Is there a good online resource for learning about the composition of wood?
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
I think the stuff is made from trees.
What sort of information are you looking for?
Lee
Furniture Carver
Lee-
Thank goodness you're still here. Please stay around for awhile and elevate the tone of this place.
Elevate?...Whataya mean elevate?!
Jon-
Anywhere above rock bottom.
Oh heck, Don, I'm still around. I'm just a lurker most days until I chime in with some worthless tidbit like I did above here. The abuse from the likes of Jon Arno make me bashful about contributing, maybe I'll see if I can get him banned, after all it was a personal attack.
All in good humor, all in good humor.
Jon, rarely do I elevate, deviate perhaps, but rarely elevate.
Lee
Lee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
Actually, I thought that crap-- wood-- was made from recycled paper, and is sold as MDF, or hardboard. If I'm wrong, somebody put me straight. Information like that doesn't come from trees. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Is that the stuff they have at Gallery Furniture "saves you money!"
Ah, jc, you must live in, or know Houston. Mattress Mac, a Houston fixture. He's moved on a bit from the mattresses out of the back of a truck line, but most of his furniture still seems to have all the attributes of mediocre. Flash the dollar bill at the end of the advert-- gawd, it's cheesy, but it fills houses, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.Some stuff I've made.
Good answer
Philip
I wanted to know which components were easiest to remove, either by leaching or by bacterial action.
One of the theories on Stradivari violins is that the logs were kept in water for a long time, which removed much of the softer material in the wood. This treatment supposedly resulted in wood that weighed less and transmitted sound better.
Anyway, I was wondering what components were removed, and what would be left--the vascular system of the tree?
Storing logs in ponds was and still is pretty common. I don't know what leaches out of a stored log but I know it would depend a great deal on the pond itself. Have you gathered water samples from the pond Stradivarius used? Well, with present day pollution you'll have to get pretty involved with guessing at the water back in the days he was making his instruments. Water isn't just water.
Still trying to nail Stradivarius down, huh? I suppose it will go on forever and I just hope that if some instrument maker duplicates that sound that the response is "Jeez, I don't know what I did differently, it was just another instrument."
Lee Lee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
Lee-
You wouldn't happen to know what Shakespeare regularly ate for breakfast, would you? I'm trying to figure out why his stories are so interesting.
When wood is submerged in water the first change that seems to occur is the leaching out of the wood's water soluble extractives. The effects this has on the wood is highly dependent on the species, because the extratives in various species differ with respect to the concentrations of resins and gums. Resins (usually more common to softwoods; gymnosperm species) are less water soluble than gums, which are more common to hardwoods ( angiosperms)...but there are also oleo-resins and other extractives unique to various species that might be affected by the water in differing ways.
Submersion in water actually retards the action of aerobic molds and fungi that tend to decay wood quickly, because they can't metabolize without free oxygen. The decay agents that work on submerged wood are mostly anaerobic bacteria and they work much more slowly in decomposing the wood (over decades, if not centuries.)
Lee's comment that the purity of the water also matters is a very valid point. Whatever impurities it might contain could have a significant impact on the wood, both in the short term and the long term. For instance, if the water contains unusually high concentrations of sulfuric acid (as it might, given modern air pollution...or even if the lake or stream just naturally happens to have few alkaline deposits in it's sediments to counteract the acid) the acid could act relatively quickly on the wood tissue, or cause chemical changes in even some of the wood's more stable (unleached) extractives.
Also, if the water is rich in dissolved minerals (such as iron) these minerals may react with natural acids in the wood to cause mineral salts to form. These salts take the form of pigments and in the case of species that have high tannic acid content (such as oak), it will eventually color the wood...for example "bog oak." Also, if the water contains salt (sea water) the effects of soaking can be disasterous from a wood workers point of view. Residue salt left in the wood once it is dried causes the wood to retain more moisture than it normally would and will cause metals (fasterners, hardware, etc) kept in contact with the wood to rust or corrode....So, the issue of what soaking does to wood is a complicated one...especially when you're trying to examine the often very subtle changes that would affect it's acoustic properties.
There's a physicist at Texas A&M who noticed, while touring European museums, that seventeenth-century wooden artifacts had wormholes--except the ones from Cremona. He did some research and found that in Cremona they used borax as a pesticide, but the practice stopped when the infestation declined, which was also the same time that the Stradivari workshop dropped off the radar.
I found some interesting articles on this physicist, who has spent the last thirty or so years investigating the mystery of the Stradivari, and his findings. The first is an interview by Scientific American: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BD557-2293-1CFD-93F6809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=4
From Discover magazine: http://www.discover.com/jul_00/featviolin.html (there's a funny story about collecting chemicals from coworkers)
From Physics Web: http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/4/8 Much of this was over my head.
Anyway, it seems to me that what Prof. Nagyvary discovered would be applicable to guitars as well as violins.
Is this Texas A&M guy sure it's not just that worms don't like Italian food?... :o)
Seriously, it very likely could be that the borax residue in the wood affects its acoustics...but there are so many, many subtlties in the materials and construction of a violin, I seriously doubt if they'll ever nail down the mystery of Cremona. I'm no expert on violins, but I suspect there is a veritable symphony of ever so minute attributes unique to the Strads that make them what they are...and one of the more important variables is probably simply their age.
The flax fiber that I spin into linen thread is also water-processed. The stems of flax plants are kept wet until bacterial action makes it possible to separate out the phloem, which is dried and cleaned for spinning. It makes a very stong thread that is comfortable in hot weather because it wicks away perspiration.
I was wondering if, after storage in water, the lumber was mostly phloem, and would they still be hollow?
Prof. Nagyvary fills the crevices of the wood with mineral crystals, which I guess makes it halfway fossilized.
I have noticed the following interesting phenomenon regarding violin music. If I am listenening to my CD of the Beethoven Quartet for Strings Opus 132, and I submerge the CD player in the pond behind my house during the third movement (Addagio), the sound tends to first crackle, then disappear. I believe this is due to the resins from the fish that inhabit the pond, but would welcome other suggestions.
You're dealing with the permeability of the cell walls at that level and since high temperature kilns were a bit rare in those days I'd guess the cell walls remained largely intact. Whatever can cross the cell wall could certainly affect the wood and whatever would remain intercelluar would affect the the wood. Considering the number of things available to a pond and the guys fooling around in that pond, well, the variables are really more than I would care to contemplate.
I would hate to discourage this quest of yours but like Jon says, there are so very many things affecting the instrument that nailing a hundred down would leave only several hundred to go and assuming the variables number 300...what's 300 to the 300th power? You got time to build that many violins?
I'm curious, though, what is your interest?...a passing curiosity? Are you an instrument builder by trade? Are you really striving to unlock the secrets of the Strad fiddles? Are you sure there are secrets or could they possibly be accidents, simply fortuitous accidents?
Donald, I heard Shakespeare took regular pilgramages to the Blarney Stone and took kissing to a whole new level.
Lee
Lee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
Lee, I've been lurking on another website peopled almost exclusively by violin makers for the past week or so...and I've never seen a group take their craft so seriously...I mean they don't just debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, they're into bickering about whether the little dears are wearing tap shoes or pumps.
I'm learning tons of detail from them and they are very knowledgeable and likeable artisans...But their essential phylosophy isn't like that found in most crafts. They seem dedicated to duplicating the state of the art achieved in 18th Century Cremona as opposed to attempting to better it. The Cremonese masters were truely great, but I guess I have difficulty coming to grips with the idea that humanity to date has achieved perfection in anything. Shouldn't the ultimate brass ring be to find a way to do it better?...You'd think they'd be experimentally soaking their stock in everything from champagne to pony urine looking for the best results...rather than mulling over what was in the puddle (or piddle) back in ol' Cremona...Oh well.
Edited 11/18/2002 3:51:51 PM ET by Jon Arno
Jon,
It wasn't in the wood it was in the VARNISH!
Stephen Shepherd
Stephen, I've heard the "it's the VARNISH, stupid" argument before...but at least on that one I think we have a chance of proving or rejecting the premise. Has anybody even stripped and refinished one of those Strads yet?
Jon,
I don't think anyone in their right mind (but they are out there) would or has stripped a Cremonese violin. Instruments in the 'white' do have a different tone from instruments that have been varnished. I think it is probably a combination of things including the fact that some of the old growth trees harvested back then could have been growing during the inter-glaciation period that occured around 1275 and may have had very tight ring patterns. This thread could last a while.
Stephen Shepherd
Stephen, I'm just jerking your chain about stripping a Strad...The very thought of it is enough to make a sane person want to retch. And I'd agree with you that the varnish makes a significant contribution to the sound, but I suspect there's a mind boggling number of other variables that also make a difference.
...And lee, you're right about where I keep my dulcimers: In the closet. They're fun to build, but I'm not all that skilled in the myopics of musical instrument making. Like the Old Mountain Makers, I do it pretty much just to keep my jackknife from rusting.
I'd heard about a great deal of research being given to the varnish, too. Nothing really conclusive came of it.
I think the pond used for the logs was full of red herring.
LeeLee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
I've got some idea, Jon, of just how divergent instrument making is from the rest of woodworking in general. When we lived in New York I was approached by a forte piano maker. Dick Hester was one of three guys in the world making Walter reproductions, the piano Mozart played on and he needed help with the grunt work. Demand was good due to symphonies wanting to play the music on the instruments the music was composed on.
Dick subbed the case work out to me and it was quite an experience. Tolerences were 1/80". The entire case was made from spruce so the joinery had to be perfect to withstand the tension of the strings. Steinway figured out how useful iron could be but that didn't happen for years after these forte pianos were being built and used. So, I'd build the cases and send them on to Dick for the guts, the veneering and the finishing. At about two a year it was one of the more pleasurable things I've lost money doing.
1/80"?? Yup, here's another measuring sysyem and it works quite well. Dick would never read a tape past eighths. He'd divide each eighth into ten points. I'd get measurements like 38 and 2.3/8 (thirty eight and two point three eighths) It was surprisingly accurate and a hell of a lot easier than reading down to 64ths and beyond. Heck, I still can't find sixty fourths on my tape, not that I'd care to.
Yup, instrument making is a field unto itsef. We lived in Salt Lake City for a while and in Salt Lake there was a well respected violin maker's school. Every year after graduation I'd have a couple of graduates bang on my door looking for work. They didn't know squat about making cabinets, mouldings, furniture, you know, all the stuff that paid my bills and I never hired one but I could have learned a world of skills if I'd have had need of a violin maker. I've known a few instrument makers and to get good at either furniture or instruments you have to choose one or the other because they will consume you.
Hey Jon, When do I get to see your dulcimers? Did you folks know that Jon makes them? There, now you're out of the closet, Jon.
Lee Lee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
Mark, that was LOL funny!
Lee, no, I'm not an instrument maker; the Stradivarius thing is a (probably) short-term fascination. I just love to learn. Gaining knowledge is, to me, more enjoyable than employing that knowledge. So, I've learned how to play the piano, throw pots, solve math problems, spin yarn, weave, etc.--jack of all trades, master of none.
I also like puzzles and brainteasers, as long as I have a reasonable chance of solving them on my own or being told the answers. For that same reason, I can't stand magic shows. It drives me crazy, not being able to figure out how the magicians do their tricks. And of course, they will never tell their secrets. The Stradivarius thing comes dangerously close to driving me nuts. I just hope that Prof. Navygary figures out the secret first.
Janet
Gosh, I'm relieved to hear that you took my post as it was intended - a joke. I was beginning to think it would be perceived as some kind of affront, which definitely was not intended. Thank you for your sense of humor.
I empathize with your fascination with learning because I feel exactly the same way. I want to know how and why everything works as it does. It can be frustrating, but it's always interesting.
The Stradivarius thing comes dangerously close to driving me nuts. I just hope that Prof. Navygary figures out the secret first.
I don't have enough imagination to understand how knowing the "secret" of one physical element of a complex problem is going to solve anything. Maybe you can help me out.
Suppose you knew the "secret" of the wood used in Cremona instruments. Knew it to any level of detail you want--cellular, molecular, atomic, even quarks and gluons, if that is your wish. What would you do with this information? Would you then know how to make a complete translation from wood properties to sound properties? Could Prof. Navygary then make instruments that are the equivalent of those from the Cremona geniuses?
How many "secrets" would one have to know before decomposing the problem to one of simple mechanics? Knowing these "secrets", could one then set up a factory to manufacture instruments "just as good" as the Strads?
I think it is our innate curiosity about things we don't understand. How did those Cremonese craftsman produce such wonderful instruments? And how did they do it several hundred years ago without all of our new, best, improved, modern, high tech tools and methods? Some old secrets may have gone to the grave with the originating craftsmen, but some may still be out there. Does anyone have a recipe for 'Vernice Martine'? I am still looking for that one!
Stephen Shepherd
http://www.ilovewood.com
Janet, thanks for the great lunchtime read. I esp liked the part about the dancing glitter--how ingenious.
You must have toddlers at home to be so patient. I cut my pets a lot of slack, but then i don't expect them to grow out of it.
To answer your question:
Composition of wood:
50% Cellulose
15% - 30% Hemicellulose
15% - 35% Lignin
5% - 30% Ash and extractives
The reference: http://www.logcareproducts.com/manufacturers/sikkens/slideshow/tsld004.html
Ash is part of a tree? Before it has been burned?
How are the dark rings different from the stuff between the rings? And which rings are older, the inside or outside?
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled