I’ve read about sixteen versions of forming an edge on a card scraper. Might as well read some more.
What’s your technique and thought process with it?
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Replies
I use version #13, with an occasional touch of #8.
-Steve
Now that sounds just like the smartazz kind of answer I'D give.
LMAO.
So, don't you toss in a smidgen of #7 when it's needed? Or a tad of #12?
Seems obvious, 13+8+7+12/4=method #10."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
13+8+7+12/4=31. 13+8+7+(12/4)=10
Oh, puhleeeze.... #7 is for dinosaurs. And everybody knows that #12 only works with softer steels, not modern alloys.
-Steve
I wrote a piece about sharpening the card scraper on my blog, which you can view at the following link. The key is the very light pressure when flattening out the hooks drawn from the edge, before turning the burr.
http://www.rlmillard.typepad.com
Rob Millard
Rob, I'll read that. Thanks much.
Good stuff on the card scraper. I like your comments on learning to do it by eye and feel. In the recent past, I was curious about trying Bryan Boggs method of putting the scraper in a block of wood to keep it straight. Its OK but really.. its not needed. I also don't like the wood getting in the stones/diamond stone. Free hand works well.
Carbide in the handle: clever. I have several handles and lots of useless bits. Next tool.
The spray lacquer(waterbased). You sound very pleased with it. From your article it seems like you get a nice flow out and it dries in a couple hours is workable.
Question Rob
Do you use this on veneered mahogany? It seems like that would be a long time to have a moist veneer over hide glue?? Just wondering???
dan
Dan,
The top was veneered with hide glue, but there was a barrier coat of shellac that may have helped protect the glue from the moisture in the water based lacquer.
Even without the shellac, I wouldn't be worried about the glue being harmed by the moisture. I once hammer veneered a couple of drawer fronts and decided the next day that I didn't like the look. It took an unbelievable amount of water and heat to remove that veneer, so I came to the conclusion that hide glue is far more water resistant than I was lead to believe.
I'm glad you liked the card scraper thing.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Good to know Rob. I have been fooling around with some scraps and hide. I used the 192 and 251 gram glues to fix small 6" x 6" squares to a ground. I have used a bunch of these to see if I get a good enough bond to apply slow drying varnishes and some oils. I was hoping for some failures due to the wet liquid reactivating the hide -- but so far so good.
I've been trying some hide with a press. To get it to work, I've added some urea to the mix and the results have been good. Some to the other knotters like the yellow glues and the other slow drying glues for the press. Granted, they give you extra working time but little problems just can not be repaired as easily as the hide.
I was wondering Rob, do you use the higher gram 251or the 192 when doing large surfaces like the table top?
Do you find heating the grounds before you apply the glue helps much? I have tried warming the grounds a bit to keep the glue wet a bit longer and this seems to help with the hammer technique.
Any inputs are appreciated.
dan
Dan,
It is my understanding that hide glue is pretty resistant to most chemicals other than water and vinegar, although I have heard (but not seen) that alcohol will cause it to crystallize.
Until recently I thought I always used the 251 GS glue, but I found that the last 10 pounds I bought was of the 192 GS. I couldn't see any difference is use between the two. I did use some the pearl glue once and did not like it, but many people report excellent results with it.
I have not heated the ground on any of the pieces I have veneered. I have always thought that the faster the glue gels the better, since it is such a simple matter to reheat it. This opinion was reinforced when I tried to hammer veneer on a 100 degree day. Leaving aside my mood at working in such ungodly heat, the process was much more frustrating than when I do it in a 45-50 degree shop.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Thank you sir. I have cussed a couple boards I have veneered in the heat and humidity. I have found veneering in 70-80 temps just great. Everything seems to just happen for me. I do the same thing as always but the temperature seems to assist the whole process. It makes a nice difference when you're doing big panels.
dan
Rob,
Thanks very much for the tip about using a broken carbide endmill to burnish a card scraper's edges. After reading that on your site, I recalled a broken solid carbide router bit I had stashed away somewhere. I don't know why I never threw it out, but when I went to look for it, there it was in my junk drawer.
There is about 3/4 inch of the shank left, 1/4 inch in diameter. Not wanting to invest too much time in something that I wasn't sure would work, I simply drilled a shallow quarter inch hole in a hunk of wood and shoved the broken bit into it. There's maybe 3/8 inch protruding.
Because the stump is so short, I had to whittle down the "handle" I had improvised in order to gain some clearance near the carbide.
But the thing works just great. And I also am now using one of my fine diamond "paddles" along the flat of the scraper blade after filing the edge, again thanks to your tip.
My first try with the new scraper fettling tools was an unqualified success. Fast and easy, and that carbide really turns the burr. I had some sweet edges with which to level some maple I had made into a faux raised panel unit to go on the back of a client's kitchen island cabinet. Short work with such a nice tool.
So, thanks for teaching an old dawg some new tricks...
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,
Thanks!
I was doing a class last week and one of people said that they had been using scrapers for years, but never got the results like the ones sharpened this way, with so little effort.
I worked part time for a few years at a machine shop, and they had a stack of broke endmills and I knew there had to be a use for them.
The diamond hone thing, came from paranoia about getting oil on the unfinished wood.
Thanks again
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
1. Remove old hook with a mill file
2. Use a diamond stone (220x) to polish the edges and faces
3. Follow up with a 8000x ceramic stone
4. Burnish with a burnisher - 2 strokes square to the edge and 2 at an approximately 7 degree angle to either side.
Or something like that.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Wow, you go to 8k. That's the full Monty.
Yessir. I have seen Japanese stones which are referred to as "polishing" stones. They go up to 80000x. Yes, that's and eight followed by four zeros.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
They must be for slicing a shaving off a molecule.
Mr C,
Using a plane with a high cutting angle on the nasty stuff helps me avoid too much scraping. Just as well - I struggle to get that burr on (or is it that I struggle to know if the burr is actually there and as it should be)?
My favourite scraper is a simple rectangle of 1/8 inch thick steel that Mr Marcou sent me. The faces and edges are flat and polished to make very pointy 90 degree corners There is no burr and yet the beast will remove both gossamer shavings and wafts of super-fine dust, depending on the angle and the pressure used when scraping. It won't remove "thick" gossamer shavings however. It also helps to burnish those corners - a very light pass with the burnisher, which apparently hardens the edge somehow.
Because the thing is so thick it also dissipates the heat and can be just picked up and used without a holder or your fingers getting hot. Nor does it chatter. The steel seems hard, as lots of scraping can be done before the sharp corner wears and gossamers are replaced by dust; but it's still reasonably easy to bring back to sharpness. Philip tells me it was made from an old blade out of a giant bandsaw!
I also have convenional scraper blades (0.6mm, 45 degree edge) in a Veritas scraper plane and a cabinet scraper. These really need a burr which I may or may not have got on using the conventional methods of flattening then polishing edge and face; then burring freehand. I recently bought books by David Charlesworth, who has a simple jig and method for getting that burr on accurately. It involves using a bit of MDF clamped to the bench edge to guide the burnisher to the right angle. I'll be giving it a try.
But even without the burr, most scraper blades will still scrape a shaving with just the sharp edge, as long as both face and edge are flat and polished (to plane-blade standard). However, a burr seems to make the blade perform with less pressure and also seems to give more control of the cutting action via variation of the scraping angle. Yoiu can also get a "thicker" shaving with a burr. The burred blades also work better when bowed by the scraper plane or the cabinet scraper mechanisms. (At least they do if and when I manage to get the burr on, somehow).
Lataxe
I never imagined using something as thick as 1/8". Does the piece have any curvature to it at all?
B,
No curve in the blade, which is just over 3 inches on the long sides and just under 2 inches on the short sides. All 8 edges can be used to scrape. The short side is good for little bumps and for edges; the long side is good for larger areas, although one must still be careful not to create dips, hollows or tracks.
Its good for cleaning saw kerf marks from the edge of something cut on the TS, for instance - although you wouldn't want to use it to deal with BS kerf marks, unless the BS blade was a very fine one (a plane is much quicker then). Otherwise it's quick to grab and use wherever there's something just a little rough in one or two spots; or where I've left one or two of those minimal plane tracks when smoothing.
Lataxe
blewcrowe,
Two years ago, in the fall, I attended the LN show and spent quite a bit of time watching Chris Swartz demonstrating scrapers. At one point he stopped and looked up to see where Tom Nielson was and then quickly took out his Veritas and gave the scraper a couple of strokes. I asked "how come?" Chris said Tom might get made upset. I told Chris two years earlier Tom use the Veritas when he demonstrated the scraper to me at the Springfield, MA show... it's simple, repeatable, no vise required.
Just flatten real well on whatever, square up using a two inch block with a bandsaw kerf, stroke it with a Veritas.
Edited 4/15/2008 5:33 am ET by BG
I've been using scrapers for years, but ever after that perfect burr. I'd like to watch a pro do it.
Sounds ridiculously simple, but it works.
First I sand the faces on a 6" x 48" stationary sander. The belt that I use is absolutely spent and feels as if it has no abrasive. Next I hold the scraper at 90 degrees to sand the edges. Sander makes it dead flat and dead square. Use a light touch. The large belt disapates heat quickly so I've never had a problem burning an edge.
Next, I burnish the edge with a regular burnisher. A screwdriver would work. The first pass, I hold the burnisher at a very small angle, maybe 85 degrees to the edge. Second pass at a slightly bigger angle. The third pass at the angle I want (bigger angle more aggressive) and on the third pass, I can feel the edge rolling over.
I should also add that while my belt is too worn to make sparks, a person should recognize that sparks and wood dust don't mix well. :O
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com/
Edited 4/15/2008 4:30 pm by JsHerbel
Yet another reason I need a large free standing sanding station. <g>
Denny
Exactly!
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com/
Edited 4/15/2008 4:31 pm by JsHerbel
I'll tell my missus you highly recommend I get one.
I've learned to not to mention tool purchases to the missus. They all look the same to her and she never notices.
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com/
A wise man.
go to http://www.eaglejigs.com/
and watch the video on the e-z bur
I have a homemade jig that's sort of like that. But it looks like a great link anyway. Thanks.
Denny
The secret to any cutting tool is preparing the two surfaces where the cutting edge meets.
I hone both the flat edge and the top edge of the scraper much like one would do the back of a wood chisel. Once that is done then I use a polished burnisher. The burnisher is polished brightly and smooth like something that is chromed. It is smooth like glass. When I use the burnisher I use light finger pressure. It will produce a slight burr that is razor sharp. To resharpen the scraper just use the burnisher held at an angle and flat on the surface to remove the burr. Then reburnish the scraper again. It can be done about five times before the scraper has to have the edge honed again. When honing the surface and edge in both a hand and cabinet scraper I hone the edge and surface at 90 degrees to one another to produce a square edge. I hone and burnish a hand and cabinet scraper at the same angles.
Gb,
That info about the polish of the burnisher itself makes sense, especially given you seem to have mastered the re-burring with a minimal effort.
I am going to give my burnisher the polishing of it's life now. It's a Two Cherris hard round bar on a stick but lacks a shiny finish although it seems fairly smooth. Perhaps it can't be truly smooth unless its shiney however.
Is it better to acquire something that has already been manufactured to be both hard and chrome-like in the surface or did you spend time to get a standard burnisher into that condition? If so could you say a little about the process you used to get the chrome-like finish?
Thanks in anticipation.
Lataxe
I have several burnishers. Some are triangular and others are round. The best prepared one I purchased from Ron Hock. I took the round ones and put them in a drill press to make it easier to prepare them. For the final polish I used diamond compound. I think it is about 14,000 grit. I have seldom had to polish any of them again. When I burnish a scraper I have a small tomato can where I rolled up some felt to fill the can and cut the top of the felt smooth. Periodically I spread some oil and kerosene on top of the oiled felt in the can. It keeps the felt oily for things like scrapers and wood chisels. I also use the oiled felt on any tools with metal bottoms such as a cabinet scraper. It oils so slightly that the oil never gets on the wood.I failed to mention that before I roll the the edge I burnish the sides and edges where the edge will be rolled. I hold the burnisher flat with the side and flat on the edge. It seems to compress or smooth any hone marks and compresses the steel to a degree. It does produce a very sharp crisp 90 degree edge before the rolled edge is created. Then it takes a very slight amount of pressure to roll the edge. By making sure the edges and sides are well prepared you can have four cutting edges on both a hand scraper and cabinet scraper that can be rerolled about five times each if you are careful.
Edited 4/19/2008 4:08 pm by gb93433
Gb,
Thank you for that excellent advice. Nothing like a bit of play and experience to extract an improved and practical method.
It's evening time now and the whusky glass has just been filled. But tomorrow I am mostly polishing a burnisher!
Lataxe
You are welcome.I have many scrapers that I bought years ago. They are Sandvik 475. I did a search and it looks like they have been replaced with something else. Some of the scrapers I made are from some old steel blades like what we used years ago on a table saw. It is a lot of work to cut them and then file them straight. They do work well though.
And this week "I are mostly bin eatin' radishes".(I assume that was a "fast show" reference, otherwise that'll confuse the hell outa ya!)
Pr,
....and there might be owuls!!
Lataxe, Jessie-fan and envious of his shed with that sliding door, not to mention his many esoteric hobbies conducted in that gung-ho obsessive-compulsive fashion.
Edited 4/20/2008 4:45 am ET by Lataxe
Tony sent me a couple of lengths of carbide as well. I handled one. It has become my favourite burnisher. It is slim, shiny, smooth, slick and hard. It seems to take less effort to turn a burr, and the result is one that is smooth and leaves a clean surface.
Here it is (bottom) with the Crown burnisher (top) for reference.
View Image
Thanks again Tony.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 4/20/2008 8:07 am ET by derekcohen
Lat,
"Is it better to acquire something that has already been manufactured to be both hard and chrome-like in the surface or did you spend time to get a standard burnisher into that condition"
Two items spring to mind: the first is a length of carbide rod which already has a section that is mirror like- Tony Zaffuto kindly sent me a couple. I intend to fit handles. These must be the ultimate burnisher material, but I have yet to try them. You might ask him for one
The second is what I have been using up until now- a "needle" from a big roller bearing. Very hard steel, polished like a mirror. Simply mounted into a brass handle.See de pics.
Two items which are hard as hell and need no preparation or maintenance-ever. They gotta be hard to do the job.Philip Marcou
Phillip, Derek and others,
I've got a few more pieces of carbide, should anyone want one. When I say a few, I mean less than half a dozen at the moment!
I'll make the same offer I made on the "Old Tools list": These will be sent out via SOTCTO, which stands for"Standard Old Tool Convoluted Offer". This means you send me your address (and your email address so I can respond) and I'll mail you one gratis, no charge for carbide or postage. If I happen to not have enough, I'll keep your address on file until I have a piece for you.
The carbide is used for tooling pins at my manufacturing plant. It is no longer useable for a variety of reasons including microscopic wear or a break. This carbide is very highly polished and has a natural lubricity.
Tony Z.
The small burnisher sold by LV for gooseneck scrapers is carbide. Costs 7 or 8 bucks.
Jim
Thanks.
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