I’ve been trying to sharpen a couple of card scrapers. I’ve watched the video’s and read all the archives I could find and would be pulling my hair out if I had any.
I file, hone ,burnish refile rehone , reburnish. Lots of preasure – a little preasure nothing seems to work. I spent the entire day today trying different variations. all I get is a burr that lasts for a couple strokes. I tried bjoth a thick and thin scraper same results. Two strokes and then dust. I can get a polished sharp edge on chisles but I’m at a loss here. I suspect something in the burnishing process.
Iwould be greatful for any help.
thanks
Replies
hey man,
im in the same boat.
last week i found an old stanley scraper, m88, i think. i followed the instructions for sharpening and burring it that i found on the net. beautiful gossamer shavings came next. i suck at card scraper sharpening. it's been hit and mostly miss. sometimes i have been able to get a burr. mostly not.
there have been several threads lately about our problem. one of which sent me back to the shop for yet one more try...
nothing but dust.
i just went and checked and it's the STANLEY 80M.
good luck brother,
eef
jcrum,
I just wonder if your being to aggressive. I was at a LN show two weeks ago and an expert took us trough the process. He admonished us to keep our thumbs touching at all times while scraping, let the tool do the work(instead of brute force) and re-hone every 10-15 minutes. Re-honing consisted of placing the scraper on the bench, 1/2" hanging off edge, four strokes at 90 degrees, four strokes at 5 degrees....flip and repeat.
Edited 12/21/2008 9:52 pm ET by BG
BG is likely correct - too much pressure when burnishing is creating a large and fragile hook, which then breaks off. Try lighter pressure and fewer strokes.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Tage Frid described the amount of pressure to burnish the edge as about the same as you’d shake a delicate lady’s hand with, very, very light. Once he taught me how I have alway hade very sharp scrapers.
Boy you guys are quick.
I think maybe I am using too much force when burnishing. I'm gonna try again. New day, sometimes it's best to walk away try again later.
Thanks, wish me luck.
Thanks to all for the scraper advice. I tried again and I am having much better results though I'm still working on getting a more agressive burr. The fine ones are improved.
Napie, your post about shaking hands with an old woman was the key. What I thought was light preasure was way too much before. Begining to think the sore thumbs might be worth it. This site is great.
Merry Christmas all.
Now that you are getting the burnishing to work lose your honing step... file and burnish and scrape. You'll be much more satisfied with the amount of work your scraper will do. I like a fine toothed file when I can get them, but I've filed plenty of scrapers with plain old bastard cut files. A long file is better as it tends to keep your edges straight... I like a 24" plas T cut or fine cut. Honing will round your edges a bit (enough to make a LARGE difference). It's okay if you want a superfine cut... but I like My scrapers to get a little work done.
When you turn the burr use no more pressure than you would to butter lightly toasted bread.
In everything thing you do with a hand tool - sawing, chiseling, etc. use half the pressure or force and you'll come a lot closer than you've ever been to having the tool perform as it was designed to perform.
Edited 12/22/2008 2:33 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Again, act like the old experienced bull peering over the fence at the young bull charging among the cows!
T.Z.
You know if you think about it that is why those old masters could work at the bench 12 hours a day 6 days a week. They let the tools work. <!----><!----><!---->
Yup.
TTM,
Ahhh, so true.
I bought the LV burnisher and it works quite well, but the best is an old screwdriver.
Kinda like when applying a finish to a piece, several light coats instead of one big glob. Would ye also suggest the thinner the scraper the lighter the touch?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/23/2008 7:10 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Yes I would.
Also nothing wrong with feeling for the burr after each pass with the burnisher. Fingertips are mightly sensistive.
Fingertips are mightly sensistive.
Yeah, across the edge as opposed to along the edge! Leave the shearing to the scraper, eh? 'Rmember that discussion?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/23/2008 7:26 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Jcrum,
Here is yet another piece for you to read on sharpening the scraper, that I hope will help.
http://rlmillard.typepad.com/ (look at the March 11th entry)
If you need a piece of carbide as described in the article, just email me with your address and I'll pop one in the mail to you.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
I'd like one too, but can ye do me one eentsy favor?
Autograph it fer me?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/23/2008 7:34 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
that's a great article. i'm going to try it tomorrow. i hope everyone enjoyed it as much as me. i'm hoping an old screwdriver or an old valve will work almost as good. thank you again. i was beginning to think that using the card scraper was going to be rather expensive since it looked like i would have to buy new scrapers each time they got dull.
Hi,
Yep,I certainly did. I'm currently doing the learning thing with my LV scraper plane,and not having much success just now.[I know they are different beasts,but I'm determined to use it to good effect].
I have since purchased the Veritas scraper card holder,[Whimp!,sluggard! do I hear from the gallery?...],don't care though,cos me poor ancient joints of the thumbs don't take kindly to exerting constant pressure as is needed when working "freehand",so to speak.
So I have found that article most helpfull.
Thanks for allowing the read over your shoulder!
Robin
Just my dumb comments. Maybe not that dumb.
I use card scrapers probably as much as my routers.
One poster... That is because burnishing has a work hardening effect on the steel..
I tend to agree ALOT. And yes I have the Lee Tri-Burnisher. And the 'old screwdriver'.
All of the woods I use are hard as nails. OK, so I also use alot of Poplar.
Card scraping Jatoba, Oak, Ash, Hickory, Purpleheart Etc. generates alot of heat. And as the poster stated.. That is because burnishing has a work hardening effect on the steel.
My first pass with a burnisher is a moderately HARD pressed one. You will know right away if you run into an area that has hardened and the edge should be filed for a 'fresh' surface.
The best way I can explain it is.. Firm pressure with the burnisher.. It will 'slide nicely' and then you will feel like the burnisher is grinding glass... When I need to file a new edge...
Just me though.
Edited 12/28/2008 6:39 am by WillGeorge
Thanks WG,
THAT one I will keep near the top of the file,[pun NOT intended!].Sounds very useful in identifying the tricky bits.
Robin
Robin,
You didn’t ask me, so I hope you don’t mind this reply. Scraper planes are temperamental beasts. I get the best results when I file the edge to a very shallow curve, much like the camber on a smooth plane. The center should be high by about .001-.003” (practice judging this by setting a dial caliper to those dimensions and hold it up to the light looking at the crack between the jaws). While I don’t hone the edge of a card scraper, I find it very beneficial to do so, on the blade to a scraper plane. I use a super fine diamond hone for this.
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The burr is rolled a little different than a card scraper. The edge is drawn using moderate pressure with the burnisher flat on the back. The standard recommendation is to roll the burr at 15-20 degrees, but I always err of the low side of that; roll the burr too aggressively and it becomes prone to chatter. Also, by being somewhat conservative, I can go back and make the burr more aggressive if I under do it, but it is difficult to lessen the burr angle once it has been rolled. Having said that, the frog adjustment will give you considerable latitude with the burr rolling. The burr is rolled on the bevel side using somewhat lighter pressure than that used on the back, but heavier than what is used on the card scraper. I sometimes roll the burr in stages of a few degrees at a time and other times, I just roll it in one stroke; I have not seen any difference in the longevity or sharpness going either way.
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Setting up the plane can be frustrating (at least it is for me). I try different angles on the frog and various amounts of bow from the thumb screw, until I get a decent cut. I tend to use the thumb screw sparingly, since over doing it, makes the plane cut too aggressively. The other area that gives me trouble is with the stroke. The scraper plane works best when used with very light downward pressure; the plane should just float over the surface.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
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Rob,
Thank you for the fine post on your web site. I had been used an old screw driver, but in looking at your carbide one I made my own in few minutes. I had an old 1/4" solid carbide router bit that had hit the floor and was chipped on the cutting edge. Drilled a hole in a dowel and pounded the cutting edge in and presto, I have a nice new burnisher. I had never burnished the scaper on the flat side first, it certainly makes a smoother burr.
I have sharpened all of my scrapers to your specs and they work great, even on some of that Bubinga. I too have noticed that all scapers are not created equal, I have an older Sandvick of 30 years that is still my favorite, holds an edge much longer. The newer Veritas ones are OK, but not great.
I have messed with my Scraper plane for months. That is one of the sore spots of my tools.... I have never been so frustrated. So I will try your cambered edge detail and give that try as well. Judging from your comments it is a pain as well! I have always questioned why the blade is beveled at all, or if the bevel angle is anything special. When using a card scraper, it is held at an angle to present the burr. So why the need for this? Thought I might ask, before grinding it off and experimenting for no real benefit :>)
Thanks again for the posts, your work both inspires me and intimidates me.... Your web site shows consistant and perfect pieces that looks like a Tiffanys Catalog of the best period furniture available. If the economy keeps going the way it is, I may have more free time than I want. Any chance you need a sanding monkey? I am trainable.
Regards from Sunny Arizona, where are Saguaro Cactus have Santa Hats!
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Morgan,
"I have always questioned why the blade is beveled at all, or if the bevel angle is anything special. When using a card scraper, it is held at an angle to present the burr. So why the need for this?"
If the scraper's edge is filed at an angle, say 45 degrees, it allows for a heavier burr to be pushed over. Conventional wisdom says the edge will last longer, as it is backed up by more metal (like a mortising chisel's edge compared to a paring chisel). Some workers in one of the shops I first worked in preferred a 45 bevel on their card scrapers, arguing that two such edges lasted as long as four produced by rolling burrs on a square-filed scraper.
Given that it is such a royal pain to get a cabinet scraper or scraperr plane set up to cut effectively wothout chattering, it would pay to have the longest-lasting edge possible.
Ray
Thanks Ray,
First time I rolled the edge on my scraper plane blade it rolled right around and under itself. A refile, and added a crown to the blade on the wet grinder. I rolled burnished it easy and worked my way up to a nice burr. The plane works much better, but I would rate that tool as tough one. I have one extra thick scaper blade, might be worth a try also.
One thing no one has mentioned is easing the corner just slightly. It still works for inside corners. Seems as you burnish the edge it burnishes a corner knicker as well. If you use the end at all, they can mess your work real quick. (1 guess why I know)
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Rob,
With what I've seen and read of your work,....why would I mind if you replied,I'm delighted ! It must be obvious that I need all the help I can get. :-)
When you say you hone your scraper plane blades,is it the back [ a la bench plane blades] or the bevel,or both ? [And that's after creating the slight camber].That's Q1.
Q2: Creating the burr on the bevel side means the blade is mounted BD,yes?
The only other thing that occurs to me...Your comment re sparing use of the camber screw. The blade in my LV is the thick variety,and I doubt if any application of force would make an impression. As I mentioned elsewhere, we don't seem able to get the thin blades here at present,but will keep trying.
Thanks again for your most welcome intervention
Robin
Rob..
Same here as you have stated. However, I am not sorry I bought my scraper plane.
I have used it on some 'sticks' for my beds and it has saved me from some VERY TIRED and hot fingers.
I find the most frustrating thing is how quickly it goes to very aggressive from hardly doing anything.
"I find the most frustrating thing is how quickly it goes to very aggressive from hardly doing anything."
That is the reason for seeking a harder steel.
The reason for using the usual steel is that is easy to from a burr on it (using any thing from old screw drivers to Grandmammies oldest knitting kneedle -sorry, small joke again).
If you use a hard steel you can then form a smaller burr which is also stronger and more resistant to abrasion.
Or you can use something that is very hard, such as high speed tool steel, and not turn a burr on it. These can be free if you can cut and grind those very big power hack saw blades.
I drone on heedless....Philip Marcou
Here is the leaflet sent with Stanley #80 scraper handle types.You can see that they recommend a 45 degree bevel.Philip Marcou
Thank you Philip,
I appreciate your help.
All the best for the New Year.
Robin
>piece for you to read on sharpening the scraper, that I hope will help. (look at the March 11th entry)RMillard,a serious question; not criticisim. Do you use oil on burnisher?I don't use scrapers much. I have several I bought while searching for one with a decent flat face from the factory that wasn't all rounded from being stamped out.I can sharpen them ok but not with ease. I nearly always forget to use oil. To draw the bur when the scraper is flat on the bench it seams that not using oil would help "grip" the metal and drag it out. But then to turn the bur back from C shape to the T that oil would be a good thing.I assume you used oil for the whole process with the burnisher but I really am not much good at sharpening scrapers so what can you and others tell me about the use of oil.I have a nice burnisher with a handle now which works well but have hardly used it. In the past I used a carbide router bit or a valve. I had zero luck using a screw driver or a chisel back.
roc
Roc,
I do not use oil at any time during the process. Before I started using the diamond hone, I did use oil during the honing process, but not the burnishing. In fact, I used to use a solvent to clean any oil off before using the burnisher, because I didn't want any oil around to contaminate the wood; this way I could re-burnish the edge at least once before going back to the file and stone.
I really think the most critical issue is the very light pressure when flattening out the drawn out edges in the second step. Those projections are very delicate, and easily galled. I can see where oil could be beneficial.
I'm not sure it would make much if any difference, but I'm using a Lie-Nielsen scraper, and before that I used a Sandvick (spelling?)
Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com
'
Edited 12/31/2008 8:04 am ET by RMillard
Rob Millard,Interesting ! Thanks !roc
Roc, spit on the burnisher and it'll bite better and make lighter passes possible.The point in preparing a scraper is to produce a very sharp edge during the filing and honing process and then to GENTLY push the sharp edge over and down to form the hook WITH DOING AS LITTLE DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE to said sharp edge. You want the steel to roll like a breaking wave keeping the leading edge sharp. You're pushing the wave from behind, gently, not touching the leading edge making it 'break' too soon. Fix this imagery in your mind and your burnishing will be more productive. There are two things I'm sure you DON'T need - an extremely hard scraper or an extremely hard burnisher.If using very firm pressure feels right to you then by all means skip the honing process because the sharp edge you created by honing won't survive (or not much of it will) heavy(ish) pressure from the burnisher.
Edited 12/31/2008 10:52 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
TaunTonMacoute,>spit on the burnisher and it'll bite better and make lighter passes possibleHey thank you as well.According to your profile info "take nothing as fact unless . . .say it is a fact" I am not sure about this saliva technique. : )I will however try it. On the face of it it makes sense.Have you done a study to determine whether Red man or Juicy Fruit is the be optimum sharpening fluid additive? : )>pushing the wave from behind, gently, not touching the leading edge making it 'break' too soon. Fix this imagery in your mind and your burnishing will be more productive.That helps.> DON'T need - an extremely hard scraperthat makes sense>DON'T need an extremely hard burnisher.that will take some time for me to get screwed into my mind. I was liking the carbide etc.Thanks for the help.roc
The carbide will be fine, but if you already have a burnisher there is no need to revisit a purchase already made.
Get away , man, next thing he will be surfing, with that type of lyrical prose emanating from you. You sound as though these rites of burnishing scrapers are some sort of passage to eternal woodworking heaven: they are not , they are just a pain in the rear, and take up time needlessly.
If a harder scraper steel is used there is a choice of not turning a burr at all , or at least filing, stoning or burnishing less often .
(;) (;)Philip Marcou
I don't know about woodworking heaven and all that I do know that the orginal poster was having trouble getting a scraper to work at all. So you see for him it was much more than a nuisance task requiring your standard advice - use a harder steel. And as often as you drone on and on about hard steels one would think the shoe would fit better on your foot than mine.
Here's a sentence from the original post:
I file, hone ,burnish refile rehone , reburnish. Lots of preasure - a little preasure nothing seems to work.
Edited 1/1/2009 7:47 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
jcrum,
I find that a more durable edge comes after rolling it two or three times. That is, the first time I burnish after filing, the edge is not so durable. Pushing the edge back when it dulls, (burnisher drawn flat along the face of the scraper which is laid on the benchtop), then reburnishing (without filing) gives a more substantial edge that holds up longer. You should be able to re-burnish a scraper four or five times before having to file again. Eventually, the edge will not roll a new burr, and then you fil a new edge.
Ray
Ray
Ray,"I find that a more durable edge comes after rolling it two or three times."
That is because burnishing has a work hardening effect on the steel, and is a benefit of burnishing or ticketing in addition to producing that hook.You probably know that .
If you used scrapers made of steels other than those from saw blades etc, as they do in other parts of the world, you would spend less time poncing about stroking pieces of soft steel because the hook would last far longer.The only other change to the ritual would be that that the burnisher would need to be harder than the scraper steel so the old screw driver, grandpappies old chisel or ####pet six inch nail wouldn't work too good, but suitable substitutes are readily available-some are even free.
No doubt the posse is now hastily mounting up-and this is what I find difficult to understand-but nonetheless I am an old hand at bush skirmishing .
Happy Christmas.Philip Marcou
Indeed some are free Phillip! When I send over the piece of resin impregnated wood, I'm including several other burnisher steels I've "monkeyed" with. The problem with carbide is the low ductility: it falls to the floor and it breaks!
Ray, send me your mailing address and I'll send you a very hard piece of "material" for burnishing.
Merry Christmas to all and to all a Good Night (damn insomnia, it's 2:18 AM and I still can't sleep and when I do, I'll awake at 5:00).
T.Z.
Hi Philip
That is just so funnyy!!!
My best wishes for Christmas and the New Year
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hello philip,
I'm glad we're still on speaking terms.
With my electron scanning microscope in the shop for repairs (getting its bifocals' earpiece re-taped) I am unable to refute your theory about work hardening the steel in that burr-edge, if I wanted to. Makes sense to me. I also think (again, no empirical proof) that with every roll of the edge (I use much more pressure than shaking an old lady's hand-- I use the amount of pressure you'd use to push the corner over on a piece of steel ;-) ), more metal gets mooshed over behind that burr, re-inforcing the edge. Indeed, one of my mentors recommended filing the edge at 45 degrees, so as to be able to push a more agressive hook that is longer lasting.
Who is selling these new generation harder scrapers, and how does one tell them from the old-fangled softer ones? You got this old codger pegged, I have one that was even stamped "Henry Disston and Sons", before the markings wore off. Others are marked "Eberle Svedenstahl", that I got from Woodcraft aeons ago.
I plan to begin the BU smoother right after Christmas. Wish me luck.
Watch out for that posse, amigo. They always aim to head you off at the pass. And if one of 'em has a rope, keep ridin'
Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year,
Ray
"I plan to begin the BU smoother right after Christmas. Wish me luck"
I wish you luck.
Beware of huge hammers.
Will the creation have Bombe Sides?
P.S. One tells the difference between scrapers by petting them.
I don't know which vendors in America stock which type, but I have some Sandvick ones which are soft as normal, and some others called Peugeot which are noticeably harder-maybe they are recycled Peugeot 404 hubcaps.
I also made a few from large power hack saw blades-these are thick, non flexible and glass hard so no hook is formed. The cutting edge results from the burr that comes from a grinder-so it is one even stroke across grinder once in a blue moon. I sent one to The English Gentleman .Philip Marcou
Edited 12/24/2008 11:30 pm by philip
And the English gentleman (actually a scallwag) uses this Marcou scraper just because he can! As you say, no burnishing or hook-making required yet the beast takes superfine shavings at all 8 edge-corners. Also, it is thick and doesn't heat up the fingers. Generally I push or pull it at an angle of around 15 degrees from the vertical.
Every blue moon I re-square an edge with diamong stones, to ensure those corners don't get rounded. Yet the thing seems to scrape fine shavings forever before they begin to go a bit dusty, which is presumably when the corner of an edge is begining to lose its purfek 90 degree "sharp".
Of course, it doesn't flex yet this seems no disadvantage, at least when it comes to removing those last faint plane tracks after smoothing. In fact, this is about the only job I seem to have for a scraper.
Lataxe
This will clear up how to actually use one (subscription needed):
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=5299
If there is any doubt that a scraper will leave an absolute mirrored surface then watch this video all the way through to the end.
Edited 12/30/2008 6:51 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Great video - thanks for the link.
Mike D
Boys boys. Stop this bickering !
Just get one of these.
http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=93
I have yet to find anything this won't cut cleanly with a steep bevel. Has anyone out there found something this won't cut with sharpening angle of 45 to 54 ?
LOVE IT ! LOVE IT ! LOVE IT !
roc who has a pile of scrapers to fart around with but doesn't have much use for them except for scraping paint off.
PS: I am off to watch the "absolute mirrored surface" video with much skepticism.
And we are back.
I must say I am impressed ! With the sheen.
Some other things that impressed me more:
There was nothing difficult about the grain he was working. Did not look like to be very hard wood either.
How long it took to do that little tiny dab of a surface. A hand plane could have done the same thing in six or eight strokes in a few seconds.
What we have seen here is he burnished the wood. One can do some similar burnishing/shine making by taking a big wad of shavings and scrubbing the surface with them especially on the very hard woods such as cocobolo.
If a person polished the scraper edge to a rounded over edge that would not cut at all but just rubbed the surface with a smooth roundy thing it would have done the same burnishing ! There was no tear out or "plane tracks " ( tracks from an improperly sharpened plane blade ) that he was removing.
And finally we are learning scraping from a chair maker ! Are there any flat surfaces on a chair ?
That one question did provide some education for me ( just when you thought I was impermeable to education ) scraping could be a good thing on a few curved surfaces of the chairs.
Interesting.
But then that thought came ricocheting back; those surfaces will not blend with the finish of the rest of the chair so why shinny scrape them. And so it goes . . .
I want to see this done on some flat surface I can not use a plane on. A plane blade is easier to sharpen, stays sharp longer, does not jam up your thumbs, the work stays flat easier, ( I want to see him do a dining table from bubinga like I am working on right now with a card scraper)
The man will be asking his doctor why he can no longer hold anything with his opposable thumbs.
: )
Edited 1/1/2009 2:29 pm by roc
Edited 1/1/2009 2:35 pm by roc
Edited 1/1/2009 2:43 pm by roc
Yea, the guy in the video is a real hack.
Check out the junk he makes:
http://www.brianboggschairs.com/
Edited 1/1/2009 4:05 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Rocky,
I am surprised you are not appreciative of how useful an ordinary scraper can be-and not just on flat surfaces. What's a good way to remove those bandsaw , rasp, file ,sandpaper marks from say a shape like a chair leg or Queen Anne shape? For concave surfaces then you would have to shape a scraper to suit-minor problem.
Re your table tops: a simple tool like a #79 or #80 will take care of your thumb problem-and we have covered the question of edge durability already.Philip Marcou
This is absolutely true, and I love my BUS as well. It changed using a plane from a truly unsatisfying experience to a very satisfying one. When I keep the blade sharp, I don need no stinkn sandpaper. Well, ...hardly ever.
Mike D
>absolutely true, and I love my BUS as wellMike D?
Narrowing in on a flat surface such as a table top for a moment do you find the scraper to be useful even superior to the BUS or what are you saying?roc picking the nit's nits
>?Narrowing in on a flat surface such as a table top for a moment do you find the scraper to be useful even superior to the BUS or what are you saying?<I say categorically that "it depends".I ALWAYs love my BUS because it was the first plane that I personally owned that actually worked as advertised right out of the box, and...(see other thread re MKII) if I keep the blade Sharp (capital S), continues to do so.As to card scrapers, I own a few, attempt to maintain them all, and have a like/hate relationship with them as they seem to me to be all fickle beasts - occasionally making lovely shavings and a shiny surface, but just as often making powder like a post beetle and leaving a surface like wheat stubble behind. Since I have given up self blame for the new year, it's not my fault.Carry on :)
For the doubting blokes.......
The pics are shavings made with one of Philip's hard scraper blades, made from an old metal-cutting bandsaw blade he tells me. The scraper is just under 4" X 3" and 1/8" thick. The edge is rubbed square to the face on diamond "stones" until the corners are reet sharp right angles. This takes no great time.
When sharp, the corners will take tight-curled shavings as seen. The face is set at 15 degrees or more towards the user and the card is then pulled. It can be done in reverse (pushed).
There is no burr and no ticketing required. It is just a sharp 90 degree corner that takes those shavings. Of course, the blade cannot be flexed, at 1/8" thick (except by bodybuilders).
A corner lasts for ages but eventually must round-over as dust results instead of shaving. A couple of minutes on the diamonds to get new corners and off we go agin!
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
These shavings are from a bandsawn face of Anglish oak.
Lataxe
Edited 1/2/2009 6:24 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
Oh, aye, a' well eno' for tha, and tha geet thick scraper, and tha geet masses o' shavin's, an by th way, tha geet big pixtures that takes a geet big time ta doonlood for those o'us who hasn't a geet quick 'putin' machine.
What's to come o'us that's put in our time, a-lernin that ticketing you so cavalierly dismiss? What of the years of trying different angles, pressures, shapes of burnishers, oil, spit and blood (you should see the scar on the inside of me wrist), getting the knack of turning a proper burr? Would ya have us'n jes' throw it all oot th' winder? Come, man, have a bit of mercy in your heart!
Ray
Ray,
Thick, hard steel! You know it makes sense!!
Throw them scraps of ticky-tacky in the bin and get A Real Man's Scraper. (Only NZ$199.99, postage included. Accept no substitutes).
Lataxe
PS Apologies for the big pics, which I will keep an eye on in future (forgot to reduce the quality to "for web").
Ray,
for those o'us who hasn't a geet quick 'putin' machine.
Man, I thought I was cheap. Ye gots ta git rid o'that teletype makine with a TV fer a picture and buck up fer a real 'puter.
Not to worry Lataxe, he's a deposed Yank down there b'yond that Mason Jar line they got there.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Lataxe is going to be "crying mercy" when he realizes that three dollar chunk of thick steel does as fine a job as that mucho dollar Marcou plane. And it does it without being heavy !
How can this be?Of coarse you know he sold the second family car to purchase that last plane. I hear he told his wife the car is in the shop being repaired. Addiction is an insidious, destructive thing.As for me my head is spinning. Every thing I know to be true and right and good is coming undone.I need a time out.
roc
Roc, you cry:
"As for me my head is spinning. Every thing I know to be true and right and good is coming undone".
This is an excellent mind-state for a lad as it presages new adventures of every kind. Also, you will be less surprised by them Black Swans, of the economic or any other variety. Their beaks is hard, as you would know if you ever tried to eat your sandwich undisturbed by an antipodean pond on which the buggers float and roost. (I will show you my knee-scar one day).
As to a Marcou card scraper replacing a BU plane - this is a good strategy for those with Popeye forearms and thousands of hours to spare taking off mini-curls of waffer-thin shavings. It is a strategy for a Kryton on a millenia-long Red Dwarf excursion. Me and thee need the plane, as time presses and even now I believe I see a dark figure on the horizon, waving a sickle about and grinning horribly.
Lataxe, who knows both more and less at any particular moment.
Lataxe,I don't know about black swans but the neighbor once decided he was to replace his lawn mower with about a gaggle of white geese.They were of the "Go for your crotch" phylum geese. I do remember that clearly. They would follow him around without a leash but pity da foo that got near them when out on a lark !Many hilarious views were mine. As long as I stayed on the other side of a fence. One night he was attempting to shut them up by chasing them around the yard with a broom. The "lawn" had long since been reduced to a mud and geese poo slick. He was chasing them in leather soled street shoes. Any questions ?Ha Ha Ha ahhhh Ha Ha Ha
it was all pretty fun if you didn't care to get much sleeproc
Edited 1/3/2009 10:34 am by roc
Philip and Lataxe,You have created a MONSTER !Stone him ! Burn him ! Before it is too late !It will destroy us allllll Or to use a line from Monte Python : RUN AWAY ! RUN AWAYYYY !roc
:)
You like Monty Python, hey? You do that is a sign of either extreme depravity or extreme genius-no in between?
How about Blackadder?Philip Marcou
>BlackadderNot so big on 'adder though have not seen it for a long time and there has been much mental degredation since then so could be just the thing.Red Dwarf any one? Listy, Listy, Listy . . . Smgn'ell.Kryton what are you doing?
I thiiiiinnnnnk . . . yes I belieeeeve. . . I'm rebelling Mr Rimmer sir.
Rebelling ? ! ?
Yes I e e e e e think that is what I'm doing.
Spin on it punk ! ! !Lister I need your bike.You got it Kryton !The Red Dwarf shows got Lisa and I through some very boring rough times while living in a very boaring dull town.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7FXlRxq1iQPhilip if you are still having trouble with my links see YouTube
Kryten paints Rimmer - Red Dwarf - BBC comedy
Edited 1/3/2009 3:13 am by roc
Here I am reading over your shoulders again!
Greatly enjoyed the Red Dwarf series,wish it was on again: but also Blackadder...of all the many characters,Broderick nearly steals the show!
There! That gives you a lead into the state of my wetwear! [ I go back to the Goons,so that's likely to be me problem!]
Robin
>Red Dwarf seriesWell lets just get totally off the subject of scrapers what the heck.If you have NetFlix you can get Red Dwarf series from them and even on instant play right over your computer. You don't have to wait for the discs to come in the mail !I have had fine luck with NetFlix; knock on woodrocthat reminds me to look up Black Adder maybe they have that.
Hey,thanks Roc,
Will try to get Netflix.Would like to see 'em agin. It's not really off the subject,judt a quick detour !
R.
Blackadder! I loved that program. Very strange, very different and fit me perfectly.
I don't doubt your shavings but IME there is little room for doubt that the burnisher has an important role influencing the success of scraping activities. Let's take turning scrapers for an example (because they do represent some of the extremes as scrapers)... mine are pretty heavy metals (about 3/8ths inch thick high speed steel bar... BTW these make your little 1/8 inch blades look a little weeny don'tcha think (;-)). I have tried them with a ground edge (still just a wee burr from the grinder) and after burnishing a hook. I MUCH prefer the burnished hooked version as the cut is BOTH smoother and quicker. The reason is that the edge can be presented to the wood surface at a sharper angle with little danger of a catch. The tool is actually tilted down a bit more (than when using an unhooked edge) but the hook gives a sharper and more aggressive edge and angle of attack at the microscopic level. The curl of the burr acts to limit the depth of cut creating very reliable control of the tendency to catch or grab.
Reference my (I KNOW PITIFUL!) drawings below: In the first I have shown the different angle of presentation of the two types of edges. In the second I have tried to illustrate why the burr shape has this effect... it would be (and in practice IS) difficult to FORCE the edge to bite deeper than the depth of the burrs curl. Thus the burr... all by itself, creates a sort of plane body effect at the miniature level... keeping our cut thin and relatively even. This happens with card scrapers as well as turning scrapers. I have even applied this burr effect to great googly heavy floor scrapers whilst removing ancient and near petrified composite tiles (it works much slicker with wood though).
BF,
No denying the effects of that burr, as your fine drawing illustrates. I believe Lee Valley make a carbide rod-based burnisher configured to allow a burr such as you describe to be put on a turning scraper, even one o' them rock 'ard HSS ones like wot I have. I don't do that much turning (and rarely seem to use a scraper) so I haven't bothered with a burr-maker meself. One day.... :-)
As to the Marcou card scraper - it would perhaps perform a little better were a burr to be got on it's corners. However, there are two points one might make in favour of just using the unburred corners:
1) That turning scraper burr-maker from LV uses a very hard carbide bit and also is configured so the scraper itself acts as a big lever to get enough pressure to form a burr on the scraper tip. The LV blurb says that otherwise the hardness of an HSS scraper will make the forming of a burr very difficult. I fear it would take an inordinate amount of pressure with an ordinary burnisher to get a burr on to that Marcou card scraper - and even if one did, it might easily break off. The metal is very hard and possibly brittle stuff.
2) The Marcou card scraper with just the sharp (unburred) corners still takes good scrapings and will deal easily with nasty-wood, in good scraper fashion. So, whist a burr could improve it (if one could get a burr on it at all) why bother with the difficult burr-making business?
That scraper has 4 long edges and four short that will all scrape quite well. Months go by between any resharpening of a corner. (BU planes with high cutting angles obviate the need for much scraping). The ony disadvantage is that one cannot bend a thick scraper to scrape down into dips - so I start with a flat surface.
Lataxe, who likes the KISS principle.
Sorry old boy in this case I just have to say that your point #1 is pretty much ALL WRONG! I use an ordinary burnisher (though a pretty hard one... Two Cherries being my favorite). I have NO difficulty turning the burr with just SLIGHTLY more pressure than I would use on a card scraper (still only a pound or two of pressure though). I'd have to disagree with the LV blurb totally and assume it to be written by one of the people in their sales department rather than their shop men. BTW my scrapers are mostly (I do have some custom made ones ) Henry Taylor brand which I have learned to expect good steel from.
I do agree with you about the Marcou card scraper though (being very hard and stiff). I have used some power hacksaw blades for carving knives and I think they are some sort of air hardening steel. Apparently these steels have a very high carbon content and I have found them difficult to forge and very easily overhardened.
UUUMMMmmm HMMMmmmmm well I almost hate to bring this up especially to a multiple Marcou owner like yourself (they are known for tendencies toward fanaticism... speaking in general terms only of course)... BUT it is possible to turn a burr on plane edges too... and skillfully done this can alter their practical attack angles, help atone for overwide plane mouths or lack of a chip breaker, etcetera. This technique might be especially useful in special circumstances, for example when using one of those handy little bullnose planes with the front removed so that it works as a chisel plane (I have not tried this though so at this point this is just theoretical). Of course, as we all realize, MULTIPLE Marcou owners such as yourself will not experience these shortcomings in their planes and can choose from several appropriate models so this info will seem quite irrelevant to such as they. Just teasing ye all in good fun I hope! (;-)
Edited 1/3/2009 10:19 pm ET by bigfootnampa
BF,
Well, you have persuaded me to try a burr on the turning scraper. I have a project which requires four turned table legs coming up in a while so this can be the prompt to burr that scraper, as well as a test of the difference it makes. I will re-read that LV blurb and maybe try to do a burr as you describe, freehand, to test their claims concerning the difficulties of scraper-burring. :-)
As to burring plane blades - you are a mad bloke and should be locked up and given a purge! Matron!!
Lataxe, definitely not phanatical (except concerning ice cream, chocolate and whusky, which must reach certain high standards).
For the avoidance of any doubt and the benefit of any cynics (should they even be suspected to exist on this here forum):
1) The GEET Scraper is made from Big Power Hacksaw blade which no doubt is some sort of HSS Unobtainium Molybedenum, not bandsaw blading.
2)I do not sell them-too valuable- I bequeath them to upstanding woodworms.Philip Marcou
>categorically that "it depends".>given up self blame for the new year, it's not my fault.I must say you guys are so much more interesting to converse with than the computer chat dudes. They DO NOT HAVE FUN ! ! ! A dry bunch over there.muddling onward
roc
Hi Roc
What was great about the video of Brian Boggs (thanks for the link Charles), a woodworker of immense skill, was the way he used his blade.
Several years ago I was enlightened by a video by Tage Frid when he scraped by pulling the blade towards himself. This would prevent the blade planing a shallow groove in the wood. This is how I have worked since then = pushing the scraper as if it were a jack plane, and pulling the scraper as if it were a smoother. I would mention this on forums when asked, but no one seemed to pay attention. Everyone just seemed to want to hook their thumbs behind the blade and push - as if obtaining large shavings was the goal.
It was reassuring to see Brian Boggs use the blade as he did. I wonder if he, too, was influence by Tage Frid (probably not ..)?
Regards from Perth
Derek
I would not attempt to discredit Brian Boggs abilities. I realize he is a pro from way back. However it occurs to me to ask; if the camera was off and he needed to clean up the surface of that particular piece of wood that he was working when he took it from his thickness planer, on the clock as it were, would he use the scraper and pass after pass after pass for the four minutes he used or would he just plane it and be done? Perhaps he enjoys using a scraper as much as I enjoy sharpening my plane blade. The link to look at his tables is appreciated. Thank you. I usually don't get to see anything but his fine chairs so that is a treat.I suppose I got all fixated on the scraper for flat surfaces and did not include in this discussion the value of the scraper for all the other surfaces . I wish he would have gone there with his demonstration.In the same breath I have yet to see Sam Maloof using a scraper on HIS chairs which are known for their tactile appeal. Aaawe the possibilities for argument are practically unlimited. The scraper is a love hate thing for me. I love the simplicity of it. No moving parts, can make it from other discarded objects etc.Hate it cause it is rather unpredictable in quality and performance, every time I pick one up I have to fart around determining which edge I was using last that is still cutting even when I attempt to lay it down so I can remember which that is, I find the filing and honing to be "unfun" , for lack of a better word, where as sharpening blades is a pleasure and a rewarding activity in its self. Hey people run when they don't have any place to go so I can sharpen just cause I like it.As far as purchasing yet another tool e.g., like a #79 or #80. That is a mixed bag. I like to buy tools but as I said I can not imagine a case where I would need it. I have to at least be able to delude myself for a while that I actually "neeeed" the thing before I begin the hunt.Interesting that most every one agrees that thick plane blades are the cat's meow but then get all excited about the thin bendy scraper blades in the #79 or #80. : )Are we a fickle bunch ? ? ?
"Interesting that most every one agrees that thick plane blades are the cat's meow but then get all excited about the thin bendy scraper blades in the #79 or #80. :"
I recalled the wrong numbers from the cerebral melting pot-I should have said #80 and #81.
#81 is the one that has no facility for curbing the blade-and on this one you can fit a huge thick blade if you want.
You can pick either one up for next to nowt on internet or flea markets because folk are now so fickle that they must use either a huge shiny drum sander or something which is stamped "Superior Unobtainium Steel -Specially forged in Outer Mongolia ". (;)Philip Marcou
P.S. I am prepared to bet that Sam Maloof does use freehand scrapers- those shapes and joints are perfect candidates.
Edited 1/1/2009 11:30 pm by philip
>bet that Sam Maloof does use freehand scrapers- those shapes and joints are perfect candidates. Philip,Glad I didn't take that bet. (: |roc
: )
That's funny, I never pushed one, I thought pulling one was how you were to do it. But then I learned how from Frid myself.
Several years ago I was enlightened by a video by Tage Frid when he scraped by pulling the blade towards himself. This would prevent the blade planing a shallow groove in the wood. This is how I have worked since then = pushing the scraper as if it were a jack plane, and pulling the scraper as if it were a smoother. I would mention this on forums when asked, but no one seemed to pay attention. Everyone just seemed to want to hook their thumbs behind the blade and push - as if obtaining large shavings was the goal... Derek
****
With all due respect Derek.. I would have to disagree with "everyone". I occasionally push a scraper but mainly pull one as the heavy stuff is complete when I get to it which is almost every project. But... it would be hard for me to imagine that anyone that has ever used a scraper did not have the curiosity to both pull and push just to see what happens in both directions.
That's exactly what I did 36 years ago when I was first introduced to one and that's exactly what I did last night in my shop building a small, decorative box. Again.. just hard to imagine that there are those that are not curious..
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge..
Ok to chime in here?
I use scrapers all the time. I have posted before that I usually do not put a hook on my scrapers unless I have some really interesting grain. I have a set of scrapers ground to 90 and a set ground to 45 degrees. Also a few I use with a hook if needed. No expert on scrapers, just the way I use them. I found over time that the hook was extra time needed to make and no real benefit (As far as I was concerned). That does not mean I feel without the is 'better'. Just that I really never felt I gained that much. Sometimes a hook is the only way to go! About the only wood I will start with a hook is birdseye maple.
I wonder about your suggesting to pull the scraper? I do both but I have no real reason for why I do it. Probably just me. As for bending the scraper I only do that when working a small area. I know why I only bend with my thumbs when only needed. Doing so is HARD on my hands.
I saw Lataxe's pictures on a previous entry in here. I can get curls with my 90 degree edge scrapers but they are about half the length (my estimate from the picture). I use standard thickness scrapers. Whatever that is. Never measured them.
Long ago I tried to make a thicker scraper out of some old tool steel I had and I was less than successful doing so.
I have found that if I use the blade from my scraper plane it makes a nice hand scraper.. Not that much better that my old ones though. Maybe I just like the feel of my old scrapers better?
As I ramble on, as I tend to do often, I would like to know your thoughts on the advantages of pulling the scraper rather than push it. Pulling is not bad.. I just love my Japanese saws! Like I said, I push and pull mine but never noticed any difference. But then again, I was not looking for any!
Pretty simple on why for me, Will. I have the feel of more control and not that much effort seems to be required which again just feels more natural. I use Sandvik scrapers and have for years. When I heard they were going to go out of business (sell out to Bahco) years ago now, I purchased 15 of them from Highland Hardware here in Atlanta.
I also use the back side of a bench plane iron to scrape. As a matter if fact I used both a Sandvik on maple and the back of the bench iron on purple-heart about 4 hours ago. I haven't tried other scrapers other than Sandvik and one Bahco. I did not care for the Bahco so I think even though they purchased Sanvik.. they changed metal or whatever?
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 1/3/2009 9:39 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 1/3/2009 9:39 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I also use the back side of a bench plane iron to scrape.
Hi Sarge
I often use the back of a sharp chisel when scraping small areas. That works wonderfully as well.
Roc
The issue of pushing verses pulling a blade is quite simply that it is difficult to curve a blade when pulling it (unless your thumbs are on the wrong side of your hands - hey, anything is possible on this forum!). This leaves a flatter surface.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
it is difficult to curve a blade when pulling it
This will make it easyView Image
But, mebbe a burr on each side o' the blade.
Which brings a question to me about this burr business. With regard to the surface left by the scraper, what difference is there with burr vs no burr? I've tried both ways and don't really see/feel any difference?
I yamm puttin on a few years so perhaps the see/feel sense is a bit dodgey..........
Also, and this is a bit confuzin t'me; whilst viewing those curly shavings of Lataxes with the sans burr scraper, I'm thinking about an article by Leonard Lee where he describes the shearing/splitting of the wood when planing. Wot?
Does the burr enhance/facilitate the action described by Mr. lee?
Muddling and chewin,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
it is difficult to curve a blade when pulling it
Hi Bob
That is the whole point!
You do not want to curve the scraper blade when finishing a surface. Curving the blade will create a fine scollop in the surface when you want it to be flat. Pulling a blade means that you cannot bend the blade to cause this to occur.
Push like a jack, pull like a smoother.
Regards from Perth
Derek
"Pulling a blade means that you cannot bend the blade to cause this to occur."
Not true really Derek. It requires a slightly different technique to bend a scraper on the pull stroke than that used on the push stroke. On the pull stroke stick your index fingers near the middle on far side of the scraper and your thumbs near the left and right edges facing you and bend it. I've been doing it for about three decades now. Lovely scallops to prove it too if need be, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Hi Richard
You are correct of course. But you know what I mean (even if I am being a little technically loose).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, it is easier to avoid bending the scraper with a pull stroke, and keeping the scraper pretty straight in use has benefits from time to time.
I spotted an opportunity for a bit of minor tail tweaking and couldn't resist, that was all. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Morning Derek,
OK, I understand the scalloping part of things, and this might be desirable under certain circunstances.
What is confusing me is thinking about the geometries discussed by Mr. Lee in his article and seeing those curls of Sire Lataxes, cut with no burr.
When I pull my scraper it is usually tilted towards me slightly, maybe even skewed as Sarge suggests. The same tilting of the blade for pushing too. I can see where even with the slight tilt of the blade, a burr would allow it to conform more closely to the geometries as discussed by Mr. Lee, but Lataxes scraper has no burr.
It would seem to me that without any burr the angle of the cutting edge would be directly opposed to what Mr. Lee suggests. Maybe I'm confused about plane angles vs scraper angles/burrs?
Please understand that I'm not trying to be picky-une about it, just a bit confused.......
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
That thick scraper of mine works on either a push or a pull. In both cases the blade has to be tipped forwards in the direction of its travel by at least 15 degrees from the vertical. If it is any more vertical it just kids over the surface.
If the blade is tipped more than 15 degrees towards the direction of travel, it still cuts albeit one must increase the downward pressure as the angle drops. There seems to be an "envelope" of around 10 -15 degrees after the intial "15 degrees from vertical" when the sharp corner continues to cut - i.e. it will cut at up to 25 -30 degrees from the vertical. Eventually, if the blade is moved more and more towards the horizontal, it will again just skid over the surface.
The finish that the unburred corner leaves is smooth and clean (and gets rid of any tear out on the nasty grain) but not glassy, like the surface shown in that Brian Boggs video referenced by Charles. I only use the scraper on the most difficult of areas (high angle plane takes care of 99% of difficult surfaces). In such cases, there is sometimes still a "fuzzy surface" even after scraping.
Perhaps a burr-scraper is making more of a clean cut so that the glassy surface is the result, rather like the surface from a finely-set smoothing plane? (I'm guessing). However, even my (burred-blade) scraper plane seems to leave a fuzz in some kinds of nasty-wood (roe/reversing-spiral grain in soft timbers, typically) despite it taking nice thin shavings.
So, my final action with all surfaces is often a hand-sand, as there always seems to be a fuzz-patch, faint plane track or some other tool mark that is just a bit too much to leave. This being so, I'm not really looking for a glassy surface from that scraper. I imagine that those who are might prefer to go with the burr.
Lataxe, who anyway will plane rather than scrape in most cases.
With regard to the surface left by the scraper, what difference is there with burr vs no burr? I've tried both ways and don't really see/feel any difference?
As I have stated before I usually do not use a burr. I can say that I have 'looked' closely at the difference. Very bright light and a Peak Shop Micro
Link attached that shows mine. Just for fun.. 100X magnification. I have all of the extra eye 'thingies' I used it often when servicing printing machines.
http://www.2spi.com/catalog/ltmic/peak1.shtml
Yes, the hooked scraper cut 'looked' a bit nicer. Or maybe more than a 'bit'.
Drop of stain on a test 'stick' and watched the outcome in process. I found that non-hooked edge took the stain more evenly. Maybe because of the 'fuzz'?. With the hooked edge the harder parts (lacking the 'fuzz') took less stain (I think) and looked different. I did expect to see a difference. In my opinion, the Non-Hook took stain better as to even distribution. Just my observation at the time.
I am not sure but I think I was using some very nice chunks of Jatoba and Purpleheart at the time. I do have to admit I NEVER stain those woods. I have used a yellow die on occasion to change the look a bit.
All this I have posted means nothing because I do not use spray equipment on my furniture. Maybe for the fence on the property.
My final finish is much less that museum quality. I never try for it to be! NOT that it is the wrong thing to do. I just cannot do it properly. As so in my carving skills.. It stiil has to look nice to me. OK, Maybe my standards are lacking.. But I still like the wood to look natural. Maybe one of you nice folks can explain the real difference between a 'hook' and 'no hook'
I for one have had what I thought a reasonable looking finish when the scrapers offered no curls and just the so called BAD dust.
No fight here..!!! Just trying to pick the expert brains....
Maybe we can get this to 5000?
I use chisel back on narrower work also, Derek. Right down to 1/8". I once considered a chisel plane but.. discovered a narrow plane iron laid flat will do basically the same thing through curiosity so dumped the idea as it is used sparingly in that manner by me.
Difficult to curve the scraper while pulling it... not when it is in a LV card scraper holder. You just turn the little dial and get about any curve you want and the curvature will remain constant until you turn the dial again. And you don't feel any heat build-up from the blade either. But.. I have a feeling you know that. :>)
So.. pull the train or push the train? I do both depending on what I am facing but pulling gives me the feel or more control so.... pulling is my main course of action. And I won't hesitate to skew a hand scraper and pulling also gives me a better feel there. I get to push a hand plane so it is only deserving that I give equal time to pulling. ha.. ha...
Regards from the southern U.S.A.
Sarge..
Edited 1/4/2009 11:12 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
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