Fellow lovers of wood. It is time to retire my Dewalt DW744 for a table saw with more precision, especially in the fence. Top runners appear to be Powernatic, Jet, Delta. I would like to hear from others about their saws, why they love them, why they hate them, and what the best on the market is, and why.
Thank you.
Replies
I have a Delta Unisaw R/T & a 30 year old Powermatic 66. I very happy with both of them.
Consider the Grizzly 1023. Its a heck of a saw and will keep a littly jingle in the pocket.
Powermatic 66's are a great saw with the Biesmyer fence (the 50"er)especially with the 5hp, but the 3hp does well. ~Z~
The PM66 has my vote too. Due to space, I've only got the 30" 3HP version, but love it.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
SWEEeeeeeet!!
I have the jet with the built in router lift. It is a terrific saw.
Are you moving past the contractors saw to a full-fledged cabinet saw? or are you budgeted for a contractors saw?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Good to hear from a lady woodworker. I made a call to Ed at Woodworker's Supply, the resident table saw expert and overall great guy, and ended up ordering the Delta Unisaw, 3HP with 50" capacity. On sale. So, unless I hear something dreadful about Delta, looks as though I am committed.Thanks for all of your helpful comments. I will let you know if I'm still happy in a month or two.
capn John,
Goodluck with Delta.. I had terrible experiance with mine and wound up giving it away! Real P.O.S. I Wound up buying Grizzly been very happy with it..
I'd be curious about what problems you had, and when you bought your Delta-Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"unless I hear something dreadful about Delta...." Oh boy, Frenchy's got his chance now.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
All I can say now is, "Bring it on." Ordered the Delta Unisaw, 50" yesterday. Woodworker's was having a sale. Committed.
I'll be surprised if the Unisaw disappoints you! Will be looking for your report.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have no budget, ten thousand dollars are more is possible.
Donny, are you an alternate personality for capn john, or did I miss something?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey, Girl. Been away for a couple of days and missed some of the action.The reference to Donny being my alter-ego? What is that all about? Should one us get upset?The thread is up to 68. Holy cow! I started that?For those of you who are interested, I've put the Uni on hold. Going down to VA on Monday to put my hands on a General [cabinet saw]. This place has both the General and the Deltas on display so I can get up close and personal. Just to muddy the waters, has anyone ever heard of Oliver Machinery? Their advertising states that their machines are " . . . the benchmark for quality machines around the world." Been making them since 1892 in good ol' Grand Rapids, MI.Jeez. I really need to get a life.Interesting comments about the DPs. As I recall, all of the older [good] Craftsman power tools were made by Chicago Electric. Now, of course, Ryobi. If you are an older Craftsman fan, don't fret, Chicago Electric now makes the Rigid stuff. Or so I'm told.Somebody should take all of these opinions and break it all down to numbers like they do in the buyer's guide. PM 4.38, Delta 4.48, General, whatever.I noticed that everyone has cute sayings at the end of their posts. My building buddy and I, comprising "Blind Squirrel Builders" (you know, even a blind squirrel finds his nuts once in awhile), are always saying that the first cut of the day is always wrong. Throw it away. Anyone else have that problem? We tried cutting waste stock to get it out of our systems, but it never worked. Always screwed up the first board.Cheers.
Welcome back, Capn! Yep, you started it -- didn't know you had such "draw" didya?
I dunno, "donny" replied to a post I made to you, saying that he had "no budget" for his saw. Got me real confused.
You should get plenty of input about the Oliver brand. I've certainly heard of them, but they're pretty out of my league, LOL. Speaking of laughing, that Blind Squirrel thing's pretty funny!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Well, folks do remember me. To find out about my company and me, visit chesapeakeyachtsystems.com. I've just started blogging, so that's kind of fun, too.I look forward to the Oliver comments, but the reality is I've narrowed it down to General or Delta. Spoke with a woodworker friend who hails from VA. He reports that in his club, they are both well respected. It is all going to come down to the fence, me thinketh. In my humble opinion, that is the perhaps one of the most important parts of the saw. Guess I got that from my bad experiences with the old Craftsman.Great chatting with you all.
I purchased a Delta Unisaw about 5 years ago and gave my Craftsman to my son. I could not be happier. My friend bought a Powermatic 66 (I think) that was about $300 more than the Delta. He thinks the Delta runs smoother and I can't see anything on his that makes me wish I had the Powermatic. At the Woodworking shows I asked how a Powermatic is better and was told the castings are larger and that may be true but the Delta is a great saw.
Thank you for the reinforcement, Erik. Ed, Woodworker's resident table saw guru, told me that if you look inside the saws, they both look the same (PM v. Delta). From what I have learned so far, it seems you and I made the right choice.I am also looking forward to trying the right tilt blade.Have a great day.
Can I ask why you would want a right tilt blade? When you tilt to the right you lock your work between the blade and fence. If you have a problem there is no where for the wood to go but back at you. With a left tilt blade the wood can lift up without being trapped. I could never understand why someone would want a right tilt so I am looking forward to your reply. I am sure there are reasons that I am not aware of.
For miters and other angles you attach a sacrificial fence (3/4" stock is fine, thicker is better) to the main fence and leave a space at the bottom for the off cut to slide into. Set it 11/16 off the table for 3/4 material...7/16 for half, etc. Or use a copycat jig, same difference. Will attach a pic later...Jimmy
I have asked that many times..
I NEVER got a good answer!~
That was my question as well, but according to Ed (hate to keep bringing them into it, but) right tilt saws outsell left tilt by 8 to 1. Go figure. Guess the word of the day is, don't jam up the work!
right tilt saws outsell left tilt by 8 to 1. Geee I have used both and I never saw any difference cept fer what way to turn the crank
!
Hey, I've always used lefties myself, so I'm curious. All I know is what Woodworker's Supply tells me. ONe of the guys mentioned using some sort of spacer or template that you remove if the work gets stuck. Would like to learn more about that.
Erik,
I move my fence to the right side of the blade whenever I tilt mine.. I'm right eye dominant and a left tilt blade puts me at a disadvantage..
Capn -I bought my Unisaw a few years ago and was initially dissapointed to find the table slightly warped. Slightly as in something you'd have a ligitmate bitch about if it were a high tolerance machine tool in a metalworking machine shop. After having used it for the past few years I've come to realize that's asking far more from a piece of woodworking equipment than one should expect. I think you'll get a lot of good use and enjoyment out of your saw, or any saw you may have chosen. Remember, it's not the tool that makes the craftsman a craftsman. ...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Roger that, Dennis. Appreciate the input
capn john,
What I don't quite understand and have never seen addressed is the re-sale value and, maybe, it's all really relative. The Uni, Powermatic, General are terriffic saws with a fairly stiff price, the Grizzly is maybe 30-40% less expensive and also very good. On resale after 10 years how do the prices compare? Does using a Uni mean it cost you $10,$25, $35 more per year than a griz?....or maybe much less.
BG,
The reason you've never seen it is such a listing or "bluebook" price doesn't exist. Used equipment is worth what somebody is willing to pay and no more.. I've seen great stuff listed for week after week and never get a nibble. (example trying to sell that P.O.S Delta) I tried to get 50% of new cost for a saw that was only a year old.. In the end I had one looker stop by I explained honestly the condition of the saw and let him attempt to try to cut a piece of maple with it and he left with out making any offer..
I find it interesting that so many of you are in love with Grizzly. I bought a belt/disk sander from them and right out of the box it was a P.O.S. Besides cheaply built and never holding settings, it frequently blows the GFCI breaker. Bought a battery operated circular saw, P.O.S. Swore I would never buy from them again.
My friend who makes furniture has a collection of tools, edge sanders, shapers, huge table saw, every thing a major shop would need, from various manufacturers. Only piece he truly hates is the Griz. He's been working in production furniture shops for years. When I asked for his opinion, it was Powermatic first, Delta second, and "Stay away from Grizzly!"
It's all made overseas today, the only question is quality. My Delta drill press has only one flaw, difficult to tilt the table. Other than that, as good as or better than any I've ever worked on, USA or otherwise.
Yes, everyone is out to sell you something, but there are people who do it with additional values besides greed. I have found Woodworker's Supply to be an outfit with values. Their table saw specialist, Ed, knows all the equipment and can point out the good and the bad in all. Besides, I was ready to buy a Powermatic, and his advise, as well as others, let me to the Delta. Now if it was purely greed, they would have sold me the Powermatic.
So what it comes down to is that opinions are like butts, everybody has one.
God love you guys for doing great work on Craftsman (Ryobi), Ridgid, Dewalt, and who knows what. After I have had a chance to work with the saw a little, I will add my findings to list.
Edited 5/13/2005 8:04 am ET by capn john
I don't think you'll be disappointed. I've used Uni's and 66's at shops I've worked at- both are excellent imho. The latest X5 Unisaws I've seen had nice fit and finish- good paint and the cast iron table extentions matched up nicely. Still assembled in the US (Jackson, TN). The Marathon motor has been replaced with a Brazilian made WEG on the lastest X5's- I've heard nothing bad about this motor and I understand the table castings are imported now. Not sure if this applies to Woodworker's Supply Limited Edition Unisaw. It's a great deal w/ the included mobile base for $1499. Grizzly used to have a significant price advantage but that is no longer true.
Grizzly quality varies depending on machine and when in their history it was made. I would not buy any of their small tools unless I knew someone who had that specific model and could report positively on it. Your experience with a cordless saw and a belt/disc sander (size unspecified) isn't relevant to things like cabinet saws, jointers and bandsaws, which is where they really shine. Also, the quality of these larger machines is much better today than it was 20 years ago, but that's true of most tools made in Asia by name companies.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/13/2005 11:06 am ET by forestgirl
made in Asia ..
Forest.. I have two sort of new grandaughter.. made in Asia ..
THEY ARE THE BEST! My sweethearts!
See, learn something everyday. The sander is the 6x48 belt/9" disc for $295.00. Wood magazines editor's choice for best value. Guess I got the lemon. At the time I thought it was significant money. First time I ran it, parts fell off. Loctite stopped that action.So who would buy a Grizzly heavy-duty lathe model 1495?
"Wood magazines editor's choice for best value." Ahh, there's another thing I look at with skepticism. So often, "best value" translates to "cheapest price." Sometimes it's a value, sometimes it's just cheap.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
capn john,
I'm shocked that I like Grizzly.. frankly it doesn't fit my profile.. I own tens of thousands of dollars worth of Snap-On tools and had a whole bunch of Milwaukee tools etc.. I normally buy the most expensive, premium cost item, simply because I'm sorta a tool snob.. To me a tool not only has to work well, it should improve my image. (actually my image is so lousy that a rusty wrench is an improvement but I digress ;-) )
I bought the Grizzly G5959 because I have a lot of 4 inch thick walnut to make into stuff. With it's 12 inch blade I can single pass a 4x4 (actual) The Grizzly has enough grunt to do it and I don't need to be extremely carefull in feeding it..
I do take just a hair more time feeding white oak and maple that is 4 inches thick but not to the point where I'm afraid of stalling it..
I was convinced when I bought a 8 inch x 65 inch jointer. (G1018) I'm embaressed to admit how many big heavy timbers that I feed over that thing.. I suppose at least 500 maybe more.. other than an occasional blade sharpening and one V-Belt {it has three} (cost about $5.00 and stocked by the local auto parts store) I've used it as it came out of the busted crate..
Plus tens of thousands of board feet of wood that has gone into the house so far has had it's edges straightened out with that jointer..
I'll bet at least 30,000 bd.ft. of hardwood has gone thru the planer (G1033) usually both sides. Other than sharpening blades occasionally I have yet to make any adjustments other than the depth of the cut.. It seems to be able to handle a 24 foot long 6"x12" white oak timber as well as the wafer thin pieces that I get from my local sawmill. (some less than an 1/4 inch thick)
I really wish that I could post picture of the raised panel fiddleback maple bathroom I created with my shaper (G1026).. Swinging a giant cutter (C 2068) to make those raised panels with their little bead detail and massive stock removal in one pass impressed me tremendously.. The panel needed no real sanding because it was virtually perfect after a single pass. I think I probably spent three minutes per panel..
I do know that I filled up one of those 35 gallon carbage cans a night with all the stock I removed from panels/ rails /and styles. Yet everything fit together like it was machined to,, Luckily I had just bought one of their two HP dust collectors (G9975).. Overhead I have their G5955 aircleaner and I can get a lot of dust flying when I'm working but the air seems so clean using the cleaner that I stopped using a dust mask..
Is everything perfect?
Lord NO!!!!!!
I wish I'd bought a bigger jointer say one of those 16 inch jobs with the spiral cutter head, and it'd be sure nice to own the 24 inch spiral cutterhead planers as well..
I did get one of their little 90degree air powered drill and well it's just OK not great but not bad either.. My band saw in a 14 inch Jet with a riser and frankly I'm overworking it cutting those big timbers. I've burned out the starting capacitor so now I open the cover to get the blade moving and then hit the start switch,,Sorta like starting a model A Ford.
(Shudder right now )
John,
I don't buy by label, so whether it's Delta, Grizzly, or Powermatic means nothing to me.
I look at what I buy, in construction, design, price, quality of manufacture and service.
A table saw and most woodworking machinery, is about as simple as it gets in equipment design and manufacture. Were it not for the table saw trunion, which is cast and line bored, I could probably slap one together in the back yard, in a couple of week ends. I could probably end up with a better table as well, will just need someone with a nice big stress relieving oven and a surface grinder. So, to make a long story short, it is hard for me to understand your argument, as a quick examination of these products will reveal that the critical components all come from the same place. I have quite a bit of Grizzly, with the first being purchased in 2003, but I look what I buy, before I push the button.
As far as your Delta fancy is concerned, they better wake up, or look at different markets and sales strategies, otherwise their lower end woodworker business will disappear. The stuff they display in Home Depot and elsewhere leaves much to be desired. The last few posts I have picked up, about new Unisaws, were also not too encouraging, its all about people and how well they manage their business. I hate to tell you this, but for the lower and medium end market mostly discussed here, Grizzly is a long shot ahead of the pack.
My Grizzly drill press has no trouble tilting the table and I'm still trying to figure out how they manage to sell it at such a low price.
Possibly the lower labor costs....... ~Z~.........only an assumption, I'm gonna get in trouble here......I JUST KNOW IT!
I suspect labor costs are about the same for most manufacturers of anything made in Taiwan. Grizzly's direct (catalog) sales approach saves them a huge amount of money. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks, ForsestGirl, for the input and, probably, more correct insights. ~Z~
> My Grizzly drill press has no trouble tilting the table and I'm still trying to figure out how they manage to sell it at such a low priceJR -I can tell you that Grizz sells their drill presses at such an attractive low price because compared to older Craftsman DP's there's no comparison. I recently bought a Grizz bench mount drill press to use for woodworking reserving my 20+ year old floor model Craftsman for metal working. On the Grizz, the quill stop stop is a joke, the quill lock is absurd and the two belt spindle speed adjustment is cumbersome at best to adjust. Everything about the Craftsman is head and shoulders above the Grizzly. But .... as I note ... this is what might now be considered vintage Craftsman. I doubt that anything currently sold by any major mfr is of the same quality as what they may have sold 25 or 30 years ago.But, as with table saws as I mentioned in the first place in reply to the original post, the accuracy required in woodworking machinery is far less stringent than it is with metal working. I wouldn't dream let alone attempt to do any metal work on this Grizzly drill press. But for woodworking it more than fullfills its expectations............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
My drill press is an old harbor frieght special.It's now well over 25 years old and has been used for some extremely precise work on my race cars as well as mundain work on whatever.. Sure the handles were flimsy and the stop is a joke.. But it can be made deadnuts accurite if I take the time to pull the quill and reset it with a dial indicator. Fiddly work to be sure but once it's properly set the dial indicator barely wiggles. It stays in place untill I make a mistake and over load the press trying to force a dull bit to work rather than take the moment to resharpen it..
For the $89.00 bucks it cost me back then I'm happy as a clam... sure the bearings are starting to get noisy and I may need to replace them in the furture if I ever need to do that accurite of work again but that's not a tough job. In the meantime I can put a forstner bit on it and you'd swear that the resulting hole was cut by a lazer and polished..
My point is that sometimes we don't really need to spend high dollars for our tools, we just want to!
Confession time,... I own a half dozen Lie Nelson hand planes just 'cause I like the look and feel of them.. Most of my hand plane work is still done with cheap Stanleys
Hi Dennis. Still having problems with that DP, eh? Wish I'd taken a look at the little beastie when I was there.
I'd think a current benchtop model would fall far short of a floor model, especially one as "vintage" as your Craftsman. But I've been quite happy with my little Delta 12" model, seen here:http://deltawoodworking.com/index.asp?e=136&p=1153forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Greets, Jamie -Trouble with the Grizz drill press? No, not really. It does what I need and want it to do. I just point out the weak points to illustrate the well known fact - you get what you pay for. But, having said that, I haven't really looked at any other drill presses in that or any other price range since I bought the ole floor model Craftsman 30 years ago. Maybe they're all as weak as this Grizz. I say weak in that the quill stop, quill clamp, morse taper fit, the finer points of a drill press just aren't up to the robust nature of the old Craftsman.And while the three pulley setup offers a lot more speed options than the two on the Craftsman, it's a lot harder to change the belt positions on the Grizz. But I'm not complaining in the least about its usefulness in my shop. I use it strictly for wood boring and drilling. I chuck a 3" forestner bit in the thing and drill a recess for my lathe chuck. The only weakness is the slippage in the chuck taper in the quill. Which I can fix with a little talc if and when I remember to do so! (haha)...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
Thanks for your post. just curious, which model bench top drill press are you referring to?
I have the G7944 12 speed floor press and really can't complain. I compared it to a Jet at work and looks pretty much the same. I did modify the quill stop, which was quick and easy, but as far as runout and all the other major critical items, it's OK.
What makes a speed change on your Craftsman easier, than loosening two knobs, flipping a handle and changing the belts up or down?
JR-> which model bench top drill press are you referring to?I'll have to check tomorrow. It's the one with the 5/8" chuck. One of, perhaps the main reason I bought it. The chuck has a morse 2 taper which fits in my lathe tail stock. Yes, I know, I could have bought a 5/8" chuck cheaper than a drill press (grin) but I needed a separate drill for woodworking since metal working ends up getting the table pretty grimey.I'd be interested in seeing a photo of your quill stop mod if you don't mind. I find that if I'm not careful after having set the stop at something rather shallow, if I'm drilling a large diameter hole in really dense wood that takes a lot of force on the drill handle I can hit the stop and bend it pretty easily. Is it just a matter of replacing the whimpy light ga metal angle they used for the stop?The other thing I'm not thrilled with is the quill lock. Or quill depth lock. Not sure what it's real name is but it's the clamp or lock that locks the quill in position vertically. On my old craftsman it's a simple little handle that's turned to lock the quill in position. On the Grizz there's a collar of sorts that you have to spin around and lock against the handle to hole the quill down. I always seem to spin it the wrong way the first time! (grin). Plus there's ever so much backlash in that mechanism such that I can't maintain pressure on the workpiece. When I lock the quill at depth, then release the handle it wants to relieve some of the pressure I've applied. This isn't so much an issue with woodworking but I use this approach when positioning a piece of steel or iron by 'setting' the drill bit in the centerpunched hole location, clamping it down with the quill and drill bit then positioning my clamps to hold the work piece while it's being held by the quill and drill in exact position. As for changing the belts/speeds, there doesn't seem to be much throw to the motor release meaning it takes quite a bit of effort to get the belts moved from one pulley to the other. I generally don't change speeds that often so haven't looked - perhaps there's an adjustment that would provide more slack. And .... the motor locking cam lever to retention the belt train could be longer to provide a bit more leverage. The belts are indeed quite a bit more robust than the thin spindly thing on the Craftsman, though. But releasing the motor on the crafstman DP allows much easier belt changes. There must be close to 2" of travel in the motor swing once it's released.I've never measured the runout on the Grizz DP. In fact, just visually judging between the two, the Grizz seems to turn truer. I have to confess, however, that I've never cleaned the chuck on the ol' Crafstman since I bought it............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
Seems as if you are referring to the G7943 12 speed model?
I realize that we use our presses differently, what you refer to as the quill stop, left hand side, with the graduated tape, I have never used as a depth stop. I can imagine that the construction here is a bit light, if used for that puprpose. Mine is purely for decoration and it looks as if Grizzly removed this on their newer machines and put a scale on the "depth lock".
What you refer to as the "quill depth lock", I use as a quill stop, anti clock wise and a depth lock clockwise. The first time I did some heavy work, using this as a stop, the spring pin which stops against a recess inside the collar broke. I removed the pin, drilled the hole square to the face, tapped a thread and screwed in a hardened steel stud. I agree with you, the Engineering design here, is not the best, but it's an easy fix.
BG, don't know about the resale market either, but looking at the numbers for new saws puts everything under Powermatic in the same barrel.
Powermatic 50", 3 HP with Accu-fence (Beisemeyer) $2099.00. Mobile base extra.
Unisaw 50", 3 HP w/Besiemeyer fence & mobil base $1499.00. Free shipping. $600 difference.
Grizzly 1023SLX, 54" 3 HP w/shop fox (Beisemeyer look-a-like) fence $1295.00. Mobile base $69.95 + base extension (which does not look very stable) $69.95. Shipping $78.00. All that comes to $1512.90.
Cutting a straight line, priceless.Edited 5/13/2005 3:37 pm ET by capn john
Edited 5/13/2005 3:37 pm ET by capn john
There's nothing wrong with the Shop Fox mobile base and extension. My equipment is in my garage and if I want to use the saw, I need to roll it out every time. I haven't touched the base since I assembled it two winters ago. The HTC can't be set up the same way(length of saw is along garage wall) since the wheels are on the front and back. There is another type that is basically stamped steel with holes in it. That one looks pretty weak.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hey Capn, If you haven't bought yet, I think I saw a good listing in your area over in woodweb today that you chould check out here is a link.http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/402294.htmlI hope I am not too late. this sounds like a good saw with a bout $1000 savings. Good luck, Keith
What you need is an altendorf f45 sliding table saw. A bit pricy ($40,000 used) but man, it is a nice machine. I started an apprenticeship at a cabinet saw and that is their saw. Makes my Unisaw seem like a toy.
After I win Mega Millions.
I have a P66 now, but had a Unisaw before that. I honestly can't see any difference between the two as far as cut quality is concerned. I think you will be pleased with the Delta."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
capn john,
Buy whatever trips your trigger.. Just don't buy it because of it's past reputation.. most companies have long since stopped making much here and either have the whole thing built in China or buy all the stuff in China and assemble it here so they can stamp made in America..
Quailty varies but don't expect a lot of help from a dealer. While they aren't in the business just to make friends some might consider some help,,... if it doesn't cost them anything. (profit margins are squeezed tight with all the internet and discount buying).
In the end the Delta was so much trash and the much much cheaper Grizzly has been flawless since I hooked it up..
A friend of mine asked me about what saw to buy and he didn't want to spend more than $1000. He was considering the Jet contractors saw and I told him that most of you folks spoke highly of the Grizzly 1023. After a couplr of days he came back and told me he had ordered it. I went to his house last week to look at it and I gotta tell you, it's a really great saw. I don't know how the reliability is but the fit and finish are perfect, the fence is great(shopfox classic), and the controls are really smooth. I am really impressed and would recommend this saw to anyone.
TDF
I feel the same way. My 1023 was my second grizzly tool. I was so impressed with the 17" BS that I got the 1023. I got mine last year prior to the prices going up due to the high cost of steel.
Frenchy, how about some specifics? What model Delta and what kind of problems?
jc,
I've posted so many times about the problems here that it's probably easier for you to check the archieves..
Main issues where the blade alignment would drift all over the place in spite of several attempts to correct the problem, the motor didn't have enough grunt to make a sick whore fall off the toilet, the planer came without handles and it took nearly two months and threat to contact Home Depot to correct that and I had to listen to customer service give me a lecture on religion...
Check back in the archieves for details...
I will say that the Grizzly stuff I've ordered has worked right out of the box perfectly without adjustment (except for the 8" jointer that was damaged in shipping but a phone call netted me replacement parts overnight)
jc
Good initials, they're mine too. I'll jump in here, because I experienced several problems with my unisaw.
First of all, the cast iron top wasn't square to the blade. If it was the only problem, no big deal. But, it was on a list of many. The arbor crank AND the blade tilt crank were about as smooth as a 1000 pound rock dragged across 30 grit sand paper. I got a workout every time I used them. I took them apart, recleaned and greased everything, but to no avail. I'm not an expert machinist, but the trunnion teeth didn't seem to mesh properly with the receiving end. I had to hand file it to get it to ride better.
Even with dust collection, the motor frequently fouled to the point where I had to take it apart and blow it out. The contacts would get fouled with dust, and the saw would only humm, not run. 3 TIMES in a year! TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) my a$$!
Finally, the starter solenoid blew after only 1 1/2 years. I bought a new one from grainger, put it in, soldered the wires, and sold the piece of chit!
I got the 66, the only hitch being the work I had to do to get the wings dead flat. I don't like shims, so I filed the wings by hand with a mill file. It took my until 3:00 in the morning, but I was into it, and I knew that once it was right, I didn't have to worry about shims shifting on me.
To me, a flat top is critical if you use the saw for joinery, which I do.
By the way, Delta customer service (hah) was about as helpful as a rash on your a$$!
I will never own a Delta anything again!
Jeff
Gotta be "tool karma" or luck of the draw. I've had good luck with Delta over the years. Sold my contractor's saw nineteen years ago to a contractor friend I was working for- it's still running strong. My current Delta stuff, drill press, mortiser, and dust collector have been fine. On the other hand my brother has had a couple of bad pieces. A miter saw that wouldn't square up (the slot in the casting was 1/2" off) and a Far East copy of the nice old Invicta 13" planer that won't stay in adjustment. A couple of years ago I worked in a production cabinet factory. The special order deparment had a PM66. I asked the two guys how they liked it; they didn't and wished for a Unisaw- go figure. Bosch is well regarded by most but the Bosch jig saw I had was a disappointment, it didn't work as well as the PC it replaced and nowhere near as well as the Milwaukee that replaced the Bosch. I think quality in general has slipped, not surprising when despite inflation, tools cost no more, and in many cases less than they did twenty years ago.
Like you, JC, I've had good luck with Delta. I've got an old Rockwell 10" contractor's saw with the old-fashioned Jet rip guide that works pretty well, albeit that I set it with a rule instead of the markings.The six-inch jointer that came out of the N&W shops which I rehabbed works well.The only bitch I've got with the 24" scroll saw is that some idiot replaced the motor with the wrong one and I've got to either replace it with a proper one or re-locate the capacitor start to get it below table level. Err. Hmm. Well, there's the delicate seating I did for a while when I bought parts from Delta. I really like being kissed first and prefer ladies.Drill press is a Heinz -- Boice-Crane 15" head mounted on an old Craftsman floor stand.Looking back at this, I just realized I've no idea whether anything that's been made in the past 30 years works well or not.Well, the old stuff works well. Most of it's in better shape than the old fart writing this.Leon Jester
Leon Jester,
Your old Delta ain't like the new Delta and that's exactly the mistake I made..
Now Delta is a poorly and cheaply made piece without the quality control and precision that Delta once had..
Good point, Frenchy.I'd forgotten that all of it has a Rockwell label. So far I've never had a problem (now I've got to find a solid piece of wood to knock on) with Rockwell equipment, other than the +20-year old power cord that had the audacity do crap out on my 3/8 drill. Expensive as hell, too, cost me all of $10 to have it replaced.Regards,Leon Jester
Capn
I got rid of my rotten unisaw 3 years ago for the 66, and am very pleased. Night and day. I had to mess with the wings a little to get the table top flat (I'm anal), but it's dead nuts on, and so is the fence. I use it almost every day, and I rip 8/4, 10/4, and 12/4 all the time (I build alot of tables and chairs), and the 3hp is all you need. I've never had an instance, including the hard maple I'm using now, where I've needed more power.
A friend of mine has the General, and he'll brag about it just as well. I've seen and used his once, and I'd say it's comparable. All the rest out there, you'll just be compromising.
Just my .02.
Jeff
I did the same thing. Only my experience was just the reverse. Had a perfectly serviceable Unisaw for 25 years, dumped it for a P 66 -- thinking I was upgrading for my old age. New P66 arrives, all kind of fit and finish problems, which took hours to fix. Motor died just after the warranty ran out. Powermatic said they would be pleased to send me a new one -- for $440. Jumped up and down, couple of managers up the line, the price came down to $200, and I took it, but only because I was in a desperate hurry to get it operating again. I still think I could have got a free motor if I had gone further up the chain of command -- but I just didn't have the time. The moral of the story -- not so much for you, as for other readers in this thread -- is that brands just aren't what they used to be. With all the old line standard machines in the wwing field, quality control seems to be slipping. Your Powermatic was fine, mine wasn't -- so it is difficult to draw any conclusions about brand reliability. I sense that the European manufacturers have figured this out, and are starting to achieve some real inroads by making high-end, reliable machines -- backed by superb customer service. I'm thinking of outfits such as Festool, Hilti, Metabo, Minimax et al.********************************************************
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
nikkiwood
I think I agree with you totally. My favorite tools in the shop are my old industrial american tools. My Oliver 270 is still my favorite saw, and I've got a Northfield HD jointer, and a few others.
They don't build em like they used to.
That being said, I think the 66 has a heavier duty trunnion, and better working components than the new unisaw, even if both are perfect, which is rare.
Jeff
Festool plunge cut saws, vacs and guiderails....
At least take a look at their stuff.
For some folks, it's a viable alternative to a stationary cabinet saw or even a contractor's saw, especially for working with ply goods and final dimensioned boards.
(I have nothing to gain from this suggestion.)
I agree that is some circumstances the Festool system is a very viable alternative to a table saw. Especially, if you need portability -- or don't have the space to permanently set up a TS. Another similar, but less expensive system comes from Eurekazone:http://www.eurekazone.com/products/ezsmartguide.htmlEither system is especially useful for breaking down full sheets of plywood, but can also be used when you need maximum portability -- say on a job site, where you want high- precision, accurate cuts -- but can't schlepp around a table saw.********************************************************
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Thank for looking out for me, Keith. I contacted the seller this morning by e-mail. Will let you know how things go. My interest has swung a bit toward General based on recent information.
It's interesting. It takes me less time to buy a car or house than it's taking to buy a table saw. Part of the that may be that we don't have resources in this part of Maryland where I can go put my hands on the stuff. There's Home Depot and Lowe's, but, well you know.
Thanx again.
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