Replies

1. 
   derekcohen | May 21, 2009 05:53pm | #1

   Waterstones or oilstones?

   Oil in waterstones is bad news. I'm not sure if you can get it out.

   Others will chip in regarding oilstones. Both, however, may be flattened with a coarse diamond stone (275 grit).

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   [email protected] | May 22, 2009 01:33am | #3

   good question which is better oil or water? would kerosene be better to "wash" them in first before soaking

1. 
   derekcohen | May 22, 2009 11:11am | #4

   I suspect that you have oilstones - I have heard of some (not done this myself) washing them in the dishwasher.

   I am sceptical of handling waterstones roughly. They are held together with a clay binder. Certainly I also use soap and water on mine, and detergent might remove some grime. However oil tends to seep in quite deeply in my experience (more so with the coarser, more porous stones), which is why I wrote earlier that it is hard to remove oil from them. Others may, however, have used other methods more effectively. Kero? I don't know. If anyone does it would be Philip Marcou since I recall he used this in place of water on his.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   Tony Z | May 22, 2009 03:48pm | #5

   If any oil on them, you may not want to do them in the dishwasher!!!!  About a year or so ago, I put a couple of stones in our dishwasher, when everyone but me was out (the stones were oilstones, by the way).  Yes, it did get them clean........but, it left an oily film and smell to the dishwasher that caused me more work to clean than just putzing with the stones.  For oilstones, I used oven cleaner, with the stones in the hot sun and then a rinse in very hot water.

   I have also heard of a woodworker putting stones in the diswasher and somehow cyling the thing with lacquer thinner.  The thinner drained into the drain pipes, but on the way destroyed all plastic connectors/piping on the way.  Don't know if this is true or not, but don't try it!  Maybe something for Mythbusters????

   T.Z.

1. 
   dkellernc | May 22, 2009 05:22pm | #6

   "I have also heard of a woodworker putting stones in the diswasher and somehow cyling the thing with lacquer thinner.  The thinner drained into the drain pipes, but on the way destroyed all plastic connectors/piping on the way.  Don't know if this is true or not, but don't try it!  Maybe something for Mythbusters????"

   I suppose this is obvious, but doing something like this would be incredibly dangerous.  Dishwashers aren't explosion-proofed and have motors that generate sparks, and the enclosed environment of the washer is essentially setting up a fuel-air explosive.  One might get lucky and have too much laquer thinner vapor so that the gas phase is above the upper explosion limit, but then again, one might not.

   My other thought is that you wouldn't want to cycle a honing stone through a dishwasher anyway.  Besides contaminating the washer with oil, it's probably not good to subject the stones to the shock of hot/cold water.

   By the way - while kerosene will dissolve certain types of oils, laquer thinner's far more effective if one wants to remove deeply-embedded oils and greases.  Not only is the laquer thinner a more effective solvent, it's also got a much lower viscosity, and will penetrate the pores of the stone much better.

2. 
   Wingdoctor | May 22, 2009 05:34pm | #7

   That sounds like something that Tim "The Tool Man" would try. LOL

   I can remember the episode where Tim was trying to figure out a way to cook fish in the dishwasher. Nedless to saw he made a bunch of messes and never got any edible fish!

   We just got a new dishwasher and if I put anything in there beside dishes and the proper detergent SWMBO would be hot!!

   Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan

3. 
   joinerswork | May 23, 2009 07:03am | #8

   Wing,

   Tim's crazy.  Everyone knows the way to cook fish is on your neighbor's car's exhaust manifold.

   Ray

4. 
   Wingdoctor | May 23, 2009 03:28pm | #10

   I have actually seen that recomended on an old 50's travel program. The old straight six's with the exhaust manifold straight out to the side before it turned down, to wrap the fish in layers of aluminum foil and tying it to the manifold to cook for 50 miles or so.

   But it would be better on the neighbors car!!

   Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan

2. 
   philip | May 23, 2009 11:19am | #9

   Derek and Medi,
   I use kerosene on my Kingstone and any other artificial oilstone only-for honing not cleaning.
   I have removed oil and gunk from a few natural water stones by soaking in mineral turpentine. Lacquer thinners also works. But a good rev with a coarse diamond plate goes a long way towards removing scum and restoring stones.
   I have not tried caustic soda but suspect this may damage a natural stone . Maybe would damage a man made water stone ? If it has no side effects it would do the job in short order.
   Putting lacquer thinners etc into dishwashers is plain crazy.Philip Marcou

   Edited 5/23/2009 4:23 am by philip

1. 
   dkellernc | May 23, 2009 05:42pm | #11

   I  have not tried caustic soda but suspect this may damage a natural stone . Maybe would damage a man made water stone ?

   Highly alkaline solutions may indeed damage both natural and man-made waterstones.  It's unlikely to mess up the grit, which as I understand it is largely silica, but could easily damage the matrix - a lot of the natural materials contain carbonates.

2. 
   philip | May 23, 2009 11:49pm | #12

   I think I will test it out, since I have pieces of both artificial and natural stones-and a very strong caustic soda solution which comes in handy now and then. Standby.Philip Marcou

3. 
   dkellernc | May 24, 2009 03:31pm | #13

   Correction on the "I don't think it will damage the grit, as it's largely silica".  I pulled  a "senior moment" on this, and had forgotten that exposing high-surface area silica to alkaline solutions over a pH of about 8.3 or so will dissolve it.  Caustic soda (the casual name for sodium hydroxide - another one's "lye") is most definitely far above a pH of 8.3 - how fast it would dissolve silica would depend on the alkalinity of the solution (i.e., the concentration of the lye).

   I found out about this from column chromatography (though fortunately not by personal experience) - those very expensive little tubes of crushed sand used in just about every chemistry laboratory in the world these days won't tolerate high pH - the packing material winds up in the waste bottle.

4. 
   [email protected] | May 26, 2009 10:07pm | #14

   tried the oven cleaner on one of the  smaller stones put it in the sun and let it set for about 30 minutes , presto polishing compound ,it fell apart. I due not know if it was a combination of cleaning compounds or age or??

5. 
   philip | May 26, 2009 11:38pm | #15

   I think DKellernc is correct about the Sodium Hydroxide aka caustic soda or lye attacking either or both silica and the binding agent - so just stick to a solvents such as lacquer thinners mineral turps, kerosene etc. I haven't tested it .
   I can vouch that kerosene is beneficial to use on Kingstones and I much prefer it to water: but this may not apply to all man made stones, and certainly not natural ones.Philip Marcou

6. 
   dkellernc | May 28, 2009 04:55pm | #16

   Philip - I checked up on my memory of the chemistry here (admittedly really bad - good thing to still have those graduate student books still lying around).  Silica (Si-O-Si-, etc...) does indeed start to break down into silicon hydroxide and silicon hydrates above pH 8.3, and lye (NaOH) is most definitely up there - about pH 14.

   However, some of the sources I checked noted that the speed of dissolution of solid silica substrates depends greatly on the particle size, purity of the silica, friability of the substrate, etc...

   And I did find a reference in Toshio Odate's book that the grit in Japanese waterstones is indeed silica, as is the grit in an Arkansas oilstone in the mineral Novaculite.  Obviously, this is all academic as I doubt someone would want to use a compound on a honing stone that even has a chance of breaking it down, but thought someone reading this might be interested in the chemistry.

7. 
   philip | May 28, 2009 11:34pm | #17

   Thanks- I am interested in the chemistry most of which I had forgotten.
   I am now tempted to think that caustic soda could be used as a "fast fix" much the same way as one can use it to clean aluminium ie quickly before it dissolves (;)Philip Marcou

8. 
   dkellernc | May 29, 2009 06:00pm | #19

   "I am now tempted to think that caustic soda could be used as a "fast fix" much the same way as one can use it to clean aluminium ie quickly before it dissolves"

   Yeah, I certainly think that could work, as the top surface of the stone would be dissolved, taking the gunk and leftover rust particles with it.  The trick is to do it quickly, as the edges of the stone would be the first to go, and too long of a soak would leave you with either a lot of flattening to do, or rounded edges on the stone (not that that would be a bad thing).

9. 
   davcefai | Jun 06, 2009 11:31pm | #24

   I doubt that caustic soda will remove mineral oils or grease. It removes oils and fats of biological origin because these are esters which are hydrolysed by the soda.When degreasing new process plant one has to use degreasing detergents which, in fact, do not have a high pH and are surfactants.Has anybody tried washing up liquid? It worked for me once when I tried it. I soaked an oilstone overnight in a strong washing up liquid solution and it came out looking rather better (and cutting better too).

10. 
    Tony Z | May 29, 2009 03:38pm | #18

    I've had good luck with oven cleaner on oilstones I've purchased and have not seen deteriation on any.  Basically the same process you used:  spray, leave in the hot sun and rinse.  Does a pretty good job.

    T.Z.

11. 
    shakychisel | Jun 06, 2009 11:50am | #22

    Hi Philip,

    How about 'un-natural' water stones? I have some Jap stones,but I think they are manufactured.Have you any leads there? [Don't know how the oil got there,tho']

    Robin 

2. 
   dkellernc | May 21, 2009 07:10pm | #2

   You can get the oil out of waterstones by soaking them in laquer thinner.  That's after you remove the surface dirt and grease with water and dishwashing soap.  The soap will not hurt the waterstones, and the soak in laquer thinner will remove all traces.  After you get them reasoanbly clean, you can flatten them out with some coarse wet/dry sandpaper and a flat surface.  Most of us use the elcheapo granite surface plates sold by Woodcraft, but you can also use the outfeed table of a jointer, one of the cast iron wings from a table saw, a piece of granite countertop, or a piece of float glass.  All will work perfectly well for the purpose.

   If you have a diamond stone, those are also used frequently for waterstone preparation.

   Once you clean the surface gunk off of them, post a photo.  Knotters may be able to tell you whether you truly have a waterstone or an oilstone.

3. 
   sk2tobin | Jun 01, 2009 06:13pm | #20

   Medicrs,

   Not too sure about cleaning them but to flatten them you can use a piece of granite.  Almost any contractor that uses granite will be happy to give you a piece of scrap.  I got mine from a company who installs granite counter tops and they were just going to throw it away so when I showed up they let me take as many of the offcuts as I wanted.  Take the granite with some spray adhesive (the 3M stuff works pretty good) and glue some sandpaper down to the granite.  This is nice and cheap way of getting either an oil or waterstone nice and flat.

   Nick

1. 
   philip | Jun 02, 2009 11:12am | #21

   Yes, this will flatten them, not very fast but it will do it.
   But it will not do something which I think is of more importance: condition the stone so that it cuts efficiently. Anything but the coarsest grit will surely glaze the stone. What is the use of a flat stone that can't cut properly?Philip Marcou

4. 
   KeithNewton | Jun 06, 2009 02:58pm | #23

   I Clamp an old piece of 6" wide sanding belt from my stroke sander over the table saw wing to scrub my bread-loaf size water stone when it needs truing up. It cuts fast and easy.