Replies

1. 
   rslatm | Jul 24, 2003 04:42pm | #1

   Go to http://www.woodweb.com

   It's a pro site with a forum dedicated to such topics.
1. 
   DennisS | Jul 24, 2003 06:33pm | #2

   Thank you, Rick...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Adrian | Jul 25, 2003 03:05pm | #3

   Yup, Planit now owns both Cabnetware and Cabinetvision; can't remember what else they own, but they are trying to buy up the competition....they may own Alphacam, can't remember. Cware and Cvision used to be fierce competitors; there was a big court case a few years ago, each caliming the other had stolen all their stuff. Cware is often felt to be easier for someone on the shopfloor to learn, but less flexible than Vision; Vision can do more, but it's more complicated, and maybe you don't need what it can do. Both can go directly to CNC if you want, both can do optimising if you want. People tend to divide into diehard camps and then go into diatribes about the other program. if you go to the pro sites, you will see more debate on this than you can imagine; try http://www.cabinetmakeronline, http://www.cadcode.com, etc.

   I have and teach Cabnetware (as well as Autocad and CAD/CAM). It's a good production tool....gets design/cutlisting done very quickly, if I was making kitchens I don't know how you could get along without a program like that. You do the design (dragging items out of liraries and customising); as you're doing that, the program is cutlisting, counting hardware, figuring door and drawer sizes, countertops, etc.....any little change, things get updated automatically. If you do very custom stuff, you may find it a little limiting.....the programs can be bought in different levels: more power, more money. But a lot of commercial/architectural people still use Autocad or programs based on Acad like Microvellum.....2d drawings are all you really need except for dealing with homeowners.

   I'm not sure about changes to walls, to tell you the truth. I've made lots of changes to cabiets, but I haven't had to do a change to the walls. My program isn't running at the moment, because of some upgrading, so I can't check. But to redraw a kitchen once you have it figured out doesn't take very long anyway.....fifteen minutes, half an hour maybe, depending how good you are (and all that other stuff is going on in the background, so you're not still up at 3 in the morning trying to get that estimate done)cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

1. 
   DennisS | Jul 25, 2003 06:02pm | #4

   Adrian -

   Thanks for the information, Adrian.

   I'm a long time AutoCAD user, teacher, user group moderator, blah-blah-blah,... so I consider myself something beyond a CAD 'drafter'. All by way of getting to the point that - I'm amazed at what these specialty software packages do for the price. As you well know, out of the box AutoCAD for (what is it now...?) $US3000.00 does little more than creat lines arcs and circles. Well, given the incorporation of solids modeling you now have various primitives to work with, but one is still left to one's devices to turn them into anything meaningful.

   In the consulting work I do (precast & cast-in-place concrete detailing) I use 3D solids modeling to literally build the building from the ground up. I've tried doing this to design and detail the kitchen in the house we're remodeling. I spent three hours one evening laying out the face frames just for the base cabinets. Don't have any doors or drawer fronts yet. And from that about all I have is a 3D model I can render, plot or use to generate 2D elevations and so forth. No cutlist, accounting, panel nesting .....

   I'll be meeting with the local CV customer service person in a couple weeks for a demo of their product(s). From the literature that they sent me, there's a rather confusing array of options with regard to, as you mention, more power, more bux, etc., but there also seems to be a lot of similarity between each of the products even given a similar price.

   I guess most of the questions I have will be best answered at that time, though.

   Again, thanks for your comments.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Adrian | Jul 25, 2003 09:01pm | #5

   The programs are pretty amazing, at what they do. The problems arise when you want them to do something juuuust  a leeeeetle bit different, and they won't let you. The salesman will say they can, no problem....make him show you. A lot of time is involved in getting every parameter set exactly right also, or your cutlists won't be right. I don't much care for the graphics, but they get the idea across.

   They are an amazing production and business tool though.....half an hour and you've got a design, cutlist, door and drawer list, hardware count, proposal/contract etc. etc. It will optimise all your sheets if you have that module, and bang, staright to the CNC if you have that. Not cheap though; I need to upgrade mine....got a ballpark, well into the five figures for a 'works' package.

   Good luck.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

2. 
   DennisS | Jul 26, 2003 09:40am | #6

   > ....The salesman will say they can, no problem....make him show you.

   hehehehe .... yeah, I've been to countless demos of AutoCAD previews of new releases, Autodesk Inventor (a mechanical design package) and others where the promoters have this canned presentation. I attended one at a local dealer and asked to see what's called 'cam follower' linking (in Inventor II as I recall) and the guy got all glassy eyed and .... well, I'm sure you know the scene.

   You bet I'll prepare list of "can I do this" questions for the sales rep. This will be pretty cool since it's literally one-on-one.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   CreativeWood | Jul 26, 2003 06:58pm | #7

   Hello Dennis.....

   I own and operate a copy of CV Manufacturing and CW Cabnetworks.

   My copy of CV includes: PhotoVision, WoodWizard, Optimizer and the 32mm module, CW does not need the PhotoVision package as it has a great render package, but I do have the Optimizer and the Frame and Frameless version with it as well, and am able to get to the WoodWizard files from within CW. Both packages offer the Wood Wizard, Optimizer, Cnc link ect. ect at extra cost, so you can see where these programs can get very expensive.

   CV is a little more user friendly when setting it up, while CW is a bit more detailed, "If you run your own cabinet shop, this is a pluse". Takes longer to set up CW though.

    I have been running them both for some time now and do some consulting in my area.

   Both programs are very powerful and very expensive, they also have a steep learning curve on them and you will only get back what you invest into them.

   Tell me a bit about what exactly you would like to accomplish with these programs and I will do my best to try and give you some answers as to what and how you can accomplish it. The salesmen will tell you it can do circles around the moon yet they can not take you for that ride as it is a canned sales pitch, and they really don't have the slightest clue as to what these programs can do.

   Some thing to keep in mind is, though these 2 programs are owned buy the same company, they run on separate engines so the way you interact with them is different.

   Both have there place in the industry so make sure you know what direction you are headed in and make an educated decision, as I said: they are not cheap!

   Let me know if I can be of help, I would be willing to post some of the work that I get from these programs if I could figure out how to post on this forum.

   God Bless.......

   Raul S

   Creative Woods

1. 
   DennisS | Jul 27, 2003 01:37am | #8

   Raul ....

   > ...Tell me a bit about what exactly you would like to accomplish with these programs and ...

   Here's the complete story, Raul -

   I'm retired (or retiring) architect and will be moving to our new country home as soon as we've completed the remodel. I've been a long time (15 years of so) AutoCAD user and for the last 8+ years I've been self employed doing contract detailing work for the precast and concrete subcontractor industry.

   It turns out the one of my new neighbors at our new place is a cabinet maker with his shop at his home next door. I had modeled our new kitchen in AutoCAD and produced some rendered images plotted large format and had them tacked on the wall up there. He got quite excited when he saw then and started talking about how he would like to be able to produce these kinds of marketing tools to sell his work to potential clients. He's already investigated such things as eCabinet Systems and Cabinet vision but, in his own words, he's a cabinet builder and doesn't care to become a computer or CAD wizard. We've been discussing the possibility of a collaboration. I don't see myself dropping completely out of the design/detailing/CAD business any time soon so if this collaboration works out it would be a perfect part time venture for me and a great sales/mfr'ing tool for him.

   He's currently only a small one-two man shop doing specialty custom work. Which is primarily where he'd prefer to stay. No real interest in mass market stuff, more to the high end custom market which is growing in the area where we will be.

   What we've discussed is the potential of having me interact primarily with the client at the outset of the project to produce design layout and illustration drawings. I also would be introducing custom options for cabinet design ideas, materials, and the kind of artsie-fartsie things that us architects are good at (grin). Theoretically, once the job is sold and signed off, all the detailing work material costs and such would be "known" by the software and we could order material and go straight to the shop and start building once the material arrives. At the moment, there's no immediate plans on integrating CNC machinery due to space and cost constraints.

   I've spent hours and hours building the 3D model of our new kitchen, literally piece by piece. This is with AutoCAD R14 using ACIS solids and the CSG Editor utility for editing the 3D solids created in AutoCAD. I've also used McNeel's Rhinoceros for creating more complex 3D models for the more sculptural concrete projects I've been asked to detail.

   All of the above merely to explain who and what I am so you'll know better how to respond to questions and/or the kind of advice to give. All of which I thoroughly appreciate, by the way.

   You mention that the software is expensive. I understand to a pretty good degree the complexity of these kinds of applications and I find it simply amazing that they're as *IN*expensive as they are. Most CAD/CAM applications for the mechanical design discipline are easily twice as much. If my cabinet maker friend and I manage to establish this collaboration we have in mind, I can see where we could recoup our investment in the software in a very short time.

   Thanks again for your offer of support. If this tends to get too long winded and too one-on-one perhaps we should take it to email. (?)

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]