Replies

1. 
   Glaucon | Aug 29, 2006 04:25pm | #1

   This is a subject that comes up fairly often- try a serach for past threads, you will turn up many posts.

   I have used both western and Japanese dovetail saws, I have come to favor the western. The problem is if the saw is not properly cut, set and sharpened, it can be very difficult to get consistent (enjoyable) results. A Japanese rip cut dozuki will work right out of the box, and can be had for ~$50-70. I use the Lie-Nielsen (western)dovetail saw, that I like a lot, it works out of the box as well and is ~$125. There are other manufacturers who are also well thought of and post here as well. All dovetail saws western or Japanese, should be rip saws- you are largely cutting with the grain and I think the rip saw follows the line better than a crosscut.

   You can also buy an old Disston backsaw (~#4) and have it professionally sharpened and set. The saw will cost ~$25, sharpening $15-20, and you will get good results. The handle will not be at quite the right angle, but I think that this is minor (others will think differently).

   What I would NOT advise is buying a new, cheap western saw. They are inferior in composition (steel) and quality and it is not worth the frustration.

   If you are starting out, a Jaopanese rip dozuki is probably the easiest way to start out.

   Good luck,

   Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   flipstuff | Aug 29, 2006 04:45pm | #2

   hi --
   i am in the same boat, and found the recent FWW mag review (march/april 2006 issue) of western-style dovetail saws to be very helpful. it did not review japanese style saws however. (i will probably end up getting both styles anyway!)

   a great source of collected knowledge is a site called "how-to guides: hand tools" -- on this page you'll find several articles on hand-cutting dovetails, including saws, etc.

   http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm

3. 
   Buster2000 | Aug 29, 2006 09:38pm | #3

   I too have used both the Japanese and the Western Style saw.  I prefer to use the Western Style saws.  This is a preference.  I grew up using western style saws, so the use is more natural to me.  The long handles on the Japanese saws just didn't feel right to me.  As well only use western 'local' (western) hardwoods, it's open to debate if it matters.

   There is also a matter of economics.  I use a LN carcass saw (rip) to do my dovetailing, it cost approx $150 Cdn (locally).  It works directly out of the box, sharpening is cheap.  My Japanese saw was about $50, again it worked directly out of the box but will have to be replaced when it gets dull.

   In the end I'd try both.

   Make sure you get a good quality saw, Glaucon has made some good suggestions.  I would get a pistol grip saw, rather than a gents style saw.  The pistol grip helps register that the blade is square. 

1. 
   Glaucon | Aug 29, 2006 10:49pm | #4

   I'd agree- I favor the open pistol grip- it helps if it is mounted at about 30 degrees to the handle.

    

    Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   rfd | Aug 30, 2006 12:44am | #5

   Thank you Glaucon, flipstuff, and Buster2000 for quick, helpful responses. Your advise and suggestions narrowed my wish list to a choice of 2 saws: the Adria and the Lie-Nelson. Now the hard part......deciding. I will order one tonight!

1. 
   pzgren | Aug 30, 2006 12:59am | #6

     No experience with the Adria; Have been using the LN DT saw instead of a Dozuki for the past couple of months. Very, very nice, and almost impossible NOT to saw to a line.... What a saw should be!

     You won't go wrong with the LN, and based on comments that I've read about the Adria, with that one either.

     Hope this is of some use to you.Tschüß!

   Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!

   James

2. 
   EdHarrison | Aug 30, 2006 01:10am | #7

   Got 'em both.  In the verbiage of stock car racing, you could "throw a blanket over  both of of them - that's how close they are."  The Adria is a little harder to start with a steeper rake, as delivered, but the Adria has a slightly nicer handle, IMO.  You can't go wrong with either.  Good luck, Ed

    

    

    

3. 
   tomr2 | Aug 30, 2006 01:41am | #9

   RFD,

   Whatever you do, dont overlook Mike Wenzloff. You can find him here:

   http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html

   Beautiful saws. Great guy. Customized however you want it and Mike will help you do that. For all practical purposes same price as LN and Adria.

    

   Tom

    

4. 
   Buster2000 | Aug 30, 2006 01:42am | #10

   I have heard great things about both saws, my LN is a joy to pick up and use.  It's one of those tools that just feels right.  That said, I'm sure I'd would enjoy the Adria just as much.

   One note that I forgot.  It takes a soft touch to get these saws started.  I was at a wood show last year watching a guy trying to start the LN saw at the Rob Cosman demo...  The cut it great once you get going.

4. 
   Kaleo | Aug 30, 2006 01:14am | #8

   I've used both the LN saw and the Adria. Personally I thought that they were a lot alike. They both work right out of the box well. They both have the pistol grip which I prefer, only because it guarantees that the saw is in your hand perfectly straight every time. But the only difference between the 2 saws is that the LN's blade is 9 inchs long while the Adria is 8 inchs

   Kaleo Kala

5. 
   9619 | Aug 30, 2006 02:23am | #11

   RFD,

   Dovetail saws are much like religions. Lotsa discussion. Lotsa beliefs. Impossible to read all about it and know "the answer". You got some answers from some VERY good woodworkers. Here is some different advice.

   In my humble opinion, you can cut dovetails with almost any saw. If you don't believe that, look at the pictures of Tage Frid cutting them with a big old Bow saw. Then again, he was Tage Frid. He could probably cut dovetails with a dull pair of pinking shears.

   I used a Sears dovetail jig for years and was a bit intimidated by the thought of cutting dovetails by hand. The more I read, the more scared I got. Everybody does it differently and using different types of saws.

   I finally said, ENUF! I went down to the local Woodcraft and bought the only Japanese dovetail saw they had hanging on the wall. When I did, three people walked up to me to give me advice. One told me never to buy a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw because his doesnt work well. Another said that he uses a old Gents Saw and it works fine, and doesn't cost much. Another told me to go to Lee Valley and buy one of the best of the Japanese saws.

   I took the saw home from Woodcraft and got some scrap pine from the woodpile. Everyone says NOT to use pine for dovetails, so I figured it was worth trying. Then I proceeded to cut three dovetailed drawers over the space of a few nights. ALL OF THEM WORKED!!!!

   Are they perfect? NO. But I used all of the tricks for fixing dovetails. I used a ball peen hammer. I inserted some shims. etc. They look pretty good.

   So what about the use of pine? It worked just fine. Since then, I have talked to a number of people who have handcut dovetails in pine. You'll find out that hardwoods are nicer to use.

   Given all of that. My advice is to pick any saw and try cutting some dovetails. The Japanese saws and the English saws and the bow saws and the gents saws all work. If you concentrate on achieving SKILL rather than looking for a MAGIC SAW, you'll be better off.

   Now you have a conumdrum. You have gotten different advice from excellent, recognized woodworkers, and then you have mine. Is it better to listen to the experts or to me, a weekend warrior? Best of luck. Whatever you do, HAVE FUN!!!! Let us know what you come up with and how it works out.

   Why not take on a goal? The goal would be to make five handcut dovetail drawers by the end of this year, using five different saws, and then publishing the results on Knots?

   By the way, in the future I am going to start a thread on the topic of "how to use the conflicting advice that one gets on Knots". As of now, I dont know how. I try not to use Knots to ask questions about which tool to buy. I think Knots is a much better place for getting answers on how to develop and enhance skills than which tool to buy.

   Enjoy,
   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   rfd | Aug 30, 2006 02:54am | #12

   I don't want to spend days and days researching such a simple tool. I'r rather use the tool! I've taken all the advise, looked al the web sites and FWW reference, and decided on (and ordered) the Lie-Nielson for the following reasons:

   1. I like the pistol grip handle

   2. it has a 9" blade

   3. it's made in Maine (I'm from MA)

   4. Many WW'er use and praise it

   5. I can return it to LN for sharpening for $15

   I view it as a long term investment. Again, thank you all for your help making my decision. btw, Mel, great idea to cut 4 -5 and post on Knots. I'l try with different saws and see how they turn out.

   Dick 

1. 
   derekcohen | Aug 30, 2006 04:19am | #13

   Just to add my 2c worth...

   1.  Most vintage dovetail saws will work as well as one could ever wish - it just depends on how well they have been sharpened.

   2.  The LN and Adria are superb dovetail saws. I have the LN and have used the Adria. On looks and comfort I prefer the Adria, but this statement must not detract from the excellence of the LN. Neither are as good, however, as the saws of Mike Wenzloff.

   3.  The LN can be (mine is) difficult to start but otherwise a joy to use. I had a saw (Independence Tools - fore runner of the LN) sharpened by Mike Wenzloff (do a search here for my article, "Father and Son") and this raised the bar a few notches.

   4.  Japanese saws are extremely easy to use and will cut as straight as a die BUT most are better suited to soft wood. The teeth are fragile and I will not use them in hard wood.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

6. 
   lynford | Aug 30, 2006 06:25am | #14

   You can make dovetails with a Zona hobby saw (the blade is paper thin).  That's what they use a College of the Redwoods in a short course.  The important thing is to get out into the shop and make some and quit worrying about it.  Get a couple boards and have at it.  Cut off the DTs and do it again.  It is handskill that makes the difference and you don't get that from any saw without using it a lot.  After a couple dozen sets in different woods, you won't even think about it again ... now half blinds needs a little additional chisel work.  Speaking of chisels, they take a little practice too and have to be sharp to pare cross grain well.   

   Cheers      Lynford

    

1. 
   joinerswork | Aug 30, 2006 05:41pm | #15

   lyn, and mel,

   Amen to both of you.  Just had this same conversation with a tool collector friend the other night.  I used a cheap Stanley "gents" dovetail saw for years, that's what I learned to dovetail with.  When it got too dull to cut, rather than learn to sharpen (I was intimidated by all the old-timer's tales) I bought another cheapy at the hardware store.  If it had a name, it was on the blister pack.  I have since learned to file a saw (it really isn't a black art) and have used it for, oh, about 20 yrs now.

   That's not to take away from any of the saws that have been recommended.  I'm sure they are fine tools.  Just that I've never been one for brand loyalty.  It is interesting that vintage handsaws just don't have the respect, by and large, that other vintage tools have.  My buddy regularly buys nice old Disston, Adkins, Simmons, Spear and Jackson, etc, handsaws for under $5  Other than the panther headed oddities, collectors aren't much interested in 'em.  Even Liberty Bell Disstons go cheap at auction.  I have two, and the expensive one (with the rosewood handle) cost me all of $15

   The upshot to all this, is when it comes to cutting dovetails, or sawing to a line in general, practice is the key to learning this, or any, skill.  While a pistol grip handle shape may be more comfortable to some, I don't see how it makes a saw easier or more difficult, to cut to a line.  You still have to hold your hand at the right angle.  Me, I look at the blade, not at the back of the handle.  I don't even think about how to hold the saw, just pick it up and start cutting.  Who says that the stock you are sawing, or the line you are cutting to, is vertical to begin with? 

   Regards,

   Ray 

1. 
   Buster2000 | Aug 30, 2006 07:44pm | #16

   Since the OP has decided, we can take this thread as far off topic as we want.

   I can not dispute what you have said.  It's not the name on the saw that makes a good dovetail, it's the skill with which the saw is used.  As pointedThe important things for dovetails saws are: 1) The it's sharp. 2) That it has the proper set.

   As a relative junior compared to your 20 years I can still remember the frustration of getting poor quality saws to cut properly.  Having a sharp saw, well set saw made a huge difference.  The reason I recomended the LN saw is that they come sharp and set properly (as does Adria).  The saw is ready to use out of th box and gets the user to their goal that much quicker.

   While a pistol grip handle shape may be more comfortable to some, I don't see how it makes a saw easier or more difficult, to cut to a line.  You still have to hold your hand at the right angle.  Me, I look at the blade, not at the back of the handle.  I don't even think about how to hold the saw, just pick it up and start cutting.  Who says that the stock you are sawing, or the line you are cutting to, is vertical to begin with?

   The idea of the pistol grip was initially shown to me by Rob Cosman.  The idea, or at least my understanding, is ergonomics.  We naturally hold our hands a certain way, think shaking someones had.  It's very natural.  He demos it by getting a beginner to cut a vertical line in a board the drawing in the line after to see how vertical they were.  Usually they're spot on.  Part of his set up is to ensure that the boards are vertical when you start cutting (why introduce another layer of complexity?).  Anyway by cutting the tails first (which are not vertical) then pins the only cuts that really matter are the vertical cuts on the pins (since you can copy the tails to the pins).

1. 
   rfd | Aug 30, 2006 10:11pm | #17

   I agree with you 100%. My goal is to become proficient at hand cutting quality dovetails. I also agree that almost any hand saw will cut dovetails. I've been using a flush cut-off saw and a backsaw until now with marginal results. Its got to be easier and more fun to practice the proper technique with tool(s) designed for the job.

   More important to me is listening to the folks who have the experience and expertise that I lack, which helped me whittle the list down to Adria and LN.

   Thanks again to all. I'm looking forward to working with my LN dovetail saw as soon as it arrives.