I am just starting out in carving and am looking for carving tools to carve chairs as well as 18th century furniture.
Can anyone tell me which gauges numbers, spoons, V groove number that I should start with?
I just want to start somewhere with what would be the start of collecting them.
Thank you,
Moataz.
Replies
Moataz,
The question of "what set of carving gouges do I need? is so easy to answer that there are lots of answers to it. Unfortunately, they are all different.
Go to Nora Hall's website, and get her list.
Then go to Lee Grindinger's website and get his list.
One of my favorites is Chris Pye's list, which is on his website.
Go to Sakurdayev's website and get his, which is really long, and he gives it to you for three different brands of tools.
Go to Calvo's website and get his. It is a nice list.
My favorite brand of carving gouges is Pfeil. They sell the "Brienz Collection". Look it up on the Woodcraft website. See if you like that set. It is about $800.
Or you could look in some books.
The book that most experienced carver's have is Paul Hasluck's book, "Manual of traditional woodcarving". I like his list, and he gives you his reasons for each selection. If you are only going to buy one book, that would be my suggestion. Get it at Amazon.
My second favorite book is Richard Butz's "How to carve wood". That is the simplest, most straightforward "how to" book on carving that I know of. He has a very good list of which tools are needed for each specific project in his book. You can get that on Amazon.
After you get more advanced, I'd suggest two other books:
"carving classical styles in wood, by Frederick Onians, and
"Carving Architectural Detail in wood", by Frederick Wilbur.
The best website on carving, by a long shot, is Chris Pye's. Just do a Google search on "Chris Pye" and you'll find his website. You can do the same to find the website's of the others that I named above.
I believe you will find that just buying a set of gouges is not a good way to start. I suggest you get a book first. Heck, buy two: the Hasluck book and the Butz book. Then I suggest you read Hasluck at your liesure. But I suggest you buy the set of gouges that Butz recommends and then follow his instructions to make the five or six carvings that require that set of gouges. By the time you do that, you will know how to use that set of gauges. Later you can buy them as you find you need them.
Many years ago, I looked up everybody's list of which set of gouges to buy and I made an Excel spreadsheet of them. Everyone who has seen it says that it is totally confusing, How do you know which list to follow? Why do all of those authors suggest different lists? Isn't there "one best set of gouges"? The answer is "absolutely not". You'll find you can do different things with the same gouge, and there are lots of ways of getting any specific thing done. Unfortunately, you will not figure that out until you have done lots of carving.
Still, it is fun for you to look up about ten different people to see what they say. Start with the list of people that I named for you. Each of their websites have a list. Indeed, I have a publication by Nora Hall which gives a completely different list than she gives on her website.
Confused yet? I hope not. My simple recommendation is:
Buy the Hasluck book and the Butz book. Read the Hasluck book at you leasure since it is an encyclopedia. BUT FOLLOW THE BUTZ BOOK and do all of the carvings in his chapter in relief carving.
If anyone else gives you any advice which is different than mine,
-----
well then you'll have two opinions. My opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
If anyone gives you a different opinion, ask them WHY?
Here is my WHY.
The Hasluck book is the "classic" book on carving wood. I don't think that many carvers will disagree on that.
The Butz book is the ONLY ONE that gives you:
1) a sequence of sequentially more complex carvings, each of which tells you which gouges you need, and when you need them, and how to use them, and does it with photos. Besides, the carvings are (except for the first) very very nice and are "keepers". The first one is just to get you started.
OF COURSE, I failed to mention the most important thing -- you won't carve very long unless you have stones to sharpen your gouges and you know how to use them.
Traditionally oil stones were the way to go. They work great, but are a bit slow. I don't like waterstones for gouges, because of the problem of keeping them flat. I used sandpaper for years. It works beautifully but it is a pain in the neck to keep replacing the paper, and after a while it gets expensive.
You will get a different opinion on how to sharpen from every carver you talk to. I recommend using diamond stones, and doing your stropping on the Spyderco ultrafine ceramic stone. When I am carving, the only stone I keep on the table is the Spyderco ultrafine ceramic stone. After about ten minutes of using a gouge, I use the ceramic stone on it. Once in a while I use the DMT "Green" extra fine diamond stone. Unless you damage the edge of one of your gouges, I believe those are the only two stones you need. I have the DMT diamond stones in all four grits for other uses.
I hope that helps.
I see you live in Maryland. I live in Burke, VA. If that is a reasonable driving distance from you, I'd be happy to show you my stuff, and help get you started.
Have fun. I really enjoy carving.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
If I gave the Starbucks employee (they have a fancy word that I don't remember) your advice and $5, I think they'd give me a blank look instead of a coffee.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Don't say that. Mel's response was very clever. He included many good leads, and books that will help the OP. And I think for someone who wants to carve but isn't sure what sort of carving they want to do, his advice is 100% correct.And btw, I think his response has been the traditional response to this question, even among the best carvers in the country. What I'm saying is fairly new, and based on the work of this one carver, who unlike perhaps any other active 18th c carver, has seen more, done more, had unfettered access to the best. I feel guys like this almost have a responsibility to share, so I'm hoping he will offer classes soon. Allan Breed is another similar sort. Adam
Adam,
Yes, Mel's response was very good. I was merely replying to his line about Starbucks.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Mel (aka 9619) is trying to be helpful and funny. That's his schtick. He's also a good carver and I think a dabbler in many things (and I mean that admiringly).
But there is a real answer to your question. You can find it in FWW. There was an article by Mack Headley where he listed the basic tools necessary for ball and claw work. Search for cabriole knees as well. This is the place you should start. From this basic set, you will need specific additional gouges for knees and chair backs, then still more for Newport shells and the like. What surprised me are how few tools are actually needed to accomplish fairly sophisticated carvings.
18th c carvers in London and Philadelphia used specific and somewhat unique techniques to produce the designs many admire. The so-called "London School" exhibits an unpolished "straight from the gouge" roughness that Eugene Landon (search in FWW) is particularly good at. Their stabbing technique may be similar to Butz. I was recently recommended a Hayward book on Wood Carving that includes the stabbing technique specifically for acanthus leaves.
Adam
I've been to three classes on carving, one at the local Woodcraft, mostly a waste, but two much more interesting--one with Phil Lowe on basics, the other with Al Breed on Newport carving. Each had a list of about a dozen recommended gauges. There were about 3 overlaps, total.
Now I am sure that any of those craftsmen teaching the classes could easily have revised the patterns to the small degree needed to accommodate the variations in tools, but it is harder for the beginner.
My advise is to first chose a project, and then acquire the tools needed for that particular carving. Particular if you are teaching yourself, you can then expand from there.
Steve,I have a friend who carves for the Philadelphia Museum of Art. And he echoes what you re alluding to (did I get it right this time). Individual carvers had a standard bag of tricks they used over and over again. It may have been partly based on their tool kits. So just to be clear, I think we see carvers defining their work using their tools. Beyond that, I'm saying that certain styles always have certain types of carvings which really can be done with a standard set of tools. I've been nagging my friend about teaching a class. This is something I hope he works out soon for his classes. Unlike a lot of woodworkers, this guy has spent his career just carving 18th c furniture. He's not a cabinetmaker per se. And he's directly copying, or filling in 18th c masterpieces.Have a look. Sorry no blurry pictures or outrageous claims.http://antiquesandfineart.com/articles/article.cfm?request=872Adam
That is a beautiful high chest. I doubt it would fit in my livingroom. Frankly I'd prefer to see it with New England flames or even better a Chapin cartouche and finials, but that's just my preference. Three points extra if you can spell Chapin's first name without peeking at the picture.
Here is a Chapin version http://http://www.framemuseums.org/jsp/fiche_oeuvre.jsp?STNAV=&RUBNAV=&CODE=1213889022801&LANGUE=1&RH=MUSEEsUSA&OBJET_PROVENANCE=COLLECTION
Edited 7/17/2008 6:35 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Edited 7/17/2008 6:37 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Steve, spelling it is not difficult, but how do you pronounce it?
Ell - a -fal- et? or E - lie - foll - it?
I don't know, do you or anyone else know the proper pronunciation of that name?
Mike
I don't really know, but the Wadsworth Atheneum, in Hartford almost certainly has a curator or two who must know. I've seen that high chest in the flesh up there and it really is something special.
http://www.behindthename.com/name/eliphalet
-Steve
Thanks, but it still gives us two variants. I suppose we have to trace it back from what part of England he derived.
Sorry no blurry pictures or outrageous claims.
C'mon Adam! We live for that stuff. This is FWW, after all. No need to tone it down for the SMC folks.
Bring on the outrageous claims! Bring on the fuzzies!
Lee
In response to Mel's first posting here you say, "But there is a real answer to your question."
As in, Mel's answer was not real? It wasn't your answer, but who says yours is real?
I thought Mel's answer was well laid out for the OP. He pointed out one will get a variety of answers. He took time to provide some good education to the OP that went beyond his own preferences.
Alan - planesaw
I read Mel's response as "there is no single answer, go here, read this etc etc." I think I interpreted his post correctly. Seek controversy elsewhere.Adam
Adam,
I am in no way seeking controversy. Disagreeing with someone is one thing, but this, as in some of your posts in the past have been, seems simply insulting other people because you disagree with them.
Your post to Mel came across as a "put down." It was if you were saying something like, "That's Mel, always trying to be funny and cute so I'll give you the real answer." You did say, "real answer." That would generally mean the other one refereneced (Mel's) is not a real answer.
Had you said something more like, OP, let me add something to Mel's recommendations, or, You might also check out .... But you didn't. You came across as if you were being cutely tolerant of Mel's advice (as in, he doesn't know much compared to what I know) so let me give you the real answer.
Either you will hear my intent, or you'll miss it or ignore it. I truly am not trying to argue. You are a very experienced and knoweldgeable person. I just wish you would let your knowledge and advice be your contribution, not the negativity.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 7/20/2008 3:46 pm ET by Planesaw
I meant "specific" answer versus Mel's (in essence) "it varies". And that's only true because the OP mentioned 18th c furniture carving. Otherwise, this is a woodworking forum, not writer's workshop. I'm sure you could find some grammatical or spelling errors to chastise me for. My advice is for you to assume folks here have the best intentions. I'm going to try to take my advice with regards to you. Thanks,Adam
Adam,
Your intent is accepted. And, true, Knots is not a writer's workshop, but the words people use (woodworkers included) generally reflect the intent and personality of the writer.
I also agree that we should assume people here have the best of intentions. The quality of workmanship on a piece of furniture tells you something about the person who made it and their skill level. Behavior patterns of individuals are the same way. What is said and how it is said reveals a lot about an individual -- regardless of what they say they intended.
Happy sawdust.
Alan - planesaw
Sometimes people see what they want to see in things. Maybe you are reading in what you were hoping to find. When I wrote Mel's post was "helpful and funny", I didn't mean cute. I wasn't being patronizing or dismissive. I meant (get this now) his post was: helpful and funny. I believe that's an accurate statement. I wrote it because sometimes funny posts get passed over. Mel absolutely has a habit of combining helpful with funny. All accurate statements.As much as I enjoy defending my core values and poor writing skills on a public forum, I fail to see what any of this has to do with carving tools for 18th c furniture. Maybe you need to start a new thread entitled "What I don't like about Adam" and you can flog me there. I'm sure others will enjoy joining that discussion as well. Can we agree to go back to carving tools now?Adam
Adam,
I think you're gaining weight and are follicly challenged. Oh, and another thing; one of your stockings has slipped down beyond your knee. If you are in need of safety pins I have a ready supply I'll loan ya.
Ooops, sorry wrong discussion.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"I'm sure you could find some grammatical or spelling errors to chastise me for."
Oh, Adam, I am sure we can find a whole lot more of your failings to point out, but who wants to take the time, not to mention the effort. Not all of us feel the need to so damn dogmatic as you in our every utterance.
None-the-less, generally it is recommended that one not end a sentence with a preposition (see excerpt of yours, quoted above). To be fair, this is not without some grammatical bemusement, as i believe it was Sir Winston Churchill, when chided for this, retorted "This is something up with I will not put!"
I have to agree with poster SteveSchoene, the best way is to pick a starting project and go with the tools outlined by the instructor to complete the project.
The Mack Headley FWW video is excellent if you want to learn how to carve a 18th century shell. Nora Hall has a great video on the Newport Shell and Phil Lowe has a great video on the ball and claw feet. I have all three and they all include a bill-of-materials for the necessary tools to complete the project.
Edited 7/17/2008 6:15 pm ET by BOBABEUI
I'd also recommend the Pfeil Swiss Made gouges. I'd choose tools around 3/8" to start with, and not much larger. A smaller tool can do everything a larger tool can, but a larger tool cannot do what a smaller tool can. Get a variety of sweeps to start off with and a V-tool. I don't do a whole lot of carving but own a #3, 5, 7, and a V. The #3 gets the most use.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Moataz:
Other posters on this thread have given you good advice - I'd follow it.
If, however, you choose not to (and a lot of us don't and wind up with a fair number of tools we don't use too often), I can make a couple of observations and suggest a few tools based on a 2 year apprenticeship with a master carver focused on reproducing 18th century furniture:
Observations -
1) Most of 18th century (at least American 18th century) furniture carved ornamentation is based on relief carving. Even some things that you'd assume are "in the round" such as cartouches, are actually high-relief carvings.
2) A great deal of current "American" school carving is based on carving with knives and/or power carving equipment to produce caricatures and wildlife, and the techniques and results are radically different than 18th century furniture carving. Just be aware of this if you sign up for a carving class at a local woodworking store - you will definitely want to ask what the focus is before plunking down your $$$.
Tools:
Relief carving with traditional tools is based on a 5-step process -
1) Tracing (i.e., laying your design down on the wood, typically with carbon paper)
2) Outlining - cutting a rough trench around your carving.
3) Setting in - using gouges to closely trace the outline of your work (outlining relieves the wood so that you don't crush your line with this step)
4) Grounding - reducing the wood around your design to a consistent, lower level.
5) Modeling - shaping the wood within your outlined design to cast shadows and suggest what the design is representing (a seashell or acanthus leaves, for example).
To this end, here is a small set of tools that you will find useful. You will need more as you carve more complicated designs, but these are a start - note that the gouge numbers are the Pfiel numbering system, which is slightly different than the Sheffield numbers. I'd recommend Pfiel tools, not necessarily because they're better than any other brand (they're not, though they're good tools), but because they come very sharp and are ready to go. Learning sharpening is a critical skill, but it's nice not to have to be an expert at it out of the gate to put your new tools in service:
45 degree V-tool, 12 mm width (number 12 in the Pfiel numbering system)
#2 gouge, 16 mm
#3 gouge, 10 mm
#3 gouge, 20 mm
#5 gouge, 8 mm
#5 gouge, 16 mm
#7 gouge, 8 mm
#7 gouge, 16 mm
#9 gouge, 7 mm
#9 gouge, 15 mm
#11 gouge, 3 mm
#25 back bent gouge, 13 mm
This certainly isn't a comprehensive list - you will definitely need more, but this will get you started with basic relief carving.
All,
I have really enjoyed reading everyone's respones to the OP's question of "What gouges do I need to start with?" We have all seen this question asked often on Knots. Recently it was asked by Bob of Kidderville acres. It might be beneficial to the OP to search for that thread, which mirrors this one. The OP has gotten a lot of advice, much of it is mutually contradictory. It is very difficult for a newbie to read 15 pieces of mutually contradictory advice, and to turn it into something useful. It is much easier for an "oldbie" to do that, but we are dealing here with a carving newbie. How does a carving newbie decide whether to heed the advice of taking a course from someone like Allan Breed, who the OP does not yet know is a great carver and a very nice guy and an excellent teacher, or to take the advice of a poster who says, "Here is a specific set of gouges that you should get.", or to take the my advice to buy some books and do some research before buying gouges.Let me give some info on how to make that decision. My bias is STRONGLY AGAINST a newbie taking a course unless he or she is quite wealthy. If money is no object, than just do it. It is fun and you'll learn a lot. Buy think of it another way. Say you are of average means. What will it cost to take a carving course from one of the greats? Here is my way of estimating:
- cost of course - say $700
- cost of transportation to and from course - maybe $600.
- cost of meals and hotel - who knows, maybe $800 for the week.
- cost of taking a week off of work - let's guess at $1000.
So one might roughly estimate the cost of such a course would be around $3000. WOW. $3000 is a lot of money to many of us. I would never recommend that a person who may or may not stick with carving start out with an investment of say $600 in equipment and $3000 for a course. At the Woodcraft store in Springfield, VA, all of the questions of carving get passed to me. All of the newbies have the same question: What gouges should I buy? (where have we heard this before). Originally I would give them a copy of my Excel spreadsheet which showed the recommendations of about a dozen top carvers, but that just frustrated them. So then I took another tack. I take them to the book section of the store, give them a cup of coffee and suggest four or five books that I listed in my first post, and ask them to look through them to find the type of carving that interests them. Some spend hours going through the books. ALMOST ALL OF THEM END UP BUYING THE BUTZ BOOK because it covers so many types of carving (chip, relief, in the round, lettering, architectural, whittling) and because it gives you a sequence of increasingly more difficult and interesting carving for each type, and it tells you which tools you need to do each, and it gives great photos and instructions on how to do it. I recommend that people not buy gouges on their first trip to the store. Get a book. Most get the Butz book, and I recommend they go home and read it and then come back. I have found ####number of people carry through on this and work their way through the carvings of the style they like, and they learn a good deal about how to carve.The cost of the Butz book, the gouges, and a nice set of sharpening stones and slips is less than $500. Chris Pye has a book which recommends a specific set of gouges and then takes you through a sequence of carvings with instruction. To me, this is a sensible way to start, at a sensible price.dIf you decide to stick with carving, then I recommend that you think about taking a course from someone like Allan Breed. You will get far more out of a week with him after you have some experience than for a first course. I didn't tell you the whole story about the carving newbies at Woodcraft. When they show an interest in carving, I not only show them the books and see what they are interested in, I also show them how to hold a gouge and to make various cuts, and to sharpen their gouges. I watch them and give them feedback, and offer them more help when they want it. I have a cadre of people who keep coming back and asking questions. They come back with their gouges and a piece of wood and ask specific questions, and those are easy to handle. This initial help really greases the skids of learning from a book like Butz' or like Pye's. It doesn't take more than an hour. I figure that I have been successful, not if someone buys some gouges, but if they are actively carving three months later, and especially if they keep doing it. Any fool can buy a set of tools. The trick is to get and keep the motivation to use them.I hope I haven't offended anyone with my off the wall ideas on helping folks who want to start carving. Just because my ideas work for me, it doesn't mean they will work for you. So all of our ideas are valid. It is fun to me to see how different people handle the same issue -- such as how to help a new carver.I especially want to thank Adam for his kind words. While I disagree with his suggestion of suggesting a newbie take a course (under most circumstances), I am not "taking offense" at Adam, or at others who suggested specific sets of gouges. Rather, I am merely providing an alternative approach, and the (overly long) explanation of why I suggest that approach.I hope the OP, who lives in MD, is close enough to VA to come to my house and try my gouges, and look at my books and get a lesson in sharpening and in using various types of gouges -- all for free. I enjoy carving so much that I get excited when someone else shows an interest in carving, and I am happy to give them a hand in determining what they want to do. Remember the term "Educate" comes from "e ducere" = "to lead out of". Education should be the helping of another person determine a course of action, and not to force on on him or her. Y'all have fun. I am.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Good post, Mel.
Just like there are lots of ways to arrive at successful dovetails, there are lots of ways to arrive at successful carvings. I think it's impossible to give meaningful advice on the tools subject without knowing more specifically what type of carving someone plans to do. Relief, in the round, large, small, classic period, etc.??
Once you know that, you can tell them the 3 or four basic tools they ought to start with and hand them a piece of wood. Subsequent purchases will be obvious to them once they have carved a bit: e.g., a larger gouge would have been good here; a fishtail would have made that easier; etc.
Edited 7/18/2008 11:50 am ET by Samson
Samson,
Thank you.
As Mom used to say, you can't lead someone out of the forest if they don't think they are lost.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Moataz,
When I first decided I wanted to learn carving it seemed to me like the age old question, which came first - the chicken of the egg. Should I invest in the tools first or invest in learning how to use them first.
So all I can tell you is what I experienced. What I did was buy some chisels and jumped into the water, butt over tea kettle! Caution: This may not work for everyone and I think therein lies the rub - or chicken issue.
You see, there's this strange thing called wood. Then there's an even stranger thing called a carving gouge/chisel. Until I put the gouge to the wood I had no idea what to expect.
Eeeeegaads, that nice little vein I meant to cut has all these dang chunks torn out all over the place. Hmmmm, I wonder what will happen if I cut the other way. Ahhhhh, that's better. Oh no, what the hay!? Oh, the grain changed direction - dang. That damn thing dull already - nope.
One thing that may ease your angst is that I really think you need to decide what kind of carving you want to do - at least to start with. That will tell you quite a bit about what to get for tooling. From there you can add to your arsenal of chisels/gouges.
Another, and perhaps the most important of all - have fun! You'll be amazed at the hidden talent that lies within when you start carving. Of course there will always be those that don't share that same enthusiasm but hey, what do they know?
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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