To All,
There have been several threads here about the circular saw/guide systems that are currently available, especially Festool and the EZ Smart systems.
The maker of the EZ Smart system feels that his tool can replace the table saw and that it is much safer to use for ripping operations.
I have no argument about the quality, mechanical ingenuity, accuracy or other virtues of either of these systems. I probably will buy the EZ Smart system soon. I have no intention of starting a comparison between these systems.
My question has nothing to do with the systems themselves, but with the circular saws. Of course, with the Festool, only that saw can be used, but with the EZ Smart, almost any CS can be used. The CS/guide systems are great for sheet goods, and on the EZ Smart web site, there are lots of videos showing it ripping and cross-cutting what appears to be soft wood.
I certainly accept that a modern CS can handle sheet goods well, and can rip your average fir construction stock, 1x and 2x. But does anyone have any experience using either of these systems to do any serious woodworking with hardwood? Day in, day out?
After all, the construction of a circular saw’s arbor and frame, compared to the mass of the arbor assembly and table of a table saw is so puny as to make the comparison absurd. Can the CS hold its saw blade adequately stable during the cut as to make highly accurate work in hardwood possible?
Any experience and feedback appreciated.
Rich
Replies
It's really going to depend on the particular saw and blade. I wouldn't expect a $40.00 circular saw from a big box to stand up, day to day, cutting anything, but many do. I've used my PC saw cutting masonry all day, many days. Hardwood is like buttah in comparison. There isn't any problem and little difference between sheetgoods and solid lumber, soft or hard. When framing, I regularly cut as many sheets of plywood and OSB as the blade will reach through, stacking four together and cutting all at once. You have to slow down a little.
One of the more important aspects of a saw is how well the base plate and the blade align. Some saw guides may have an adjustability factor so that the blade and straight edge can be aligned. Some of the systems have plates that you add to your saw and these run in the guide.
With cabinet grade plywood, that I don't want to handle full size on the table saw, I just zip a piece off, following a pencil line, more or less. I don't worry if the edge is crooked or splintered since I will be cutting that off later. I just want the sheet a little lighter. It's not unusual for me to need 20 sheets on a small job. I can't be bothered messing with guides and straight edges. When I do final sizing I want to use the table saw. I can set the fence, jig or whatever I'm using and cut 100's of pieces that will all be identical. The slightest variation is going to create extra work later on and I can't afford that.
If you don't have a table saw and want to use a saw and guide system, there are plenty of saws that can do the job. Finding the good blades can be a challenge. I don't think too many jobs will go by before you want a table saw.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Rich
I have the festool TS55 with a 110" guide (actually, (2) 55"guides joined together, to be correct here.) I purchased the saw to process sheet goods, as my business is 85% cabinet work. I work almost exclusively with hardwood stock in cherry, maple, and walnut that I mill from logs to lumber, and dry myself. Most of the time, it has live edges, and I used to snap a chalk line along one edge, and run it through the band saw to get a reasonable straight edge that I could joint. I now lay the Festool guide along one edge and make the cut with the saw. The quality of cut is very good, and I've had no problems doing this. With 8/4 stock, I do have to make sure I don't go toooooooo fast, but it's still not a problem for the saw to handle.
Regardless or which system you choose, if you get a good CS, with a good quality rip blade, you should have no problems working with hardwood stock.
Jeff
Rich,
I suggest the DeWalt 364. This is a big heavy saw. I learned about it via a FWW website article on the use of circular saws in the serious workshop. They recommended it because it if VERY adjustable. You should look up that article. They give good ideas for cutting large panels, etc.
This is not a saw that you want to carry in one hand and use while climbing a ladder! It has about the biggest base in the business. I am merely a hobbyist, but I can't find anything bad to say about this saw. I use plywood fences and T-squares to do crosscutting. Hope this helps.
I believe that I have seen posts in Knots by the guy who is head of the FWW shop. If you could find his name and contact him, you could get some advice that is more "professional" than mine.
Enjoy. Let us know what you come up with.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I drew back on the EZ system, because it was hard for me to believe that a plain old CS could render the same cut quality as the $430 Festool CS.
But it apparently can, as many EZ users will testify. See the concurrent thread at Breaktime:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79700.1
In fact Dino claims he uses a $10 blade (Freud, I think), but if I had an EZ I would be tempted to buy something better.
You must have (or buy) a right blade CS -- and Dino's favorites are the PC and Hilti -- Both can be hooked up to a vac, and I believe the Hilti has a slightly greater cutting depth capacity (than other 7 1/4" saws) allowing you to cut through 2X material. Otherwise, you need a bigger 8 1/4" saw (Bosch is recommended by users) for cutting stuff like 1 3/4" doors.
I know it defies logic that any circ saw can give a finished cut on hardwood ply. You might want to check the Breaktime thread, and pose the same question there to see what actual EZ users have to say.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
A good circular saw (15 + amps ) spinning a thin kerf blade (24 teeth) at 5600 + RPM cuts hardwoods better than any tablesaw.
Repeat and narrow cuts are now possible with the ez system.
Sliding the saw on the track is much easier, safer and even faster than pushing the wood into a spinning blade.
David.
I bought the portercable CS with magnesium base (left hand). I mated that with a Forrest 7 1/4 blade and use a tru-grip and cut perfect splinter free cuts. I got the combination to cut ply down to size. It's not as convenient as a panel saw but it has been error free. When it says its 5" from edge of base to blade it's dead on. I use it all the time. I do not use it for construction stuff. I have an old skill and B&D for the rough stuff with the oldham $7 blade. Take care
I have a basic EZ system, PC Mag with Freud Diablo blade. I recently needed to edge joint some 7' long 5/4 oak boards. I set up the EZ and ripped a strip off with a glue joint edge. Not implying that this is any better than Festool - just pointing out that it can be done with a GSS.
I wish now that I had bought a bigger saw - Hilti or Bosch.
Thanks for the replies everyone. (and I hope there are more.)This is all very reassuring. I have a 14 amp Ryobi with a Diablo blade that seems to do a very respectable job ("freehand") on sheet goods. The cut edges are glue joint smooth. Of course, there is a lot of chipping as there is no support of the cut edge like the EZ Smart or Festool systems provide. Haven't tried it with hardwood at all. I don't think this saw would hold up to a lot of hard use, though. I think it cost about $75 about a year ago.I've looked at the PC Mag, blade right model. Haven't had an opportunity to look at the Hilti yet.Rich
Rich14,
Even though you say you don't want to start a comparison between Festool and EZ Smart, it's unavoidable with the way you state your question.
I've written often here on Knots and elsewhere that there does not need to be a "Festool versus EZ Smart" debate. The two are not necessarily competing with each other!
Let's be clear about this:
EZ Smart makes a guide-rail system. They sell guide rails that work on other manufacturer's saws or routers. So, when we talk about the "EZ system," we're talking about guide rails.
Festool makes a lineup of tools. They sell circular saws, jig saws, and routers, all of which operate on the Festool guide rails. So when we are talking about the "Festool system," we're talking about a whole system of tools, along with the guide rails.
This is not a judgement, just a statement of fact.
But then we get into the realm of opinion...Some people say that EZ Smart is better because it allows you to use any saw or router you want. With the Festool system, you need to use Festool saws and routers with their guide rails. Depending on how you feel, you might think this is a disadvantage or an advantage. Personally, I think that Festool saws are better than anything else I've ever seen, so for me it's no advantage to be able to use any saw on the market! But that's a value judgement.
But you said you're mainly interested in discussing the saws. Well, EZ Smart does not make saws, so we can't discuss their saws!
Festool makes what most of us think of as a circular saw. It looks like a circular saw, but it's quite different. First, it's got a plunge action, hence it's name, "plunge saw." When you start cutting, you push the saw blade down into the wood. When you're done cutting, the blade retracts into the saw body. Next, the Festool plunge saws have excellent dust extraction. It really works. When hooked up to a dust extractor, you get nearly 100% dust collection. Next, the Festool saw's accuracy is very high. And Festool saws make splinter-free cuts. With the Festool guide rails, you can make cuts exceeding those of a table saw.
But you ask whether a circular saw can make hardwood cuts as reliably as a table saw. I do this all the time with my Festool saw. I wouldn't say I do it "day in and day out," since I'm not a professional woodworker. But I know of many top-notch professionals who do use their Festool saws day in and day out.
You say, "a circular saw's arbor and frame, compared to the mass of the arbor assembly and table of a table saw is so puny as to make the comparison absurd." But you're thinking of most circular saws on the market today. The Festool plunge saws are a whole different game. They do provide the stability, accuracy, and power needed for hardwood cutting, and the results are not just as good as a table saw cut -- they are better.
I use my Festool setup for precise crosscutting and ripping all the time. The one operation I cannot do with my Festool saw is compound mitering. (You can't do this with the EZ Smart system either.)
If you just look at the Festool saws, you may be tempted to compare them to other circular saws, but you need to give them a try to realize they are quite different. I would suggest going to your local Woodcraft store and asking to give the Festool saws a trial run. That's the best way to understand the difference.
Edited 10/13/2006 9:06 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Like you Matthew, I've posted on the benefits of the Festool system. If I had a series of high quality portable tools, say a Triton or PC 7518 router, a great DeWalt jig saw, etc. I would not want to trade in such expensive and excellent tools just for a guide, and the EZ Smart system is no doubt the correct choice.I am willing to bet that most people have a lower end circular saw than router. For one reason, there are more good routers out there, and it does seem as though there is a bigger investment in research and technology on routers and jig saws than a plain ol' circular saw. Like a table saw, if you want to improve the cut, it starts with the blade. Anyone who says they get large amounts of perfect cuts with a $10 blade is cutting pine, then waking up from their dreams. The Festool SAW is what makes it so good, since it's the only one with a splitter, and it's balance and dust collection is so good. Also, the unsung heroes of Festool is the blade. They make GREAT blades; their jigsaw blades are som much better than the Bosch blades I used to use. I've used my Festool saw and guide (with the appropriate blade) to cut veneer (that takes some extra wood and careful planning), 8/4 maple with no burning, and lots of moldings at angles.So I agree, the argument of Festool vs. EZ Smart doesn't really apply. If you want Festool, the guide works with all their saws and routers, the EZ Smart works well with all the others. So they both make great guides, and it's a good thing we have several companies that care about quality.
Daryl,
Yes, I should have mentioned the fact that the Festool saw has a riving knife -- another feature that is not found on any other circular saw.And yes, the Festool saw blades are a resource most people never mention. I think when most people see the price on Festool saw blades, they think the blades must be inferior. They think, "How can a $35 blade be that good." But it is. It's amazing how good the Festool blades are.
Correction: The Hilti 267E also has a riving knife.
(You can't do this with the EZ Smart system either.)
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=42941
Edited 10/13/2006 9:53 pm ET by davidwood
Where on your spam/thread link does it show compound mitering?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter West
Another possibility is to replace the Square with a Stop that can be set at angles off the vertical. This would facilitate the cutting of Mortice and Tenon for joints when the Styles/Rails need to be other than 90 degrees to each other. Good example Peter and easy to do with the current setup. Here are some more capabilities pics with the guide rail tilted for sawing angled cuts.1. the arms that attach the rails can be pivoted in any directionthe rail was tilted to allow for an angled cut2. the setup was moved to the edge of the table so we didn't cut into the tabletop3. the tilted rail facilitated a perfect angled cutwhat is the advantage of tilting the rail as opposed to simply tilting the saw? Well tilting the rail allows you to keep the white antichip edge and use it as your cut line4. several cuts were made; you can see one cutoff sitting on top of the rail5. the cuts were extremely clean as expected but Dino pointed out that we were using an old framing bladecont...
David,
I'd like to see someone cut a set of crown moldings using the setup you just described.I hope one day there is a way to cut crown molding on a guide-rail system. For now, I still need my CMS to do this!
The rail tilts and rotates at any angle.
Post 22 and 23 on the same link.
David.
David,
I still stand by my statement. That post shows someone making a simple bevel cut. I don't see any proof of the accuracy of the cut. In any case, I'm not talking about a bevel, I'm talking about a compount miter, like in crown molding. I'd love to see anyone try cutting crown molding with a guide-rail system.By the way, looking at the discussion you link us to, I think it's interesting that even Dino was dubious!Cutting compound miters, or even bevels, is the weakness of guide rail systems, at least for now.
Edited 10/14/2006 8:38 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Matthew.
If you don't want to see it...you don't.
Cutting compound miters, or even bevels, is the weakness of guide rail systems, at least for now.
It was the weakness. No more.
Same with narrow and repeat cuts, 2 axis routing and setup time.
You need to take a look at the ez system and the Dead Wood Concept with an open mind.
David.
PS.
Compound miter. (Bevel and miter)
1. The tilting rail gives you the bevel. (unlimited)
(the saw stays at 90 for better stability)
2. Miter comes from positioning the materials or miter the rails. (360)
3. Accuracy and Safety comes from the Dead Wood Concept.
(The materials are under pressure)
Speed comes from unlimited capacity and the new ez smart table setup.
David.
Mathew,
Lets reduce this to Festool Terms. Set up your MFT for a miter cut. Then tilt the rail to come up with a bevel. This combination using appropriate angles equals a compound miter for cutting crown molding.
Burt
Burts,
Like I said, I'd be thrilled to be wrong about this. Like you, I'd love to have a guide rail that can cut compound miters, especially in crown moldings.Show me a situation where it's been done.
Matt,
Your middle name must be Thomas and you must come from Missouri
Dino has the hardware in hand and has done some cuts like this. It will take a little while to come up with a commerical version.
I personally have a version of a square/rail combo that uses a Incra miter gauge to set the angles. All it takes is to add the proper tilt (bevel) and you can cut a joint for crown molding.
I'm not sure this will work with the Festool rail. I believe they may have to much flex for it to work.
The photo that David offered showed proof of the bevel. The angle is simple.
There is so much happening in the development of uses for the guide system right now that it is almost impossible to keep up with it. I'm especially excited about the new table. It is going to do so many things well and offer such ease of expansion. There is also improvements on the way for the repeaters.
Burt
Edited 10/14/2006 6:42 pm ET by Burts
Edited 10/14/2006 8:16 pm ET by Burts
Burt,Of course I'm doubtful! I'm always doubtful of any claim from any company, until I see the procedure myself, or see it documented clearly.
You and I seem to be agreeing here. You said yourself that compound miter cuts with a guide-rail system are still in the experimental stage. In other words, as far as compound mitering goes, guide rail systems are not yet a viable alternative to the CMS or SCMS.
Let's be clear. It's one thing to set up a guide rail to cut a bevel, then switch it around to cut a miter. I cut reliable miters all the time with my Festool guide rails on the MFT; and I cut bevels with the Festool saw all the time. But it's a whole other thing to use this setup to produce accurate compound miters, as in crown molding.
As I said, I'd be thrilled to see a guide system can be used for making compound miter cuts.
In the meantime, why don't you post a photo or two of the setup you have? Show us how you cut a compound miter in crown molding. Show us how you make the cuts, and then show us how the pieces are joined in a project.
By the way, I have a few Incra tools and find them to be terrific.
Matthew,
Just because this is an impossible task for Festool (the rails aren't strong enough), Don't say it is impossible.
I run a full time cabinet shop so my development time is limited. I am not a part of the search for the Miter saw capability. I do talk regularly with those who are doing the work and have seen their photo's. Just be patient, stay tuned, and save your money for a EZ Smart that can cut miters and do stuff that you can't even imagine!!
I have the MFT so I asked DIno about adapting the Miter setup to it. He says no problem. Dino is making tools for all users. Festool and EZ Smart users can benefit from the new inventions.
Edited 10/14/2006 10:00 pm ET by Burts
Burts,
I didn't say it's impossible, just not currently possible. There are some very intelligent people working at EZ Smart and Festool, and I'm sure they are coming up with all kinds of amazing things.Whether it's Festool or EZ Smart that achieves this breakthrough, I'd love to see it happen, because cutting compound miters has long been the one weakness of the guide-rail system.You and I agree that developments in either company benefit everyone. If EZ Smart creates a guide-rail system that can work with the MFT, I'd be thrilled. Likewise, EZ Smart users can benefit from using a Festool saw on the EZ rails.I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the future is bright for this kind of woodworking.
sorry, i responded to your first post before i finished reading the thread. i didn't realize you were talking about cutting crown molding.
not sure why anyone would want to use anythign but a Compound Miter Saw to cut crown moulding.
seems like a case of trying to use the wrong tool to me...i'm sure with enough thought and effort I could figure out a way to cut crown moulding with a cut off wheel chucked in my drill press, but at the end of the day I'm sure the question would be...why didn't you just use a compound miter saw....
I stand by my statement that the rail and saw system is the best way i know to cut compound miters in large panels....
As for using the rail system instead of a compound miter saw, it would be much safer. The basic concept of the rail system is to make woodworking safer. The miter saw is a dangerous tool. I saw a thread on SawMill creek where a portion of the miter saw broke and it cost the guy a couple fingers and a portion of his hand.
The rail system as being developed by EZ Smart will eventually replace many of the tools we now use. The idea is to mamke woodworking safe and easy.
great...maybe we can use use it as a lath and a shaper and a sander....
there are differnt tools for a reason.......
I'm sure that your comment was made in jest but I've seen and/or discussed the possibility of how to accomplish all three functions with the guided Systems.
As for the shaper function, the closest I know of anyone coming to that is using the guided system to make raised panels and moldings. Since multiple passes are easy complex shapes are very possible.
As for the lathe, there some ideas being worked that will give the same results even though the approach is quite different.
As for the sander, I've seen a patent for that one.
Matthew,
Yes the future is bright.
I like the way I see EZ Smart working directly with the consumer to develop what we need. One real strength of EZ Smart, the Company, at this point is the company is small enough to be able to respond almost immediately to the needs of the consumer. While EZ Smart is in a number of countries, all of the research and development is being done in the US. Also all of the EZ Products are made in the US.
Edited 10/16/2006 6:55 am ET by Burts
David,
Again, I stand by my statement.Of course, theoretically you can tilt a guide rail and turn the wood to get a bevel and a miter. But the question is, when you're done do you actually have a compound miter? By that I mean a cut (say in crown molding) that actually comes together in a real-world situation?Someone show me a set of crown moldings cut with EZ, or any guide rail. I'd be thrilled to be wrong about this. But until someone shows me the evidence, I hold that compound miters are not currently a reality on guide-rail systems.
David,
I don't understand what your last post was about. My comment was about compound mitering. This is an operation that, as far as I know, cannot be done on a guide-rail system of any kind.I read the post you linked to and I don't see any comments on compound mitering.
"The one operation I cannot do with my Festool saw is compound mitering."
not sure what you mean by can't do compound mitering....you can place the rail at an angle other than perpendicular to the edge of the workpiece, and you can tilt the saw on it's base...isn't that a compound miter?
i agree this would pretty much suck for cutting narrow stock, but it is about the best way i can think of to perform this opperation on sheetgoods....
I am a EZ Smart user but use a variety of circular saws - Festool, Hilti, BOsch, Porter Cable, Dewalt, Craftsman, Makita, etc. Most of these have adequate power to handle hadwood. My opinion is that Hilti makes the best saw - All the better features of the Festool plus it has power. Most of the better circular saws on the market have either 13 or 15 amp motors. The 55 series from Festool has a 10 amp motor. From my personal experience, the smaller Festool does not have adequate power for hardwood. I have no experience with the 75 series of Festool saws. These are 13 amp and based on my experience with other saws should be adequate.
I've often heard Festool users speak of the superior cut of their saws. I haven't experienced it. Don't get me wrong Festool makes a good cut but so does several other saws.
Dino, the owner of EZ Smart, has a standard challenge on the table. $5,000 to anyone who can make better and faster cuts than the EZ Smart. A third party such as breaktime would make the cut list. I can't understand why some Festool owner wouldn't like to have $5,000.
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