My sister-in-law owns a successful frame shop. She needs to purchace a new compound mitre saw and asked me to recommend the best she can buy.
I use a DW SCMS but I wouldnt recommend it to her because the fence is not flat and therefore I can set the saw to be perpendicular on one sice or the other but because the fence is not perfectly flat, I cannot have the blade 90 degrees to both sides at a time.
She does not need a slider. I would appreciate recommendations on what Knoters think is the best on the market.
Replies
Have you considered guillotine cutters instead?
Jack
I just purchased the Bosch based on tool reviews from Fine woodworking for 2005 adn 2006 (tool review). I had a non slider dewalt for years... Love the bosch though.Drew
Coming from a trim carpenter, this may seem like heresy, but a table saw and a sled will produce extremely accurate cuts for smallish stock used in picture framing. Otherwise a miter trimmer or a miter plane and a shooting board would be the alternatives for "picture" perfect miters.
Regards, Sean
Sean, they do not have a table saw and wouldn't know what a shooting board is:>)
I think what they really want and possibly need is a good CMS. When they were telling me about the cuts they make, I thought "shooting board" but they do not have a plane, and do not know anything about sharpening.
Thanks for your reply.
Cool
Cool, I have a Bosch 12" CMS and couldn't be happier with it. It is solid, has a bigger table than the other saws I looked at (2 years ago) and was more saw for the money. It holds it's settings well and has plenty of power (maybe more than she'd need it in a frame shop). The accessories (mainly auxiliary stock support) were much more reasonably priced than, say, DeWalt.
That being said, the Makita may be the cat's meow -- see what others say.
FG, I thought about Bosch, even mention it and Makita. They sometimes cut fairly large stock. We talked about a slider because of that. Today, they came by to borrow one of my spare 12's to check on how that would work. I do not have a good understanding of what they need. I am just trying to find out for them what the por's think is the best saw.
Thanks for your input.
BTY, I visited with Mapleman and he is truly a fine person. Took a lot of time to "shop talk". I know you and he did some trading on clamps.
Lee's on my list of "people to badger" if we ever make a trip back to my roots in North Carolina. Yep, the clamp trade was a good thing for both of us! Love my Jets, he's happy with the Bessey's.
Wishing your friends best of luck with the CMS selection.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think you're on the right track, and everyone else is too. A chop saw is going to do good joinery from the trimwork perspective but frames are perfection repeated in miters. She's really only going to guarantee that with a guillotine trimmer. At which point, any miter saw that makes good cuts is going to be adequate for cutting long of the line.
I also have the 12" Bosch SCMS and its great but I wouldn't do frames with it. Or at least not only it. That said, Bosch makes a real good saw. I've heard a ton of people who love the Maks, and I had one and must have just gotten a lemon b/c I hated it. I've had the DW, used Ridgid and Milwaukee and some shop brands I cant pronounce. They all cut.
Really, a good clean blade is probably going to get her farther towards her goal than the saw brand will. And the smaller dia blades tend to flex a little less.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
RW
She has a guillotine cutter. I have seen it. I do not know if she is thinking of replacing it with a chop saw or not. I have a DeWalt 12 SCMS but I couldn't recommend it. The fence is not flat and cannot be corrected. It's not much but in some work, it is necessary to know it. I solved it by having my blade square with the left side where I do 75 percent of my cutting naturally. I do plan to replace it though.
Thanks
Morning coolbreeze...
I have the Hitachi 12" SCMS and love it, but... I will join all those that mentioned that the precision cut required to do picture frames commercially may be a "hit and run" affair with any miter saw period. And I suppose that might need an explanation on that call.
You can do great 45 degree angle cuts with a miter saw that are very acceptable with standard trim work. But.. with all the power behind the saw when it makes contact with the stock at an angle can move the stock every so slightly causing a slight open end on your angle cut when butted together.
I was having this problem and originally thought it was the blade deflecting even though I was getting "dead on" straight cuts. Wasn't the blade as I tried two others and one was a full kerf. Had to go to a group of local southern "trim carpenters" I know to solve the problem with what they refer to as "walking the fence" on an angle cut. A firm grip.. a piece of self adhesive sand-paper applied on the fence and a slower feed rate solved the "walking".
But.. even with that said, picture frames are picture frames and must be picture perfect to meet the demanding criteria of the buying public. I do not think that a big hoss power saw can deliver that "perfect kiss" that is required here each and every squeeze of the trigger as the human element comes into play.
The trimmers deliver a slow.. deliberate "slice" as from a surgeons scaffold and that's what I would recommend to your SIL. If she has one as you mentioned and is not satisfied, I would recommend she tune hers and slow things down a tad as any angled force is going to create a counter re-action that could cause the stock to "walk the fence".
Regards...
Sarge..
I have a delta 36-412 12" miter and I love it. Great capacity too. I rarely need the features of a slider - plus they would cost more. I got mine from Amazon several years ago for around $300. The only other saws worth getting (my opinion) are the Hitachi or Makita 10" sliders.
The delta has a few features like the sliding fences (they use a pinch clamp method of loosening and tightening - you'd have to see it - its slick) and it has the crown stops that are adjustable. Plus the controls are easy to use and set. But I noticed they might not be making it anymore - same though - very good 12" saw for the money.
But one of the big points is defiantly the blade. 12" blades should never be thin kerf - and usually the more $$$ the better the blade (I've found so far)
Brian
Brian,
You're right about the thin kerf blade.
I havn't thought about Delta. Most of my machines are Delta but I haven't thought about them in a while. Do ou know anything about the quality since thery are now B&D?
My last major purchace was a PM 2000 cabinet saw. It is truly deserving of the accolades it has received.
I've had my 36-412 for about 2 years. They changed up a model last year and added a laser - but I don't know if they changed anything else. But yes - I paid around $300 after the 36-412L (laser model) came out. It was selling for around $350 - and I waited when Amazon had a father's day sale - I think I got $50 off. Amazon use to have those good sales - not so much any more. But I couldn't beat the no sales tax & free shipping. I'll be honest - the most I ever saw it for was $425Its been a great straight forward saw that can do just about anything with a very reasonable price tag. But as you mentioned - B&D bought Delta/ PC sometime last year (I think) From my understanding - they might leave them alone and just own them as a company. If they try and merge them - nothing good can come from it.Its my opinion that B&D and DeWalt are not the companies they were 20 tears ago. So I tend so stay away from them.As for saws in general - if you don't need a 12" - get a 10". You'll have better blade selection and most of the 10" saws are stout (Makitas , Hitachi and even the remaining Deltas)B
Edited 8/25/2007 12:17 am ET by Grey Clover Furniture
FYI DeWalt will replace your fence for free. There was a bad casting and they sent me a new one w/ no ?? asked.
I have not even thought about asking. I have had the saw a long time. How long did you have yours. I am not sure how long I have had it. If you have bought yours within the last 5 years, I would think it could not have come from the same casting.
Please let me know. I will try to find a receipt for mine. I do remember paying $619 for mine.
Cool
I got mine last Dec, realized the problem in march. Still shouldn't be too expensive to get a replacement.trimjim
I don't own this saw, but I was at a friends shop this past week who had just gotten it.
I did give it a test-drive, and it felt very nice. I think I could get use to using the laser very easily.
http://www.hitachi-koki.com/powertools/products/cutter/c12lsh/c12lsh.html
If my DW were to quit, this would be my next one.
I don't think there is a particular CMS that stands head and shoulders about the others. But in my years of reading threads here and at Breaktime, Makita and Hitachi are clearly the pack leaders, in terms of accolades and satisfied customers. But Bosch also has its fans.Personally, I own Makitas and can attest to its virtues. One especially nice thing is that it comes equipped with a very high quality blade, which I think is as good as the vaunted Forrest Chopmaster.If I were in your shoes, I would feel comfortable in recommending they choose between Makita and Hitachi based on the features they like. But I would suggest they buy it from a place where they can actually handle the saws first.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The fence on the Dewalt is adjustable, even though it doesn't appear to be.
Mine was off between a 1/16th and 1/32nd when it came out of the box. I loosened up two of the four screws, flexed it true, and retightened the screws. Then after checking it with a straight edge and feeler gauge, (less than 0.002 out), I double checked that the fence was at 90 to the bed.
That was five years, and a bit of abuse ago, and it is still true. One of the things I liked about the Dewalt was that the detent sectors can be loosened up and adjusted. Not possible with many of the others.
For a blade to do, precise work on picture frame materials, I would recommend a good nonferrous metals blade. They are thicker, stiffer, and have better carbide in the teeth. I used to take mine on and off, but now just leave the metal blade on all the time.
Mine was off between a 1/16th and 1/32nd when it came out of the box. I loosened up two of the four screws, flexed it true, and retightened the screws. Then after checking it with a straight edge and feeler gauge, (less than 0.002 out), I double checked that the fence was at 90 to the bed.
Jigs. I am not looking at the saw and do not know what screws you are talking about. Are you telling me that when you got your DeWalt and laid a straight edge on the febce that there was as much as 1/16th gap along the length of the fence?? Correct me if I am wrong, but the fence and base is cast/milled aluminum. I do not know how you can fix that. When I send this reply, I am going out and look at it again. If I discover what you are talking about, I'll let you know. I will also send you 100 attaboys.
Thanks for your reply.
Cool
Mine is the old 705 model. On it; the bed is one casting, the "turntable", (for lack of a better word), is one casting and the fence is a third, that is held on to the bed, by four bolts.
I put a piece of wood against the fence, saw the gap, and proceeded to get out the straight edge, and fix it.
Maybe the newer ones, went backwards, and have the fence and bed as one casting. Can't quite see why they would do that, as it would make the assembly a real pain.
One of the other features I like about the Dewalt is that the blade plates in the turntable are replaceable, which results in a zero clearance to the blade, making it easy to judge the cut.
Edited 8/29/2007 3:18 am ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
I have both a dewalt and an older makita. I like them both. The guillotine choppers are really only suitable for small stock, larger moldings require a saw. A table saw with sliding table and quick clamping and measuring fences is the cat's meow... they are pricey but worthwhile if you have the business to work them steadily. I have always worked with a chop saw and my miters are better than most. Takes about a $40,000.00 setup to do much better. If you have the business to support it those are the Lamborghini saws. They have two blades set to cut at right angles just like the guillotine cutters but with high grade saw blades instead of the chopper knife. I have seen very fine work done with handsaw miter setups too... these are NOT cheap though... they cost much more than a chop saw set up. The trick with a chop saw is to start with a very sharp blade of quite high quality and then make a rough cut slightly oversize finishing with a shave cut that is made using a high saw speed and a very smooth slow and steady chop stroke. The shave cut should remove about 1/32 inch of material. Too little risks the saw sliding off the finish cut into the rough cut trough... too thick a cut will over stress the blade and cause deflection that shows up as a poor fit.
Edited 8/29/2007 11:15 am ET by bigfootnampa
Omga makes a double miter chop especially for framers. It is not cheap but is a production machine with dead accuracy.
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