Dear All,
I need to apply a finish to a cherry butcher block bar top. It’s for a pub, and is 20 feet long. Any help is appreciated, I’m not sure the usual varathane is appropriate.
Harv
Dear All,
I need to apply a finish to a cherry butcher block bar top. It’s for a pub, and is 20 feet long. Any help is appreciated, I’m not sure the usual varathane is appropriate.
Harv
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Replies
I might first apply a coat of an oil, Danish or BLO, then apply the varathane or spar finish to make it water resistant.
Thanks Bill,
Varathane doesn't seem to last very long on a kitchen table though. Have you ever used the oil finishes from Lee Valley? (Tried and True Varnish Oil)
Harv
Hi Harv,
There has been a lot of discussion here about the T & T products and their sometimes inability to cure in a resonable amount of time, but I have never had that problem.
I have had success with Watco Danish Oil as an undercoat followed by Minwax Spar Urethane for an area that is near my kitchen sink. So far its lasted 4 yrs and looks as good as new. For a commercial bar application, however, you may need to follow the undercoat with an epoxy based product for durability.
Bill
Harv,
A pour on epoxy finish or a catalyzed finish like conversion varnish will give you good service on a commercial bar top. Anything less durable is not going to last very long.
It may be to your benefit ot have a local shop that uses conversion varnish, catalyzed urethane, or polyester do the finishing.
Paul
Paul,
I've replaced a couple of tops lately that had pour-on epoxy finishes. I can't speak for all pour-on finishes, but these were awful. Scratches, holes, bumps, and adhesion failures. They seemed very soft and scratched easily. One was residential ond the other high taffic commercial.
The other suggestions were great. I've really been impressed by the catalyzed urethane I have been using.
Other choices for a commercial bar would be a traditional bar top varnish, or (shudder) oil based poly varnish. It's ugly but has held up well on a couple of bars I've seen.
"Oil" finishes wouldn't last a month.
Michael R.
Michael,
I can only imagine that the two poor examples you encountered were either incorrectly mixed and/or applied or were an inferior product. Pour-on epoxy finishes are "softer" than catalyzed finishes which makes them more susceptible to scratches but they wear like top quality tire tread. Adhesion absolutely should not be an issue.
For added scratch resistance, epoxy can be topcoated with varnish or urethane (including 2K urethane). For repair work, the top can be sanded back and re-coated.
Because of the health hazards associated with using a catalyzed urethane, I would not recommend it for anyone other than a finisher with a spray booth, fresh air supply system, and a tyvek spray suit. Not only are the fumes very hazardous, but you have to protect your skin from overspray.
Paul
Paul, I did say that I can't speak for all epoxy finishes, but beyond the two I have replaced I have seen a number of restaurant tables, bars, and such finished with this stuff. None of them looked like anything I would want to be associated with. As for repair, the ones I worked on were definitely beyond repair when they were first done, and just got worse from there. I think you know what I mean. Point is, Ii haven't seen a decent looking clear epoxy finish yet. These have all apparently been pour on finishes, not sprayed. Haven't seen any sprayable epoxies on the market.
Any brands that you know of that actally perform well?
As for adhesion, I have seen too many epoxied tops with blisters under the finish, and on the one big project I dismantled, the epoxy just peeled off in sheets. I'm sure surface prep and the stain used are big factors.
I know boatbuilders often finish with epoxy for waterproofing and topcoat with a more durable finish for wear, but would there actually be any advantagfe on a bar top that would be worth the time and expense? I like to keep things simple, and when I have a finish that will do the job by itself, that's what I tend to use.
I was just agreeing with you on cat. urethanes. Certainly catalyzed urethanes should be used with proper precautions, as should almost all finishes, to a greater or lesser degree. I happen to think waterbornes present a particular hazard because so many people seem to think they are "safe", while in fact they are about as toxic as solvent lacquers. Even the epoxy glues I use warn against skin contact and inhaling fumes. An associate here in town died recently from liver cancer attributed to overexposure to solvents. He had massive exposure for years with no protection, but I like my liver and kidneys too much to expose them to very much abuse at all. As for my central nervous system -- well, that may be beyond hope.......
I did mention some viable DIY options, as well, including traditional bar top varnishes, which perform pretty well.
Micahel R.
Woodwiz, Boatbuilders use epoxy under and spar varnish over not because the varnish is a better wear surface. Actually the oppisite, the epoxy degrades when exposed to UV and the varnish is kind of a sacrificial wear layer that contains UV blockers and can be renewed every few years while having the advantage of a durable undercoat of epoxy. It Actually epoxy is the prefered resin for boat building because of its high degree of addhesion to wood. What kind of epoxy did you use? It is somewhat distressing to me that you had a failure. I've used West Systems and System 3 epoxy on seakayaks with no problems at all. I did put them on in several coats as opposed to a pour type layer. The other thing is, epoxies come in different hardnesses for different situations. Some are to remain some what flexible to account for some degree of movement and others are to remain rock hard. Did you use an oil stain that may have played havoc with the addhesion of the epoxy. I know that some woods contain oils that require wiping with acetone to facilitate adhesion.
Brian
Edited 5/1/2004 7:02 am ET by BrianF
Brian, I don't use epoxy finishes; so far I've just had to deal with the aftermath. Hence my somewhat jaundiced view. I supect you're right about oil stains -- the work was pretty certainly done by yobboes. Surface prep didn't look so hot, either. It doesn't help that I don't like the look, but that's just personal taste. I'd certainly consider it on a boat, if I had one.
Paul -- thanks for the input -- I still don't like epoxy finishes, but I'll keep an open mind. I had heard the explanation about UV protection but had forgotten it.
Along with the associate I mentioned, my wife died of a smoking related cancer, so I worry more than most, possibly, about the cumulative results of long term exposure to various known toxins. Everybody seems to know that lacquer and paint solvents are dangerous, but this myth about waterbornes being safe to use without proper ventilation and protection is really persistent, and pernicious.
OT, I read recently that even a single dose of Extasy can cause long term, irreversible brain damage, and that we might be looking at an explosion of brain cancers and such several years down the road. Brain cancer is not a nice way to go. Not so great on the survivors, either.
Michael R.
Hi Michael,
There's a couple restaurants in my area that have the epoxy finish on their tables with some "stuff" imbedded in the finish. I actually like the look myself. One of the restaurants is a Burger King and they've had the tables for at least 10 years that I know of. I don't know what, if any, maintenance or repair they have done to the tables in that time since I don't go there very often. The last time I was there the tables still looked good to me.
Epoxy finishes are strictly pour-on, spread out; no spraying that I know of. The product I'm familiar with is Envirotex (click on the link for application tips).
In the December 2002 issue of "Finishing & Restoration" magazine there's an article on pour-on epoxy finishes. The author used "Glaze Coat" from Eclectic Products (.com). Of course he's a rep for their products so it makes sense he would choose his own brand. The article presents pour-on epoxy finishes as "... ideal for surfaces such as bar tops, restaurant tables, and slabs cut from tree trunks...." and has a troubleshooting guide to avoid the sort of problems you've described.
As far as oil-base varnish goes, it's the most durable finish that can be applied by hand. Polyurethane is the most durable type of varnish (as long as it's a good quality product). Behlen's "RockHard" is a good varnish; it's made with tung oil and phenolic resins. It contains a lower ratio of oil to resins which makes it hard (brittle). I once read somewhere (I think it was an old issue of "Professional Refinishing" magazine) what the thinner for "RockHard" contained but can't remember the specifics; it's a mix of solvents that is "hotter" than mineral spirits alone. The mix of solvents is designed to keep the resins in solution.
Another good varnish is Waterlox Original. It's made with tung oil and phenolic resins also but has a higher ratio of oil to resins so it isn't as hard. It used to be marketed as "Gym Floor" finish but is being marketed as a durable furniture/cabinetry finish these days.
On the subject of the health hazards associated with various finishes, I think it's critical that folks get the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the products they plan to use. As you point out, even waterborne finishes can be quite hazardous depending on the solvents and catalyst used to make them. I always recommend the waterborne finishes from Target Coatings (.com) because they're my favorite. Target has the MSDS for their finishes on their website like a number of other manufacturers. A proper respirator is always required when spraying their finishes but in a space with some ventilation there's no health hazards associated with the "fumes." And there's no fire or explosion risk at all.
Good discussion,Paul
Harv,
(Was it BG?) had it right: bar top varnish is what you want. It's made for (surprise) exactly this purpose. It's extremely hard, and you can rub it out to any degree of gloss you want. Properly applied and rubbed out it is gorgeous and will last until the next ice age.
Stay away from spar varnishes and exterior varnishes. They are made for exterior use (duh) and are made softer than interior, furniture-grade varnish so they won't crack when the wood beneath them expands and contracts. Spar varnish doesn't stand up to abrasion, and even fully cured you can peel it up with your fingernail.
BTW, there have been several discussions on this exact topic. You might want to search the archives under "bar top," "table top" or "bar-top varnish."
Alan
"Women are like elephants to me, I like to look at 'em, but I wouldn't want to own one." WC Fields
Edited 4/22/2004 7:46 pm ET by Alan
Allan,
Are you referring to Behlen's Rockhard Tabletop finish? Can I brush it on? Do they have there own website?
Harv
As woodwiz suggested, catylized urethane is a top rated product for this application.But since you sound intent on a DIY approach, I've only heard real good things about Behlen's "Rock Hard" varnish. Woodcraft probably carries it, and I know Rockler's used to (mail order).
Harv,
I've heard nothing but good things about Behlens bar top varnish, but I have no personal experience with it. I'm a little leery about it only because they recommend you use nothing but their own thinner. This might be just another marketing ploy when any old paint thinner or spirits will do.
There are many other makers of bar top varnish. I've used several different brands and I have no complaints about any of them.
The only caveat is to read the label and do NOT get polyurethane. Many people use poly as their Norm, and swear by it; I've only sworn at it. I'm sure it's been improved since I acquired my distaste for it, but two or three years ago I tried it again (only on scrap) and I still don't like it. In addition to trying it on some wood, I put two or three coats on some white foam-core I had around. To my eyes it still has a greenish cast to it (my poor eyes can still see colors just fine) and it still has that awful plastic look to it. It doesn't rub out well enough for me to get a finish that makes it worthwhile. Poly is just a naturally contrary beast. Ugggh!
Alan
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