Craftsman vs Arts and Crafts vs Mission
Joe Sullivan
| Posted in General Discussion on
Friends:
Can anyone give a clear explanation of the distinctions among the Craftsman, Mission, and Arts and Crafts styles?
J
Replies
No.
It's unclear to me as well. I'm looking forward to the responses.
Regards
Ron
hey joe,
just went and saw an awesome display of the brothers greene stuff at the huntington library. according to the headings of the show it all falls under the arts and crafts style. where i live, we encounter many things mission style. i believe that back in the early twenties we, in southern california, went through the "mission revival style". calif is blessed (cursed, for the indians) with spanish, 18th century, missions. by the 20's they were all in pretty bad shape. most were "restored" in the 30's under roosevelt's new deal. this revival showed itself in dark stained, heavey,beaten iron festooned furniture. i live in a mission style house built in 1928. lumpy, textured stucco walls, inside and out with a terra-cotta half-round tile roof. these word are, of course, just my thoughts on the matter, i'm no expert. there's some pretty good furniture historians on knots, maybe they'll pipe in.
eef
Yes, the Greene's work is certainly considered Arts & Crafts, with their own personal twist. I love it. But I get lost in the definitions.
From my experience, limited as it is and other styles not withstanding (Craft/A&C), there are at least two styles of mission furniture.
The first and foremost is the least representative in current common woodworking.
Most "Mission"-the second style- in today's interpretation is closer to the G. Stickley (The Craftsman) / A&C versions or with a Scotch New Art / Chinese variation (Greene and Greene) et all ( via Popular Mechanics rendition of same - circa 1909) none of which are true mission.
Stickley's "Mission Oak Style" furniture line became the generic moniker for the furniture style. He called it that after the dense dark furniture of the original Mission furniture. It's style is Craftsman.
These styles (current) comes from design and philosophies out of post industrial northern Europe and the China Trade and the emergence of American Stick Style Architecture . Stick and Stickley were a match made in heaven. Open, light.
Enter Frank Lloyd Wright .
Whereas true Mission as it's name implies was a functional severe rectilinear style brought from Southern Europe and Spain/ Holy Roman Turkey to Brazil, Columbia- South America and later to New Mexico, early California and Northern Idaho (the farthest reach of the "penetration missions") via the Franciscans for the ease of assembly by native populations with native materials and for it's influence to meditation, for it's "weight of authority" and for it's outright utility. It may also be seen in the St. Augustine area (pre- Drake) of Florida. The Benedictines also favored it.
It's design was a combination of Francois, and renaissance Moor with a heavy nod to base form (nee frill) of 15th century renaissance Italian. It is a common type of design seen in chapels from Mount Saint Michael and Notre-Dame de Chartres, thru Paris (Cluny) to Aix and on into Tuscany and Aragon.
True Mission is devoid of frills,and curves (other than those needed to strengthen the piece against use). It's massive, flat in inspiration and uninspiring. It was meant to be pentative rather than pleasing.
All in all - more for rectories than for comfort and pleasing to the eye. Freight pallets have more charm.
I don't know if this enlightens anyone. It does get tedious. Making it ( Mission not Mission) is more enjoyable than writing about it.:)
Boiler
Edit: spelling
Edited 1/25/2009 10:45 am by boilerbay
The Arts and Crafts Style is basically the term used to describe all of the furniture and accessories that arose from the teachings of Ruskin and Morris in 19th century. As originally proposed, this was actually more than just a style; it was a philosophy and a movement. It was essentially a protest against the results of the industrial revolution, and an attempt to return to the rewards of hand craftsmanship and the abilities and talents of the individual craftsman.
This movement had proponents throughout Europe, the United States, and eventually beyond. The most well known early practitioner in the United states was Gustav Stickley. He ultimately published a magazine, The Craftsman, and this term properly refers to furniture and accessories that are done in Stickley's style. The term "Mission" was used in marketing of this style of furniture which was unornamented, often emphasized joinery with through tenons, etc., and had very rectilinear lines and heavy structural elements that emphasized sturdiness and durability.
In the United States during the first part of the 20th century, other styles and interpretations of Arts and Crafts developed. Elbert Hubbard originated the Roycroft Community in New York, a combination of an artists' colony and commercial entity. Harvey Ellis, hired by Stickley, was a designer that brought a little more lightness and sensitivity to Stickley designs. Wright and his Prairie style introduced a new aesthetic, and although pleasing to the eye, was often uncomfortable and certainly less utilitarian. Greene and Greene in California found their early inspiration in Stickley designs, but began to incorporate Asian influences and design motifs that ultimately brought a level of refinement and sensitivity to the Arts and Crafts style that many believe to be the ultimate expression of the style.
A similar evolution of Morris and Ruskins original concepts was taking place throughout Europe. Designers such as Barnsley, Mackintosh, Hoffman, and others created their own distinct variations. In Europe more than in the United States, elements of Art Nouveau and Art Deco could be seen in many designs that fell under the general heading of Arts and Crafts.
In summary, it is difficult to give precise definitions, as there are many gray areas, transitions from one style to another, and influences from design aesthetics identified with other contemporaneous styles.
For those interested in pursuing a more learned and extensive review of the Arts and Crafts movement, I would recommend The Arts and Crafts Movement in America and Europe by Wendy Kaplan, and In the Arts and Crafts Style by Barbara Mayer.
I hope this brief attempt to describe this style has been helpful.
Matt
Great synopsis of the movemnt!
That is very helpful, and as another poster has said, it is a very good synopsis indeed. Your characterization of Arts & Crafts as a movement that developed into various directions is very apt. I am well aware of some of the elements of the movement -- Ruskin and Morris (we have a nice reproduction of Morris' Kelmscott Chaucer, for example) -- the Greenes, and so on. And as with most movements as opposed to "schools" of art and design, the boundaries WILL be indistinct. For example, the linkage between Arts & Crafts and Art Nouveau is very clear in the Kelmscott illustrations.All that said, it seems at times that people mean specific things when they say, for example, "Craftsman," or "Mission," or some other subset of Arts & Crafts. Mission, in particular, as another poster mentioned, has a connotation of Spanish Franciscan influences. However, when I look at "mission" furniture today, I can't always see what's different (as opposed to, say, the Greenes, whose elements are pretty distinctive). And so, I remain somewhat in the dark.Are there elements that one would point to that would help class a given piece as belonging to one or another of the schools or offshoots of Arts & Crafts?Another question would be that if indeed the "mission" style comes from the Franciscan missions, is it really a part of the A&C movement, or rather a similar and much older style springing from a similar impulse (honesty, simplicity, function)?Joe
Joe,Your questions are good ones, and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer. Personally, when I think of "Mission" furniture, something with a Southwest influence comes to mind. Simple, robust, and with some decorative elements that that suggest American Indian as well as Spanish influence. This "style" may have actually developed independently of the Arts and Crafts movement per se, yet had characteristics in common with the furniture of the Stickley tradition.In one of the references that I referred to, the author describes how the term "Mission" was applied to Stickley style furniture in an attempt to increase its market appeal by suggesting an association with the religious zeal of the mission churches of the American southwest. The idea seemed to catch on with the American public, and therefore became essentially a synonym for Craftsman or Stickley, and remains so to this day.In the end, I'm not sure it really matters what you call it. As you pointed out, there are some styles that are quite distinctive, others not so much so. Matt
Your post #6 comes about as close to confirming everything I have read on the subject as it gets. I will add another source which I purchased after building my first Mission Coffee Table a few months ago as I got interested in Arts and Crafts and did some on-line home-work. That book which is.. Arts & Crafts.. from Classic to Contemporary.. Furniture by Kevin Rodel and Jonathan Binzen agrees with your assessment that numerous styles fall under A & C. And that it was really created thought a movement of dis-like for assembly line type production.
And interesting note is William Morris only designed 4 pieces of furniture yet his ideas were a foundation for others to go on. He owned Morris and Co. who did build them but he did not actually design the chair. He let others do the design at that company.
Some interesting stuff was revealed by doing a bit of home-work on the subject...
Sarge..
Sarge,Thank you for the kind words. I also agree with your recommendation on Kevin Rodel's book. I should have included that as well. It is perhaps a book with even more relevance to those of us who actually build, or aspire to build, Arts and Crafts styled furniture, as the author is a consummate craftsman himself, and thus has a somewhat different perspective than the historian. It is not only an informative book, but an inspirational one as well.Matt
I thoroughly enjoy it and was fortunate enough to get is at Peachtree WW down the street on sale for $22.95 I believe. I have never studied any furniture concepts and design so... I am about 37 years over-due to do just that between projects.
Unfortunately it still doesn't allow a ton of time as I finished a couple of small boxes last night and start a Mission style computer desk and hutch tomorrow with any luck. But... I do get to watch a little History Channel and read from mid-night until 2 AM as I usually finish in the shop by mid-night.
It's pretty interesting stuff really..
Sarge..
Sarge,Of architects, decorators and critics. and socialism.It's quite true about Morris's contributions. It was felt at his level of society that to actually be involved, other than at his company level was beneath his rank, although in principal he was all about the common man. One of the major driving thrusts behind the movement.
He founded the Socialist League and was a declared Marxist, but abandoned it for writing prose romances after the bloody sunday Trafalgar Square riots, in part incited by the his League's publications. He was less the architect/designer but primarily a decorator and writer. Charles Rennie Mackintosh, Lutyens were of similar ilk but they actually had to have client contact. Ruskin, although famous was, in his time primarily a critic. It is felt their role in A/C (furniture only) was one of studio, parlor conversation and grand gesture and rather than the far less esoteric role, that of commerce, which the Flemish character in Stickley seemed to demand. He meant to supply the new bourgeoisie in America with furniture. Much of the driving force in the furniture style itself came from the Barnsley brothers, Ernest Gimson, Alan Peters and Stickley - furniture makers and to a lesser degree, Macintosh and Lutyens. To this day you can see much of Macintosh's influence in the Stickley Co.'s Edinburgh line.For all the espousal and railing against the machine age and lauding the result of the singular master craftsman, the furniture made by the surviving companies is primarily machine made today. Other than finishing, almost all of the Stickley line is processed in a huge CNC factory.http://www.stickley.com/OurStickleyStory.cfm?SubPgName=FactoryTour&MoreTxt=9All in all, many controversies of the origins and reasons behind the A/C movement.Boiler
All in all, many controversies of the origins and reasons behind the A/C movement.
Boiler...
That would probably nail it.. kind of like about any other topic from my view. Right tilt.. left tilt.. hand-cut DT or machine cut.. on and on and on. Who knows is probably the real answer to accept so we can move on as in start a new computer desk tomorrow in the Mission style even though I don't live in a Mission.
Now.. how do I interrupt Mission for a computer table. Pretty much anyway I want to and if anyone ask after I build it.. I will tell them it is Mission style. If they ask why... I will just tell them I don't know for sure and go build something else.. ha.. ha... ha.. ha..ha..
Regards Doc...
Sarge..
Edited 1/26/2009 11:46 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,"Mission for a computer table"Heavy,dark and "web compliant" :-)Doc
Yeah.. what is appropriate for computers.. modern TV's.. and all the other electronic gadgetry that we have? It makes me wonder but... I'm putting the computer on a Mission style desk with an over-head hutch for putting computer related things my wife (who is retired early.. you guessed it.. computers) has.
And the first person that shows up at my house and says.. a computer desk in Mission style? .. is going to the be first person I escort to one of several exits and tell them to get the h*ll off my property. And that is that... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
And on the tomb-stone... He did it his way... without regard
Have a good day, Doc...
Sarge..
Sarge,
We are waiting for pictures!
Pete
Went to my lumber supplier yesterday. There will be a wait as I want to see if I can get QSWO fleck on all four sides of the six legs and that is going to take some experimentation in itself on pulling it off.
Regards...
Sarge..
FWIW, I'm not sure you CAN get QS rays on all 4 sides of a stick -- kinda defies the definition of the beast. A&C pieces where a 4 sides want rays are done by gluing up sticks either by laminating on two sides, or building a 4-sided post out of 4 pieces of QS.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
FWIW, I'm not sure you CAN get QS rays on all 4 sides of a stick -- kinda defies the definition of the beast. A&C pieces where a 4 sides want rays are done by gluing up sticks either by laminating on two sides, or building a 4-sided post out of 4 pieces of QS.
How I'm going to do it is simply by gluing 4 sides that have been angle cut to 45* on both edges together with a solid core of white oak or whatever in the center. Basically just like you miter the corners of a box but in this case four sides of a leg.
I saw this method on pg. 106 of Arts & Crafts Furniture.. from Classic to Contemporary. It has an illustration of how and here's what it says below the illustration.
"Quartersawn oak with it's lively flecked figure was widely used in American A & C furniture. J. G. Stickley developed a method of gluing up post from thin stock. This saved the expense of thick timbers adn created a post with quartersawn figure on all four sides'.
I wish I could post the illustration but anyway.. that's how I'm going to do it and I am going to do it. :>
Regards...
Sarge..
Yep -- that's one good way. Another is to use one stick that has rays on two sides and laminate thin stock with rays to the other two sides. Each method has its pros & cons. Whatever works in the given situation. It just sounded from your prior post that you were expecting to find one stick with rays on all 4 sides.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Unfortunately or fortunately.... I have been going to my hardwood supplier for 37 years now and have never seen QS with fleck on all sides. It migth be that it just doesn't exist unless there is "a miracle doctor with a bag of tricks in the house" to mend that. :>)
I will probably attempt solid 4 sides with 45* miters. That way when I make the taper at the bottom on the two insides... I won't risk going through the depth of just laminate exposing face grain which is what I am trying to avoid.
I am going to do one experiementally to see how tight I can rip miters. If it doesn't meet my expectations.. I will go to Plan B and then C until I derive at something. So.. going to take more time but I would love to pull this off. If I can't do it satisfactorily.. so be it.
But.. armed with the fact that those Stickley boy's pulled it off.... I'm going to also or give it my best shot. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 1/28/2009 12:15 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Didn't wanna say "never", but I think you could look for another 37 years and not find fleck on 4 sides -- it just doesn't show up on two sides 'cause the grain is oriented 90° from where it needs to be on those two sides.
You're gonna have issues if you try to taper the segmented legs. I don't recall ever seeing an A&C segmented leg that was tapered. I thought long and hard once about how to do that easily and was stumped. It would take some pretty interesting methods to get the pieces cut so the joint stayed at the corners after tapering only one adjacent face.
If you figure it out, let us know how you do it!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike you know the more I think of it I don't remember ever seeing Quadrilinear constuction on leg or posts that you could see the tops of not tapered bottoms for that matter , table legs and such yes .
dusty
That's what I'm thinking? The taper on the bottom is gentle for only 3-4 inches and will only require taking about 1/2-3/4" of end stock which will still leave fleck face grain for that side. Maybe I have missed something but I will know in a few days one way or other.
Sarge..
As Dusty stated.. the taper will only be a slight one at the bottom and on the two insides of the leg and the top will be covered by the desk top. Unless you saying something I might have missed. But.. that is one reason I am going to cut enough stock for just one to experiment with. I would feel foolish going through all the motions of enough for 6 legs and then a snake I had not encountered jumps up and bites me.
Maybe I will document with pictures as I did on another small forum I frequent with Dairy of a Chest. If it turns out to work I could post as someone might use the info. I had never thought of it until I saw it printed in that book. And I was just kidding around as No.. there is no QS with fleck on all sides unless you make it have fleck on all four sides.
Now.. with that said.. I will add your comment of "never say never" as aliens may be dropping off a shipment somewhere as we speak. :>)
Sarge..
Sarge, it's not the fleck that's the problem with tapering the 4-part legs -- it's the joint at the corners between the parts. If you taper less than all sides (or taper all 4 sides less than perfectly equally), the joint between adjacent pieces ends up off the corner -- it winds up as a visible joint line that starts at the corner at the wide end of the taper, and moves across the face of the tapered side as you head towards the narrow end.
Hard to explain, but you'll have one of those "DOH" moments as soon as you cut the taper.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike , good point , also there may be a glue joint line that shows up as well once stained when ever you slice through laminations .
d
Read post 45 I just posted to Mike as I do understand the taper line he refers to. And as far as any miter line.. well.... if the Stickley guys did it almost 100 years ago for production to the public... ask yourself why it won't work now for one individual now..?
It makes me wonder if sometimes we as WW see things that we feel are flaws that are important to avoid from a maker stand-point that the general public does not from a non-maker but... user stand-point. And I already know what the answer to that is... I believe.. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 1/29/2009 10:36 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
I do believe I understand what you refer to, Mike. But.. the question I would raise is just how noticeable will it be on the two inner faces of the legs? Keep in mind that if you just laminate two QS pieces.. two side will have normal grain as on my coffee table legs. That's pretty noticeable to me.
So far.. nobody but me that has seen that CT physically has noticed. With that said.. I am not sure that the way the miter line will angle "off" would be a point that would deter you from using a small taper at the bottom as most of the mission style had.
For that matter... I got to looking at our current computer desk last night and am not sure the Mission would be acceptable for a computer desk. The key-board having to slide in and out won't allow enough room for a front stretcher in that area. I'm not sure if that would throw that 24"-28" area out of kilter not having a stretcher as the remaining perimeter?
I will have to do some more figuring on that but may have to revert to a frame and panel style in lieu of mission? But.. even so I am still using QSWO as it's now on hand. So.. I am going to pursue making a 12" long mock leg with taper just to see how it looks. Can I get the miter lines tight over a 28 1/2" long piece? Just what will the miter line look like where the taper is cut? Questions... questions... questions...
I just don't know all the answers yet.. and if I don't try to see what the results are with my own eyes.... I won't ever truly know for sure... So.... I have a little fun and build a mock up. Time is on my side in this case as there is no dead-line that has to be met.
Sarge..
Gotcha. Send pics when you get 'em.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
This probably should get some pictures as I mentioned as it might help someone down the road that might encounter this same scenario. Maybe not but pictures only take a minute to shoot.
Sarge..
Sarge,
To get quartersawn fleck on four sides of an oak board, you must avoid lumber sawn from round trees, and get some from a tree with a rectangular trunk. Common white oak is quercus alba. What you need is squarecus alba, or right (as in angle) oak. Be sure and say I told you to ask for it at your local lumberyard.
Ray
Problem is, the Squarecus subspecies tend to be infested with angleworms...J
Ray and I are southern boys... we like to fish so the worms save us money in an economic slump. We straighten and re-use 16 penny nails also as it's part of our southern heritage.. :>)
Sarge..
I admire that. Truly sustainable forestry. You get the angle-worm infested square trees out of the woods so they can't spread, and re-use the worms to catch fish. Now, don't tell me you catch sawfish...J
Joe,
You use woodworms to catch planked shad.
Ray
Ohhhhh. Golly.J
Nah... we southern boys run trot-lines.. bait worms or dough-balls and drink Jack Daniels while we wait for cat-fish to arrive and take the bait. Sometimes alien craft arrive first and take on us on board but usually return us the the bank where we wake up and retrieve the cat-fish. Life is simple down south. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Joe,
No sawfish up here but we do catch a lot of squaretails.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Sarge,
I heard a rumor the other day that you can get straight 16 penny nails at the hardware store! Can you imagine? Who would spend good money just to get nails that are straight already? Same folks that buy bacon that's already sliced I bet.
Ray
As my dear old departed mom always said before her passing in 2005... "I wouldn't be at all surprised". We still laugh about that as she used the expression often and it covered about everything you told her that she was not aware of. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Ok... I did a mock leg today with the quad theory for QSWO to see how tight I could pull the miter lines and if the off center joint line created by tapering the two inside lines would be a big distraction that might make me change my mind. I personally didn't think so going in as the two slight lines are a better alternative than a straight glue up with two sides fleck and two sides straight grain. But.. I wanted to know for sure.
In the pictures below I used a scrap piece of 17" wide red oak left over ripped to 2 1/4" initially. I ran the miters.. did a glue up.. inserted a square core.. planed and a 120 grit - 150 grit sanding. I stopped there on purpose as that was suitable for stain just to see the results.
And keep in mind there is no fleck on the mock up as it is standard flat and rift sawn. This was strictly a test to check miter lines.. ease of assembly.. etc. etc.. before I committed QSWO. Judge for yourself if you think the miter lines are tight enough not to distract or the off-center miter line on the taper will distract. I conclude (as I suspected) it would not be a deterrent and I am going to move to the "real deal" as I want fleck on all four sides.
BTW.. I pulled this off with a 24 T flat ground rip blade that has about 3000 linear feet of ripping since the last sharpening. When I go live I will be using a new Infinity 40 T Super General with 30* ATB grind which should shear precisely on the outer edges and I do expect tighter miter lines. We shall see..
My conclusion after attempting what Stickley's factory came up with many years ago..... Draw your own!
Bless the boys... that made the noise...
In the Stickley Furniture Fac--to--ree...
Sarge..
Edited 1/30/2009 12:10 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hey Sarge,
I noticed your packing tape and then zip ties to hold the 4 angled sides together during glue up. It looks like it worked well. The joints are tight. One thing that I have used to pull the miters together that also works well after the tape phase is 3/8" surgical tubing. Wrap the first loop around itself to get a start and then spiral wrap it around to pull it tight. The glue doesn't seem to want to stick to the stretched tubing and it really pulls the joints tight. It might be worth the time to pick some up.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
I might give that a try, Bruce. I haven't until this point had any problems with simple packaging tape but... most of the miter closures I do are relatively small scale. I haven't had the call for anything long as the leg. This mock-up was only about 20" or so but the real legs will be around 28 1/2"-29" most likely.
Rarely would I use ties but I was aware that something needed to be done with that length in lieu of using a whole roll of packaging tape to completely wrap it. So... where does a dumb country boy without medical back-ground go looking for surgical tubing? It sounds like a great idea and obviously I am going to give it a try.
Again.. the tape has always worked well.. I will post a picture of a box I just made and posted in the gallery to let you see results of tape alone. But.. this is indeed a larger volume challenge and the tubing sounds solid for a solution.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge, I bought mine on Ebay, but any medical supply house will have it. I'm sure there are several in Atlanta. Brownell's Gunsmith Supply also sells it, but not in 3/8" size, only smaller. The smaller sizes will work also and might be easier to stretch and wrap. The 3/8" stuff is stout. I use the packing tape to get the miters together and then wrap the tubing around that. It really puts a clamp on it. And as Mike Hennessy says in his reply to me strips from an inner tube will work also.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Thanks... my SIL is a nurse in the emergency room at one of the hospitals here and it didn't cross my mind. I have a feeling she can procure 12-15' without much ado.
Regards...
Sarge..
"3/8" surgical tubing"
Or strips of rubber from an inner tube.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Sarge,
Southern moms...bless their hearts.
Ray
Mine and many I am familiar with could send you on a "guilt trip" in a hurry as they knew how to persuade you to do something you really didn't want to do. My mom wanted me to go to a week long church camp in the N. Georgia mountains when I was 11 years old and church camp is not my cup of tea. I'm more of go to the Okefenokee Swamp in S.E. Georgia with Boy Scouts.
Well.. I went to not break her heart as she made it appear. It took me a day to figure there schedule out. On the second day just after break-fast I slid out of formation and traversed several mountains over the course of the day looking to tangle with a black bear. I averaged about 12 - 15 miles a day traveling mountain-tops for the next week. I just am not a sit by the camp-fire singing Kum-By-Ya kind of guy. If you are going to build a camp-fire get some bacon and beans working in a big black pot while the whole pig roast slowly on a spit over-night.
When ask how I liked church camp after returning... "I had a great time, Mom". Field expediency at it's finest! Her reply was, "of course you did... I knew you would enjoy the fellow-ship". ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Southern Moms... bless their hearts....
Sarge..
Edited 1/30/2009 10:00 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
My mom had the proverbial eyes in the back of her head and, like the KGB, everywhere else. She'd have seen thru that church camp ruse of yours in a heartbeat. First day of school, in my rambunctious years, she'd accompany me to home room where she'd tell the teacher her name, mine, then, "If he misbehaves in any way, I want you to give him a whipping. Then send a note home to me, so he'll get another one when he gets off the bus."
Her solution to your running off like that would have been what she used to call " a little dose of hairbrush oil". (Dispensed from the back side of the hairbrush, transdermally.)
Ray, still ain't misbehavin'
My mom never whipped me that I can remember.. I would have to wait until my dad got home.. accompany him to the outside bush where he broke off a switch.. ran it through his hand to get the leaves off... and then you know the rest.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
My dad only ever spanked me once, (for sassing him) with his leather work glove. But I still have this image preserved of my grandma coming across the yard at me, stripping the leaves off that willow switch she'd pulled from the tree in the back of her house. "Don't" switch!, "you", switch! "ever", switch! "leave", switch! "this", switch! "yard" switch! "again!"
It was the only time she ever lifted a finger to discipline me. But I'd wandered off from her yard, while in her care, and it scared her no end. I never understood her extreme reaction til I'd lost a child of my own. She'd lost three sons in WWII, and I can only imagine what went thru her head when she briefly thought I might be gone too.
Ray
My great aunt Beulah was a little, old school teacher who weighed about 90 pounds soaking wet. She was the old-school type teacher you don't see these days with the ridiculous polices set forth for discipline. She came to substitute teach one day after she retired. I suppose she was about 70 at the time. I thought I would have it made being in her class that day.
I was known for talking.. standing and cracking cute one liners. The first time I opened my mouth which was disruptive... she walked up to me... grabbed my ear and lifted me out of my desk.. pulled me to the front of the class.. got out the oak paddle with holes drilled to produce more paddle speed on the down-stroke.... and whupped my *ss good. I didn't say another word the entire day.
And of course.. my dad whupped my *ss when I got home as that was standard procedure between teachers and parents. No investigations.. no warnings.. no questioning the motive.. no bull-sh*t period... just trust between adult parents and their respect for teachers that if there child was whipped... he deserved to be and frankly... we did. :>)
Sarge.
Edited 1/30/2009 3:16 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I always thought the holes were drilled into the paddle so that they would whistle on the "down" stroke and make the whole experience more memorable. In my little school in West Virginia the paddling was done by the Principal in his office. 1, 3 or 6 licks depending on the severity of the offense. This was done over the intercom so that all the other boys in the school could learn from the offender's transgression. Every boy who made the trip knew the punishment was to be taken in silence. . .otherwise you would lose face with the other guys.BTW, if you poured a bottle of India ink over another student's head it was worth the full 6 licks. It was also worth a whuppin' behind the gym every morning from the kid who had his head scrubbed with lye soap the night before. Said whuppins continued until the ink was gone! I decided not to do that again!Regards,Ron
Edited 2/1/2009 7:19 pm ET by RonInOttawa
Whistling in only a side effect created by drilling to lessen air drag. The whistle sound can be construed by the "whippee" as a memorable moment if they wish.. but it is interrupted by the "whipper" that air is getting through the holes and the paddle has increased to maximum speed to perform the assigned task. And if by chance you heard a loud "bang" the "whippee" has just broken the sound barrier with paddle swing-force.
At our school.. you got it in the class-room then went to the principals office for more.. he called your parents and you got it again when you got home. Sort of a 3 dimension type thing I suppose you could say. And 6 strokes at my school would be like the time when I was in Second Grade and stood atop the sliding board with the lovely Ms. S Pattillo in front of me slated to go before me.
In those days girls had to wear dresses and if you sat down to slide from the top the sliding board.. the dress would flare out rearward over the flat seat area before the actual slide which it stayed flared out over the edges of the rails on the way down.
Well.. not if someone put their foot on the back of the dress on the flat area and then stood on the back of the dress as the slide was actually initiated. It created an effect of the dress staying at the top and the young laddie going down the board in her undies.
Now for anyone that would get you 6 strokes plus from at least 3 sources... a apology to the girl and a apology to her parents along with basically an apology to the entire grammar school at the next assembly in the auditorium with many parents attending.
About all the punishment you could get short of being put on the Georgia Chain Gang with leg irons busting rock in the Buford Facility Granite Quarry. And the only reason you wouldn't get that sentenced is Georgia had a law to keep minors off the chain gang.
Now of course... that is just a hypothetical situation and could never happen as nobody could be that mischievous. Just an idea of what foul deeds could get you maximum punishment. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :>)
Sarge..
Sounds like you and ole Sarge are suffering from OFS. Did you guys really work for Gustav Stickley?
wood,
Sarge's aunt Beulah taught lil Gus Stickley everything he needed to know, in the 2d grade.
Ray
HA! Just as I suspected. You and ole Sarge hang out there in my OFS age bracket.
They keep sending those ARRP cards by "mistake" to my house. BTW, Ray is the younger, ugly one.. I am the slightly older, prettier one. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 2/1/2009 10:42 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 2/1/2009 10:42 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
"I am the slightly older, prettier one. :>)"
'member the line about the gal in "My Old Kentucky home"?
My sister Sue, she's short and stout; She didn't grow up--she grew out.
Mama says she's plain, she's just bein' kind; Papa thinks she purty, but he's almost blind.
She don't go out much, 'cept at nite, but I don't care, 'cause I'm all right.
Oh, the sun shines bright, etc, etc.
It wasn't Papa tole you that you were the purty one, now was it?
Haha
Ray, the plain one
Nah.. papa died suddenly when I was 12 and at that point I could have cared less if I was pur-tee or whatever. I was having fun roaming the woods which have since been replaced with housing and businesses unfortunately. Now of course there has never been a southern mom that didn't think there child was beautiful regardless of how ugly they really were. :>)
But.. the truth is I was simply pulling a propoganda tactic out of my "stealth bag of tricks" I was taught and were honed in Vietnam. And I knew it would give you a chuckle so obviously I pulled out and used the correct one in this case. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards from down the road a-piece....
Sarge..
OK Sarge,
You get to be the pretty one. I know when I've been bested.
Y'all take it easy, now.
Ray
It's all in the mind and how it wants to handle it... :>)
Sarge..
"""To get quartersawn fleck on four sides of an oak board, you must avoid lumber sawn from round trees, and get some from a tree with a rectangular trunk.""""Ray,I had a bunch o' them square oaks growing on my lot. Darn nuisance they were cuz the bark kept braking off at the corners. I decided to cut them all down, then I chucked the logs up in my lathe and turned em into round fence posts.Come spring I'm planting plywood trees where the oaks were. Seems like those narrow sheets might be susceptible to a wind storm, but if I can just get em to 8 feet I'll be happy.Jerry
And now you inform me.... you dog. I just got through mocking a leg with 4 pieces and 8 45* miter rips... glue up with package tape a tie straps... and filled the 1/2" x 1/2' empty center core with a no other than 1/2" x 1/2" piece of oak to give me a solid post. And I took photo's of each step to boot.
I was going to plane all four sides latter to-night and run a taper to see how the miter line angle shapes up on the two inside taper lines. Thank God you told me about the square trunk trees to save those "need-less" steps.
I'll just run out tomorrow to several Atlanta suppliers... tell them Ray Pine told me to mention his name and simply ask for QSWO from a square trunk. So simple just to bring it home and rip to size to avoid all those ridiculous wasted steps of prep. I suppose that's what I get for not getting out much and seeking the finer things through progress that can make life so much easier.
Then again... mama didn't raise a fool, you dog you. ha..ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge ,
There are so many ways to do the same thing , lucky for us . They used a lock miter joint for the real deal quadrilinear method and a core material .
The leg or post size being smaller may be different to cut this way and still have much center .
I have made 4 sided QS legs by rabetting two pieces and leaving perhaps 3/16" of wood , if you are careful with the color match the seam will disappear especially with Oak and if you try and cut them from the same board it can help .
good luck and have fun
dusty
The lock miter method is what I have illustrated in the book, Dusty. And probably how I will make an attempt to tackle it. I didn't mention the lock miter as to not to confuse anyone reading this. But.. if I run into major resistance.. I might try your method or the lamination.
I figure I am going to experiment with one leg long enough to come up with a viable method for all 6 legs. If it takes several days.. a week.. a month it won't matter as I am in no hurry as I am also thinking of taking a part time job in the near future to off-set the current economy.
Whatever will be.. will be.....
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,I seem to remember reading somewhere that one way to achieve an equal amount of fleck on all faces is to use a piece of wood that is close to a perfect radial cut (45 degrees)rather than flatsawn or quartersawn. The fleck is more muted than quartersawn but it's still visible. I've never tried it, but thought I might pass it on as "Plan Z" if none of your other attempts work out.They didn't cover this kind of stuff in the Blue Jackets Manual!Good luck,Ron
I do have some I just picked up that will fit that description. It was raining and I had to cover it with a tarp in the back of my truck... but it should be dry and acclimated in a few days. The stock I am going to experiment with has already acclimated as I had it on hand.
So.. Plan Z or Zebra is an option also... can't have too many escape routes as I see it so.... thanks for the thought.
Sarge..
Sarge,Do I understand correctly that you plan to miter 4 pieces for each leg and then cut a taper near the bottom on two sides? If so, perhaps you have not considered that when you cut the tapers, the miter joints won't come together correctly at the new corners of the legs. If you were to taper all four sides exactly the same this would not be a problem. But if you taper two sides you will have two bad corners.Perhaps I merely misunderstand what your plan is and if so, my apologies.Jerry
You did interrupt that correctly. I will be doing a dry run on scrap in the next few days so I will know the outcome of what you mentioned. I intend to use 2" wide 3/4" strips on each of the 4 sides. That will allow planing down to around 1 7/8' or 1 3/4".
The 45* miter line will therefore be 3/4" deep through the mitered corner with a square core in the center. And the taper will be cut at about 12* -15* for 3 1/2 - 4" approximately as I am not final yet. But to cut the taper it will start about 1/2' in from the outside lip. In my mind it at 15* the blade will not penetrate into the square core center which lies beneath the 3/4" outer fleck pieces of white oak in the center of the laminated leg.
Not sure at this point what the miter lines will look like but again... I will know in a few days..
Edited 1/28/2009 8:08 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Check out this: http://www.hoganhardwoods.com/hogan/pages/technical/Technical_01/lumbersawing_01.htm
There is good information about quartered lumber.
Mike is right,though. The Arts and Crafters out there who want the rays on all four sides HAVE to piece them together to get the look. It's called 'quadralinear' leg construction. Veneering two faces is also a good method to achieve that look.Edited 1/27/2009 4:12 pm by doorboy
Edited 1/27/2009 4:13 pm by doorboy
See the post I just made to Mike, doorboy. It will contain exactly what you stated more or less with a little thrown it to boot.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,Maybe you could add some Greene and Greene cloud lifts---It would make it lighter - celestial- floating... you know...for when your going wireless...Post pics soonest.take care Sarge,Doc
I wish I could go wireless. I can't stand all the wires "she" has behind the back as I can see many of them on the floor. I'm considering building a trought in the rear to get them off the floor and out of view. :>)
Sarge..
Wooden frames for the monitor and keyboard might minimize the loss of (former) friends. ;-)
No sweat on that one Ralph... I don't have any friends other than the IRS agents who must love me as they show up often... very often. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
OK, now I know all about Mission and A&C.
But when did the IKEA style begin?
Is the IKEA movement the biggest ever in the furniture world?I heard that the IKEA movement was started by a guy trying to figure out how to increase MDF sales.All seriousness aside, designing IKEA furniture is not trivial. Can you imaging trying to design furniture that-
- can be manufactured so cheaply that it can be transported across the globe and still sell cheaper than the cheapest locally made stuff
- is easy to package and transport
- people will actually buy.My wife and I have one pair of IKEA bookshelves. She didn't want to wait for me to build them. I am not much on IKEA furniture, but I am blown over at how much of that stuff they sell. You gotta give them credit. THey understand how to make money in the furniture trade better than most of us here on Knots. Have fun.
MelMelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The world has changed, Mel. MDF.. pocket screw.. dowel jig sales reps may have played a large part in the popularity and acceptance of IKEA. But.. I think the biggest "player" is the current crop of furniture purchasers who's time is just to valuable to stop and smell the roses as we possibly once did.
They are constantly in their vehicles going well.. nowhere really. They have a cell phone glued to their ear carrying on what they deem an important conversation about well.. nothing really. When it comes time to decide on a piece of furniture.. just pick up the cheapest at a place that is very convenient and has fast check out lines. Too busy to spend any time comparing. You can replace it cheaply enough when it falls apart.
Save the real work of product comaparison.. shopping for the best price.. and verifying quality for electronic gadgets which are essential to everyday existence and well being. Values have changed. So give IKEA credit where credit is due.. They saw the need and filled it.. simple as that. That is what any successful business must do to get an edge on the competitors.
I am having some fun which I actually have time for as I suppose my priority rating system is a bit old fashioned. I may be one of the few who can contact anyone I need to contact with my "Dixie cups and string" after the string has been coated with bee's wax to carry sound signals better.
What is a "black-berry" anyway... I only recently found out when there was much talk of President Obama having one and he might possibly have to give it up for security purposes. What a sad day for America really.... :>)
Sarge..
Edited 1/31/2009 9:34 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Well the furniture values of others may have changed, but I too am back in an earlier age. I just bought a half set of Hollows and Rounds. Going to make mouldings and carve them. Almost impossible to get the appropriate molding shapes out of a router or from the stores, so I will learn to use the H&Rs to make my own. It should be an adventure.
Have fun.
Mel the Semi-GalootMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sarge,
Your posts often jibe with mine own predelictions and attitudes and here is another concerning the rushy-phoner people.
There's a rule in our house which goes, "If your mobile-annoyer makes an appearance in here, it will be lump-hammered". Folk protest and claim they "need" to have it on, making it's usually clamorous "ring" (a terrible old pop-tune or "humorous" shriek); and that they need to ignore you suddenly if it demands they clag it on their ear and jabber pointlessly. Ah ha! The rules is the rules and there is the lump hammer, which just loves to crush expensive snappy-tinkly things!
However, your explanation concerning the taste for things-IKEA is not the whole story, I feel. Even normally calm and considerative folk flock in droves to IKEA. Indeed, they will pore over the cataogue for hours making their choices then have a day-out filling the virtual trolley. What is going on there?
My own theory is that the simple and clean-blonde aspect currently has a mass aesthetic appeal, especially when items exhibiting those attributes can be got cheap and in matching sets. Modern life is complicated and fraught. Cool, plain surfaces are a palliative perhaps; hence the white boxes with featureless IKEA items dotted here and there.
And when you look at "contemporary" furniture, a lot of it looks rather like elaborated IKEA - clean lines, pale blonde but with added swoop, loud-grain bits and other additions that cry "posh". After all, if they have paid for a designer piece, one attribute required by the proud owner is some form of explicit "I was expensive" sign on the thing to impress the other strivers on the greasy pole.
Also, despite we furniture makers being agin the idea, modern folk like to consume-throwaway; consume-throwaway in a cycles familiar to all fashion victims everywhere. Thus "cheap" is important to those with limited funds. But one also wonders where all the expensive contemporary stuff goes when the better-off buyers decide they too need a fashion-fix.................
******
As to A&C - it's really a term invented by taxonomically-minded historians who like to shove everything into classes, hierarchies and trees. Of course, there are some relationships between the various styles and modes covered by the current A&C classification....... But there are a huge number of these styles - far more than Mission, Roycroft and similar - shoved arbitrarily into "Arts & Crafts".
Sometimes it's a convenience to talk about such categories as A&C or Mission, to establish the subject of a conversation for example. But at bottom, each piece of furniture is what it is, so why bother to classify it at all? I just look at the pictures and try to find out the design-influences that informed the maker, preferably from the maker hisself via his writings or other commentary.
In March I'm off to visit Cheltenham Museum, which is stuffed with A&C pieces. There are some common themes across the pieces but most are extremely individual and more unlike other items in the collection than they are alike.
Lataxe, wary of pidgeon-holers, as he is not any kind of pidgeon.
"Sometimes it's a convenience to talk about such categories as A&C or Mission, to establish the subject of a conversation for example. But at bottom, each piece of furniture is what it is, so why bother to classify it at all? I just look at the pictures and try to find out the design-influences that informed the maker, preferably from the maker himself via his writings or other commentary.
In March I'm off to visit Cheltenham Museum, which is stuffed with A&C pieces. There are some common themes across the pieces but most are extremely individual and more unlike other items in the collection than they are alike"... Lataxe
***
I would say that about sum's it up. Here is the original question posted by the OP...
Friends:
"Can anyone give a clear explanation of the distinctions among the Craftsman, Mission, and Arts and Crafts styles"?... Joe
***
The answer is No.. and it was during the entire 83 post and soon to be 84. I got involved because I wanted to mention a book I have that basically agrees with
Sometimes it's a convenience to talk about such categories as A&C or Mission, to establish the subject of a conversation for example. But at bottom, each piece of furniture is what it is, so why bother to classify it at all? I just look at the pictures and try to find out the design-influences that informed the maker, preferably from the maker himself via his writings or other commentary.
In March I'm off to visit Cheltenham Museum, which is stuffed with A&C pieces. "There are some common themes across the pieces but most are extremely individual and more unlike other items in the collection than they are alike".. Lataxe
I don't even want to go back to count how many post I made when I really only wanted to convey the name of a book. But somewhere I mentioned I was going to build a Mission computer hutch and here I am posting post 84. It falls back to "Sometimes it's a convenience to talk about such categories as A & C or Mission, to establish the subject of conversation".. Lataxe...
So.. after giving the subject careful thought for several days... I am going to retract that statement and issue a new one which will sum up what I am going to do. This will take the guess-work and confusion out of the picture.
I am going to build a computer desk and hutch which will have a base similar to a Gustav Stickley side board I saw. But there will be no center sections of drawers as that will be replaced with an open area you can slide your legs and knees under while sitting in a chair facing a computer.
And the legs will taper on the two insides on the four outer-most legs and on three sides on the 4 inner legs. They will have fleck on all four sides as the standard L & JG Stickley Co. fare which still exist today with factories in N.Y. .. N. Carolina and Vietnam done similar to their method but without the use of a shaper.
The hutch on top will contain elements of Liberty & Co. owned by Arthur Lasenby Liberty but none of the Glasgow style.. and mission slats used by American designers from borrowed ideas from California Missions. And a few concepts of Barnsley.. Roper and a host of others.
The desk and hutch will be tauted as the "Sarge style" which are borrowed ideas from others from the past with modifications and original elements of addition to conform to life-style and use at the Thompson house-hold in their humble bungalow in the foot-hills of the Appalachian Mountains.
There you have it... life is once again returned to normalcy with the simple distinction of "in the Sarge style". Mission or A & C is not really correct and should have never been used as one cannot truly define A & C as it is a mix of many ideas from many people during a time of movement in design in the furniture industry with many contributing but no lone design principle was adapted nor any true lines towed.
So.. with no further ado or conversation.... I will commence on a computer desk and hutch @ 12:01 PM EST on February 1. The time to talk about it has lapsed and the time to build has leaped suddenly on the fore-front. The wood is ready.. the heater has made the shop temperature ready... the tools are ready...
They are just there waiting on me and now I am ready and time is definitely wasting... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Edited 2/1/2009 10:48 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Excellent post, old man! This has been quite an informative thread.
I can now return to building my version of Stickley's A Mans's Dressing Cabinet. The style is Contemporary Nazard, of origin peculiar to the western portion of Richmond, Va.
-Jerry
Note the absence of any reference what-so-ever to the Super Bowl in my post....<gr>
And I am sure it will serve you and family quite well in the W. Richmond area. That's keeping things simple as they should be. :>)
I'm not watching (I might glance occasionally) as I am re-sawing QSWO for laminate. Legs have been rough sized and it'll get glue tomorrow. My wife will be watching as she is from the Pittsburgh area and a fan of said team. You know... the one with the young QB that doesn't know which direction to point his baseball cap when sitting on the side-lines looking like an idiot as the rest of the young QB's that turn their baseball cap back-erds... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Sarge - ya "recon?" sounds like it..
Ikea - ya all got married and needed to have Stuff (you need to stow) there are allot of folks out there "on the cheap" I was one.. Now I am replacing. Rooms to go? anyone? You don't have the "jack" to pay for stuff till you do.. no use complaining about it.. think of when we were all 20 or so getting married... and how much loot we had for our dreams? You appreciate the good stuff or want to make your own as you age... BTW Sarge there is also another "router solution" that is offered in the FFW "in the craftsman style" book that may help make your legs tighter and may not require ya to core them..Capt. Rich Clark
--DUCT Tape is the "force"... It has a Light side and a Dark side and it binds the universe together
Was LRRP until Jan. of 69 in VN when the 75th Ranger Reg. was re-activated and is still around from that point forward. "P" Co. up on the DMZ attached to 3rd Marine Div. head-quartered at Quang Tri Fire-base. ETA'ed in 69 and went home to pursue other things.
I was really not complaining about IKEA as that was brought up by Mel. I just inserted my opinion of their furniture in general. I have been there and done that as when I was single after VN I lived on potatoes.. onions.. Spam.. bacon.. fried egg sandwiches and macaroni & cheese for months at a time often.
But... when I got married at age 25 I did start building my own furniture with my trusty TS (circular under a 2 x 4 sheet of ply).. hand drill.. a few chisels and a sanding block. That would not interest many probably and the IKEA was not around in the early 70's.
I'm going with what I did with the exception of I re-sawed my 15/16 QSWO today into 1/4" veneer to laminate to standard red oak which I have plenty sitting around. That will save QSWO as there is a lot of stock involved with solid legs in this case as there will be 8 of them. The way L & J.G. Stickley did it with a shaper is the ticket but.. I don't have a shaper nor the correct bit.
I feel confident after the mock up so... you do what you feel comfy with. There probably are better or at least as good alternatives. But.. when you catch a fish on a particular lure.. that becomes the favorite until you have a run of bad luck and find another one.
BTW.. I ruled out duct tape as it sometimes will leave a sticky residue on the surface that you have to take the time to acetone off. I use duct tape by the case and when I break the last case on hanf open.. it get's re-ordered immediately. Duct tape was a god-send in VN and that theory carried over from there for me.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 2/1/2009 7:59 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 2/1/2009 8:02 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
LRRP Huh? I think I will stay out of your way, even if you are an old fart like me
I am a gentle man now but... have a concealed weapons permit and do carry a .45 Auto just in case you encounter someone who is not a gentle man. You just never know these days as I can remember times when we didn't bother to lock the door at home at night. Those times have changed.
Off to pick up core material for veneer... armed but not dangerous unless it it necessary to be dangerous. Let's hope that never happens but reality is reality.
Sarge..
I hope I am never forced to lose my gentleness either, but for me it's a S&W 4516 (small hands). Always hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Thanks for your service, we all appreciate it.
Lataxe:Since my original post I have read quite a bit, including some key bits of Ruskin and Morris, a couple of picture heavy books on the topic, and of course all of these posts.While you are obviously right that there are lots of different styles and even craft that come under the overall A&C category, I disagree that it is irrelevant. There was a distinct A&C movement that inspired all of those styles and some today -- and I am not just talking about today's derivatives like the lovely table I read an article about on another web site a couple of years ago. It was made by a countryman of yours name of Trusty, if I recall correctly. He described it as being of the Green & Green style. Most people knew what he meant or could quickly look it up.Taxonomies are necessary unless we want to describe everything from scratch and have no frame of reference for comparison of one to another in less that complete detail or good and plentiful photographs. However, with movements like A&C, we have more than mere taxonomies. We have philosophies that lead to schools and styles that would not otherwise exits. To understand the style, one must at least be aware of the philosophy.All that aside, I really wanted to know what was in the name. Your point is that by any name, it would look as sweet. I agree, but wish to understand more.Cheers!J
Joe,
Good point you make - there were certainly some clear instigators for a certain kind of approach to manufacture, with a central theme of "good quality comes from skilful craftsmen". Also, there are a number of very distinct styles that share some common themes such as exposed joinery and function-first design. However.....
The history of the various design pardigms that seem to be included in the various A&C books is very variable and have lots of different sources or traditions behind them. Whilst it's easy to see that Mission, Roycroft and even G&G share some traits, when I look at a book like John Andrew's "A&C Furniture", it seems that the number and variety of styles is huge.
Exposed joinery and function-first are not evident in many of these pieces, including a number of the vastly over-decorated, mock-medieval designs associated with Morris et al. Frank Lloyd Wright and Mackintosh dining chairs look to be made for anything but the utility of comfort . So why are they all nominated as A&C? And why is Shaker not A&C? It often seems to me to meet the philosophy better than any other "official" A&C maker.
You might say that the makers followed the A&C philosophy. But virtually all of the Big A&C Players found that the idea of a single artisan sitting in his back room designing and manufacturing furniture to a saleable price was unattainable. Most of the major styles of A&C were made in factories using production-line methods. The A&C tag was as much a marketing ploy as a reflection of any philosophy.
Where individual artisans or small groups of them did follow the philosophy, the furniture was so expensive (of their time and therefore in price) that only the very well-off could afford it.
So, whilst we can certainly identify well-integrated design styles such as G&G, Roycroft and so forth, when we ask, "What is added to the meaning of the style by nominating it A&C" the answer is often, "Not much".
And consider, if the definition of A&C is something to do with the philosophy of single person/small team designing and producing furniture to a high standard, then virtually all the stuff made by contemporary designer/makers, as well as the stuff made by thee and me, must be included in the A&C domain. It meets the philosophical prerequisits. But that covers a lot of very variable furniture. Calling it A&C doesn't really tell us anything more about it.
Lataxe, jousting with a semantic-stick
Well, yes. That's why I was confused in the first place. I suppose we generally agree...with differences.Actually, the accepted wisdom is that Stickley was strongly influenced by Ruskin and Morris, but that as the US didn't have its own medieval traditions, he just went with clean honest lines. So far so good. But, to your own point, the question is begged as to where A&C leaves off and other Gothic Revival forms begin. Or, maybe we should follow your advice a few posts ago and drop the question?Joe
Edited 2/2/2009 2:19 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Sarge,
the heater has made the shop temperature ready
Oh, what was it, 50*F? Too cold for shorts, eh?
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I find 50* much too uncomfortable (brrrrrrrrrr...) to work in a long sleeved T-shirt when the alternative is it takes 15 minutes for my natural gas space heater to raise it to 68* which is perfect for we southern folks accustomed to not having to shovel snow from our driveway.
As you may... or may not know.. all that art nouveau stuff got started by accident in the more harsh.. colder climate areas. They were actually making an attempt to hold a straight line with their tools but.. they were shivering so much it just led to odd and wavy final results. In lieu of move to a more moderate climate.. they just called it art nouveau and declared it the new rage when it was really another cover-up to disguise the real intent. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 2/2/2009 7:14 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Yes but don't you get those nasty wind storms? I remember long ago trying to out run a storm.. I was in Brainbridge? at the time.. Car was blown off the road! Nothing hurt except my car and my 'so called' driving skills!
20-35 mph just last Saturday.. I spent Sunday with a chain-saw cleaning up the two dead hard-woods that fell in my yard that were on the neighbors property. I ask him to have them taken down as one came within 16" of my back two story deck.
I knew it would eventually fall and was hoping it broke off high. There is a live tree touching beside it. High would miss barely from my calculations by about 2'. Low would cause the dead tree to move angle because of the live tree touching it and hit the deck.
It broke off at approximately 14' up and missed by 16". Unfortunately you can only ask someone to take one down on their property. If they don't you simply have to mail them a certified letter asking and get a snap-shot for your home-owners insurance as even though it is on their property and falls on yours... your home-owners is liable and not theirs.
Now.. that makes sense, huh?.... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Law-makers.... grrrrrrrrrrr
Sarge..
Edited 2/3/2009 12:28 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
One thing that recurs in both the writings of the Stickleys and Roycroft is the concept that the designs were supposed to be honest, simple, devoid of decoration, and, most importantly to us, able to be built by any citizen. Consequently, straightforward joinery, straight lines, and the use of cushions or rush to add comfort to the flat surfaces.
The irony of all this is that the furniture was decided as something all citizens could do to improve their own environment. However, the expanding middle class bought it instead of built it. Take some pride when you do make this furniture - you are fulfilling their dream as well as yours.
Joe and All ,
Some wonderful insight and information has been shared and discovered in this thread imo and I am appreciative of the more articulate .
I will add more to your questions of Craftsman or Mission . The homes built in the Craftsman era here in the West anyways were primarily built between 1905 and approx 1915 and followed the frou frou laden Victorian era .So in reality the term Craftsman can be interpreted as a style or an era and some confusion certainly occurs .At that time there was no furniture called Craftsman style to my knowledge yet it evolved from the homes and the need for simple sturdy .
The term Mission as has aptly been discussed is an era and a style as well also . Each has it's own versions and interpretations as example Harvey Ellis had a strong influence on the Stickley line for the few years he worked with them .
Shaker / Mission / Craftsman the look to many is similar the elements of each style show the makers individual influence and dedication to details .
regards dusty
Yes, all were reformations OR religious in impulse or both. In fact, as of yesterday, I have started doing more reading on the topic. It seems, although I don't know much more than what I am going to say here, that Wm. Morris was a Socialist as well, but was clearly to a large extent, also a Romantic. He hearkened back to a pre-industrial, pre-Renaissance world that was to his mind, more simple and pure (in reality, it was not, but he thought it was). That is possibly why the furniture that grew out of his movement was oak(a bit of conjecture here). It is sturdy, had been consigned to lesser duty, and for a long while in the pre-industrial, pre-Renaissance world was the primary furniture wood (the so-called "Age of Oak").Regardless of his thoughts about things that could be built by "the people," and the decoration of ordinary objects, he was also on an almost heedless quest for the ideal. the culmination of his career was an exhausting multi-year effort to create the "ideal book," the Kelmscott Chaucer. I misspelled Kelmscott in earlier posts, BTW. It is a full folio in size, and has scores of elaborate borders all created by Morris, and illustrations created by another. These were then engraved in wood. The 425 copies were exceedingly expensive when published. He died soon after it was printed.It is interesting to see that Morris' own graphic and textile designs are very elaborate and "busy."Anyway, I am merely reporting on what I have recently learned, so can't add more for now.
Thanks for that. I enjoyed the tracing back to Europe. Next time I am there I will keep an eye out for these things.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
In the biography of G. Stickley it tells an interesting story of the origin of the TERM "Mission" furniture. Arts and Crafts is a large segment filled with many subsets of furniture such as Prarie ( F.L. Wright) and the Greene Bros blend of oriental and American styles with the use of mahogany instead of the QSWO of the G Stickley and the Stickley Bros. They all spring from the Morris roots in England with the desire for simpler and "honest" furniture forms. G. Stickley was a major proponent of this movement as were many others. I'm not sure that there is one "clear" explanation of this popular group of designs. We are hard pressed to give a simple and concise exlanation, but we know the style when we see it. There are lots of good wriiten sources on the subject, including a great online resource for the Greene Bros work. Just Google Arts and Crafts furniture, or specifically Greene and Greene and a whole world of resources will unfold for you. Enjoy!!
I think is like a womam trying on dresses. All look perfect to a Man but NOT to her!
Joe,
One of the best books on the topic is "Arts and Crafts Furniture by Kevin Rodel and Jonathan Binzen. https://www.betterworld.com/Arts-and-Crafts-Furniture-id-1561583596.aspx. This book changed my philosophy of working with wood, as it deals with factory made furniture and the revolt against it. A much more enjoyable and comprehensible read than a David Pye book.
It explains that Craftsman was Gustav Stickley's line of furniture. Only furniture made my Stickley can really be called Craftsman.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hmmm. That's interesting. I didn't know that Stickley had that as a trade name.J
It was also the name of his magazine, his farm and his building in NYC<!----><!----><!---->
According to 'The Furniture of Gustav Stickley' by Bavarro, the term "Craftsman Furniture" belonged to Stickley and the term "mission furniture" was invented by a salesman because to him it was reminiscent of the primitive styles of the California missions. That term stuck and we are still using it today.
I believe some of his later catalogs informed the buyer that if the furniture did not say 'Craftsman' then it was of an inferior quality--an imitation.
Edited 1/29/2009 6:02 pm by doorboy
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