Replies

1. 
   ring | Oct 11, 2008 09:13am | #1

   First of all I wouldn't recommend pocket screws as a means of joining any door frame. If you have no shaper or router set, then make traditional mortise and tenon joints. If you are really intimidated by this, or in a terrible hurry, make dowel joints.

   Second, you can avoid cutting the rabbet by adding a molding. For instance, if you take a 3/8" x 3/8" bead profile, you make two sets of mitered trim for every glass opening. One set you glue in permanently on the outer face of the door, thus creating the rabbet. The other set will be used with pins to hold the glass from the inside.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

2. 
   philip | Oct 11, 2008 11:03am | #2

   Further to Rings response and noting the size of the doors I would prefer to do mortice and tenons. Rebating the back for the glass is also most convenient, I feel because it can easily be done by router with some minor chisel work, and it enables the glass to be fitted at the end of the project after polishing or spraying.

   Philip Marcou
3. 
   Dave45 | Oct 11, 2008 04:21pm | #3

   I don't have the glass panel cutters either (they're on my Xmas list, though), but I've had good luck using my cope and stick bits.

   I cut the rails and stiles, assemble them without a panel, then use a 3/8" rabbeting bit to remove the uneeded wood on the inside of the frame. A little work with a chisel to clean up the rounded corners, and I'm ready for the glass.

1. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 11, 2008 11:50pm | #4

   Dave

   You shouldn't rely on the small glue surface of a cope and stick joint when using glass panels instead of wood panels.  It's not strong enough, and destined for failure, usually resulting in broken glass, and possibly an injury.

   A wooden raised or flat panel will lend stability against the racking forces usually applied to doors, and the stress is on the joints.  With a glass panel, the force is applied to the glass when the door racks, and we all know how glass reacts to forces being applied to it.

   It's a good idea for all cope and stick type doors to have the corners reinforced with a M & T joint.  It's a little extra work, but it defines a quality job, in my opinion.

   Jeff

1. 
   Dave45 | Oct 12, 2008 01:44am | #5

   Jeff -Thanks for the input, but I've done glass panel doors like that for quite a while without any failures.I also shoot a couple of small brads into the joints from the back.

1. 
   FrankDrackman | Oct 12, 2008 02:49am | #6

   "I  also shoot a couple of small brads into the joints from the back." 

   If you add "just until the glue dries"  you will sound like New England's favorite carpenter.

    

1. 
   Dave45 | Oct 12, 2008 06:47am | #7

   Nope, I leave them if I'm doing raised panels - or glass.It's probably my paranoia at work, but the weight of raised panels or glass makes me want to add a bit more strength even though I know that the glue surface of a cope and stick joint is plenty strong.My own kitchen cabs (raised panel oak doors) don't have any brads and they've been been there for eight years with no problems. The paying customers, however, get a little "extra" - lolWould you be speaking of the most famous Jewish carpenter in 2000 years? - lol

2. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 12, 2008 07:07am | #8

   I was simply speaking about the difference between "good enough most of the time" and quality.  Forgive me.....

   I laugh to myself when I think of glass panel doors with cope and stick joints.  I'll bet those brads make the difference, though.

   To each his own.

   Jeff

1. 
   drewcboggs | Oct 12, 2008 03:08pm | #9

   Well, I've only made 14 Kitchen Cabinet doors with glass fronts using an MCLS router cutter designed for that type of door construction AND pocket screws. No glass on the floor yet !

2. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 12, 2008 07:38pm | #10

   I want to make sure my position is clear on this.  I'm not saying that making glass panel doors this way isn't going to work.  In a vacuum, they work perfectly, and will last forever.  However, in 20 + years experience as a cabinetmaker, I can tell you that in normal household use, cabinet doors get abused.  Kids climb on counters to get at cookie jars on top of the fridge, and they usually use the upper cabinet door as the item to grab at the top!!  People slam, bam, and wack these doors all the time, too.  Over time, with normal household abuse, these joints do fail.  Believe me, I know.  I make the cabinets and doors that people are replacing their old stuff with when they decide to go to the next step in quality.

   Chances are, if you are gentle with them, there won't be any glass on the floor.  However, I don't want the customer calling me telling me little Johnny is in the hospital needing 10 stitches in his face because the door came crashing down, glass with it, when he was climbing for his favorite cookie.  I believe that top quality work will have top quality joinery.

   Make them any way that you see fit.

   I now believe my point is clear, and am bowing out of this discussion.

   Jeff

2. 
   Dave45 | Oct 12, 2008 10:23pm | #11

   I guess I'm at a loss to understand why a cope and stick frame isn't appropriate for a glass panel door.
   A 3/4" thick raised panel (in oak or maple) will weigh ~2.9 lbs/sq. ft. 3/16" thick tempered safety glass weighs ~2.5 lbs/sq. ft.If a cope and stick joint works for a raised panel, why is it unacceptable with a lighter, glass, panel?I admit to being a Neandertal when I use a couple of brads to add a bit of strength to a cope and stick joint, but I also don't use anything but tempered glass in a glass panel door. I've walked away from a couple of jobs when the customer insisted on regular glass.Unless you're making doors with humongeously large panels, a properly cut and glued cope and stick joint should work just fine.

1. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 13, 2008 01:03am | #12

   Dave

   It's not about the weight of the glass.  It's about it's breakability.  A cope and stick door can be easily racked if an individual pulls down hard on the door when it's attached to the cabinet.  Over time, cope and stick joints have proven to fail in this regard.  For this reason, reinforcing the joint with a M & T is considered appropriate in quality work.

   A raised or flat wooden panel will not shatter like glass, and that is the difference.

   Jeff

1. 
   Dave45 | Oct 13, 2008 01:37am | #13

   Nothing built by man (or woman) will stand up to misuse and/or abuse. I design and build for "normal" use, and "normal" is often defined by the customer. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the people I work for understand that kids swinging on cabinet doors fall far outside of any reasonable definition of "normal" use.Can I build doors with M&T joints? Of course I can. Have I ever run across a customer who was willing to pay for them (or for beautifully dovetailed drawer boxes)? Not so far. (In fact, I've only had a couple of customers who even knew what they were.) Have I ever had a door or drawer fall apart? Again, not so far.I'm almost devastated that I don't meet your standards of "quality", but that's offset by the fact that I have customers, they seem to like me and my work, they refer me to their friends, and I'm meeting the bills. A poor substitute, I suppose, but I sleep good every night.

3. 
   amc69 | Oct 13, 2008 08:21am | #14

        We did this same the same way with a good cope joint and a quality glue and using hard woods for the glass door and a min of 2 1/4 door style and rail parts. We have not had any problems of the sort we had other problems but not busted glass or joints. We would not go over 47 1/2 tall without adding a center rail. I can say that we sent out hundreds of glass doors just like this and never got any R G A s for that problem. I was with a major cabinet company in Waterloo IA and does not rhyme with Betch. I also built 4 of them this way and had no problems at all.