How are you guys cutting (across the grain) 18-22 inches wide boards without a reference edge. Miter on the table saw is not long enough to keep the board on the table. The cross cut saws including the almost defunct radial do not reach that far. A circular saw even with the a guide does not give a clean cut. Any solution or suggestion is welcome.
John Cabot
Replies
I thought that I'd chime in before Mr. Flairwoodworks did :). I'd highly recommend the Festool Plunge Saw with guide rail. I went all the way and got the MFT table and fence system and a 55 inch guide rail. The table and fence system has a 24 inch crosscut capacity. With the 55 inch guide rail I can cut down sheets of plywood too, now I no longer fear full sheets of plywood, except getting them home without a pickup truck! Actually, the FT saw and guide rail is so accurate, I have been doing the cuts to the finish size with the saw since I'm already setup and cutting.
BTW: I originally wanted a new table saw with a sliding table, preferably a Euro Slider, but my home remodel went a little overboard. I was able to justify the FT Saw cause I had to cut down about 15 doors during the trim stage.
Okay, I got beat to this thread.
If the board isn't much longer than it is wide, I would crosscut it on the table saw using the rip fence. Not by the book, but I've had good success with this.
I find that a circular saw with a good blade does an okay job. The bottom side is usually great but the top is splintered. Try a band of masking tape over the cut line or scoring the cut line to minimize splintering.
Currently, most of my edges (and faces, for that matter) are refined with a handplane and the edges are lightly chamfered.
The Festool saw is probably the best solution (albeit costly) if you have a lot wide boards to crosscut.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
John,
Anything less than 32" I cut on my radial arm saw. The cross cut limit on mine is 16" , so I have to be sure to clamp a stop against the fence at the required length, saw half way, flip the workpiece, then finish the cut by sawing the flip side. This is a good way to test the accuracy of your saw set up: if the blade is set precisely 90 degrees to the fence, you will get a straight cut . (This is assuming that your workpiece has straight sides that are parallel to each other.) Gary
26" crosscut sled for the TS
Clamp a strip of wood to the bottom of the board that is longer than the full width of the board. Let this strip slide along the left edge of the table saw. Obviously, the clamped strip must be square to the board and left edge of saw parallel to the blade.
Another option is to use your hand circular saw and cut 1/8" oversize and ignore quality of cut. Place this edge against the saw's fence crosscut, then take that nice quality cut and place it against the fence and trim the poor quality edge you cut with the hand circular saw.
Edited 3/12/2008 5:58 am ET by DonC
I mark it with a framing square, crosscut it with a handsaw leaving a hint of the line, clean up to the line with a smooth or jack plane.
Total tool investment - about $100. No ongoing maintenance costs other than saw files and honing oil.
Set up time, jig building time - None.
Edited 3/12/2008 6:38 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
That's just crazy talk.
Ray
Ain't it though. A wormdrive Skilsaw with a decent blade, run against a Clamp-N-Tool Guide, would give as clean a cut as anybody would ever need if power tools must be used. But I think I read something about not having a reference edge which to me means using a handsaw. I'd lay a rafter square across the board, eyeball square (to the "live" edge I'm assuming), draw line with pencil, and be done about a minute and a half later.
Edited 3/13/2008 7:42 am ET by BossCrunk
might be crazy talk, but he woulda had the darn thing cut in less time than it took yer computer to boot up.Doncha agree?Eric
"A circular saw even with the a guide does not give a clean cut."
Lemme guess -- you're using a cheapo blade from a big box in your CS.
I have no problem using a home made guide when I use a good blade. Forrest makes their WWI blades (and maybe other models) in 7-1/4" size. And a Forrest blade for your saw is just a bit cheaper than investing in a Festool system you only need for a few cuts now and then. ;-) Dunno, but Freud, etc. may also make glue-line quality blades for a CS, but I doubt you'll see 'em at the Depot -- I never have anyway.
I'd save the good blade for special uses -- no cutting nails with it doing demo. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I can attest to the fact that a new Forrest WWII 7-1/4" blade works wonders in an ordinary circular saw. The bottom side of the cut is perfect; the top side, even without making any effort to prevent splintering, is nearly so.
-Steve
Thank you Mike for making me aware of the availability of a good quality blade for the circular saw. I use Forrest blades in my TS and miter saw. They are great. I have a lot of woodworking supplies catalogs and never remember to have seen a Forrest 7&1/4 blades. I did buy a "Diablo" from Freud but I was not impressed by the quality of their cut.
It is nice to hear from a woodworker from Western Pennsylvania here in Western Maryland.
John Cabot
Yeah -- I love my Forrests. That's pretty much all I use on my TS. Once I started using them, I put my jointer under a blanket in the corner and only use it once or twice a year.
Every once in a while, I'd need to make a crosscut, or some wacky cut that was impractical on the stationary saws, with a CS and I found myself thinking "Man, if only Forrest made a blade for the CS." Then, out of curiosity, I checked their site, and sure enough, there it was. Bingo!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
If you haven't already done so, make yourself a large TS sled like the one below. It's 20 X 36.
View Image
Edited 3/14/2008 7:13 pm ET by knuts
That's a very fancy sled. Aren't you afraid of scratching the veneer with your workpieces? ;-)
-Steve
That's a table top being squared off! The sled is under it.
Aww, ya shouldna told him! He's from Ohio so he'd never know the difference. OK, I'll be honest with ya, I thought that was some fancy crosscut sled too.
:>)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No, I live in Ohio. I'm from California. You know, land of fruits and nuts.
-Steve
John,
18-22 inches wide boards without a reference edge
I would start here before employing any of the suggested methods for crosscutting afterwards unless of course you're looking to preserve a live edge.
Either way I would employ a crosscut sled or the RAS approach. Crosscut sleds are very handy to have anyway if you don't already have one. Might cost ya some time setting it but I'm sure you will use it many times.
But I'd still be concerned that I don't have something to establish an accurate crosscut without something to reference against.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I echo JointerMan - the Festool and edge guide will give a really high-quality edge and you won't necessarily need a reference edge.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I get good results crosscutting plywood with a circular saw and guide. The trick is to use a good "finish" blade in the saw, use a smooth motion while making the cut, tape the line to reduce tearout, and use a good saw (tight bearings, flat sole, accurate 90* setup).
You'll also want to have a solid, stable, work surface. I get my best cuts when I build a temporary table on sawhorses with a piece of 1/2" particle board as a surface. Clamp the workpiece and guide to the table, set the depth ~1/8" deeper than the thickness of the workpiece and make your cut with a smooth, steady, motion.
"I get my best cuts when I build a temporary table on sawhorses with a piece of 1/2" particle board as a surface."
I use rigid foam panels for cutting tables. Light, cheap-ish, reusable and it's easy on the blades.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Yea Mike,
Good idea. I love rigid panels to support plywood being cut. The rigid panel supports 100% of the plywood before,during,and after the cut is made. The rigid panels can take alot of cuts before they become unusable.
I use the rigid so much I got kinda fancy and bought a rigid insulation panel that is 2" thick. Pink color.
"I use the rigid so much I got kinda fancy and bought a rigid insulation panel that is 2" thick. Pink color."
Exactly -- and the lovely pink color just matches the shop apron and curtains perfectly!
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Of course your lovely assistant had nothing to do with it right?
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Of course your lovely assistant had nothing to do with it right?"
'Course not.
She prefers the blue -- matches her eyes.
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
This sounds like a lot of work but its really not.......
I have a narrow table that I use for support when I'm crosscutting sheet goods. Its the height of the saw, 12-16 inches wide and 4 or 5 ft. long. It mostly sits against the wall unused or full of clutter, but comes in handy. When cutting rough or out of square ends I fashion a jig. It consists of a strait edged board around 3-4" x 4' or so. I screw that squarely to a scrap of ply about 2' wide x 4' or more long. Scew it roughly centerd accross the width. I run the staight edge against the saw tables edge and cut the ply off giving me an accurate cut line for future use. Then you add a rear fence that is square to the cut line, and you're ready to go. This jig and the support table do well together for long pieces. It works a lot like a slider in that if the support table is a few feet away from the saw but still supporting the jig I can just walk the jig and piece to be cut right on through between saw and table. It only needs fixing or repair every few years and is handy for me. I suppose you could improve upon it by adding tracks in the miter gauge slot etc. but I like its simplicity. To me its faster then setting up guides for skillsaws or router. Lots of good ideas though, can"t go wrong with most of them.
Hey Frost, I like it.
I have something similar...there are so many ways to skin a cat.
Instead of your support table, I have positioned my jointer to the left of the table saw. The jointer's fence has an auxillary fence applied that is the same height as the table saw surface. This allows support of long boards when crosscutting.
By the way, my jointer,s auxillary fence is a taper that allows a diagonal cut, it's not a true searing cut but it's better than perpendicular to the grain.
By the way again (thinkin of height of machines). I postioned my drill press directly behind my band saw. On the few occasions when I cut a long board on the band saw, I position the drill press table to support the long board.
By the way again, my drill press is to the left of my radial arm saw, the drill press table can be adjusted to support long boards to be cut on the radial.
By the way again, to the right of the radial arm table surface is my router table. They are both the same height. I love the fact that they are both typically higher than most workbenches. I'm too old to bend over unless I'm using a hand plane.
Shop design is tough enough, BUT when you consider elevation into your design it adds a 3rd dimension that can help daily greatly in repitive tasks.
Did I say miter chop saw is on caster and can be positioned between router table and radial arm table at the same elevation?
Elevations on vacations make me sick....but not in the shop.
Don
Or, if the pink stuff isn't on the isle you are on at the Borg, try the blue stuff - works great as well.
Mike D
John,
If Boss's solution doesn't appeal to you:
I usually use a variation of Don's technique. I clamp a full length straight piece of scrap 3" or so wide ( 3' length of pine shelving or similar) to the rip fence, held up from the table so that the stock to be cut will slide under it. Set the rip fence so that the edge of the strip (auxiliary fence) is exactly flush with the outside of the sawblade, and raise the blade up just into the edge of the strip.
Tack a straight edge to the stock to be cut, at the line where you want the cut to be. (cut the stock bottom-side up, so that tack holes will not show on the finished surface. On case ends that will be dovetailed, or that will have applied moldings, this won't matter) With the excess stock sliding under the auxilliary fence, and the straight-edge running against the fence, the cut will be made flush with the straightedge. After making the cut, shut down the saw, and retrieve the offcut before cutting the other end.
This technique can also be used to advantage for making multiple pieces over a template of a specific shape (think corner cabinet shelves). Glue up the stock an inch or so oversize all round, tack the template to the stock, and trim the overhanging edges flush with the template.
Ray
MY circular saw WILL most certainly get a clean cut when used with a clamped straight edge! When I do such cuts they resemble cabinet saw cuts. Perhaps you need a better circular saw or a higher quality blade? Maybe your straight edge is not a good one? It is really not too tough to do this.
I did use a fine old Millers Falls circular saw for about twenty years and when I was finally forced to retire it I was shocked at how smooth my new saw (Milwaukee) cut... apparently the bearings in the Millers Falls saw had worn slowly until they were allowing significant vibration of the blade which I did not notice as I must have acclimated to the reduced performance gradually.
Make yourself a panel cutting jig, you can generally cut up to about 36".
an accurate crosscut sled for the tablesaw works well.
these days i dont make the runners for the sled out of wood. ive found 1/4" plexi-glas perfect for the job. plexi-glas wont shrink or swell.
good luck
eef
Ditto on using a circular saw with a good blade. I also use the straightedge jig where you put a guide edge on a wider "base" board, trim the base to fit your saw/blade. You then place the jig's edge along the line to cut; it does help with tearout.
If I had the bucks I'd get the Festool that everyone mentions, but that's not next on my list of things to get.
You could also clean up an intentionally oversized cut from a circular saw or a jigsaw with a router/straight bit and straightedge.
Festool all the way for me John! No problem at all for the TS55 and a guide rail. I love all my Festool!
Cut it roughly to size (to within 1/8th or so) with the saw of your choice, then square and clean up with a router.
Sliding table on the table saw with the fence on the leading edge, or sled on the table saw, or if the board is really long and awkward to cut on the table saw, clamp a fence and use a circular saw with a good blade.
M. cabot was lookin fer a way to x-cut wide boards.
he said"A circular saw even with the a guide does not give a clean cut"
Well, cowtown uses a dewalt circular saw with a high count blade and a shop made guide to do exactly that. But bout the only time I encounter solid boards of that width is when I've laminated em up (or else it was plywood)
I typically cut from the unseen side. Chip out is minimal, but if it ain't seen who cares, and besides the unseen side is typically where I run my rabbets, so chip outs get "chipped out" by the dado blade.
I'm also figuring that if folks use that 7 1/4" circular saw that yer pappy used to build the barn in the 50's, you know the one where you can (with the saw unplugged of course) where you can wiggle the blade in and out 1/8" they is gonna get that kinda variance in their cut. a "We sharpened the blade in 1980" kinda attitude might be another indication to rethink causes of "nasty cuts" from a procedural point of view.
No slop in the gearing, high tooth count blade, accurate guide and securely clamped, should be no problem.
Sloppy gears, cheap blade, innacurate guide floppin in the breeze, well I wouldn't expect a good cut. Nor would I expose expensive material to such risk of blotched cutting
An 8" sliding mitre saw will x-cut darn near 12". So, with an accurate cut line marked, you cut 12" and then flip the board over and cut the other 12"- that takes care of 24" of width.
A handsaw, or course sharp , has no limit to how wide a board it will cut. It would take a tad of elbow grease, but time wise, if you had a sharp handsaw at hand, it would take less time than to go to the computer and ask the question. Course, you gotta know how to use one eh?
On the table saw, without a crutch or two, x-cutting a board that wide would be askin fer trubble-particularly with a mitre gauge as the only guide, but if you made yerself an x-cut sled, unless yer trying to cut 10" off of a 16' board or something so bizarre the managability increases substantially. And if yer TS ain't been checked to ensure it's aligned correctly, even that situation won't do what you want.
You could, if none of those situations appeal to ya, use a clamped on guide and do it with a router doing it in several passes.
There it is, to the best of my abilities, normitic and neanderthal methodologies for accomplishing yer goal.
I use the circ saw and shop made guide all the time.
Eric
Hi John - Screw a piece of oak that fits the channel on the table saw to the bottom of the 24" board [ make sure its square] and cut away - accurately. No worries!!
Dan Hovanec
I use a radial arm saw.
I have a $20 circular saw guide that I use all the time. Cheap, easy to store and gives an excellent quality cut with a good blade.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=119887-1099-CG100&lpage=none
I use a jig saw with a fine blade. Perfect cuts everytime.
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