I guess that is the question. Even if I keep purchasing expensive milled wood from the giant chain store can I really live without using a jointer. Personally, I don’t think so but my bank funds are disagreeing with me. Where is the break-even for the $600? How much wood do you have to pay premium prices for before you should have just bought the jointer?
This and the meaning of life are keeping me up nights.
David
Replies
The jointer does two things well: It flattens one surface of your stock, and it joints a straight edge perpendicular to that surface. The former you can do with a thickness planer and a carriage to hold uneven boards. The latter you can do with a good handplane, and maybe some simple jigs (e.g., a shooting board) to help you keep the plane perpendicular to the surface.
Neither is as convenient as the jointer for "bulk processing" of a lot of wood, but both give good results.
-Steve
I have the planer and I have uneven laminated boards and I have a flat board. How do you securely fasten the flat board to a pile of laminated wood so that the planer will make a square/flat top?I will have to ponder this, not having a jointer and the meaning of life tonight.Thanks for the answer. The planer jig didn't occur to me and is a good solution.David
I sitll haven't been able to figure out which content requires a subscription and which does not, so I apologize if you can't see either/both of the following links:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopArticle.aspx?id=5245http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24118
-Steve
You can also edge joint with a router there several ways to do this.
Zabo
Edge jointing with a router is a good alternative!Thanks. David
David ,
The value of a Jointer Really depends on the type of work to be done .
Do you have a table saw or skill saw or band saw ?
Is the meaning of life keeping you up the same as : You found the meaning and now you can't sleep ?
" Yitzhe Coure Uczhe " (sp) Apologies to anyone of Russian decent .
The translation I learned : The Chicken learns from the Egg .
dusty
I'm in the minority around here, but I think you can certainly make do without a jointer. For my money, the retirement funds are much better spent on a nice thickness planer.
I have a jointer -- it hides under a blanket in the corner of my shop, usually in the way, or acting as a temporary horizontal storage area. I use it, maybe, once a year. In the last year, I've processed approximately 1,000 bf of red oak, white oak, cherry, maple, poplar and a bit of pine. I used the planer once to machine a seriously deep, wide rabbet on the back of some molding.
I pick out my rough stock, so it's generally pretty flat and twist-free. Certainly no better (and probably a bit worse) than the S4S stuff you get in a decent lumber yard. I find the planer does fine without a preliminary trip through the jointer. For edges, I can do better with the table saw with a Forrest WWII blade on my cheapo TS and, occasionally a hand plane.
YMMV, but likely not. I think many folks rely on the jointer for the first pass just because that's the way it's "supposed" to be done, not because they have to.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
David,
It really depends on the kind of work you do.
For me, making custom pieces of relatively small furniture, in a small space, I find little use for a jointer (I don’t own one). I have this opinion, because even an 8” jointer has a pretty limited capacity yet it has a large footprint.
I flatten stock with a scrub or power plane, before sending it through the surface planer (a tool I consider indispensable)
I use mostly rough sawn stock, but on those occasions I buy S2S stock, I find it anything but flat.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I use mostly rough sawn stock, but on those occasions I buy S2S stock, I find it anything but flat.
Rob, I found this to be comically true, as well. On the rare occasion when I need to purchase stock, I sometimes find myself at the same place I get all of my cab. grade plywood at, a place called Owl Hardwoods, in Chicagoland. They are one of, if not the largest retail supplier of hardwoods from Anigre to Zebrawood around these parts. The funny thing is, everything is sold s2s. They won't sell rough. I asked the manager of the place one time if they flatten one side first on the jointer, and he looked at me as if I was speaking ancient Egyptian. There isn't a single flat board in the entire joint, and I'm talking 100's of thousands of board feet.
I can only imagine all the trouble hobbyists have trying to make something from this stock, as is, and get the joinery right. No wonder there is so much hardly used woodworking equipment for sale on ebay.
Jeff
David I salvage trees from the city. The jointer is great for working this material and saves a lot of time. I use the thickness planer after I get a flat side. If I was working with s4s from home repo, I would use a hand plane. You might also check out a sanding drum at http://www.stockroomsupply.com/ which can edge boards for glue up, or finish sand a project. Small footprint, good price.
AZMO
-----------_o
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Hi David,
Even the expensive S4S material you are buying needs to be jointed. It may or may not have had a true edge at some point. It's not likely to have one when you get it home. I mean, it's reasonably straight, but your glue-ups and joints will never be as good as they could be unless you properly mill your stock.
It's not so much that using the jointer saves money - though it certainly can over the long long run. It's more that using the jointer will give you better results and make your work better.
As for the meaning of life... well, when you have milled the stock for your current project, and it's there all nice and neat on your bench... ya can start to catch the slightest glimpse of it.
And as for the Meaning of Life, you'll have to hang around Knots for quite a while before we're willing to give that away...
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Thanks all for the participation. Long ago before time I was taught to joint a face, then joint an edge using the flat face and then plane to thickness. Later we would rip to width knowing that we had one square side. We were using rough stock.At my home shop I have the planer and the table saw and a router table (and some other tools not relevant to this topic) and I think I am going to try to live with these things to prepare my chain store wood for awhile.I'd really like the 8" jointer but mostly lack the space for it. The funds would show up in the next few months.Even writing this I just feel like I'm missing a shop "limb" so to speak. I'll see how it goes and continue to ponder if I am doing the right thing every time I prepare stock for a new project.On another note -- I sure don't remember lumber costing so much. 1x6x8 at $3.90 a foot for maple at the big chain store and I just bought some 3/4" plywood at $35 a sheet and it was a pretty crappy grade. Do those prices sound high to you all where you live.David
DavidSL,
You can make a much bigger impact on your wood cost with a bandsaw than a jointer. I was paying over $70 or a sheet of ply, now I almost always resaw and glue up panels.
David,
I've got a 8" jointer and use it when I am "working". That is, getting paid to build. When I am building for myself or flattening a board too wide for the jointer (eg. 36" wide bench legs!), I use a scrub plane or a router surfacing set up if there is a lot of material to remove. For me, It's fun versus efficiency. By the way, I don't expect a perfect glass-smooth cut from my jointer -or any of my power tools for that matter. I almost always finish with hand tools.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I have a little different take on the jointer than some of the responders. Most every piece of wood in my projects goes up against a straight fence during construction. It may be the table saw, shaper, router table, jigs, chop saw, etc. Without a straight edge, you compromise the accuracy of these machines and you can have safety issues, as well. If there is a machine that I would not like to live without, it's the jointer. That straight edge is the foundation on which every other process relies. You can't even square up an end if you don't have a true edge to reference from.
I can plane rough boards without flattening a face on the jointer nine times out of ten. A big wide jointer is nice to have but it's not a necessity. A long bed on a jointer is desirable when edging longer stock. It's pretty easy to make extensions for a small jointer, solving the length issue. With the exception of large table tops, the majority of the pieces in my projects are not much wider than 4". Often these are things like stiles and rails for doors, legs. aprons, moldings, spindle stock and so on. Having these parts flat and straight is important.
When you use machines to cut joints like stile and rail, mortises and tenons, miters, half laps, you often reference from both sides of the stock or have to have adjoining pieces come out flush with each other. Slight variations in thickness can be multiplied by two if your lumber is not all the same. Three joints may come out perfect while the fourth is loose and sloppy. This is one reason woodworkers like to buy rough stock and dress it out themselves.
S4S stock doesn't come in various thicknesses, you are primarily stuck with 3/4" material. The stock is normally dressed on production equipment. Often doubled sided planers are used. This means one side is planed in the direction of the grain while the opposite side is against the grain. Obviously, the quality of the surface is compromised. It's seldom that the stock is flattened first, it just goes in the planer. As a result, S4S is not truly straight, flat and dressed to an equal thickness. It won't be long before these issues raise their head in your work. Buying rough stock is not so much about saving money, it's more about saving your sanity and taking your workmanship to the next level. As long as I'm working my lumber against a straight fence, I want a jointer. I think it's essential in the shop, more so than many other machines and tools.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
My take on this issue is similar to hammer1. While I've the skill to correctly square and surface rough boards with handplanes, it's a boatload of work. For this reason, my jointer is indispensable.
I primarily make 18th century reproductions with wide boards. For this reason, I almost never joint a face flat, but I always pass one edge over the jointer, then clean up the marks with a handplane.
In regards to $3.90/bf for run of the mill maple S4S no more than 6" wide, yeah, that's expensive. I typically pay about $3 b.f for rough stock maple, but it's at minimum 12" wide and 4/4 (or about 1 inch) in thickness. Typically, S4S material is not a "One by", though it may be designated as such. The trick here is that the material is dimensioned before it goes to the planer, so "1 inch" stock is usually no better than 7/8" thick, and more commonly 3/4" thick. Nevertheless, you're paying as if it was 1 inch thick.
If you build quite a few projects, you'll save that $600 expenditure on a jointer in short order. With maple/poplar/pine, probably in the first 600 board feet. With walnut/cherry/mahogany, probably in the first 200 board feet.
Sadly, $35/sheet for cabinet grade ply is pretty common, depending on the species and whether it's A/B or A/C plywood ("A" referring to the grade on one side, "B or C" referring to the grade on the other). One warning - a good bit of plywood is coming from China these days. Avoid it like the plague. It's typically undersized (even undersized for plywood, which is always undersized in the thickness dimension), not even close to flat with lots of dimples and rises in the surface where the underlying plys were not correctly thicknessed, and, at least in my expereince, has lots of voids in the interior. I learned my lesson the hard way.
David in NC
"If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway"
AMEN !!
I've posted on more than one occasion that if I had to start all over, a large jointer would be my first stationary power tool purchase. All else follows that first straight edge!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
How much? Depends upon the wood, but as an example I now pay about $4/bdft wholesale for Sel & Better cherry whereas I was paying around $12/bdft retail for S2S that was still not straight. At those prices it only takes 75bdft before a small 6" would pay for itself. S4S is not usually straight enough for my needs and the other problem is it can bow if you try to rip it into smaller widths. Once you start working with truly straight stock you will not go back if you are fussy and dont mind spending the time.
Brad
I could live without a jointer about as well as I could get by without a tablesaw, bandsaw, planer, DP, or router. None are a necessity for life, or for woodworking for that matter, but each sure has a purpose and makes things go much better in the shop for me. There's no better tool than a jointer for flattening a face and an adjacent edge, but there are workarounds if need be.
Edited 4/23/2008 11:57 am ET by Knotscott
I have a jointer, but I find myself using my Baily #8 (#7 or #6) plane and a Veritas magnetic guide most of the time. The jointer is most useful for taking a whisker off the width of a board, or on stock with knots (can't always afford the good stuff...)
I'd like to sell my thickness planer. Turns out a rotary planer on my radial arm saw works just as well, and with no snipe.
"I'd like to sell my thickness planer. Turns out a rotary planer on my radial arm saw works just as well, and with no snipe."
Man, are we on different sides of the boat! If I had to give up every power tool I own, the planer would be the last to go. I love my RAS, and use it all the time, but I once had a piece literally explode, showering the shop with wood shrapnel, using a rotary planer on it. The scariest shop "accident" I ever experienced. Never used the rotary planer again.
As for snipe, I find that once properly adjusted, my cheapo DeWalt planer produces no detectable snipe if you lift up on the board a bit on the way in and on the way out (when only one set of rollers is engaged) to keep it flat on the table .
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"if you lift up on the board a bit on the way in and on the way out (when only one set of rollers is engaged)to keep it flat on the table ."Grabbed a piece of scrap and tried this. Eureka! With a bit of practice, it works! Even with my truly el cheapo Craftsman planer which lacks in feed and out feed support and doesn't lock.
Have to move the machine so that it's easier to reach both sides. The lack of in feed and out feed support may be a plus. Makes the stock easier to hang onto and lift.
A slide for use under shorter or thiner stock seems worth a try too.
Planer might not be in the next garage sale after all. Roughing plane might though...
Glad it worked for you. If your planer has any adjustment mechanism for the infeed/outfeed tables, you might want to crank 'em up just a bit so they keep the stock tipped slightly towards the machine.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
PS: "Have to move the machine so that it's easier to reach both sides."
You just need your very own version of My Lovely Assistant -- that way, you have one person to "pitch" and one to "catch". When doing anything more than a few boards, we usually run the whole lot through with her "pitching" and me "catching". Then we spin the planer around, give the crank 1/2 a turn down, and reverse the process.
Edited 4/23/2008 11:26 am ET by MikeHennessy
Mike,
Man, you've got it made!
By the by, are you entering the Grand Prix out Pittsburgh way this weekend. I think it's this weekend?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Man, you've got it made!"
You'll get no argument from me on that one!
"By the by, are you entering the Grand Prix out Pittsburgh way this weekend. I think it's this weekend?"
Are you refering to the Vintage GP? If so, well, I guess *I'm* vintage, but my car (OK, truck) ain't. ;-)
(That, and it's not until July 6.)
Actually, just last night, I was looking on the Net at some '70s Husqvarna 250CRs for sale (I had one that I raced back when I was a mere "yoot") and a bunch of the sellers mentioned they run vintage motocrosses now.
Man, if I was in the market for a fun way to do myself in . . . .
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Are you refering to the Vintage GP?
Yup, that's it. Guess I was off on the date though.
I've only had the pleasure of going to Pittsburgh once and I was thinking about all the hills and bridges on the roads in the city and how they wind around all over.
Must make for quite the race!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I guess I am from the old school. Most of the wood that I use is roughsawn and I pick it up at auctions, etc for less that $1/bf. It is usually twisted and bowed but a scrub plane and a 22"-24" Jointer plane makes short work of flattening one side and one edge. Sometimes I cheat and it goes to the 13" planer & drum sander. Most of the time I just flip it over and plane it down to thickness or re-saw it with the bandsaw.
I have a small power jointer but it hasn't been used in years. No room and not really a need for an aircraft carrier to get what I need done. I really enjoy the smooth swish of a sharp blade over a long piece of wood.
No, I don't miss the noise.
Red
I can't. An essential tool in my shop.
Paul
You can joint a surface on a planer, using a sled, and some baggies of plaster Paris. You put the piece on the sled with the baggies of plaster Paris underneath the board, between the board and the sled. Once the plaster of Paris hardens the board can do through the planer without rocking and wiggling, and you can joint the face. Run it through the planer with the jointed face down, and cut the other one parallel.
You can edge joint using a jointing fence on a router table or the table saw. Or, using an edge guide and a router.
So, there are work-a-rounds to a jointer that do work well. I'm not sure they work as fast, but they do work as well.
So, the question you have to decide is; whether you would use a jointer often enough to make it worth the time savings.
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