I just moved into a new shop (12×30). It is a bit small. I’ve figured out that dealing with sheet goods is frustrating at best. I have looked at circular saw/guide systems by Festool. Looks like a good system but pricey. I don’t really have room for a panel saw. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
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Replies
Penn State Industries makes a "Portable Panel Saw System" -- I haven't used it, but it looks like a good design. I have their overhead blade guard, and am very pleased with the design and manufacture. Nothing screams "cheap".
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I use the EZ Smartguide and it is excellent, super accurate and very easy to use. http://tinyurl.com/8qfea
Roger
I'd rather be making cabinets and friends....
I used to live in a shop that was about 12" x 20" I feel your pain! I would lay some scrap 2x4 or ply off cuts on a pair of horses to support the sheet as I rough cut it. As far as a straight edge goes, I always just use an off cut with a good edge and some good spring clamps to hold it. I would get the sheets down to managable size and then go to the table saw.
-Paul
Same here for large panels.. I use my saw with some portable extension tables I have if I an only doing one sheet..If a few I do just like you.. However, I lay down a hunk of 2 inch 4X8 rigid foam.. Fully supports the sheet.. Really nice for holding the cut-off.. Just.. that sheet of foam has more than a few slices in the surface and a pain to find a place for it.. BUT.. it's like having a few helpers around...
Edited 11/7/2005 7:50 am by WillGeorge
I have the Lee Valley Veritis power tool guide.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41707&cat=1,240,45313
I'm very happy with it. I would recommend making a sled with the traveller. In fact I'll be spending the day with it ripping sheet goods.
Hope this helps.
As well as I know the LV catalog, I've still missed this system. How does the "Traveler" work. Is it a simple straightedge that attaches to a base for the tool, or does it have some part that rides in the channel of the straightedge?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Both the Festool and the EZ Smart are very good guide systems, but there are simpler (or at least less expensive) ways to break down sheets of plywood.
I use plain old shooting boards -- one 8', the other about 50" -- which are made for the circular saw/blade I intend to use. This system will yield accurate cuts, but not the glass smooth surface you will get with either Festool or EZ. I simply overcut the pieces, and then run them through the TS for a final cut.
The shooting boards work better than a guide, since you don't have to futz around measuring the offset between the saw and your cut line.
For a platform, I use a pair of saw horses (about 20" high), with three 8' 2 X 4's half lapped to fit the cross piece on the horses. The horses can be stacked and the 2 X 4's set aside to get them out of the way when you are done.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I second Nikki's shooting board. If you joint the guide fence and use the same blade it is Very accurate. I added large 90 degree fences tothe bottom, this makes it easy to set up the cut.
MIke
Could you explain the "90 degree fences" you added to the bottom of your shooting board. I am completely mystified, but very curious. I use my shooting board exclusively for plywood., and it works very well for that purpose -- accurate, no splintering. I think either the Festool or the EZ gives a much smoother cut, and it is also possible to rip narrower boards. I can't really rip anything less than about 6-8".********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
It is stapled and glued under the base perpindicular to the fence. So make a normal shooting board and screw and glue a 2 foot long1x4 (it needs to be stiff or it will flex) under the shooting board about 12" from one end. Make certain this board is as close to 90 degrees as you can get it. Now when you go to use it all you have to do is set it on the panel line it up with you cut mark and it will square it self up against the board underneath. It is as accurate as all but the very best panel saws.
Mike
thanks for info, but I am having trouble seeing its purpose. If, for instance I am cutting a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood, and I want to rip the entire eight feet at say, 23" -- normally, I would measure the 23" on one end of the sheet, and then on the other; line up my shooting board on the two marks, clamp both ends and cut away. Is your system easier than that?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
When you add the piece I am refering to you do not need to make two marks to set it parallel. It will square itself up the same way a beismier fence does. In fact I usually dont even make a mark at all. I just measure from the cut line on the shooting board to the edge of the sheet and move it untill I get what I want. Anything that I cut with a circ saw will be re-cut on the table saw so the exact demension is not importaint, it is importaint that it is square. I don't rip using a shooting baord, but I don't know if I would trust the assembly to be accurate (square) over 8 feeet.
Mike
I too make rough cuts with the shooting board, and do all my final cuts on the TS. But I do try to keep every cut as square as I possibly can, and your system sounds quick and efficient, but I would be a little worried about keeping it all square. Now that I've had the chance to actually try the Festool, I gotta say I am impressed and tempted. The efficency is great -- you really don't have to use clamps on the guide. The smoothness of the cut is on a par with what comes out of my Powermatic 66, and the accuracy is such that you can in fact cut cabinet parts from a sheet of ply and they are ready to go. Altogether, it is a pretty awesome system; the product has a lot of traction (i.e. once you try it, you like it), and I suspect in a few years not many of us will be satisfied to use the old shooting board technique.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
On cross cuts it is as accurate as making tick marks and lineing up the edge of the jig. For rips... probably not. I need to get my hands on one of these festool systems to try it out. I never though that "effecient" would describe it. I'll check it put.
Mike
You'll gulp when you consider the price, but it does seem to be one of those tools, that once you make the initial plunge, you'll be glad you did. I assume you also know about the EZ Smart system, which I have not tried, but I understand it performs on the same level as Festool. Much cheaper, especially if you already own a right-blade CS.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I use the Festool AT55 saw and guide system. It is easy, v accurate and does not tear out on hardwood ply. It is more expensive than other approaches, but I figure that I saved enough on stock in the first 3-4 months to more than make up for the cost.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
ez- smart.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/
davidwood
I've been up and down the scale on panel saws, sliders, etc and I've come to the conclusion that the eureka ez smart system is awfully hard to beat. I'm using it to replace a horizontal panel saw in a cabinet shop.
When I first received the system, I used it to rip some oak ply - 7 1/4" 28 tooth blade and compared it to a cut made with a 60 tooth blade on a unisaw. Difference was very minor. I was really amazed when I cross cut some luan and it didn't fur up.
There are a lot of cheaper approaches, but I haven't found any that do a better job.
You should try the EZ with the repeater.
What I like the most about the Ez:
No dedicated saw. Anti-splintering protection on either side of the blade. Even off the guide rail. Self aligning connectors. The smart clamps for narrow wood.
I think the ez was designed to "go after" the tablesaw, jointer, radial arm saw and panel saw combined.
david.
I am using the 26" repeaters and life is good.
What is the "repeater"? I use the EZ guide, love it, but never heard of any repeater.RogerI'd rather be making cabinets and friends....
What is the "repeater"?
A gadget that slides under the ez rails and performs multiple tasks.
1. Build in stop. For routing multiple and identical pieces. (fluting)
2. Clamping fixture to secure the narrowest piece of trim. (1-16")
3. Fixture for mortise and tenons using the smart router kit. (same guide rails.)
4. Positioning system for repeat tapered cuts.
5. Positioning system with it's own measuring system for rip cuts up to 26".
6. Positioning system for making "paper thin" edges.
7. Mounting fixture for the sliding square. ( I made my own for now.Not available yet)
8 We cut plastic parts for machining with the repeaters. accuracy +- .002' to .004" on 4'- 00".
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/The-Ez-Smart-Repeater
david.
Edited 11/7/2005 7:35 am ET by davidwood
Edited 11/7/2005 7:45 am ET by davidwood
I assume that the EZ guide clamps can be set for any length of sheet, sa 71 inches? The pictures or the description on the tool site do not make that point
Thanks Ray
Ray,
The clamps will slide the entire length of the ez guide rail. They're spring-loaded and will stay where you put them. You can upgrade the clamps if you anticipate ripping very narrow pieces. Looking at the set-up on the screen doesn't do it justice for what you can do with it. In my experience you can clamp to a variety of sizes and shapes of boards. On the eurekazone website you can see a triagular board being clamped to the guide:http://www.eurekazone.com/products/smartclamp.html
jericho
Yes, the EZ Guide has clamps in slots underneath that slide in to whatever size sheet you are cutting - slide them in until they are over the sheet and clamp down - holds the guide securely to the sheet.The guides come in sections that are something like 55", so one can be used on a 48" wide sheet, join two together for a 96" sheet, etc. Because of the way that they join and the machining accuracy of the guides, my long cuts are very straight (unfortunately do not have an accurate straightedge that long so measure, but long pieces always mate to whatever I am connecting them to!)RogerI'd rather be making cabinets and friends....
bloomnfan
The latest McFeelys catalog (well-known screw & fastener company) has the Festools saws on closeout. Apparently they are being redesigned. THe 6 1/4 model is on sale for $325, I think, if that helps. May be free-shipping too. http://www.McFeelys.com
I highly recommend the Festool system, as others have. I use it not only in my shop but also out in the field when I am on a job site. It's quick, easy to set up and provides beautiful, accurate cuts.
One recommendation if you do get this system: take very good care of the 105" guide for panels. It's a very sturdy guide but it can get out of whack if you're using it every day like I do. It comes in a long box made out of hardboard and with some fiddling, you can turn it into a "home" for your guide while you're not using it. Unfortunately mine, after 3 years of heavy use is slightly off (has a slight bow in the middle of the cut). Will be getting another one when the budget allows.
Good luck,
Tim
For those looking to buy a system, I would recommend that they look very closely at both the Festool and Eureka Zone systems. When I did this a couple of months ago, I noticed that the Eureka zone systems had much stronger rails. Also they are not made in the extremely long lengths but have a self aligning connectors. It also appeared to me that the Festool System is much more Table Centered. If you choose the Festool System, you are stuck with the Festool Saw (Not recommended by the factory for use off the rail.) and Festool 6 1/4 or 7 1/2" blades. These are not available at Lowes, Home Depot, etc. With the Eureka Zone System, you can use any right blade circular saw. With the Eureka Zone you can cut on both sides of the rail. Festool is one side only. Also the Eureka Zone system includes a insert for splinter free cuts when it is not on the rail.
Recently, Eureka Zone came out with repeaters that allow you to make repeat rip cuts without measuring. Festool doesn't have anything like this.
My intention in writing this is to show differences in the two systems. I hope that it doesn't appear to be slanted either way.
Burts,
Thanks for the info on the Eureka zone system. Interesting, I will check it out, though I've made a significant investment into the Festool system (sander, router, etc.) and I'm pretty gun-ho about it. I see the advantages you mentioned and sounds good. Certainly a good option for someone to check out.
I will say this--Festools tools are engineered so well that these are lifetime tools. Granted, 20 years from now my circ. saw maybe choking, but I doubt it.
Thanks for the info!
Tim
I can testify to the fact that the Festool guide rails must be handled with care. I would not call them flimsy, but they are fragile -- and you need to be careful with them if you are hauling the system around to job sites. I used the Festool saw (the smaller of the two) recently on a job, and had trouble with the machine stalling. We were beveling MDO -- no vacuum, and a clear 15 Amp circuit.Have you -- or any of the other Festool users here -- had problems of that kind?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,
Yes, I've had problems stalling before because I too have the smaller saw. The larger saw definitely has more torque to it. I don't know how old your blade was but I know when I changed my blade that I certainly had less-frequent problems. It shouldn't have stalled on MDO unless your feed rate was aggressive. Frankly, I keep one eye on the green light to see whether I'm stalling or not and back off a bit if I detect any problems. That's solved it for me for now. I use mine in conjunction with the vacuum usually though I don't know if that makes much of a difference. Good luck.
Tim
Have you called Festool or your ISA about it? Based on what other's have said Festool is always happy to assist their customers in using their tools. I have the ATF55 and have never had any problem with sheet goods or even 8/4 hardwoods. In fact, because of the riving knife that follows the blade I haven't had any problems with the wood grabbing the blade like I'd seen with my PC.
You might also go the the Festool Yahoo group and ask for advice. There are plenty of people you have lots of experience with Festool and would be happy to help.Kevin
I think I said in my original post/complaint about the Festool saw stalling, that I called customer service, and the guy I spoke to was really terrific. In fact he was so talkative and eager to help, I had to cut him short -- since we were standing on a job site and very pressed for time. We were using the blade which came with the saw (40 some teeth), and he suggested we switch to a 28 tooth blade. We bought one the next day, and have had no subsequent problems, and I couldn't see any diminution in the quality of the cut. Apparently, stalling doesn't happen frequently but it does happen now and then. If switching blades does not solve the problem, the CS guy told me I might have to fiddle with the adjustment for "toeing" the blade in slightly (it comes that way from the factory).We used it again today, cutting a bevel on a piece that also had to be tapered. Even if my big Powermatic were sitting on the job site, I don't know how a TS could handle that kind of cut. But with the Festool, it was a piece of cake.So, aside from producing a very smooth cut, it does things you really can't do with a TS -- at least not very easily.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I use the Festool AT55. Very smooth cuts. It's not necessary to use the Festool guide rail. Any straightedge will do fine, and will probably be less expensive. I like the two-piece straightedge that connects in the middle. One nice feature of the Festool saw is that the offset from the straightedge is the same for bevel cuts as it is for 90 degree cuts. So you can make a registration block of the appropriate width, and use it to guage the staightedge to the cut line.
I found this link in an old post, so I can't take credit for finding it myself. I bought the article and it sounds like a good system for the small shop. I plan on building the table and guides when I get to that point in my next project (kitchen cabinets). Not sure if this link will work properly. If not, search the FWW archives for circular saw and this comes up first, I believe. The title is "Circular Saw in the Furniture Shop?"
http://www.taunton.com/store/FWArchive/FWarch_Purch.asp
Edited 11/7/2005 8:03 am ET by woodworker79
I use 4 saw horss and a strait edge. For the cutting part I use a PC CS with a Forrest woodworker blade. The edges are perfect and I can get the cuts down to managable sizes to move to the table saw. Not the fastest in the world, but works for me.
My shop is a little on the tight side too, so I decided long ago that things should be on casters or could be disassembled and serve more than one application.
This is the system I use. Actually mine is not entirely based on this article but does essentially the same thing.
It's cheap, easy to use, has no nail to 'suprise' your blade and can be knocked down if you need the space. Oh and it doubles as strudy assembly table.
Have a nice day!
SoarThumb
Maybe my experience will help you decide.
I have not used a Festool, although I've seen it on This Old House and in demos at tool stores. I spent $185 for the EZ (EurekaZone System). I use the EZ with a PC circular saw, which I am about to change to a 8 1/4 saw.
The EZ base really needs to be permanently mounted (IMO, which I did). But that limits some of the saw features -
It's pretty easy to see why I feel a need for a dedicated saw, a saw that's bigger, and what the Festool advantages are. I love the Festool Systainer storage boxes, I dislike the prices, I am embarassed that Euro tools often seem to offer innovative design.
I do find the EZ clamps work pretty well. The guide rails are quite strong but also quite heavy - i.e., I threat them with great care. I also find the joined rails tend to snag the saw base (I've been too lazy to use a file to chamber the top edge).
Conclusion:I think the EZ is quite impressive addition to a circular saw, but I think it really requires a dedicated saw and some "engineering" by the owner. A great tool, but too expensive. The Festool benefits from being an integrated system and the plunge feature is superb. A great tool, but too expensive.
Hmmm... I think I notice a pattern on my review...
I use a sacrificial table with folding legs. made from 4, 1x4x6 poplar and 2ft x 2ft, 3/4 ply. Use 2, 6ft sections joined at ends with 3x sections and 2 more 3x sections in between. cut the ply in half and secure to the bottom of the 3x at each end and next stringer. Add folding legs. Use shooter boards and when done fold up and hang on the wall weighs about 10lbs. Legs cost about $19.00 at HD.
Just my .02 :))) Have a Great Holiday Season Everyone
MK
Edited 11/10/2005 1:24 pm by MiKro
That sounds like an interesting table you have designed.But how about trying the description again, since I ahd trouble visualizing what you were doing. Thanks.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Here's a quick drawing of it.
I would add some small ply gussets to the bottom corners for added strength. Glue all joints and use finish nails only half way up the joints so no nails are more than 2in from top surfaces so the saw blade won't cath a nail.
Mike K
Edited 11/8/2005 8:46 am by MiKro
I understand that your floor space is at a premium so have you thought of a wall based system? Years ago a mate of mine had made a similar one to the commercially available one at http://www.sawtrax.com/Page2.html
Regards,
Bob
Thank all of you for your input. I will have to do some more of my own research on the Eureka system. I'm a little concerned about the Festool ATF55. A couple of posts about it bogging down make me wonder if it is a good saw. I wonder how a circular saw could bog down cutting a single sheet of anything if it is truly a quality product. They both seem to be equal in price(I would have to buy a new saw if I went with the Eureka). Maybe I'll just wait to see what the new Festool saws will offer.
Again, Thanks for all your help,
Bloomnfan
I've used the AT55 for ~ 6 months on sheet and hardwoods. Can't remeber it ever bogging down.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I've used the atf many times.
No problems.
David.
Edited 11/9/2005 7:47 pm ET by davidwood
I built a cart for sheet goods so I can roll it around and out of the way when I need. On one side of the cart I built a ledge and use a wooden "T" (I built) that looks a lot like the t-square the drywall guys use. One side of the T is long and the other has been cut to the distance between the edge of the circular saw sole and the blade (shorter side). I clamp the t-square onto the sheet with a c-clamps on each side and cut. It works fine for me 'cause I mostly cut in half then run on the tablesaw to get down to 23 1/4" for cabinets.
I may be a little late in responding to your question.
You may want to check out the TS 55 saw by Festool. It is a new release and a fantastic professional tool.
http://www.Festoolusa.com
Hope that helps you!
Another vote for the EZ guide. While you're at it order the smart table kit for about $50. I believe the Ez guide is about $189. but it's on sale this month at Hartville Tool for $159.
I've used it with a Milwaukee tilt-lock 7 1/4" saw and got terrific results. Then I got a Bosch 8 1/4" saw for the increased capacity. The cut was almost as good but not quite. I'm leaving it on the Bosch for the extra depth.
Good luck. You will be happy with the EZ. Just take some time making sure the groove in the Smart-base is perfectly parallel with the saw blade.
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