I am about to buy a new tablesaw. I have about a $1000 to spend. I can’t decide whether to spend $650 on a General Contractor Saw (thereby leaving some cash to spend on another tool) or blow the whole thing on a Grizzly left tilt cabinet saw. What do you think?
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Replies
Give us some info on what kind of work you're doing, and are likely to do in the future.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm am just a little more than a beginner but want to improve to the point that I can make furniture. Also I'm recently retired so I'm a just putting my shop together and plan to spend a lot of leisure time in it.
Norm is asking the very question I came to ask. I am getting started. I have a Craftsman contractor saw that's headed for the recycle bin.
I will be making a lot of book shelves, tables, etc. I'm looking to spend around $500. Any suggestions?
If you only have $500 to spend on a new saw, think about giving your old Craftsman a serious tuneup instead of dumping it. I know that many of the people who read this will start screaming that Craftsman tools are junk but that just ain't necessarily so.
I was ready to dump my mid-80's vintage Craftsman table saw about five years ago when I started making the cabinets for my kitchen remodeling project. Since money was an issue (and I'm a tad bit stubborn), I decided to see what (if anything) I could do to improve my old saw. I tore it completely down, cleaned it and put it back together spending a lot of time getting the arbor and blade were square with the table and parallel with the miter slots. I replaced the stock fence with the Craftsman XR2424 fence, replaced the stock pulleys, and went to a link belt. I also bought decent quality 60 tpi and 80 tpi carbide blades and set the whole thing on a shop built cabinet for dust collection. I made a sled for cutoff work and made zero clearance inserts for the most common cuts (90*, 45*, and dados). My out-of-pocket costs were around $250 - $300 and I probably have around 4-5 days of my time invested. The improvement in performance has been phenomenal and I use the saw every day in my cabinetry/woodworking business. I'm sure I'll upgrade at some point since I've probably pushed the old Craftsman to it's limits, but the experience has convinced me that - with a little time and effort - you can get way more out of a Craftsman saw than most folks think.
Getting a new table saw for $500 is a little difficult, but not impossible. I think, but don't know for sure, that the Rigid saw (Home Depot) is in that range. The new Grizzly contractor saw if $435 with stamped steel wings, and $525 with cast iron wings, $75 shipping for either. The main problem I've heard about the Ryobi saw mentioned above is that it constantly comes out of adjustment. Maybe they've made improvement recently.
If there's a woodworking show coming up near you soon, talk to some of the local craftsmen and spread the word that you're looking. You might be able to come up with a used saw very reasonably. I got my Jet contractor saw for free, but had to put a new motor on it. Was able to finagle a new Jet motor for $175.00.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If you have only $500 in the budget and have "more time than money", I'd certainly suggest looking for a used (but not abused) cabinet saw. They are out there and spending a little time and energy in the rehab./tune up is a great education and passtime in itself.
I purchased a 1950 Unisaw for $225 back about two years ago. All it really needed was a miter gage and a good cleaning.
Read some posts here not too long ago from a guy who got one for "get it out of here"!
Best of luck on the quest!
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I orderd the Grizzly on Tuesday (the 11th) and it arrived here today (Friday, 15th). I haven't finished setting it up yet because I have to go someplace tonight and will be gone for the weekend (DARN!) so I will finish on Monday and give you a report.
BTW, great service by the truckdriver who helped me move it into the shop and check everything out (he wanted to see it too!).
Norm, I'm with Dennis on recommending a cabinet saw. It's not like you're starting out in your 20's or early 30's and will probably upgrade in 10 years or something. Sounds like you're setting up your "dream shop" first thing and will spend lots and lots of "right brain" time in it, might as well go for the good stuff in the beginning.
So, what about the safety issue? Get a couple of really good, comprehensive table saw books, and read them cover to cover, paying special attention to the safety information. Search the archives here at Knots, and any other forum you participate in, using the keyword "kickback" and read and absorb the info. Talk to some woodworkers at the show, or in your town. Set your saw up safely (read: tuned perfectly) and have the correct safety equipment and accessories. Be conscious whenever you're working it and if something doesn't feel right, don't do it. Whenever I'm making a cut that's unfamiliar to me, I "dry run" it with the saw blade below the table and just feel for where there might be a trouble spot. Don't be macho and refuse to refer back to the book periodically.
The Grizzly 1023S (or the left-tilt version) is a great choice, IMO. Especially if you don't have 3K or so to splurge on a European saw.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Norm
I would suggest starting out with something less powerful than a full size cabinet saw. The tablesaw is one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment in your shop. If you are trying to rip a sheet of plywood and get it a little crooked on a contractor saw ( 1 to 1 1/2 horsepower motor) it will probably bog down and trip a breaker. The same scenario on a cabinet saw (3 + horsepower) that plywood will come back at you. A fellow here in my hometown was an experienced woodworker and this happened to him. He upgraded to a unisaw and was ripping a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood by himself, which is a no no, and woke up on the floor with plywood on top of him. Except for scrapes and bruises and embarrassment he was pretty much OK. If it sounds like I'm trying to scare you, I am. I want you to enjoy woodworking the way I do. There is nothing more satisfying than building something and giving it to someone you love.
This is a good place to get some pointers and you will find about 99.99 percent of us are very safety conscious
les
Norm ....
I guess I wouls part company with most of the replies you've had so far. If you're serious about getting in to woodworking, don't skimp on the tools. Unless, that is, you have the kind of budget that allows for periodic upgrades of tools *or* you have a ready market for selling tools you own to help offset the cost of upgrading.
I realize there lots of people around, and for sure in this forum, that can and do turn out great work on contractor saws all the time. Far better than what I do, most likely. But, after living with a contractor saw for some 20 years I finally got 'round to a cabinet saw. What a difference. Bigger table, more power, more rigidity .... all in all my projects have improved considerably.
No, a cabinet saw doesn't make you an instant woodworker but it helps you become a better one.
Again, if you can afford upgrading over time from a contractor saw to a cabinet saw, it's a good way to start. But if you don't intend to buy another saw, I'd go for the cabinet saw.
The Grizzley line of tools contains a rather hit & miss bag of good things and not so good things. Their table saws seem to enjoy a fairly good reputation as one of their better things. My neighbor is a professional cabinet maker and owns one. He's quite satisfied with it.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Museums are full of truly great furniture – our history as wood workers. Most all of the furniture that fills museums was made with very crude hand tools and rudimentary powered tools. Note that Lie-Neilson did not exist in 1700.
People that post on this forum are infected with “expensive tool-itis” and can’t imagine anything decent being made with an inferior table saw and, god forbid, a STANLEY plane.
The thing most lacking in every beginner, and lots of us journeymen, is skill and experience, not tool quality. There’s something to be said for having a table saw that is heavy, vibration free, and accurate to space shuttle tolerances. But, you wouldn’t be able to tap even the periphery of that advantage until you’ve made many cubic feet of sawdust.
I’d suggest pushing the limits of what you have first, if you can. When what you make is limited by your shop, not you, then go out and buy top shelf.
Just my opinion. If you’re validated by the price tag on your equipment more than what you can do with it, buy the best!
Edited 10/10/2004 2:21 am ET by telemiketoo
My vote is definately to go with a cabinet saw. The notion that cabinet saws are some how more dangerous is ridiculous. That is like saying a .22 is safer than a .357. If you experience kick back it is dangerous no mater what. Really though, I've only heard of bruises occuring from kickback. The real damage is when flesh and blade mix; and then horse power is irrelevant. Most kickbacks are a combination of user error and poor blade/ fence allignment. A cabinet saw is is easier to set up and keeps its settings. They also have longer fences, which is safer. The mistake that the guy made cutting the plywood had nothing to do with the saw. You said you want to make furniture at some point, a cabinet saw makes this a lot easier. I have seen fabulous work come out of shops with contractors saws, but most upgrade saws as their skills increase. If you are not sure that you want a big saw you can always buy a contractors saw and easily sell it later when you upgrade. I bought my Craftsman contractor saw for $400 and sold it for $250 I think that I could have gotten $300 but a neighbor made the offer before I tried to sell it, and I am lazy so I did it.
People seem very pleased with their Griz saws. Also look for used saws. They generally sell for 70 percent of their new price (which is nuts) but they usually include a lot of acessories and upgrades. If you are patient you will find a good deal.
Have fun in you new hobby,
Mike
Norm,
First, the truth is buying a table saw is probably the 'best value' of all the investments in woodworking you'll make. That is, when you look at what you get for the price it's really quite cheap relatively speaking. Second, to make fine furniture, even bookcases, you need a large heavy workbench with good vises and handtools.
As you become more knowledgable and proficient with the hand tools you also become less dependant on the table saw for quality outcomes. However, the cabinet saw can save or at least postpone other woodworking expenditures. The design helps with dust, the power allows for resawing fairly large stock, with aftermarket add-ons (miter guage, Dado set) other power tools are not as necessary. Lastly, a cabinet saw is heavy and less likely to move when pushing stock through.
A contractor saw can be set up to compete very effectively with a cabinet saw...but when the cost verses value is considered it just doesen't seem to make sense to skimp.
Norm,
I recently retired and budgeted about the same for a table saw. My initial decision was the Grizzly 1023SL. After a few weeks of worrying about the expense I changed my mind and ended up with the Ryobi BT3100 for $299 (plus tax). I have no progeny to hand the tool too nor do I care if it lasts "many lifetimes."
As stated in another post, I got caught up with bigger-is-best. All of my tools are cheap. I have a Harbor Freight SCMS that, so far, has served me very well. Recently, I bought a $29 B&D jig saw to modify some cove molding for registers. Works fine for me. Maybe some day I will produce great works of art and I'll go out and get top-of-the-line but today, given my skill level, I'm very satisfied with my collection of "junk" tools and my still intact checking account. My next purchase is a Canon D20.
You may also want to consider investing in a heavy bandsaw. Using it to do all your ripping (not to mention all the things it can do that a TS can't do) may allow you to get by with a smaller, less powerful TS.
Boy, all you guys have given me a lot to think about. I am now leaning toward the Grizzly 1023L but I am going to wait until the Woodworking Show in Portland to look around and talk to a few more people before I decide. I really appreciate your interest and responses.
Thanks to all!
Norm -
You can agonize over this decision for weeks or months. Believe me, I've been there (grin). You can do *great* work with a contractor saw. I did it for several years with a 30 year old Craftsman. That was before I even knew what "tuning" a table saw meant. But I stand by my original position that if you have the money *now*, go for the cabinet saw.
Which one? Another agonizing question. Sure, we all probably secretly yearn for a vintage Powermatic 66 that's only been used by a little old school teacher in her spare time (grin) .... but I don't think you will go wrong opting for the Grizz machine. Theire customer service is second to no one's. The only reason I'd suggest getting something like a Delta Unisaw, or General, or Jet or ... dare I saw it ... Powermatic, is that you might have a dealer local that would provide better (read quicker) after sales support. There's more to buying a table saw than opening up the box and plugging it in.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Come across the border into Canada and pick up a General International cabinet saw model 50-220. 10" true cabinet saw with 2 HP 110 or 220, General T fence (made under contract by Beisemeyer) and selling for $1099 Canadian! While your here come to our woodworking show this weekend - check http://www.canwestshows.com and the Vancouver woodworking show. KMS tools has this model on sale for $1099 including Generals tenoning jig ($130 value). Outsells Grizzly, Delta and King. Check some of the other forums (Canadian woodworker etc.) and you'll see what I mean. Oh to be Canadian! I love it.
I've seen that saw, and it's nice! So...it's $875 USD, including the tenoning jig. What else is involved in bringing it into the US? forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Well, I spent the last two days tossing this around, reflecting on your posts, and finally decided I just didn't want to wait any longer so I placed my order for the Grizzly 1023SL (as many of you suggested) and now I'll wait for a few days like a kid waiting for Christmas.
Say, Forest Girl, Vancouver is my favorite city . I attended UBC back in the 70's ( great school!). Try to get back at least a couple of times a year. Wish I could make it up to the WW Show but won't be able to.
Thanks to all for your advise and encouragement.
Norm, that's exciting about the saw! You're obligation, ya know, to giving us a full report after you get it set up and running. <g>
How far do you have to travel to get to BC?? I live just outside of Seattle on Bainbridge Island, haven't been up to Vancouver for about 4 years I guess. Used to get up there regularly when hubby did consulting for a Canadian company.
I'll have to pass on the show and wait for the April even in Tacoma. Sure will be glad when the economy recovers enough to support one in Seattle again!
Pleasant dreams......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
A cabinet saw IS more dangerous than a contractors saw. If you jamb a piece of wood in a contractors saw, the belt will slow down, and you can actually stall the machine and trip the breaker before it kicks back. That is impossible in a cabinet saw. If one tries it you are likely to have a chunk of wood shoved into your hand.
My vote will not please many here. I say get a used Sears saw. They will stupidly cheap, Sears will service it, and if you find it is light duty, you are OK; if you graduate to more serious stuff, sell it (you won't lose much) and graduate to a cabinet saw in a couple years.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris -
Stating that one will not experience 'kickback' on a contractor's saw is simply not true. Yes, contractor's saws are (normally) less powerful than cabinet saws. But stupid is as stupid does. One can experience kickback on *any* table saw regardless.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
No kidding. I like that line "Stupid is as stupid does" -- nice one. My friend's friend who practically impaled her spleen was using a nice little General International contractor saw. I've managed to trip the breaker on my Jet a couple of time, but it's been more often that something has fired backwards.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Norm,
Congrats on the new saw. I think you made the right choice; I've seen the Grizzly and it looks like a nice unit.
I really disagree with the idea that an underpowered saw is somehow safer. One of the trickiest tools I have a little battery-powered Makita circular saw; unless I'm real careful it has a tendency to bind in the cut and, being so underpowered, will tend to kick back rather than power through the cut.
IMHO, any safety mechanism that depends on an underpowered motor stalling and tripping the breaker on an inadequate branch circuit needs serious re-thinking. Breakers aren't supposed to trip, except in extreme cases of circuit fault or over overcurrent condition. Safety should depend on proper splitters and guards, and proper procedures (like never stand behind the piece or in line with the blade; something I have ingrained in me from using a chainsaw).
Since your in the Northwest (and retired, lucky you), I heartily recommend a trip to the Grizzlet corporate HQ in Bellingham. The showroom has everything they sell on display, enough to make any woodworker drool. If you live in Oregon, they don't even charge you sales tax if you buy something while you are there.
And yes, Vancouver is a great place to visit.
I upgraded a couple years ago to the 1023 sl and it's great. I have never regretted buying a grizzly. They were great when I was missing a small hinge for the motor cover. They sent the missing part immediately. The saw has worked flawlessly. Build yourself a cutoff sled, a zero clearance insert, and a splitter behind the blade, you won't regret it. You've got to remember, this is a horse and is unforgiving. Near the end of the day when fatigue begins to set in off go the power tools, if possible. The trucking company was even willing to unload the saw into my shop.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Norm, Don't waste money on a cabinet grade saw unless you plan to do woodworking as a serious career. They are very heavy and remember when it comes time to move, that saw has to go, and it literally weighs a ton. Also it is a very powerful saw and that may mean having to upgrade your electrical circuit. A 3hp motor while sounding very hefty and so on is actually overkill for doing hobby work and even some serious woodwork. I do serious woodworking including furniture and outdoor benches. I often use hardwoods. I have a delta contractor saw with a 1hp motor and it is more than suffice. It moves easily if I have to move it, it isn't that heavy and the money I saved I put towards other tools such as a dust collector. Don't get me wrong I am not knocking the Cabinet grade saw but for the work you will be doing, the contractor saw should be more than enough. But whatever you do, don't get the cheapy bench top model, it isn't worth the money. Oh, and by the way, if you are going to rip a 4x8 sheet of plywood, do it the right way and use a straight edge clamp and a circular saw.
Edited 10/13/2004 7:55 pm ET by donnybongo
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