I’m relatively new to woodworking with stationary machines, though I’ve been making things from and with wood all my life. Now I’ve got a new tablesaw (powermatic), drill press (powermatic), bandsaw (Laguna), and dust collector (Oneida). Only the Oneida is made in America (I believe so, anyway). Now I’m in the market for a planer and a jointer. I cringe when I see a metal tag or sticker on a machine that says “made in China” and I’m about to the point of screaming. Are there any quality machines out there actually MADE in America? Thanks.
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Replies
If you want to buy new and don't have many, many, thousands to spend the answer is "no". If you have the thousands, look up Tannewitz and Northfield Foundry and Machine, or if you consider Canadians "close enough" look at the General, not General International tools.
John White
Yestermorrow School, Waitsfield, Vermont
Edited 10/9/2007 5:41 pm ET by JohnWW
Thanks, John. And I didn't realize the General and General International were different. Showing my ignorance. But I think I do consider Canadian close enough. And I certainly have nothing against the Italian made products. I just want to buy American. I'll check out your pointers.
jack
Hello Jack
Have you looked into Shopsmith? there pro planner is still one of the best planners I know of,Although it has been on the market for most of my life time, and has not realy changed in 40 years.
It may be smaller than some, (12"width of cut.) but it is verable speed and longer infeed and out feed table,realy help control most problems you can get with more trouble-some woods. Plus it is made in the good old US of A.
Not many corp. can say that.
It cant hurt to take a good look,here is the web site. http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/planers.htm
thats just my two cents.
have a good night.C.A.G.
Curtisthanks for the input. I'll take a look at the shopsmith.
What state is your "Sykesville"?
MD
I'm originally from Sykesville, PA. About ten years ago or so, our respective towns did a visit to each other (mayors). My parents hosted the Sykesville, MD visitors.
Tony Z, nice to meet you. Two Sykesvilles, eh? I've only been here 5 years, and never knew there could be another!
Anyone have experience with an "American-made" Tannewitz 8-inch jointer (new)?
Too bad that General is made in a foreign country (Canada, a few miles north of the US border). I heard this great story that after they make, say, their table saw table tops, they through them out behind the shop to sit on racks in the snow for a year. Then they remill them to perfection. anyways, I find their top of the line table saw made at the old plant in Quebec absolutely excellent.
Cheers,
Jim Bell
Friends,
I am not a troublemaker.
I rarely get into arguments, and am not trying to start one.
I just wanted to give my opinion on "made in America".
I won't argue my position. I just want to express it.I am an American, and proud of it. I have a daughter-in-law from Canada and am proud of her. I came from four Italian grandparents, who came to this country in the early 1900s, and I am proud of them. I was brought up in a town in Connecticut that was about a third each: Italian, Polish and Irish. My friends were either first or second generation United Statesians. Ethnic food was everywhere as well as "foreign" languages. In my home, Italian and English sometimes were seamlessly glued together. Is pizza Italian or American food? Heckuva question, isn't it? Is Starbuck's an American institution. I don't know. In my travels to Europe in the years before Starbucks, there were a lot of coffee houses. Looks to me like Starbucks stole the idea. The only "real" Americans that I know are the American Indians, and they probably descended from folks who got here from other places.It has always seemed to me that the United States is a seamless whole, made up of folks from other places who wanted to come here. When did my grandparents become "Americans"? Was it when their naturalization papers were signed? I dont think so. In their minds, they were Americans already. They also felt, quite rightly, that they were Italians. I don't see any problem with that. They were both. I like "Quality". I like good food, good people, good cars, and especially, GOOD TOOLS. I really don't care if my Lie Nielsens were made in Maine or in the Ukraine. Indeed, I have no real way of knowing if the LN people make em here or sneak em in at night. :-) And I could care less.The best thing for Americans is to stay competitive. The best way to do that is to have good competition from other places. Auriou rasps are really nice. Who cares where they come from? If some enterprising folks from the great state of Maryland or New Jersey come up with a way to make a better, cheaper rasp than Auriou, more power to them. Until then, Auriou is keeping America strong by giving us a standard to work up to. There was a time when America made the best cars (IMHO). No longer. I hope that comes back. Until then, I buy Toyota. For folks of my means, Toyota or Honda are very very good quality. Selling and servicing those things is making some Americans rich, and others comfortable. I used to look to Delta tools first. I don't any longer. But when I did, I really wasn't thinking of whether they were made in America. I was thinking that they had been around since the year 1, and would be around forever, supplying parts for all past machines. Now I just look for quality, regardless of where it is made. Now Delta disappoints me.Maybe it is better if "Americans" are more into services, and the Chinese are more into manufacturing. I'd like to see us Americans do well, and I'd like to see the Chinese do well. I used to worry about the Chinese. Now they seem to becoming more "American". Heck, in 20 years they may be more "American" than we are now, if you catch my drift.Well, I have gone on far too long. I have a feeling that in this audience, there are some who like to listen to Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. Personally, I'd rather listen to Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth. Now I am going to have to find out where they are from.Here on Knots, many of the people that I really pay attention to are not from the US of A. I'd make a list, but you already know who they are, and they are quite competent. You could almost say, "they are the best at what they do." I like Knots because it is an international group. If we limited Knots to just Americans, I'd leave it. (Heck, after this message, I may get thrown out.)Don't get me wrong. I am an American and proud of it. I also am proud to say that I love quality, no matter where it comes from. And when I see it, I want to learn how to do it. That is one of the things that made America great. We used to buy from other countries, then we copied the styles of other countries, then we started making our own stuff, our own way. Hope I didn't upset anyone. I am not trying to impose my ideas on anyone. That is what is nice about the US -- there are differences in ideas, and we can express them. That is a great thing. I hope that no one thinks that I am trying to talk them into thinking my way. I just wanted to get another point of view on the table.Have a good day (no matter where you are from).
Indeed, how do we on the internet know where anyone is from, or who they are, or what they do? That is one of the great things about the internet. It is the great equalizer (in a way). I have indicated that I am a 64 year old Virginian woodworking hobbyist, but I might just be a 22 year old Scandinavian pizza shop owner, or I might be in a Peruvian prison for stealing other people's furniture designs. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I don't think it's so much that many here think in terms of us/them or conservative/liberal with regard to the made in America issue. And it really can't be a quality thing as much of the rest of the world has been producing high quality products since before the U.S. was a country. I think many are simply bothered and frustrated by the loss of jobs, especially in manufacturing, from this country. You are right about staying competitive, but with the cost of labor being what it is in some parts of the world, the U.S. just can't compete in some things when it comes to price. In the end, all this country really needs is a good 5 cent cigar.Mike
Mike,
Agreed.
We need a good 5 cent cigar --
as long as it is nicotine-free, and the tobacco was grown on a unionized farm, and transported by a Teamster, and as long as it is smoked in a well ventilated area.
:-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"...but with the cost of labor being what it is in some parts of the world, the U.S. just can't compete in some things when it comes to price."
Which, of course, is directly tied to standard of living. As consumers, Americans want everything to be low-priced, and most will gladly pass up quality if it means a better price. As producers, Americans want to get the highest price possible. You just can't have it both ways.
-Steve
"Which, of course, is directly tied to standard of living. As consumers, Americans want everything to be low-priced, and most will gladly pass up quality if it means a better price. As producers, Americans want to get the highest price possible. You just can't have it both ways."That's one thing that always pizzes me off when I hear union people, driving with a "Buy Union, Buy American" bumper sticker, complaining about how expensive things are. It's even more annoying when they do this at Wally-World. The "They make too much money for what I do, so I want more of it" only drives the cost up but they don't give a rat's azz since the only thing they care about is getting theirs. There's no thought given to the whole picture.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Melyou're post makes me think that maybe my "American made" question appeared racist. I hope that's not the case. It was all about economics. I, too, wish the American made was more competitive. I, too, was born in CT, and ALL of my grandparents were foreign speaking immigrants Italian, French Canadian, and Portguese). Sorry if I stirred any emotions - my post never said anything bad about anyone or any product. But thanks.jack
But, Forest Girl, my last purchase was the PM2800 drill press. Right on the metal tag afixed to the head: "CHINA". Bet very few people knew that.
It could well be that any pre-existing quality differential between China and Taiwan is narrowing, as we speak. If WMH Tool Group has the leverage to get proper quality-control mechanisms in place in China and produce quality tools, that is/will be a good thing.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I too was born in CT a half + century ago. Waterbury was the "Brass City" and my grandfather and many of my friend's father's were machinists, engineers, etc. They MADE things and for the most part, made them very well. I stopped in CT in Jan. to visit friends and noticed how many of those shops and factories are no longer around. Time's, they are a changin'.
Mel,
Very well done!
Bob
Bob,
That was a nice thing to say.
I actually wrote it more for myself than for anyone else. It was fun to think about. Knots is a place for sound bites, not novels, but my mind took off on its own journey and I wrote down the words that it said. My mind has a mind of its own.Again, thank you for the nice words. Glad to hear that there is one other person in the world who feels similarly. That feels good.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel..Well, I have gone on far too long.Gee... Why do you hold back so much? LOL.. A good read...I for one think your post should be mandated that it be displayed in VERY LARGE PRINT on every container on those HUGE ships that dock in American ports! And on the ones that leave our ports in several different languages!
WG,
Thanks for the nice words.
Keep saying such things.
I will send you money.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yes, you can buy a complete workshop of all the basic machinery including shaper, tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, planer and radial arm saw from that are made in America. The manufacturer is Northfield Foundary & Machine Co. The tools are absolutely first rate, they will outlive you easily. There is only one problem, aside from their tools being a little old fashioned:
The base model table saw has a base price of $12,960, though by stepping up to $16,410 you can add a rolling table.
The Northfield 18" surfacer (their smallest model) is $16,340.
They do have a small jointer. The 8" Medium Duty jointer is $10,870. But why not go for the 24" heavy duty jointer at $17,860?
The thing is that the US doesn't have an advantage anymore in making machinery. Most of us would rather pay less and have the quite serviceable equipment, if not so finely made as before, that is now being manufactured, to US specifications, in the far east. Quality shortcomings are largely in the specifications which call for meeting low price-points to satisfy the American consumer. If consumers passed up $1,300 Taiwanese cabinet saws for the finer fit and finish of a $3,000 US model there would be saws made in the US.
You can also buy old iron, made in the US. My Delta Unisaw, Rockwell HD Lathe, and Delta 14" bandsaw are all US made. I believe the Unisaw is over 50 years old.
That about says it, Steve. The cost difference is incredible, and one that is way out of reach for most of the American consumer market. It appears that either if it weren't for the far east manufacturers, hobbyist and small business woodworking would be extinct, or American-made machines would have stayed closer to affordable. Who's to know. I wonder what Lou Dobbs would say about this. Let's see, the cost of my daughter's college eduction or a suite of American-made woodworking machines? I don't think there's a choice. Thanks for the input.
Do be aware that when I used the Northfield machines as an example it is hyperbole. These aren't the same as a Made in America Unisaw, they are full fledged industrial equipment made for continuous use in demanding production settings. It's wasn't ever made to compete than that market.
But the principle remains the same. Made in the US would cost more, though as a guess its more likely the Unisaw equivalent would be more like $2,700. The prices were heading that way even with Asian competition. Of course Unisaw and its imitators won't be around for very much longer since in a few years all new saws will have to be redesigned to include riving knives.
Dear Syk,
I like your choices so far. I can appreciate the whole "Made in America" thing, but as others have pointed out, the cost is staggering. For a planer you could consider "Woodmaster"
http://www.woodmastertools.com/
"Made in America" it is, but for a jointer, I think that you are looking at big bucks or old iron. "General" (As mentioned : NOT General International) still make jointers: http://www.general.ca/pagetitre/ang/jointers.html
With either a jointer or planer, I strongly remommend a Byrd cutterhead: http://www.byrdtool.com/journals.html
A lot of manufactureres are offering them now, (Made in America) and they are terrific. I have one on my Asian jointer and it is just great.
Best,
John
Dear 'Sykes';
Don't scream to loud. I know how you feel. I was just talkin' to Ray on another thread about some old Wards and Sears tools. I tell myself, It's gonna' be OK old fella!
From the tools you picked, I'd say you appreciate "value" understood by the modern world as the ratio of "utility over cost". Both numerator and denominator deserve further inspection. Having used allot of bum tools from here and elsewhere, I try my best to pick the best. Frankly, I love to stumble on a US vendor like 'Whiteside' that is among the very best and is right here (well OK, over yonder out east). I really have enjoyed talking to their tech help folks and using their products.
I look for and have US brands, but as you point out, many US brands have their items sourced abroad. But I also have Hilti, some Bosch, some Mekeita, etc. Those guys, (wayy wayy over there) get the worthless Federal Reserve notes and I get their beautiful tools! It's for sure better to buy from the best than to fight them, even knowing my kids are going to have to pay the piper.
When I hire engineers and technicians here in Silicon valley, I also pick the very best. I end up with brilliant Greek and Chinese, German and Indian engineers and scientists, some Arkies and Oakies and Cuban and Mexican professionals who are, after all, real Americans from 'the Americas'; even a few New Englander and Texan types, when I can find em' even though some of their homies want out just now. The pleasure of the debate and the 'put up or shut up' in the real work place among folks that are really different is priceless and endless. I am so lucky to be there.
You'd never believe how well these young (to me) guys and gals mix and work when they find out just how good all the others really are. IMHO when you pick the best, whether it is the best use of your time, the best colleague or the best tool maker/product, you are doing your part for the US. Who among us would want their own product or service to be second rate?
red
Portola Valley, CA
Just a note. General and General International are the same company. The General International is the name they put on there imported (Chinese) machines and General, without the international, is on the machines make in <!----><!----><!---->Canada<!----><!---->.
<!----><!----> <!---->
I find it interesting that companies that started importing cheep knock offs of American machines now own the American companies that originally made them (JET owning Powermatic for instance). I do try to buy American when I can but it is getting harder to find any consumer goods made here. A funny note is that a Chinese student visiting a local university had to ask for advice on where she could find some souvenirs to take back to her friends and family in <!----><!---->China<!----><!---->. Every thing she found to buy here was made in <!----><!---->China<!----><!---->. There is a good article in Popular Science about how the Chinese cloners work. They are very good at ripping of companies and disregarding patents and it doesn’t seem to matter who they do it to. There is a local shop importing Chinese nock offs of Honda 4 wheelers and dirt bikes that are part for part compatible. In <!----><!---->China<!----><!---->, you can even buy Chinese cars that part for part compatible to Chevys BMWs and Benzes. Before long I will be able to by a Chinese copy of a F150 and when I need parts I will be able to choose between the Chinese parts bin of go to Ford and buy one make in <!----><!---->Mexico<!----><!---->.
<!----> <!---->
This is not a new phenomenon. Bloomington Indian was for years the TV capitol of the world. Why? Because RCA moved production out of <!----><!---->New York<!----><!----> to take advantage of cheaper Hoosier labor. In the long run companies will always look for ways to make more money and labor is always a major cost. The major difference now is that governments no longer use tariffs to protect local jobs. Often times there are tax incentives for companies to move production off shore. It is not just the cost of labor but also they can account for revenue in a way to avoid taxes, another major cost of doing business. Seems like we spent the last 50 years in a cold way against communism and now we are subsidizing it. Even our favorite topic is not immune. I was in al furniture store (to buy a mattress and box spring for a bed my son and I made) and I was looking at a nice chest with a lot or carving on it. When I ask where it was made, the sales man told me <!----><!---->Vietnam<!----><!---->, and he said a lot of high-end woodworking is being done there. Seems they are the new low cost country. I left the chest on the showroom floor.
<!----> <!---->
Sorry about the rant, this is just one of those topics I think will bite us in the backside in the long run. “Just my opinion I could be wrong”.
Jet did not buy Powermatic. Jet was purchased from the original entreprenurs by the Walter Meier Holdings (WMH) group out of Switzerland. Powermatic was part of Houdaille Industries who tired of trying to make a profit in the highly competitve tool market. Houdaille dumped Powermatic and it languished for a brief period, even briefly shutting down.
Then the newly formed WMH Tool Group purchased Powermatic and put it into the same "stable" that has Jet. They also own the Wilton brand. I think all of their products are made off shore now although there may be some assembly here.
Edited 10/11/2007 12:26 pm ET by ETG
Why is it that all "Far East" machines get lumped together as "Made in China"???? My experience, limited though it be, is that "Made in Taiwan" is generally different from "Made in China" The better imported machines seem to be made in Taiwan, the realllllly CHEAP stuff made in China.
Without running over to a friend's house and looking at his General International saw's name plate, I'm willing to make a small bet that it was made in Taiwan, not in China.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
the realllllly CHEAP stuff made in China..Not quite true. I have seen some factories in China that would make your jaw drop and some that would make you sick. Like anywhere else in this world.
WillGeorge, if you read both of my posts (I think I made two; maybe 3??) you'll see that I'm all for China progressing such that they move away from their reputation of producing sub-par merchandise. For instance, if some of the Powermatic stuff is coming from China (as opposed to Taiwan) and it hasn't slipped in quality, that's great. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Accounting plays a large role in determining the country of origin. You need to be very careful what 'Made in USA' really means.
Wikipedia's Made in USA is a good starting point for anybody who wants to understand how up to 25% of the value of a product 'Made in the USA' can come from anywhere in the world but the USA.
Atlanta, GA
Galoot-Tools
First, you don't see Sykesville very often - I know because I'm in Westminster. Second, I have some "old iron" - Delta jig saw and Delta Bandsaw for sale and have contacts for more "old iron" if you are interested. Send me an email - [email protected].
"I cringe when I see a metal tag or sticker on a machine that says "made in China" and I'm about to the point of screaming. Are there any quality machines out there actually MADE in America? Thanks."
I think there are two separate issues that simultaneously come up whenever the Made in xxxx issue comes up.
The first is, does "Made in China" automatically mean poor quality? Clearly the answer is no. There is a lot of dreck that gets imported from China, but as has been mentioned before, there is some very good manufacturing that comes from China as well.
The second is, does "Made in America" automatically imply good quality? Again, clearly the answer is no. If American labor automatically meant a high quality product, then no one in the U.S. would ever complain about a shoddy contractor who did bad work on their house.
So the real question is, why are you cringing when you see the "Made in China" tag? If it is simply a concern that your Chinese-made machinery will not be up to snuff, then it's just a matter of finding the Chinese-made machinery that are good buys and good quality. They do exist. If you are looking to avoid Chinese-made machinery for other reasons, well, that's your choice.
I would think there is another aspect to this as well.
How well do these American brands, being made in foreign countries, maintain quality standards over the foreign manufacturers? What standards have been established and how stringent are they held to?
One would think, or at least like to think, that if an American companies off shore their manufacturing, they would want the integrity of their reputation held up.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/12/2007 2:35 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"One would think, or at least like to think, that if an American companies off shore their manufacturing, they would want the integrity of their reputation held up."
I think that goes back to the question of business philosophy. Is your reputation important to you? Do you want to set a high standard and make sure that your subcontractors--wherever they are--live up to that standard? Or do you want to take the current Wall Street approach and make a quick buck, without regard to any possible long-term ill effects?
-Steve
Edited 10/12/2007 5:06 pm ET by saschafer
I tested a lot of tools for FWW Magazine over the years and it became quite obvious that most machines came out of only one or two factories despite the paint job and easily changed details like knobs and switches. It was also obvious that some brands consistently had a better fit and finish compared to other machines coming from the same plant. I've read a number of articles about the problems of quality control with Chinese made goods. The ethic in China is basically "let the buyer beware", so the machine importers that were vigilant and kept full time inspectors at the plants when their machines are being made get a better quality machine than importers that don't keep an eye on the assembly line.John White
Formerly the Shop Manager for Fine Woodworking Magazine
"I've read a number of articles about the problems of quality control with Chinese made goods. The ethic in China is basically "let the buyer beware", so the machine importers that were vigilant and kept full time inspectors at the plants when their machines are being made get a better quality machine than importers that don't keep an eye on the assembly line."John,The "buyer beware" ethic is not limited to China. It is very prevalent here in the U.S., as well as every other part of this world. I'd appreciate it if you didn't phrase your thoughts to make it seem like China is the only place where this happens.
Wilbur,
You were talking about "buyer beware" in the US as well as in China.
A fact which supports you is the 50% divorce rate in this country.I was having some fun trying to come up with a way of helping couples who are thinking of getting married, be more aware. I have seen snippets of Jerry Springer's old TV show in which married couples with bad problems would confront each other and the audience would judge who was in the right. Why not have each engaged couple get on a Jerry Springer type show, and let the audience decide, before they get married, if they should "beware".Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Why not have each engaged couple get on a Jerry Springer type show, and let the audience decide???Damn Mell! They are both idiots for being on that show in the first place!
Wilbur:another lurking dichotomy, "Made in America v. 'Made in America.'"
I Have a 26" Cresent Planer, & a 12" Moak Jointer both American Made that I've Been Trying to Sell. It's Tough to Compete w/ the Chineese Market. You can Have Both for $2500.. E-Mail me if Interested @ [email protected] or Call me @ (412) 351-7725. The Equiptment is in Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks,
Larry
Hi Sykesville,
I am a huge fan of machines manufactured in the U.S. in the 1950's and 60's. Such machines were incredibly well made and usually included massive cast iron parts you don't find on contemporary machines. This mass tends to reduce vibration, which can result in cleaner work. Another significant advantage of old machines is cost. One can pick up an old jointer, planer, or band saw for a fraction of the cost of a new machine.
When you think about it, the technology of most of the machines used by hobbyist and small-shop woodworkers hasn't changed a huge amount in the past 50 years. There have been improvements in fences, bandsaw guides, and some safety features, but at the end of the day, the idea remains to spin steel in a manner fast and true enough to accurately remove wood.
Specific brands I have enjoyed using at my workplace include Tannewitz, Crescent, Northfield, and Oliver. The classifieds at WoodWeb often include various machines of these makes. EBay can be a good source, too, as can Industrial Recovery Services. In those cases, you'd probably just want to look at machines in your locale--crating and freight on these old monsters would be prohibitive.
Lastly, before purchasing an old machine, take a look at the fantastic website Old Woodworking Machines (http://www.owwm.com/). There you'll find all manner of expert advice, old product manuals, and other terrific information to guide your treasure hunt.
Best,
8675309
Visit me at The Wood Mechanic site!
sykesville,
Even if you could find American Iron chances are that iron came thru China..
Up on the Mesabi Iron range in Northern Minnesota where much of this nations Iron came from. China recently bought one of the bigger more productive ones. The Americans who owned it sold it because they felt they could get a better rate of return in other investments.. In fact most larger mines are foreign owned..
The Chinese using American labor, much of the american made equipment already at the mine is still used, they use American ore carriers and run it into American smelters it's turned into iron and sent to China where they make equipment from it and send it back here..
Oft times it's cheaper for foundries to buy China iron rather than American iron in spite of the two ocean voyages.
It's a global economy, No longer does Henry Ford make 80% of the world auto production, American made doesn't even mean all the stuff in it is made in America just 51% by weight..
One of the truely Ironic things I saw when I visited a factory where much of the US Armies amunition was being made was the crates and crates of I think it was tungston stamped made in the Soviet Union. with the arm and hammer logo clearly stammped in red..
Turns out even during the height of the war in Vietnam we were buying it from the Soviet Union because it was cheaper and better than the stuff we got from South African
Edited 10/13/2007 2:47 pm ET by frenchy
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