Greetings and Happy New Year. I recently picked up a copy of John White’s machinery maintenance book, which is pretty good for those of us who don’t know much about such things. The chapter on table saws, though, is what caught me. The good Mr. White seems to think that contractor’s saws aren’t worth the cast iron they are made of. Obviously, you can’t expect Unisaw performance from a contractor’s saw, but, come on, does every woodworker need a cabinet saw? I suppose if I was doing heavy work day in and out, then yes, but even the serious hobbyist/semi-pro would be hurtling toward overkill if they outfitted their shop with one.
What do y’all think? Am I way off base? Are contractor’s saws really worthless (s)crap?
Replies
Herb, I don't think that EVERY woodworker needs a cabinet saw either, but there are many huge advantages to using a cabinet saw over a contractor saw. Not only is the typical cabinet saw of higher quality and able to withstand heavier duty usage, it is also of higher precision than its smaller counterpart. This allows the user to produce cleaner, more easily reproduced and reliable cuts. Equally nice is the fact that after you first tune a cabinet saw it typically requires far fewer tunings to keep it in good shape, a tremendous time-saver! With the typical contractor saw you would do good to use it for more than a couple of dozen board feet before it needs to be tweaked/ tuned. Just my thought on the matter.
With the typical contractor saw you would do good to use it for more than a couple of dozen board feet before it needs to be tweaked/ tuned..........My twenty year old Grizzly contractors saw begs to differ.
With the typical contractor saw you would do good to use it for more than a couple of dozen board feet before it needs to be tweaked/ tuned. Just my thought on the matter.
How or where did you ever get this idea?
Both my Dad who has had a contractors saw since 1957 & used it for a cabinet business & finish work for windows & doors,& my saw which I've had since 1997 Have performed with no problems. Dads saw cost $60 with no motor or stand. Mine cost $800 with motor & stand. Both are 10".
If I had the board feet of material run through Dad's saw I may be able to fill your shop full & probably bury it in hard wood & sheet goods. I am sure if it gave him the problems you are talking about he would have gotten rid of it long ago.
Maybe your talking about the cheapest contractors saw you could possibly purchase, if this is so I would agree with you, but not the more expensive models. If one was to purchase the cheaper contractors saw you would have to accept this fact & suffer with it. You get what you pay for.
Herb,
I never used a contractor saw...I went from a $99 table top to a cabinet saw....and I'd do it again in a NY second. I don't believe there is a huge difference between the two....too many people are happy with their contractor saw. With this hobby, surprisingly, the heavy iron is the cheap part of the expense...why would I save a few bucks there, always wonder if I shoudda... Besides, comparing the Delta Contractor saw with the Grizzly there is no price difference.
Herb,
There are some excellent contractor saws on the market today. Having said that, the better built contractor saws now cost close to or as much as a cabinet saw from some manufacturers. Delta makes a great job(or contractors) saw. I think you could use it with some regularity between tune ups as well. However, the 1023 Grizzly model cabinet saw is roughly the same price and weighs in at 400+ pounds giving you more stability, less vibration and more power. I feel as though people should purchase the best tools they can buy that will serve their needs. Not get caught up in buying based on what others feel is the best out there. I need to buy the best I can afford that suits my discipline of woodworking. If you feel that a contractors saw will fill the bill for you then that is the saw you should purchase. My table saw is my workhorse so that is where I spent my money.
JB
If you can plant the saw in one place and don't move much get a cabinet saw-if you got the bucks. I've had several Delta Contractor saws and have been perfectly happy with thier performance. With a Biesmeyer or similar fence, a properly tuned saw sawing 3/4 or 4/4 boards you'll not notice a difference. If you start using larger pieces of wood and sawing hundreds of feet per day you'll appreciatte the "Unisaw"appraoch. That being said I regularly rip 8/4 white oak with only slight hesitation on the saws part, the results are exactly what you'd get from cabinet saw.
I'm still tweaking my current CS (bad blade made it tough) but I've tuned and seen these Delta saws tuned and stay tuned for years.
HTH
N
My Rockwell 10" Contractors saw is about 35 years old and I've almost worn the frazzle out of it. Have replaced the bearings in it twice.
Unfortunately, in these past many years, competition has had a negative effect on these kind of tools. While competition has held the cost down, I'm afraid it has had a very negative effect on quality.
And, I think the cost gap between these tools and high quality tools has been getting wider.
Do you want low cost and low quality, or, high cost and high quality? There don't seem to be much middle ground here.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Having owned a contractors saw that wasn't worth keeping, (and a cheap table top that was) and now owning a 12 inch cabinet saw, I question the purchase of one at all..
In my mind you buy a skill saw and a straight edge, a decent band saw and a jointer.. with those you can do most any cutting you need and make just about whatever you want. The next purchase should be a 12" compound miter saw. only after you've bought the lathe and etc. do you then get a saw that is only good at ripping.....
If you doubt me, try this test. Take a 2x12 long say 8 to 10 feet long and try to cut the end square on a table saw.. Now try it with a compound mitre saw..
OK, next take a sheet of 1/2 plywood and try to rip it into 2 foot strips 8 feet long..
Now do it with a skil saw and a straight edge.
now take a 2x6 and slice thin strips off of it like you were gonna veneer something,
Now try it with a band saw.
Your on the Fine Wood Working site not Fine Home Building. This is knots not knuckleheads
?
And your point? aside from being insulting...
"Take a 2x12 long say 8 to 10 feet long and try to cut the end square on a table saw.. Now try it with a compound mitre saw.. "
My 12 CMS can't cut a peice that wide, has to be a slider. I can do that cut easily and more accurately on the tablesaw.
"OK, next take a sheet of 1/2 plywood and try to rip it into 2 foot strips 8 feet long.."
5 minutes on the tablesaw with cleaner cuts and probably more accurate
"now take a 2x6 and slice thin strips off of it like you were gonna veneer something"
Two passes for each cut on a 10" cabinet saw can handle that with no problems and I don't have to try to determine blade drift.
Now try to make a dado, rabbet, raised panel or cove molding on any of the tools you mentioned. For the work you do a cabinet saw may not be the right choice but most people on this forum are making furniture. For all of the cuts mentioned here I would only have to make one jig and that same jig could be used to crosscut 24" wide panels, which, by the way, is another task that none of the tools you mentioned could do as quickly or accurately. Tom
Thankyou Tom. That's what I wanted to say but didn't have the time. Frenchy, I apologize for being rude.
Mark
Maybe it's blasphemy to question the value of a table saw, If so I apologize to you and everyone who holds there table saw sacred..
Too awkward on a table saw and probably not very straight. How do you hold up one end of that 2x12 when you are directly over the blade? My arms aren't 8 feet long! If you tell me that you prop it up on a bench/stand etc. I'll show you how it drags the board off the line..
A sliding compound mitre saw wacks it off much easier..
Some furniture uses long boards, try to make a bed or a bookcase that goes to the ceiling!
I'll bet I'm faster and smoother and more accurite with a skil saw and straight edge. besides it's the same problem, wrestling with a 4x8 sheet of something is just plain awkward on a table saw..
Please note, I didn't say a 1 1/2 x 5 1/2, your blade won't cut three inches and if it does I'll bet there is some misalignment where the two sawcuts meet . I know that you can't do a 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12 or well, you get my point....
As for dado, I'll use my groove cutter thank you.. while you are still setting the width of the dado I'll be wiping the sawdust off and putting it away... as for making a cove molding, no thank you! I'll use my shaper for that! A rabbit like I just made again is done with the groove cutter, and the raised panel's were made with the shaper. (I like a little more curve in my panels than a saw cut done at an angle!)
Just because you can jig something and make one tool do something else doesn't mean you should or it's efficent/safe.
I'll grant you, for ripping narrow stock nothing can beat a table saw. But just like you can make a sled and do cross cutting, you can use a straight edge and do ripping... They both work......... sorta!
I apologize if this sounds like blasphemy. I mean if you were raised on a table saw or your table saw is your pride and joy I don't mean to rain on your parade. More than one way to skin a cat! which I guess is my whole point.. Is the table saw the most valuable power tool in your shop?
I think we all understand by now that a tablesaw isn't your cup of tea but to call it worthless is ridiculous. How many tools did you just list to do those various jobs that could all be done with a tablesaw. Not everyone here has an unlimited budget. I have crosscut bedrails of 8/4 maple perfectly on my tablesaw. Clamp it to a sliding cutoff jig and support the end and it is a peice of cake. I have built plenty of bookcases, pencilpost beds, cabinets etc and use my tablesaw extensively on all of them. For someone on a limited budget a tablesaw is surely more versatile than the whole list of tools you are using. You may be faster and more accurate with a skill saw and a straight edge but I'd be willing to bet that most here are not.
By the way, what is a groove cutter?
In my own shop the tablesaw is no longer the most used tool in the shop. It was at one time though before I was able to add more job specific machinery. It sounds as though your work habits are very different from mine and that may be because you have a background in framing or construction. Tom
Tom,
I'm sorry, I should not ever say that everyones tablesaw is worthless just because mine was....There are many clever people out there and they can overcome just about anyones handicap..
Saw a table saw that turned into a lathe and a bunch of other tools once. Kinda the ultimate in making one tool act like another...
I'm just amazed at how little I need a tablesaw. others have said the same thing..
Maybe the extreme amount of work I need to put out has me concerned about the set-up time more than some hobbiest who putters around and has no deadline to worry about..
Makita groove cutter..
Think of a skil saw with a dado head. Way cool tool! slicker than snot on a doorknob.
Frenchy,
I have two miters saws, and when it comes to whacking off a couple of inches of a 2x12, 8' long, the board is not held up any better in the miter saw then it is on a table saw. Both should have supports. Of Course my ts has a 52" table, and I don't think I would have much problem. Now granted, the 2x12 will not slide the greatest with a stock miter guage, but there are plenty of solutions for that.
Don
I'm sorry, shoulda mentioned I bought the stand that comes with the sliding compound mitre saw. I wack off 10 12 16 foot boards all of the time. Pull out the support and whack, done to perfection!
If I could find something as slick for a table saw maybe I could soften my position....
NEH!! rather be an old curmudgen! ;-)
Hi Frenchy,
Reading some of your other posts, I have come to the conclusion that you don't regard table saws very highly. While other tools like the bandsaw or the skilsaw may be more versatile (I would argue this), I would like to see you make frameless cabinets for a kitchen or two without a tablesaw. Of course it can be done, but the work would never be as precise nor as fast as it would with a tablesaw. I speak from experience: I swear (and have sworn many times) that I will never go back to making cabinets with a circular saw and a staightedge, all that fiddling and fussing and adding and subtracting 5 and a half inches and one 32nd at one end and then one 64th at the other end...and the marks that your circular saw and clamps and straightedge leave on the material.... I think you do less experienced woodworkers a disservice to say they should do without a tablesaw, especially if they have any cabinetmaking to do.
Plinthe from Quebec (I'm a Frenchy too...)
Edited 1/14/2003 4:14:36 PM ET by PLINTHE
I ain't a sayin' that the table saw should never be used, heck I evan plan to use my new one at some point.. Just that it hain't the most important power tool in the shop..
You measure things? I don't.. I use each piece as a story stick and mark the spot to be cut. since I started doing that, I rarely have to throw things away cause no matter how many times I cut them, I just can't seem to cut them long enough ;-)
Herb,
If you don't already have a contractor saw, I would definately hold out for a cabinet type. Don't look only at new equipment however. I recently purchased a Uni-saw made the same month and year I was born (July 1950) for $225.00 ! After having the table and extensions re-ground ($125.00), new belts and bearings (approx. $50.00); I have a really superb piece of machinery! Even if you add in what I plan to spend on goovy fence and miter gage upgrades, I will be still be into a great commercial grade saw for what you'd have to spend on a new contractor saw.
Restoring an old saw may seem a bit daunting at first if you are not into mechanics. It is definately worth the effort. Parts and manuals are generally easy to obtain. One phone call to Delta got me the month/year of manufacture, a nice copy of the Illustrated Parts Breakdown, owners manual and access to all the parts I needed.
Restoring an old tool is also an excellent way to get intimately acquainted! You will learn lots! For me, restoring these old gems is almost as much fun as using them and by putting your energy into them you will save money and have better equipment.
Good luck!
MackTim
I have gone in stages.
My first table saw was a Sears. Very nice and I got a good 10 years out of it.
My second was a Delta Contractors Saw, which I tricked out with an HTC Base, HTC outfeed table, and a Bosch Router Table. Very nice, too, and I got 12 years out of it. Finally the d a m n trunions kept going out of tune, and I would spend a hour a week under the saw with saw dust in my eyes calibrating it. I loved this saw and used it daily as a contractor. I just wore it out after 10 years.
I now own a Delta Unisaw for the home and love it. If you buy the stripped down version, it is not much bigger that the Contractor saw, a lot quieter, has a better fence and yes, as one poster pointed out, does not need calibrating as often. It is 240 volts, however, so I had to rewire the shop at a considerable expense.
If you are a semi pro or hobbiest, a good Contractors saw is fine. Get a good fence (HTC makes my current favorite), an outfeed table for plywood, and a moveable base. I would also trick it out with a router table on one of the extension tables. Bench Dog is my current favorite.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Well, looks like I touched a nerve. I suppose a little background is due: I have a Jet CS, with the cast iron wings and the Biesmeyer copy. And, more background, I used to work in a shop where the idea of a table saw was a 12 foot cap. 16" beam saw or a sliding number with a 60" sliding table. The Powermatic 66s were just toys. Even after all that exposure, I still like my CS. I know I am not in my last home, so it will move a lot, and I just can't justify the expense of wiring my unheated garage (I live in New England and it's currently about 10 degrees outside) for 220 power.
And as far as the tuning one up, well, I've never done anything more than make sure the fence was parallel to the blade. Is it really that important? I'm certain my work is not micrometer accurate, and that probably sounds like heresy, but it is wood, after all.
Sure, someday when I build my dream shop, I'd like to upgrade to a shweet cab saw. Until then, I'd rather spend my limited $$ on something more important, like light fixtures that don't flicker in the cold.
Herb ill be honest. If youre cutting sheet goods all day long, stay away from a table saw and buy a panel saw. Better on the back, and accuracy of high end table saws.
Ive got a CS, and id prefer a cabinet saw. More accurate, better power, and much more stable.
Ive seen pleny of pieces that have never seen a power tool, they are accurate. Ive witness and made pieces using a worm drive and or a sidewinder. Even with the use of my table saw, everything gets jointed. I dont view the tablesaw as an end cut, but they are a handy tool for many operations.
i never shy away from tool purchases, but in all honesty the table saw isnt the king of the shop. But if your style points to a table saw over bandsaws and jointers (hand or machine) then get a cabinet saw.
But if youre starting up or adding on, A Bandsaw and or jointer & planer should be priority over a tablesaw. And if you want to cut nothing but sheetgoods then find a panel saw, they are safer and forego much user error(bad cuts etc) when dealing with sheet goods.
<add>Hekc if youre just wanting to stop flickering lights, go to a sparky supply house and ask for cold weather ballasts, they are about 15 bucks a pop. No cold weather flickering :) no need for new fixutres when all you need are the correct ballasts for your flourescent lights. Every other light in my shop is a cold weather ballasts. they are a nice luxury
Edited 1/14/2003 11:42:40 PM ET by BILL_1010
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