ones he doesn't receive for free he usually has more quibbles with than the ones he did get for free. The tools are reviewed in the context of working test materials, not in the fullness of time, in a busy professional shop or avid amateur's shop. Derek has been repeatedly asked to clarify his relationship with the tool manufacturers (by Richard Jones and others) yet to my knowledge has not done so with plain-speak. Derek, like a lot of minimally engaged hobbyists, builds a few relatively simple projects a year. To many, this doesn't seem like the breadth and depth of experience one would need to review tools. When certain brands of tools are being reviewed one really doesn't even need to read the entire review to know that a recommendation to purchase will be the conclusion reached - which is the primary issue a lot of of have with what purports to be an unbiased review.
Another participant here has suggested that where certain manufacturers are concerned this whole thing has deteriorated (to give the benefit of the doubt) to a pure buzz-marketing scheme. Maybe not intentionally, but effectively.
Other than this, Derek seems like a really nice guy.
To the extent that Derek makes people feel good about purchases already made, or decisions pretty much reached, then yes of course it all seems good.
So strike up the band.
And as far as Sam Maloof concerned, while nobody is every really shocked when a 93 y/o male expires, I wouldn't have used the term 'expected' unless he was suffering, outright, with a 'disease' other than simple old age. His death, for example, would have been expected had he been suffering from a terminal illness (other than simply being alive which is terminal for all of us).
Edited 5/25/2009 10:56 am ET by UrbaneLegend
Charles- You and Mel have droned on at length about Derek's reviews, happily implying that they are somehow dishonest, but neither of you has touched on the actual reviews themselves.For instance, you say, "Derek receives the vast majority of the tools he reviews for free. The ones he doesn't receive for free he usually has more quibbles with than the ones he did get for free."
If you know the numbers of gift tools, then let us know how that number compares to the number of non-gift tools he reviews. Your statement, as it stands, is just an assertion; you give no reason for us to know whether it is truth or falsehood.Similarly, your assertion that he finds more quibbles with (presumably) purchased tools than free ones cries out for documentation. You say you've read Derek's reviews. It should be a simple matter to justify your assertions with real evidence.You attempt to denigrate Derek with sneering characterizations such as "minimally engaged hobbyist" and one who "builds a few relatively simple projects a year." Suppose those descriptions were accurate (and I don't believe they are): What on earth do they have to do with the usefulness or accuracy of his tool reviews? I note again that the reviews themselves are the only solid basis for assessing their value. Maybe you haven't read the reviews, after all, since you so assiduously avoid addressing them.You and Mel seem to start with the assumption that one who receives free tools for evaluation cannot, by that very fact, produce an honest and useful review. Maybe that reflects something about your projection of yourself into a similar situation, but arguing solely from assumption is, as you probably recognize, intellectually lazy. Your assumption IS your conclusion. Why not put out a little effort and support the assumption with evidence. And by evidence, I mean facts from the reviews themselves, not just making more assumptions in support of your original assumption.While we're on the subject of ethics, what is your view of a poster who uses many different names in his contributions without revealing that he has previously used a different name ?
I'm a fraud and a scoundrel Donald.
Now that we've cleared that up, it's time for Derek to clarify his relationship with Lee Valley. As far as Derek's output goes - he has chosen to create a website and post a link to it frequently. I don't see much. Am I missing something?
Edited 5/25/2009 1:34 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
Now that we've cleared that up, it's time for Derek to clarify his relationship with Lee Valley.
From post 12 in this thread. As he's posted many times before.
I only write reviews on tools that I consider interesting, or that I believe others will find interesting. I am immensely fortunate that my feedback to LV sometimes leads to their sending me a production version at a later time. I have never hidden this fact. I am also fortunate to be have been able to afford several interesting purchases.
UrbaneLegend
I gather that is an interesting play on your real name (as you stated once before) ... So are you willing to share with us what is your real name? After all, you are asking me to share a lot of personal information. I'd say that would be fair.
Now Donald makes a good point about research - as opposed to your assumptions. Please provide me/us with something tangible about bias in my articles.
Here's some "research" examples, in case you are not sure what to do, evidence that is verifiable (that means that others can replicate what you conclude) ..
I did a search on "UrbaneLegend" on Knots and came up with 70 posts made over a period of roughly 2 1/2 years.
Of the 70 posts, 19 (13%) had to do with woodworking (that did not include a couple that discussed where to find lumber), 6 of the 19 offered advice on woodworking (thats 2% of the total), and the remaining 51 posts (that's 73% of the total posts you have ever made on Knots) were just a whinge.
Regards from Perth
Derek (just trying to keep the facts straight)
What percentage of the time, would you say, that your feedback to LV results in you receiving a production plane 'at a later date.' Since you brought up percentages and such...
My astonishment at the arrangement aside, isn't it true that you give feedback during the design stage and then, in essence, provide what is offered to the internet community as an independent review at a later date? So, in essence, reviewing your own input?
Would you mind clarifying, once and for all, your arrangement with the Lee Valley Company - something beyond a few glib sentences. Please tell us exactly how it works, how many tools you've received for free, what's in the pipeline, the whole schmear.
Clear it up.
Edited 5/25/2009 5:16 pm ET by Oilstone
Charlie, ye orc,
"...the whole schmear. Clear it up".
Well, you are doing the smearing, old chap; and what a broad smear-brush you have. It paints the whole world dirty. But you probably have a big dirt-pot to dip it in, eh?
Let us try another metaphor.....
Your various attack-dawgs have deposited their mess all over Knots. When a dirty doggie do doo-doo, we civilised folk expect the lad on the other end of the leash to do the cleaning up, before decent folk step in it. So.....
Pull out your little shuvel and git to scoopin! No excuses now, your dawgs are stinkin' the place up.
Lataxe, a dawg-warden.
PS Any woodworking thoughts, advice, interesting tidbits? Any pictures of your work? No, I suppose not, as ever. I am begining to think you are a naughty teenager with a hormone issue; and no woodworking interest at all.
isn't it true that you give feedback during the design stage and then, in essence, provide what is offered to the internet community as an independent review at a later date? So, in essence, reviewing your own input?
Charlie
The sum is greater than the parts.
A few of my recommendations have been taken up by LV. These are, of course, the greatest ideas imaginable! The recommendations that are not taken up may be so for various reasons (including that they were not practical or not considered to be necessary).
In the grand scheme this is the design and work of LV, and their final product follows after feedback from a number of sources and from several perspectives. It it very far from being a review of "my input". I describe and comment on all features.
There now I have answered one of your questions, although I shouldn't because you are a naughty boy. There will be other so-called questions, no doubt many others. They are really disguised as questions and in reality are statements ... slings and arrows. I'll try and ignore you some more ..
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/25/2009 6:05 pm ET by derekcohen
What percentage of the time do you receive a tool at no cost, without obligation to return it to the manufacturer, for your reviews? No slings or arrows. Simple question. What is the value of Lee Valley tools purchased out-of-pocket compared to the value of the tools you've received at no cost?
Edited 5/25/2009 8:24 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
Have you seen the LN YouTube videos where Deneb takes the tools through their paces? Like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxKo1vjOwA
Do you think they are inappropriate? Useless?
Suppose Derek were Rob Lee's Deneb. Would it matter?
Why does this bother you so? Why do you care one way or another?
Hold on just a minute there.
Derek is in no way obliged to reveal a dang thang to anoyone. It's none of your business.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
P.S. I edited this to insert an s in jut - guess ye got me wound a bit.P.S.S. Oh yeah and the P.S. was for full disclosure on this post. I need to do that, right?
Edited 5/25/2009 7:50 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 5/25/2009 7:51 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Tisk, tisk Bob.
Edited 5/25/2009 8:25 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
The hateful and degrading comments I have received here has not surprised me in the least for I have seen this happen so many time here. But I was amazed how by asking the question concerning Mr. Cohans remarks could generate the responses that it has.
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>The passing of Sam Maloof was expected since he was 93
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What was he thinking? <
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I find his comment very disrespectful!
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So I voiced my opinion and in return was lambasted by those who have a history of doing so. Degrading comments, belittling remarks and name calling were just a few of their tricks to twist and confuse, but I stood up to their attacks and kept them from deviating from the issue, thus putting a halt to the feeding frenzy that this forum is so well know for.
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It's a wet day in Alabama and it is preventing me from other tasks. So, I happened by this thread, which reminds me of a playground fight. After 30 responses you cannot remember what it was all about.I think, if we are honest, there is a little corner of us all that enjoys a good playground fight.
H,
Yis, I remember the playground and how one must stand up to bully boys therin; or instead become a lickspittle-kowtow cipher and bullyboy playthang. The enjoyment of such primitive and immature behaviour usually wanes after age 15 and 3/4.
Within this branch of cyberspace the bullyboys often adopt multi-personalities. We have Charles/Boss/Urbane/Taunting-Macoot/Oilstone et al - one real negative fellah who is so beyond mere cynisysm that his bitter&twist would sour a fresh pint of milk from 300 yards. He has had a bad life and would like to take it out on an innocent. In Knots, he spies Derek, who is in some ways an innocent-abroad (that is, a ferner, who is Not Like Bossy, as he is rather positive in attitude).
Then there is the I-me-my solipsism of fellows who take agin' another for dark-reasons and offer "justifications" along the lines of "He is bad coz I doanlikeim and wothesez". The history of the "Idoanlikeim" attitude is often full of xenophobia or jingoism, perhaps larnt from a bad-dad-hero figure of somewhat parochial views.
The solipsist, of his nature, cannot grasp that there are people not like him who are nevertheless legitimate. The solipsist cannot separate his mere (bad) taste in personalities from various moral imperatives, such as "He gotta share my (suspect) values to be included in the category 'human being' ". Next comes a solipsist virtual daisy bomb to do away with the distasteful ones.
****
Some forums expunge the trolls but this leads to a somewhat bland and empty society. In Knots we must deal with the reality of the cyberbullies ourselves. Many avoid the fight by going elsewhere or ceasing to participate. This is not the way to build an Open Society. It is necessary, lacking a nanny-moderator, to skewer the bullies (typographically of course).
Lataxe-alot.
As others have mentioned, I think this is just a matter of different styles of speech in different parts of the world, even when it's all supposedly in the same language. When I read, "The passing of Sam Maloof was expected since he was 93..." I interpreted it as saying, "The passing of Sam Maloof does not come as a surprise, since he was 93..."-Steve
Dusty,
I would like to be yor fren but you keep pickin' on my other fren coz he is not like you. How do you reconcile your whine, "The hateful and degrading comments I have received here...." with doing exactly that thang to an innocent Derek? You impose attitudes on the lad that he jes don't have.
I am hoping you have no ulterior motive for lambasting a chap who is manifestly innocent of the vicious charges you level agin' him (age-a-phobia). I know he is from Oz but, having been there, I can assure you that they do not eat babies for breakfast or even raise an eyebrow at the strangeness of fellows from Tennessee. In fact, they are good blokes.
How about you look at my hayrake thread and it's pickshers, which gives you an opportunity to level a rough criticism or four concerning that item? I welcome criticism of the woodwork, harsh or otherwise, as it all helps improve my design-sense, not to mention the tekneeks of making things. And you can work out your angst to good purpose.
Lataxe, wondering why folk imagine bogeymen under their beds.
A hand of truce, a man of peace I humbly accept and extend mine in return.
But please understand that I do not take kindly to censorship by those that may not agree with me. In truth I spoke my feelings and in truth took blows to my senses. Being forced to bear false accusations against me I stood to confront my accusers and they gave me use for my stance. But I am a forgiving man not wanting to cause ill effect but in fact stood to protect my character to make known to those to go no farther. Derek’s words that I found so disrespectful had bruised a memory form the past, after I stated it so I was willing to let it go but was forced to stay and defend. My words were small compared to the ones I received with fiery tip and heavy loads all in the name of some need to remove guilt from the accuser or was it due to a unexpected defense from the accused. But I’m willing to let go these burdens and give the wounds time to heal now knowing that some one is willing to make truce. I respect you for your actions and will lay down my defense. But we’ll see from the actions of the others if they follow suit for if they do I will call them friends but if not then I must keep my guard.
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As for the invitation to critique your work I will refrain, my respect for another keeps me so. Unless I am to purchase the product of your skills I feel that anything added or taken away will only hinder the end result.
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Derek’s words that I found so disrespectful had bruised a memory form the past, after I stated it so I was willing to let it go but was forced to stay and defend.
Hi Dusty
I am sorry to hear that my words had this effect on you. I would never wish to cause you pain. My intent was to praise Sam Maloof. He was (and will continue to be) one of my inspirations. I have no desire to continue a debate over who is wrong and who is right. Let us let it go.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I did not intend the path this thread took and regret letting it go for so long but had little control over it.
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A truce it is!
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Dusty,
Those hard past-times! All of us who get older have to gather these cruel events from life. Nothing compensates for loved ones gone forever - except maybe some still extant loved ones, including a new stray pussycat, a new grandchild or maybe even a new friend.
Those bitter glasses we needs must drink down from time to time have to be forgot; and maybe washed away with sweeter stuff. The world will supply plenty of love if you let it.
Lataxe, who will be happy enough to get to 93 (or even tomorrow).
oh c'mon mr. mctevish, that ain't quite the way ya put it; 'twas a bit more incoherent if i recall, something about a preference for book learning too.
Simple fact is that NO ONE GETS OUT ALIVE. Kinda simple in the big picture.
The good doc coulda said "not altogether unexpected given that he was 93 . . " = same essential thought, a few less words than me, but still no disrespect.
Or, he coulda said "who woulda thunk it, the kid was only 93 . ." BUT that woulda caused a bit of head scratchin' by us, wonderin' if he was being a smart aleck or perhaps callous.
Or he coulda said " about darn time, as the old coot was 93" . . . . and that we would all probably agree would have been insensitive (and rather out of character for the good doc).
So, all in all, and especially given the fact that he (dc), vis-a-vis us, is standing upside down, it was expected.
By the way, what the heck did you mean by your "book learning" comment????????????? sorta seems like it came out of left-field, but it would not be the first time i missed the segue . . . .
Edited 5/25/2009 5:10 pm by stpatrick
Have you thought of perusing a career at the U.N?
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derek,
If I can ask ye just one teeny weeny favor? Don't change.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Derek, just so you know, I for one respect your views and learn from your postings. Your projects are beautiful and are many times a thoughtful gift to a friend or relative. I believe I see a lot of "Soul" in the projects you make for gifts.
Your tool reviews are helpful to me, I will admit to having a lot to learn, and I learn about tools from your postings. I have bought some of the tools you have reviewed and have found no fault with your assessment of a tool. I learned a long time ago that a man cannot live long enough to learn everything from his mistakes; he must learn from others and adapt others views to find the best way for him to do a task.
Keep your reviews and projects coming, I for one look forward to them.
Now if I could just find a way to obtain some of your favorite jarrah wood!!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Why does his opinion of a product become so offensive?
To me, it is hard to tell fact from fiction when folks have 'strong' opinions about almost anything. Maybe they DO have a better Idea? Who knows?
Some are just Jerks. 'Very, very few in here I am glad to say'.
Unless you are a professional writer, it is hard 'at least for me', to express things in just words. Face to Face talk is WAY easier! At least you get this 'feeling' from the look on the other persons face that you said something that you may have to defend or duck the next flying clenched fist!
And then there are folks like me that just say stupid things sometimes with no harm intended!
AND then there is that old School Bully that still likes to 'impress' us!
Cohen’s statement in the Sam Maloof passing post;
>The passing of Sam Maloof was expected since he was 93<
What was he thinking?
I’d rather get my knowledge from books.
I think this may be a case of two cultures separated by the same language. I've certainly never been to a funeral of a very elderly person where some in attendance did not take small comfort in that the person they were mourning had enjoyed a long and good life. So yes, folks expect that those in their 90's may be gone at any time.
What was he thinking? A better question is what are you thinking when you write such a post?Without putting words in Derek's stead, I take his statement to simply suggest old people do not live forever and many have expected such news about Sam Maloof for years. I met him and he was old and getting frail. It was not anticipated but it was expected.What does getting your information from books have to do with either Derek's post on Sam Maloof's passing or on Sam Maloof's actual passing? It doesn't seem to make sense. Seems more like a non sequitor.It's good that you get your knowledge from books but the drawback is lack of alternate information from others and also the inability to troll which seems like what your doing by repetitively going after Derek by cross posting for what appears to be little reason. If there is a legitimate reason please inform us all as I have enjoyed some of your posts in the past but this redundant attack is getting old and weary.I look at this forum as a place to exchange information but not attack individuals who simply have a difference of opinion. If you want to continue this apparent grievance of whatever you perceive Derek's advise caused personal harm to you, perhaps the subject would be better served in the Cafe Folder. If you don't like his reviews, perhaps you could buy the saw and do your own review. That way we can see an alternate viewpoint without the venom. Since he is one of the few that actually do a review of products that aren't under the restrictive auspices of a magazine, and I don't see anyone else stepping up to the bat, perhaps you could be the counterbalance.Regards
Boiler
My post was addressed to the originator of this post not you and if you disagree with what I have to say then at least live by your own words and respect my opinions. I surely try to do so with yours.
I do respect opinions on things, not attacks on people, but then your post was a question (.....thinking?), not an opinion - No?
My error.You also made a statement (......books). Again, no opinion there.
Again, my error.
Greatest and endless apologies and supplications.........So I guess there is nothing here to respect after all.
If you wish your post and views to remain private, perhaps a private email to the OP would serve you better.On knots forums, if you post to one, you post to all. The responses are what they are. For most here on Knots, light humor without attitude (maybe just a touch)is the more pleasant path.If you don't care for the direction a thread is going you can always ignore it. Just hit the ignore button.
Like this.PlonkBoiler
It appears that you still have not understood and I have a sense that you are attempting to invoke another feeding frenzy that the Knots forum is so famous for. So have your way I will not participate, you have the bully pulpit.
Cohen’s statement in the Sam Maloof passing post;
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>The passing of Sam Maloof was expected since he was 93<
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What was he thinking?
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I’d rather get my knowledge from books.
dustymctevish
This is a fine example of Trollish behaviour. Either it is deliberate or it is accidental. I'd like to believe the latter.
Trollish behaviour is when you take something out of context to demean the writer. The above quote is out of context. Here is what I wrote ...
Hi Keith
Thanks for the notice.
The passing of Sam Maloof was expected since he was 93. Nevertheless we all wished that he would go on forever. It was not just that his work was so amazing, or that it was original and set a standard - all of these things apply - but that he rose to become a Master from self-taught roots, and this was another inspiration for many of us who are also self-taught and aspire to be better woodworkers.
Sam told the story of how, when asked by a customer, how long it would take to get the piece he had ordered, that this was because Sam's waiting list was long and the customer was just impatient. Then when he was approaching his 90's Sam joked that they asked because they wanted the piece "before I died".
He really just seemed to go on and on, building his wonderful rocking chairs, giving workshops, and generally being a great inspiration to us all. I never met him but I feel I knew him - which is likely how many of us think.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Saying Hi from Cape Town. A bloody long way from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/24/2009 7:33 am ET by derekcohen
Edited 5/24/2009 8:10 am ET by derekcohen
This silly *** treacly thread must surely mark the exact moment Knots became just like the Badger Ponds and Sawmill Creeks of the woodworking forum world.
What a shame.
edited-FineWoodworking.com 5/26
This silly-a$$ed treacly thread must surely mark the exact moment Knots became just like the Badger Ponds and Sawmill Creeks of the woodworking forum world.
Hey Boss, howzit?
Not really true, the above. I've been thrown off SMC before for less offense than your statement. One can carry a sharper stick here--be more contentious, more direct etc.
Have a great weekend. Hugs and kisses.
Mike
Say what you will, take aim at me as you have done so many times toward others in the past.
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But your comment was disrespectful toward the surviving family and friends.
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McTrollish,
Awa an' boil yer heed, ye wee wassock!
Now that's disrespectful (in case the sentiment had escaped you). ;-/
Lataxe.
Name calling is a childish response, it has been deemed okay for one to make a statement without question but another needing to explain.
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The moral of the story it seems is if one steps on the kings’ robe ye will turn into a troll.
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Oh brother!
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Dusty,
Well, I wus just disrespectin' your troll personality section. When you've exorcised or otherwise locked the creature away at the back of your (hopefully not too boiled) heed, I will happily chat away with other and better parts of you, most respectfully, concerning various woodworking matters, even those we may disagree on heartily.
My own troll tends to come out to play too, from time to time. I ask the good fairy part of my psyche to remonstrate with it. Sometimes the troll dines on fairy.
Then I call in the clown.
Lataxe
Some read, respect and understanding willing to agree to disagree but others prefer to stand out with pitch fork and hoe in hand ready for revenge, themselves metamorphosing into their own little creature with bad natures.
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But Sir Lataxe I must say in all, your inner troll has a most elegance in word about him.
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LataxeThere you go again. Always understating things. You need to make your feelings clear :-)
We have trouble with the King's Anglish on this side of the pond.
One would think, if you got your ire up you would call for the triple tree at Tyburn!
Gives a whole new meaning to the "Duly mon"Boiler
I don't see any disrespect. If you know anything about humans we all die. Some times we dodge the bullet and are on the face of the planet a bit longer due to medical intervention.
I have made it past the deadly 42 of which all of my family has had there first heart attack. I recognized the signs and drove to the hospital and am here today.
If some one said he was expected to be dead at 42 thats cause history and genetics are not yours to change, just deal with. would my family be disrespected. NO, we go to enough funerals of young folks. any one there would be glad if they escaped the first brush with the grim reaper.
I worked as a nurse for years, you get a sense of what life and death are all about, and how we are only attached to the planet for a certian time. a near dead 90 year old that is still working is a good thing AKA wellness contiunium. a 1 day old crack baby is not a good thing. Get some perspective go volunteer in a hospital for a while.Derek I wished I had parents to go visit, they have all passed including two older brothers.
at 52 being the oldest in the family is not what I think is a good thing. So enjoy the time with them!!!! and for the record I like your reviews, I like you hand tools and if I could I would fly down and lurk in your shop I would. I found this gem somewhere on the net.
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.
Why not?
Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here.And that's how company policy begins...Me thinks that some one here is one of the monkeys
well as I typed more responed. Hi forest girl!!Remeber sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.But a cheap chisel (not LV or LN) can hurt you.
Post 23: "It appears that you still have not understood and I have a sense that you are attempting to invoke another feeding frenzy that the Knots forum is so famous for. So have your way I will not participate, you have the bully pulpit."Damn, I thought that was a promise. Oh well....Love that ignore button.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Damn that was fun ny
46828.16 in reply to 46828.15
I was fortunate enough to attend two week-end seminars with Mr. Maloof at Highland Hardware. I knew I would probably not learn anything new at the second seminar but... it was worth the money to sit in a rocking chair and talk about his experiences. Frankly... if given another opportunity before his passing which can be expected at 93.. I would have paid to do it again... Sarge
Here is some of "my" comment on the Sam Maloof thread...
"But your comment was disrespectful toward the surviving family and friends".
Now.. I usually don't get involved in these kind of back and forth BS threads but I am going to make and exception here. If you and Derek have bones to pick.. that is between you and Derek as I frankly don't have time to be concerned nor do I really care.
But... I do not and cannot agree that what was said was disrespectful to the family. I can't imagine the family was shocked at someone passing at age 93.. can you? Four years ago my mom passed at age 92 and spent the last year with Alzheimer disease. I was not in shock that she passed. I actually expected it and so would anyone else that lives in the world of reality so I cannot see the point of disrespectful under the circumstances.
In Vietnam I had several young men under under my charge die at age 18-19-20 in combat. If I made the statement that was to be expected.. that statement "would have been disrespectful to the family". But not someone age 93 as body parts wear out and it can be expected.
I'm not jumping on anyone's band-wagon as again.. I really don't care about a riff between you and Derek. That is none of my business and I intend to keep it that way. But.. your charge in this case is un-warranted IMO regardless of who said it.
Regards...
Sarge..
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Edited 5/24/2009 10:33 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
You may not agree with me but I still respect your opinion and will not attempt to belittle you for it.
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What an unusual concept for this forum!
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But if I am verbally attacked by those that can’t understand this concept then be sure I will with vigilance return in rebuttal.
Nothing personal Dusty.. As I stated, I simply don't agree that those comments were disrespectful to family. And again.. if you and Derek have a problem.. that is for you and Derek to work out as how you guys handle that is none of my business.
Regards...
Sarge..
Derek has the temerity to be something other than what his detractors claim he should be.
Self-righteousness seems to be an irresistable pleasure to some.
Well, jump, now ya know how it goes. There's a saying in business -- specifically customer service training -- that goes "Ten percent of the people cause 80% of the problems." In this case, 2% of the people (I'm guessing) kick up a nonsensical fuss that is irrelevant to 98% of the same and has nothing to do with how others think (or don't think) of the member in question.
Hope this hoo-ha doesn't have any lasting effect on your participation, or anyone else's. It's harmless, especially if we all just ignore it. Except Lataxe, who turns it into great fun!!
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