Recent adventures in the realm of the hand tool have enthused me about modern planes. I have come to love the Veritas block and chisel planes, recently acquired and now smoothing stuff that I would otherwise have RO sanded.
The Veritas catalogue keeps whispering to me that I really should consider a smoothing or jack plane, despite my having a Pavlovian dislike of planes from a Bad Experience when first learning WW, with Record versions of these tools. (Tennis elbow for 10 months and a pathological disgust at poorly engineered blue things that need fettling every 10 minutes).
It would be a great help if the many experienced plane users out there could advise me whether my cunning plan to acquire a Veritas low angle jack plane, with the two spare blades ground at steeper angles, will in practice provide me with many planes via the purchase of only one (and the spare blades)? Mostly this plane will square and fair edges, take out saw or planer marks, deal with difficult grain and smooth big areas like tabletops.
Otherwise tool lust will take over and I will make the ladywife get a second job to pay for a full collection of Lie Nielsens. His tool-porn catalogue has dozens of the lovely things for sale, although the pages are stuck together with drool now, so I forget what they all are.
Lataxe
Replies
The L-Vs have been well-received. You shouldn't have any problems.
A jack plane is a good 'early' plane to buy. It's one of the Big Four - Scrub, Jack, Jointer, Smoother.
Now, Boss,
If you want to put this mediocrity of a WW on the path to being a Proper WW, what I need to know is, will one Veritas low angle jack plane with 25, 38 and 50 degree bevel up blades essentially provide me with 4 planes - a smoother, jack, jointer and "difficult grain" plane, as those Lee Valley catalogue writers allege?
They say that the use of the different blades can address various types of grain, from easy softwood to gnarly roe grain and such, via use of the appropriate-bevelled blade. They aslo imply that the jack can be used as a smoother and as a jointer (albeit a short one).
Is this claim justified (from your experience) or does one really need a plane dedicated to each task, as traditionally offered by other good plane makers (and Lee Valley themselves, for that matter)?
I would like to buy just one plane rather than three or four, being a naturally mean Northern Britisher and not inclined to collect stuff in an already over-full shed.
Lataxe
Jack planes are just that "jacks of all trades", but can't escape the punch line--"master of none". Smoothers are short for a reason, so they can smooth surfaces without having them machine flat. For many users transitioning to hand planes, it is the smoothing function that is most important. The machines can efficiently flatten and thickness lumber. But the smooth plane (3 or 4) can take those machined boards and have them ready for finish much faster than a ROS.
Challenging figure takes more than just a steep angle, it also takes a very fine mouth meaning either the plane would need fettling beyond just changing the blade to convert from general use to smoothing figured wood or a separate plane would be needed. I keep my York pitch Clark and Williams smoother for such challenges. I doubt its mouth will pass a dollar bill.
For dressing rough lumber, a heavier set and a wider mouth is called for, as well as the jack plane blade with a modest radius to the edge. Can this be done with a finely set smooth plane--yes, but its like working with 220 grit to level the timbers.
You don't need 10 or 15 planes--or even a half dozen, but having several alternatives depending on the job makes using the hand planes much more enjoyable and efficient.
But Steve, I think Lataxe will still get reasonable to good results from his proposed single purchase with the selection of blades. You're right to mention the corollary, 'Master of None.' I suspect Lataxe will eventually find the limitations of owning just one bench plane frutrating enough to spring for a couple more, i.e., a smoothing plane and perhaps a block plane, but that may not be for months or, possibly even years.
I can't say how good the Veritas planes are in action as I've never used one, but most users seem to offer generally favourable reports. I personally find LV Veritas planes kind of ugly and awkward looking with a funny shaped handle. I can't say I'd ever be tempted to buy one if I was buying solely on looks. It would have to be entirely on performance and, that alone isn't enough to persuade me.
Lie-Neilsen and Clifton both somehow make what I find to be (aesthetically) more attractive planes. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I certainly wouldn't want to be arguing that the LV isn't an excellent plane. I have a couple, though not that particular model. As far as esthetics, I am highly impressed by the LV fit and finish, and to me at least their not quite traditional form comes easily to hand. L-N planes are excellent as well, I have used several for brief sessions, but I can't really see them except as extremely well fettled Bedrocks.
My main point is that I do believe that a good smoother, or even two, with one for finely set purposes and the other for more general use is likely to be the best choice for a first plane. This could be the LV bevel up smoother. The "general" use smoother could very well be an older Stanley Bailey for fewer quid than either LV or LN. I haven't used a Clifton, though the last one I saw in a shop would have needed as much attention to flattening the sole as any Bailey off of e-bay. The smoother might not be my choice if I planned to use hand planes exclusively, but 95% of my planing and thicknessing is done with machinery, putting the need for a scrub and jack further down on my list.
I don't think Lataxe would be too long before he'd be back in the market for an extra plane or two, Steve. All the standard bench planes have their strengths and weaknesses and each has a role they're best at.
I'd guess the plane Lataxe would be looking for next would probably be a smoothing plane. It's hard to be completely satisfied with just one plane, even with different blades for different situations. There are times when a jack plane is a bit of a pain in the pants. They're not great at the final smoothing of glued up panels such as table tops as they're too long really.
I agree with you about using more than one smoothing plane in tandem. It's just so much easier to have three on the go at once, each set differently with coarse, medium and light cut settings. I just move from one plane to the next as the job dictates in preference to changing the depth setting of the blade in one plane.
As to aesthetics, I guess I just find the Lee Valley planes a bit odd looking but I've only ever heard positives about their performance. I've not come across a real lemon of a Clifton as you describe. I've only come across good ones but it sounds, from what you say, that it's possible for a poor one to slip through the quality control procedure once in a while. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Lataxe,
Once you jump into the plane thing you will quickly learn the true cheapskate thinks the big four....the penny wise pound foolish thinks one plane, several blades. Likewise, the cheapskate realizes he/she doesn't need top shelf planes (LN) for all activities...and puts the money only in the smoother and block plane.
Thanks all for the advice so far, which is all now churning in my creaky cerebellum.
Richard seems to offer the best logic so far….buy one plane plus extra blades but get ready to buy another or so, if and when experience demands it. (The wait won’t be years though, Richard, as I haven’t got so many years left to squander).
LN and Clifton do, I agree, look more traditional and therefore pleasing to the eye. But if you could see how I dress, you would understand that looks (traditional or otherwise) go right over my head and for me function is everything. (My trousers may look very silly but they absorb all kinds of abuse and perform many functional requirements, including leg-warmer, handkerchief and signal to salespersons, local politicians, proselytizers and other parsitic lifeforms to keep away). But I digress.
The Veritas planes are significantly cheaper than the other two brands and also allow the mouth opening to be changed without dismounting the blade. FWW and others seem to rate them highly and my own experience of their block and bullnose planes (as well as lots of their other stuff) tells me that they are likely to be well designed and engineered. These are the main factors behind my initial leaning towards Veritas.
Still, I would welcome further words of wisdom along the lines offered by Steve S. If there is a significant functional difference between smoother and jack, as he explains, perhaps it would be best to bite the financial bullet and get both right now? After all, I long ago bought both those Record planes in both smoother and jack form.
Anyway, further experienced opinion would be very welcome. In particular, do the low angle planes (with or without the steeper bevel blades) really offer significant advantage over the standard planes?
Lataxe
Bevel up bench planes are not new. They work. However, they did not catch on back when hand plane usage was more common. That said, they do work and a collection of cutters honed at different angles does give you broader capability. There is no disputing that.
My kit of basic bench planes has been in place for years. They're all bevel down.
A jack can certainly be used as a smoother. It suffers as a jointer on long workpieces as you've already figured out. Certainly on shorter stock it will work as a jointer and I don't hesitate to use a jack as a jointer where appropriate.
You won't go wrong buying the LV bevel up jack.
Now this kind of advice is the "essence" one looks for in this forum.
I take all these points, in which one strong message stands out - a smoother is likely to be more of a daily workhorse than a jack. So the jack plane moves down my priority list and is replaced by the smoother.
No one is against the bevel up design and (since it can become like a steeper-bladed planes by simply changing the bevel angle of the blade) that still seems like a good startegy - although I take Charles' point that normal bevel down planes have served generations of WWs very well. Nevertheless, a bevel up smoother it is, as he is not against it.
If my planks and such are already square and straight, courtesy of the planer-thicknesser, tablesaw et al, perhaps I don't need a jointer, even a short one like the jack? The smoother should clean up any less-than perfect machined surfaces whilst not destroying their fundamental squareness or flatness, which need not be perfect anyway, as AdamC points out.
Were I to enjoy all this hand tooling, a jack or jointer might well be the next purchase and the planer-thicknesser can be quiet more often. I doubt I'll ever be enthusiastic enough to scrub-plane rough planks, though.
No one has a bad word for Lee Valley and, whilst LN and Clifton are well-regarded too, they are relatively expensive. There is no argument (other than Richard's aesthetics) against the LV.
If I don't like fettling, this buy-an LV-smoother-first strategy will provide a minimum fettle overhead. (Actually, I quite like a bit of fettling; but not every ten minutes on the same collection of inadequate parts and to the detriment of getting the furniture completed).
Thank you all, once again.
Lataxe
Edited 5/20/2006 7:22 pm ET by Lataxe
A good thread, nicely condensed.
Lat, " a smoother is likely to be more of a daily work horse than a jack"- since I am inclined to agree with that it is music to my ears-especially as having recognised that fact some time ago I came up with my own smoother, but added 20mm to the toe, so making something that is between a smoother and a jack.
Since you are into woodworking for gentlemen I suggest you do not confine yourself to just one or two planes-get a herd of them-the choice is great!
Have a look at http://www.wkfinetools.com, or Handplane central under their hand planes section for additional perspective....Philip Marcou
Philip,
I have a friend who has a blanket excuse for any self-indulgent act he succumbs to: "The Devil made me do it"!
In this instance I fear you are in the role of devil and I am your intended victim. A herd of planes is a seductive prospect and my mind's eye sees them now, in a specially constructed cabinet to which is chained a compliant slave whose duty it is to sharpen, polish and other wise keep them pristine after I have swooshed here and there with them.
Of course, I am only a cheapskate when the ladywife is about, as this is politic. When she has gone off to work (I have not allowed her to retire like moi, as yet) out come the tool catalogues and the drooling begins.
But for the moment, get thee behind me, Beezlecou!
Also, thank you for the Sunday name - Gentleman (not really a possibility for a Tyneside bit of rough like me).
Lataxe
I donno if this helps more than it muddies the water, but I beg to differ re the smoother getting more use than a jack.. I know... a statement without context is no help at all..
I'm one o the queer folk that use nothin but handraulics to prep roughsawn boards.. It's been my experience that I'll spend more time with a jack and try plane than any other... jointer would probably be the mext most used followed by the scrub... smoother brings up the rear... I'll stress the point that all I'm talking about here is time spent in the hand, not the importance of the tool..
If you prefer a prioratised list (bearing your stock selection in mind) I'd go with the jack first followed by the smoother... The longer planes are better at handling longer / wider boards... scrub gets through the worst of the lumps n bumps far faster than anything else I've tried.. nothing comes close to a well tuned smoother for the final few passes over a board though...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Like Mike [Midnight], I find the amount of time the smoother is actually touching wood is fairly minimal--as long as I have done a proper job getting it to that point. I rarely go over a piece of wood with a smoother more than one or two passes.
The jack [and larger planes] on the other hand get used a lot.
Take care, Mike
I wouldn't disparage the LV plane idea, except in my agreement with Steve. Don't underestimate the effect of sole length. Longer soles make straightening stuff easier. Shorter soles make smoothing easier. For example: Most table tops don't need to be flat. They only need to be smooth. With the LV plane, you won't have the choice.
You've said two things that make me think you'd be better off abandoning the one plane idea.
1) You want a cheap solution
2) You don't like fettling.
You can easily find a very cheap jack plane and probably a long try plane as well. You have your pick of wooden or metal planes. Neither has to be a super performer. Then spend the remainder on a nice smoother of your choice. Should be no problem to get three planes for the cost of that one. This should get you everything you want, uncompromised performance, no adjusting or fettling ever, and cheap.
Its no surprise this is the approach pros take. The only trick is you don't have to have a super performing planes for most jobs.
Adam
His tool-porn catalogue has dozens of the lovely things for sale, although the pages are stuck together with drool now, so I forget what they all are.
<chucklin...
precious.. ;)
umm... there's no rule that says ya gotta go out n get em all at once ya know... one at a time as n when need / funds permit is perfectly acceptable.. From personal experience I can promise that other than tickling the blade, you can forget about tuning.. won't need it.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hi Lataxe,
If you enjoy woodworking and saving money, you can make several wood-bodied handplanes for the price of a single LV or LN. Don't get me wrong, I own both LV and LN planes and love them, but I also have a few wood planes that I made and enjoy using.
For the cost of a blade & chipbreaker from Ron Hock, a chunk of hardwood, and a few hours, you, too, can have a shop-made hand plane. For the cost of a second block of hardwood, you can have a second plane body with a different bed angle.
As usual, I spent the money I "saved making my own" on books (it wasn't about saving money; it was about a learning experience and fun weekend project):
The Wooden Plane, John Whelan, ISBN 1-879335-32-8
Fifty Years a Planemaker and User, Cecil Pierce, ISBN 0-9628001-1-2
The Handplane Book, Garrett Hack, ISBN 1-56158-317-0
Making Traditional Wooden Planes, John Whelan, ISBN 1-879335-69-7
Making & Mastering Wood Planes, David Finck, ISBN 0-8069-6163-5
Have fun,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
JD,
I love fun, especially the kind that makes you swear and laugh hysterically. The best kind is the stuff that's nice when it stops (like many a bike race I've been in). Maybe this is what making your own tools is like, eh? Hell to get there but a real good feeling when you do.
I have a bit of sympathy with the idea that woodworkers should spend time making furniture not tools or jigs. On the other hand, why not be a bit 18th Century and regard all grist as fit for one's mill? Maybe I could learn to be a toolmaker too.
I confess I have thought about making spokeshaves and specialist scrapers, being an easy way into tool making and something not obviously on anyone's shelf. Also, those FWW "Tools and Shops" issues have some pretty inspirational reader-made tools in the Readers' Gallery section.
But life is ever shorter and there is a Great List already of things to do! I never could make decisions and will await a puff of wind from this quarter or that to bloe me about a bit.
Mike,
You have sown a bit of a doubt about smoother-first, but I'm not ready to give up the planer-thicknesser entirely so the jack or jointer stays lower in the plane-buying list and the scrub is still not on it. As you say, one at a time (and maybe still just one).
Lataxe
But even 18th c. cabinetmakers purchased their tools--planes, saws, chisels, etc. and generally acquired their wood in rough sawn planks same as now.
Also purchased their veneers and inlays from local speciality shops... For the most part.... Their version of Constantines I guess...
Edited 5/22/2006 11:17 pm ET by Jimmy
You have sown a bit of a doubt about smoother-first, but I'm not ready to give up the planer-thicknesser entirely so the jack or jointer stays lower in the plane-buying list and the scrub is still not on it. As you say, one at a time (and maybe still just one).
Lat.... there's nothing at all wrong with letting woodmunchers do most of the work for you.. nothing at all... only reason I suggested that maybe the jack should still be on the list was in consideration of the amount of stock still to be removed to get the board fully smooth... it's kinda like the profile left by a scrub plane (but on a far smaller scale obviously)... A medium set jack would make short work of taking the peaks down to size... couple of swipes with the smoother should finish it off...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"Maybe this is what making your own tools is like, eh? Hell to get there but a real good feeling when you do."
Lataxe,
Actually, it was quite pleasant and simple. I find these kinds of temporary diversions can free my mind from whatever I'm working on at the time, allowing possible solutions to bubble to the surface unimpeded by conscious thought.
Making a plane or spokeshave isn't terribly difficult or time consuming - a pair can easily be completed in a weekend. I find that the process of making them also helps heighten my awareness of nuances of tool design that can also make me a more informed consumer.
Whether you decide to buy or make your own, relax and enjoy the process,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
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