Replies

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 23, 2009 08:12am | #1

   In the likely event someone would suggest it - I have cross posted my message over at Breaktime.

   Thanks,

   Lee

1. 
   Eef | Jan 24, 2009 12:41am | #12

   lee,

   about 18 years ago i and a buddy did one of those curved jobs.  i do not have  much to add with regards how-to.  i can tell you that what others are telling you is most valuable.  we went  the lamination route using, what i think was called,bender board.

   anyway, i really like the advice you've been given.  wish i had had knots when i was doing kitchens and bathrooms, would've saved me much heart ache.

   eef

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Jan 23, 2009 08:40am | #2

   Lee,

   Do you have any idea what the radius would be? I think that bent lamination would be the easiest, especially for mild curves. Cutting from thick stock would be easy too, but more wasteful.

   For the doors, the method you choose will be determined by the look you are after. A coopered door has a very distinct look unless you veneer it. You could again use bent lamination for the doors, either edge-banded plywood or frame and panel. I don't know how you would raise a curved panel.

   The pulls will likely be decided by the hardware used elsewhere in the house. If the curve is mild, there should be no problem mounting it as normal. Some hardware is bendable, so that may be something worth looking into.

   Pricing... I'm still trying to figure out how to price my work too. Darn - it ain't easy!

   Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
   (soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

3. 
   dmdnk | Jan 23, 2009 09:05am | #3

   Lee,

   Most of the process will depend upon the design details of the project and available equipment.  If you have access to a vaccuum press, most things curved become easier to produce.  If not, everything's still possible- it just takes longer.

   The simplest shape to produce would, of course, be a slab made of bending ply and veneer.  For detail, an edging with a profile is fairly simple to add.  If the curve has a large radius, the solid wood parts like edging and frame parts can be cut from thick stock and still look good. 

   If you have some ideas about the design, I'll offer whatever advice I'm able to.  I've done a good amount of curved work and always love doing it.  However, I can't say that I'm always good at pricing it! 

   David

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 04:52am | #16

   dmdnk (and others) re: the vacuum press -

    yes, I have one. I will likely need a larger bag but in the event I go that route I will have the majority of the set up on hand. I also have a bandsaw available that will allow resawing my own veneers and/or laminations.

   Lee

1. 
   dmdnk | Jan 24, 2009 05:27am | #24

   Lee,

   I'm curious- how large is the piece that you will be building?  Will the face be convex or cancave?

   My fovorite material for templates is 1/4" thick mdf.  It's cheap, flat, you can sand pencil lines off it, you can cut it up to use as cauls in the vaccuum bag, etc., etc.

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:48am | #29

   dmdnk,

   I haven't been to the construction site yet, but from what I understand it is in the neighborhood of an 8 foot run, give or take.

   The run will be convex. The wall the cabinets attach to is curved outward due to a spiral staircase on the other side of the wall.

   I can't say I like that MDF stuff - I usually get a decent quality ply from my local supplier so that's what I use for templates. I do use the MDF when necessary, though.

   Lee

1. 
   dmdnk | Jan 24, 2009 06:37am | #31

   Convex is good!  Much easier to have the show face on the convex surface.  I respect that you don't like MDF, but as a templating material I find it superior to plywood because of the dense, solid edge it provides.  Plywood sometimes has unexpected voids and splinters and is much softer than mdf.  For curved work, the template often has to be used repeatedly for the various tracings and offsettings to get the several different radii associated with each curve.However, if you're comfortable with the plywood, stick with it!

2. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 07:56am | #32

   All the things you mention about the mdf are true - it's just the dust I resent! I do agree it makes a wonderful template material and it is easy to shape.

   Cheers,

   Lee

3. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 24, 2009 12:32pm | #33

   mapleman, you might find this extract on charge rates for curved laminated work and steam bending from my text 'Estimating for Furniture Makers' useful.  Slainte.

   Every surface square foot of a bend is charged at 8 hours. For example, if you want to form an arced laminated panel that is 25" long with a 12" arc that is 1/2" thick the sum is (25 X 12) / 144 = 2.08 ft².  Similarly, a part, eg a rail, with a 34" long arc,  2" wide X 7/8" thick calculate (34 X 2) / 144 = 0.47 ft². Apply a 5% discount to each additional square foot up to a 30% maximum, e.g., 5ft² equals 40 hrs less 25% = 30 hours, and 10 ft² = 56 hrs which includes the maximum 30% discount.

   The times suggested don’t make adjustments for such factors as the complexity of the mould or former that must be made, nor for the method of bending-- cold bag press, heated bag press, cauls, cold clamping, male only or male/female moulds, etc. No allowance is made for the number of laminates required to create the necessary thickness. The figures also don’t account for time needed to prepare the bending material—this might be the simple cutting of bending ply into strips, rectangles or squares compared to producing bandsawn veneers in the workshop. The suggested 8 hours/square foot rate is a good base figure that's adjustable according to job complexity. The job entails producing the bending form or jig which sometimes requires modification, or even a completely new form must be made to compensate for unexpectedly large springback. Preparing the laminates, spreading glue, applying clamping pressure, and tidying up after the job follows this.Richard Jones Furniture

4. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 06:09pm | #35

   Richard,

   Very, very useful. Where can I find a copy of Estimating for Furniture Makers? Is it in book form or was it a magazine article somewhere?

   Thanks,

   Lee

5. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 24, 2009 06:38pm | #38

   mapleman, in the US it appeared in Woodwork, issue 102, December 2006. I believe it is also just about to appear in a British magazine-- I could be wrong about that, but the magazine editors have indicated that is the case. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

4. 
   ring | Jan 23, 2009 12:00pm | #4

   Lee,

   Let me start with your question on pricing - you're in the ballpark. I would price towards the higher end if it requires lamination, towards the lower end if it's more cut from solid stock. I don't know how you build your prices, but when we look at a job we price the carcase separately from the doors and drawers. Your cabinets are going to be square inside in any case...it's only the facing elements that are curved.

   Up to the point where it's feasible I'd go with cutting and shaping solid stock. If you can get your door rails and stiles out of 8/4 stock, then that's the way to go. In planning the cabinet layout, the narrower each unit is the easier this becomes. Faceframe members can be joined up from several pieces but door/drawer width cannot. So I'd try to figure what's the widest door that I could get from 8/4 stock at the given radius and try to make the plans fit that width. If that's impossible, then you'll have to go with lamination.

   Another point to consider at the planning stage - it's much easier to get away with fitting curved doors when you use a 3/8" rabbet inset, as opposed to full inset doors. If you can influence the design to use the 3/8" lip, you will be very glad afterwards (and maybe even send me a percentage!).

   Absolutely vital - make a full-sized pattern of the wall's curvature to lay on your shop floor. I like to make a masonite pattern and stick it to the floor with a few drops of builder's adhesive so it stays put for a few weeks. If you do this carefully and build the units "in place" you will have less surprises when it comes time to fit the real thing.

   Regarding door panels - this may look daunting but it's the easiest part. Depending on what you need to produce you can use bendable ply covered with veneer, shape the panels from solid stock (the back can remain straight usually) or cooper them up and then shape them.

   good luck, keep us posted.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:04am | #17

   David,

   Alll very good points. I am also glad you weighed in on the pricing - that's where I both don't want to sell myself short but at the same time I don't want to price mysef out of the game.

   You mentioned lipped doors - a good idea. This would basically look like an overlay door but the thickness of the door where it meets the cabinet would be reduced.  I much rather the inset door look but would prefer not to go that route and having to take the time fitting each door. I will also have a whole house of kitchen and laundry cabinets to do in addition to this curved run so I can't spend a lifetime on this one cabinet. And I didn't mention I'm a one employee shop (me) Ha Ha.

   Re: template. Gotcha! My plan was to create a full size template before the first piece of wood gets cut. I may not be in a position to glue it to the floor but my plan was to use something like 1/4" plywood so it can be moved around without compromising the shape of the template.

   I also like your idea about shaping the panels from solid stock but leaving the backs straight. I may pick your brain about that a little later.

    

   Thanks,

   Lee

    

5. 
   slashdev | Jan 23, 2009 04:40pm | #5

   Here's a curved-front vanity I posted about a year ago:

   View Image

   There's some information in the post about the curved drawer fronts and joinery, if you're interested... 

   ---------------

   /dev

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:06am | #18

   /dev,

   I remember your post. Couldn't find it when I was looking around for related threads. I will bookmark the thread and I'm sure I will have some questions for you.

   Thanks,

   Lee

6. 
   DJK | Jan 23, 2009 04:54pm | #6

   Lee,
   Check tis link http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Radius_Cabinet_Job__Project_Review.html

   I've built radius flat panel cabinet doors from radius plywood and veneer with and without curved glass. Never done raised panel. The wholesale door shops get more than $300/raised panel door.
   DJK

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:07am | #19

   DJK,

   Actually Dusty reminded me about Woodweb. You're link is much appreciated. I'm off to explore it in a little while.

   Lee

7. 
   joinerswork | Jan 23, 2009 04:56pm | #7

   Lee,

   I've had good success with using laminated (1/8" thick laminations) stock for face frame rails, and solid stock for the uprights, which I simply planed on the face side after assemby to match the curve of the rails.  The piece I built was a kidney-shaped cabinet, with both convex and concave curves involved, and was in butternut, a pretty easy wood to work.  I had no problems with springback with this material.  More rigid wood might require thinner laminations.  

   Doors were made with laminated rails as above, and solid stiles.  The panels were flat, and made by veneering both faces of 1/4" bending ply, which yields a surprisingly rigid panel. I'll agree with David, fitting the doors is a challenge.  Mine were flush, and a good fit has to be snuck up on.

   I laminated the drawer fronts in poplar and veneered them with butternut, and covered the edges with cockbead.  (It's hard to cut dovetails in bending ply "endgrain".)  I do not care for the appearance of fronts sawed from solid stock; they take stain differently towards their ends, and if not quartersawn, the grain patterns can be goofy looking and distracting.  That being said, if solid fronts are carefully selected, this can yield interesting appearance.

   Like David, I worked from a full sized drawing. 

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:12am | #20

   Ray,

   If I go the lamination route, I like your method. I will start with 1/8" thickness and go from there. Will also do a test run or three to check for springback. Also great advice on drawer fronts from solid stock - I will keep that info handy. A veneered front IMO would look better than one cut from thick stock on a bandsaw.

   Thanks,

   Lee

8. 
   Hastings | Jan 23, 2009 05:15pm | #8

   Lee:

   Once you get more detailed drawings, you might find that some of the work will be best accomplished on a CNC machine. Maybe, you can find a local CNC machine to whom you can sub work.

   We are getting a 5-axis machine at the yard. As part of the research, we visited a shop in Baton-Rouge that had 3,4 & 5 axis machines (and time available).

   Bear in mind that you may not be competitive if a CNC-equipped shop also bids.

   Here's a quote from a high-end furniture maker:

   Henkel-Harris first applied Mastercam Router to 3D contours. Many of the standard chests the company makes have graceful curved drawer fronts. Mastercam Router reduced manufacturing time for a contoured drawer front with full dovetailing on the sides from three or four days to just three or four hours. "You can see why we're excited," says Cooper. "We are getting results we could only dream about before. But the greatest thing about Mastercam Router is that it is so easy to get there."

   Good luck with your bid.

   Hastings

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:17am | #21

   Hastings,

   I am a little overly cautious about the CNC approach for a few reasons. One is, I am way too anal and prefer to keep as much in the shop and do as little outsourcing as possible. The other is - I'm not sure what or how to spec the job to a CNC shop to get what I require. I'm sure they could produce the job much quicker, but with an hourly rate. In the event I got into a crunch for time, that may be an option.

   Lee

9. 
   Dave45 | Jan 23, 2009 05:49pm | #9

   At the risk of belaboring the obvious, don't forget that you'll be dealing with several different radii as you do thru the design/build process.

   If, for example, the curved wall has a radius of 10' and the cabinet needs to be 24" from front to back, the inside radius for the cabinet front will need to be 96'. If you're doing 3/4" thick overlay doors and drawer fronts, their inside radii should be 95.25".

   If I were doing this job, I would spend beaucoup time doing 3D CAD drawings before I touched a tool. I would probably also build a mockup of the wall in the shop so I could test fit pieces as I built.

   I'm not sure if 3x - 4x is the right multiplier for this. If you're doing bent laminations, you'll need several jigs, additional time for resawing, gluing and clamping, and a lot of the mill work is going to be complicated because of the curves.

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:24am | #22

   Dave,

   No belaboring taken! I was aware that the cabinet radius would be slightly different than the wall, and the doors.  I was under the impression that the front of the cabinet would have a larger radius than the wall (and the doors a larger radius than the cabinet)- but you are saying smaller. Wouldn't the radius get larger the farther away from the wall you get? As you can see, I have a lot to learn ;-)

   Lee

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 24, 2009 06:24am | #30

   I assumed that the cabinet goes on the concave side of the curved wall. If it goes on the convex side, you're right - the radii get larger as you get further from the wall.Whichever way it goes, however, you'll need to be really precise with your curves. Even a small "oops" will make your fitup a PITA.

10. 
    Cincinnati | Jan 23, 2009 08:05pm | #10

    Are you sure you want the radius of the cabinet face to be identical to the wall radius?

    Or are you making the cabinet face radius = wall radius + depth of cabinet

    Greg

    •••••••

    Exo 35:30-35

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:25am | #23

   Cin,

   You are correct - that is what I meant to say. The cabinet face radius would be the wall radius + the depth of the cabinet.

   Lee

11. 
    JeffHeath | Jan 23, 2009 08:09pm | #11

    Lee

    I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive any redundancies.  I've done this twice.  It is very rewarding, but it takes alot of extra time, so charge accordingly.  I had doubled my normal rate, and when the projects were done, I felt I should have charged more.  I did learn quite a bit about how to be quicker next time.

    If you don't already have a vacuum press, then get one.  It will make life so much easier.  I used 1/8" laminations that I cut myself on the bandsaw.  I bought the laminations for the raised panels, as they were wider than my resaw capacity.  I made up forms out of mdf and bending ply, and used the vac press for the rails, panels, and drawer fronts. You shouldn't need to curve the stiles, as you can just plane them to match the curvature of the piece.  I made a long form that fit in the bag, and I was able to make 4 drawer fronts and 8 rails at the same time.

    I actually recreated the wall curvature in my shop exactly to specs, and that took out all the guess work for fitting.  I built them in place, and got everything fitting nicely before finishing the cabinets. 

    Good luck, and keep us posted.  I'd enjoy watching your progress with pics, if it doesn't slow you down too much!!   LOL

    Jeff

     

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:33am | #25

   Jeff,

   All good advice, especially on pricing. I don't feel there is anyone in the area that would even take this on, without charging a small fortune. Since it's my first time I'm willing to give the customer a fair price, but I won't do the job if I can't make money with it. While I would love to give this a shot - I'm not working for free.

   See one of my above posts - I do have a press but will likely need a larger bag. I may pick your brain a bit about the form construction and laminating the raised panels when the time comes.

   And yes, I will have a full sized template of the wall in the shop to manufacture to. I hate surprises on the job site on installation day!!!

   Peace out,

   Lee

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jan 25, 2009 02:40am | #45

   Good luck getting the job.  Once you do, keep posting your questions here.  As I've read on a bit, I see you've gotten plenty of good advice, and plenty to think about. 

   I am a big fan of using mdf for all my forms.  If you draw the entire job out, full size, on a sheet of mdf, you will easily be able to reference all the curves, lengths, width's, etc.........For me, it is a great reference to make things easy.  As much as I trust my math (32 on my math ACT before college..........not too shabby, huh???  LOL) I prefer pictures these days.

   Anyways, have at it, and post questions here.  I'll be looking forward to seeing this project evolve for you.  I wish it were mine..........I'm hanging crown moulding in a house next week for work, if you can believe it.  Sign o' the times, I guess.  Work is work.

   Jeff

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 25, 2009 03:44am | #46

   I agree about the advice. It's usually good here. I posted the same message over at breaktime, and while some people were helpful - it's just a different crowd.

   I can top your crown molding story. Guy walks in the cabinet shop I'm working at (when I'm not doing my own thing) and wants his 2 cypress screen doors stained and sprayed with his supplied varnish (marine spar varnish, none the less). Since times are slow, the boss agrees to do the job even after I express my doubts and reluctance (unfortunately it's his shop, not mine). So since I'm the "finishing schmuck/guru" I have been elected to do the honors. I brought the doors home and sprayed a nice (YUCK!) coat of that spar varnish on the doors at 9:30 this a.m. They're still sitting in the booth - and still almost as wet as they were this morning ;-)

   But hey, it pays the bills!

   Lee

    

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jan 25, 2009 09:11pm | #47

   It's unreal, isn't it.  I'm making more money right now playing poker than I am working wood.  Hopefully, it'll get busy for both of us soon.

   Jeff

12. 
    TaunTonMacoute | Jan 24, 2009 01:13am | #13

    This link is on Gary Katz's website:

    http://www.miterclamp.com/radius/pages/Radiuscabinetphotoessay.htm

    
    

    ---

    Edited 1/23/2009 5:15 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:34am | #26

   TTM,

   I'm off to Gary's site after I brush up on the Woodweb articles posted earlier.

   Thanks for the link!

   Lee

13. 
    EarlKelly | Jan 24, 2009 02:56am | #14

    Lee,

    The first problem is to determine the style the customer wants. The process for building a rail and style face frame cabinet is quite a bit different from a flush front European style veneered cabinet. With the latter being easiest and cleaner IMO. I've built quite a few curved doors and drawers using high end veneers and bendy ply.

    With a vacuum press it's not difficult but is time consuming making the forms, gluing up the panels and then getting the trim cuts sq to the tangent of the curve.

    Earl

    Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 05:39am | #27

   Hi Earl,

   You're absolutely correct - I do not know at this time exactly what the customer is looking for. I do know it will likely not be European style (or if it is - then I will need way more help than I originally figured on - I may need your cell phone # ;-)

    My reason for posting here was to get a rough idea of different construction techniques so that I would be better prepared for my meeting with the customer.

   And I can definitely say that you guys have all come through with some good points to consider.

   Lee

14. 
    mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 04:48am | #15

    A huge thanks to all who responded! Some very good advice from all of you. I do value the advice I get here because I think there are some extremely talented people here on the forum. I will try to respond to most everyone seperately.

    Lee

15. 
    Mackwood | Jan 24, 2009 05:48am | #28

    Just my .02 worth but I would definitely go to the "highest case" on your bid if you have the clients confidence.  If, after all is said and done, you feel that it was too high you can always cut them a rebate check or toss in a freebe to even things out.

    Best of luck in both getting the job and doing it profitably!

    Regards,

    Mack

    "Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"

16. 
    Dave45 | Jan 24, 2009 05:41pm | #34

    Another design issue will be drawer boxes. The fronts and backs can curve as much as you want, but the sides gotta be parallel.

    This requires that a drawer 12" wide x 18" deep (front to back) has enough room at the back to open and close without interferring with an adjacent drawer. This can lead to a fairly wide separation between drawer fronts.

    Spend a day, or two, or three, drawing this thing up before you fire up any saws. Like I always tell my customers...."Electrons (or pencil lead and paper) are a helluva lot cheaper than lumber." - lol

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 24, 2009 06:11pm | #36

   Dave,

   Good point about the drawer boxes intersecting at the rear of the cabinet. Rest assured, I'm sure there will be a mistake or two but I will lay out every detail possible before I go ahead with stock preparation. Thanks again for your input!

   Lee

1. 
   oldusty | Jan 24, 2009 06:56pm | #40

     Lee ,

             Who say's a drawer box needs to be straight or square , for what you are looking at you really need to think out of the normal box so to speak.

     I have not built curved front drawers but have done some angles and some were guided only on one side or underneath , all you need is a straight line of travel for most any config.

     Have you seen the site yet ? Besides I know  the design you come up with can solve challenges before they become problems.

      Hey ,, I never design anything I can't build or can't get through the door ,,,,anymore .

          I looked at a picture of a vanity a client showed me yesterday with 2 vessel sinks in the middle and a raised section on each end with flip down fronts for accessing stuff , so you never know what they want until you get there and at that time you may have to find middle ground from what they want and what is doable by you .

          you better C sharp or your gonna B flat

                           dusty

2. 
   dmdnk | Jan 24, 2009 10:47pm | #44

   The slides you'll want to consider are center undermount slides.  I'd use a pair of them set parallel to each other rather than one mounted in the center, doubling their weight capacity and eliminating any wobble.  The ones I've used are generally 3/4 extension so get the longest slide that will fit in the cabinet.  They have a bracket that attaches to the back of the cabinet or they can be screwed to a shelf or divider.  The cost is around $6 to $10 per slide.  One bonus of being undermount is that the slide will be concealed.

   Look at the KV1129 or Accuride 1029.

2. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 24, 2009 06:32pm | #37

   "The fronts and backs can curve as much as you want, but the sides gotta be parallel."

   Dave, not necessarily so if you think about it, for if you mount a guide or guides under the bottom of a drawer you could make the drawers, in plan, a variation of a regular trapezoid; you would replace the long straight base line of the trapezoid with an arc, and you could keep the short rear line (that would normally be parallel to the long base line)  straight. The angled side lines would then be equally obtuse from this rear line to their intersection point at the corner of the curved drawer front. The guides required are placed at right angles to the drawer back.

   Granted, this variation of a trapezoid-- which surely has a proper name that escapes me, doesn't make for the most practical drawer, and funny gaps appear at the drawer sides as the drawer is opened, but it is perfectly do-able, and all the drawer sides are close to each other when the drawers are all closed. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 24, 2009 06:52pm | #39

   True enough - if you mount the glides under the drawer box. The glides would have to be parallel, but the box sides could be angled. That runs the price up by $50 (or more) per drawer. - lolI've never mounted glides under a drawer box since I have no idea what their load rating would be laying flat instead of upright.

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 24, 2009 08:39pm | #41

   "I have no idea what their load rating would be laying flat instead of upright."

   Usually about half Dave, eg, a 70 kg rating drops to about 35. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

2. 
   oldusty | Jan 24, 2009 09:07pm | #42

   Dave ,   There are under mount slides made for the application , regular laying flat as Richard said about 1/2 the capacity for wt .Besides the Euro under mounts there is more available also .

       The problem I noticed is sagging when you use those side mount type under laying flat on their sides . Accuride 1029D type take 3/8" space and will work but only 3/4 extension , they work good in retro fitting roll out shelves just bottom mount the slide to the shelves or bottom not to worry about a side mount .

                dusty

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 24, 2009 09:51pm | #43

   I seldom run into a situation where I need (or am tempted) to use fully undermounted glides. That tidbit about derating side mounts by ~50% is useful. I've always wondered about that. - lolUnless I need full extension, I often use the inexpensive roller glides (Liberty?)that you find in Home Depot. The piece that goes on the drawer box is "L" shaped and provides continuous support to the drawer sides. IIRC, they all are rated at 100# which is really plenty for most cabinet drawers. If I need full extension (or overtravel), or expect really heavy drawer loads, I use the heavier duty glides.