Replies

1. 
   user-156168 | May 01, 2007 04:19am | #1

   You might try a bit of parafin rubbed on the hidden area of the panel, and a bit rubbed in the groove.  That should keep the glue from bonding...... Just my  $.02.

   Space balls might give enough clearance to avoid bonding if the squeeze out isn't excessive.

   Mighty Oak

1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 04:29am | #2

   Good thought on the wax.  I guess I'd just have to take care that it wouldn't mess with the choosen finish. 

1. 
   user-156168 | May 01, 2007 05:46am | #3

    

   This post is an addition to my previous reply.

   Maybe use a little masking tape on the part of the panel that will be exposed, to avoid contamination during application of the wax.......removed after assembly.

   Maybe some thin tape (clear packaging tape .002 ???) .... down, under, up in a "U" shape on the tongue and trim to just under the top of the groove before assembly. (just leave the tape in nobody will know it's there) Probably only need an inch or so each way from the corner....just a thought.

   OR, maybe someone has a better idea.

   Great question!!!! I like it!!!

   Mighty Oak

    

    

2. 
   oldusty | May 01, 2007 08:16am | #4

   Hi Samson ,

                  The application of the glue and controlling the exact amount you use is the key to avoiding unwanted squeeze out .

         After doing and learning by trial and error you will learn where to stop with your glue and also for me the tip on the glue bottle is key to applying the proper amount , too big a opening or hole in the end can make for a mess too small a hole is safer than the opposite imo .

                      good   luck                         dusty

3. 
   philip | May 01, 2007 12:48pm | #5

   Samson, candle wax rubbed on the corners of the panel will help. Ideally one is somehow supposed to be able to gauge the exact quantity of glue and the degree of squeeze out- but it does not happen like that , strangely enough (;).
   Anyway, it is preferable to at least apply a sealer coat to the panel before assembly and this also helps, the degree depends on the type of finish.
   I don't believe it is a big deal in any event: the chances of the glue getting a good grip in that small area are slim, especially if you have left suitable clearance.You can also chisel each corner a bit, like two or three millimetres.

   Philip Marcou
1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 05:12pm | #8

   Thank you Phillip for all the good suggestions.

   As far as the glue not holding if squeeze out occurs though, I'm not so sure as I've ovten been amazed at the tenacity of the holding power of even small drops or smears when scraps or spreaders are laid down upon one another.  The next day as you're cleaning up, you see these two as wed forever.

4. 
   ring | May 01, 2007 03:22pm | #6

   I have to tell you that while I see your question, I think in fact it's a non-issue. When I'm gluing up a frame, I try to use the right amount of glue, but it's not rocket science. It just doesn't warrant taking measures to prevent a problem that doesn't occur. When the clamps go on I move the panel around a bit just to check that its movement isn't hindered. Any bit of excess glue that might touch the panel corner has never had any real grip. When the glue sets you can check for yourself that the panel still has freedom of movement.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 05:08pm | #7

   I have to tell you that while I see your question, I think in fact it's a non-issue.

   Thanks.  That's useful.

   When I'm gluing up a frame, I try to use the right amount of glue

   Yeah, me too.

   but it's not rocket science.

   Gee, it's not?  Guess I can save all that money I was saving up to pursue that glue application PhD.

   It just doesn't warrant taking measures to prevent a problem that doesn't occur.

   Doesn't ever happen.  That's good to know.

   When the clamps go on I move the panel around a bit just to check that its movement isn't hindered.

   That might work well in theory and with small doors.  But if you are gluing up a large door - like one I did the other day that was roughly 16 x 44" there is plenty of opportunity for the panel to bind slightly in the groove such that sliding it around is not so easy.  I know you'll say that like my glue application, my stock preparation must be subpar if along a 38" groove that I want to fit like a piston a slight warp in either the frame or panel makes sliding the panel around difficult. 

   More importantly, the fact that it slides around with the glue still wet, doesn't mean much to me as it's state when dry is what I'm concerned about.

   Any bit of excess glue that might touch the panel corner has never had any real grip.

   It's a long grain to long grain situation, and my wood glue (LV 2002) is quite tenacious even in minute amounts.

   When the glue sets you can check for yourself that the panel still has freedom of movement.

   And if it does not?  Start over with some new wood, eh?  Doesn't seem like a very efficient way to determine precisely how much glue to use.  Might be better to take steps that allow some room for error.

   And thanks for your "it's not a problem if you know what you're doing" answer.  I wonder why people feel compelled to answer questions in this way.  Do you feel superior now? 

1. 
   ring | May 01, 2007 06:12pm | #9

   Wow.Sorry you took offense. You obviously do know what you're doing and I wasn't taking a superior attitude, just saying that I haven't actually experienced the potential problem you raised. Have you?
   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 06:29pm | #10

   Words on a screen are susceptible to being read in ways that they were not intended.  Tones may be perceived that did not exist.  If we were standing around in one of our shops and shooting the breeze about this issue and we each said the same words, but with smiles on our faces and joshing tones in our voices, we'd just laugh at the ribbing. 

   Anyway, I'm not offended.  Insinuations that I don't know how to apply glue notwithstanding. ;-)

   As for whether I've had panels glued in place, I don't believe I have, but I must say that I hate rickety loose panels and therefore try very hard to have a snug fit width-wise in the groove.   This can tend to make for a somewhat bound up fit, especially on larger doors, where pushing the panel around by hand so as to check is not so easy.  I figure expansion pressures can overcome any slight binding, but glue would be problematic.  I was just looking for any tips as I realized on the large cabinet door I recently glued up that I could be having hidden squeeze out that stayed in the groove at the corners.

   Cheers.

1. 
   blewcrowe | May 01, 2007 06:47pm | #15

   Ever use those spaceballs? I have. They work, too.

2. 
   oldusty | May 01, 2007 06:29pm | #11

   Samson ,

               You seem frustrated by Rings reply ,

              David Ring happens to be a true gentleman and 40 year journeyman as well as a successful businessman . He would never say anything to offend you or anyone .

            I have not used the glue you speak of so really have no insight on it but ,, perhaps trying Titebond or another may help you .

          PHD in glue , well after 25 - 30 - 40 years of actual experience Ring , Philip and myself could be considered graduates and even experts on the subject , I still do get some squeeze out on occasion , it happens .

        That does not mean our advice and willingness to comment in the name of helping you should be taken as  condescending , honestly we all take part in this forum to be of help in any way we can to all who may seek answers and help .

      From your question I have sensed your lack of experience , this only make me want to help you even more if you are willing to accept it .

      Try not to be offended by our openness to express ourselves all in the name of sharing with you and others .

    It's true that some people will continue to ask the same question over and over to different people until they get an answer they like . Coming off as though you are an authority or otherwise being sarcastic seems  not a very cordial way to treat folks who are freely sharing from personal and professional experience that can not be bought .

    It's perfectly o.k. to disagree we all do it with each other but don't bite the hands that feed  you .

          regards dusty

      

1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 06:40pm | #13

   Dusty, please see my reply to Ring above.

   You'll notice I thanked Phillip.

   Your intial response was appreciated, though it was only marginally informative in that all it said was "use the right amount of glue."  Perhaps the only and best answer, fine. 

   I could have imagine other answers existing, as per Phillip's response for example.  Or how about this:  Haunch the tenon to fill the groove at both the top and the bottom  - i.e., make the mortise in the middle of the grooved area where the rail and stile meet - and when applying glue, put none on that lower haunch? 

   Lee Valley's cabinetmakers PVA glue is quite good as it has a nice high solids content and good open time.  I recommend it. 

   I appreciate everyone's input and apologize if my response to Ring seemed out of line.  I assure you, my smart a$$ remarks were said in jest.

2. 
   ring | May 01, 2007 09:32pm | #16

   Hey Dusty,

   Underneath my gentlemanly exterior lies an arrogant know-it-all trying to break out!  But thanks for your kind words...

    David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 10:07pm | #17

   Again, and more directly, I'm sorry I misread you, Mr. Ring.

   Instead of reading you as saying: "don't worry too much about it," I mistook you as suggesting that if I were competent, it wouldn't be an issue.  Hence my mild annoyance and smart a$$ remarks. 

   I apologize and hope you will forgive me.  You obviously are fine guy as you have such vehement and ready defenders to attest to your character.  I mean that.  It's impressive you are so well loved on this Board.

   peace.

2. 
   ring | May 02, 2007 06:40am | #19

   Samson,

   As usual, Ray Pine has explained more lucidly than I can the issues in question.  I find I don't really have the patience to type long messages, and so a short message of the type "don't worry about it" can sometimes be misinterpreted.

   More importantly, my hat is off to you for having the courage to back up and say you might have been mistaken.  Let's just have a cyber-handshake and move on. 

   regards,

    David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

3. 
   BobMc | May 01, 2007 06:37pm | #12

   I believe that Ring runs a professional shop (perhaps among other things).  He gave you a polite, professional reply.  Your response is inappropriate.  You did not say that you had a problem, you explained in detail how careful you are, and that you wonder if others take special steps to avoid the potential problem of glue bonding a panel.  Ring's reply said that you needn't worry, that your procedures were just fine.  And you show a total lack of class by excoriating him.

   Shame on you!  Ring took the trouble to reply, and you took the trouble to demonstrate to all readers of this thread that no good deed goes unpunished.  Perhaps, while pursuing your Glue PhD (although Rocket Science was the reference), you might note that in the half-millennium plus of frame and panel construction that no one has bothered to develop a canon of the proper procedure that you so desperately need to solve a potential problem.  Two loose boards sharing a glue dampened kiss at their wedding is a far cry from a constrained panel with an inadvertent drop of squeeze out.  

   Ring answers have saved me hours of work.  But you, instead of assuming the good intentions of anyone that answers your question, have decided to attack.  You have even inserted your own words in a quotation to imply that Ring wrote something that he did not. 

   Shame, shame on you!

   Bob

   We are simple souls who, if tempted to be insulting, would turn aside from such ill found thoughts and just let matters rest. --mufti

1. 
   Samson | May 01, 2007 06:45pm | #14

   Thanks, Bob.  I have already apologized. 

   But you're wrong about this:

   "You have even inserted your own words in a quotation to imply that Ring wrote something that he did not." 

   I cut and pasted his reply, and did not make one single change.   Please compare his message to the blue portions of my reply.  I think you'll find they are identical.

4. 
   joinerswork | May 02, 2007 06:01am | #18

   Sam,

   In gluing up a door frame, I paint glue in the mortise, and on the cheeks and shoulders of the tenons, not the edges of the tenons.  The effective area for glue bond is the cheek-to-mortise-side interface.  Any glue applied to the ends of the mortise and/or to the edges of the tenons is largely ineffective due to the end-grain of the mortise.  Now, squeeze-out from the cheeks on assembly will largely be forced along the cheeks, out the front and back faces of the frame, and will show up as a bead at the shoulder of the tenon.  Excessive squeezeout from a surfeit of glue (as if you had slathered it all over the tenon) might end up at the intersection of the panel groove and tenon edge, as a bead or drop.  The location of this drop will be in the space between the frame and the end of the panel, right at the corner of the panel.  If there were to be an excessive amount of glue, enough to run down the edge of the inside of the frame (as if you had slobbered it over all things), it will tend to run into the space left for swelling of the panel in the groove itself.  A reasonably well-fitting panel will not allow glue to migrate between it and the groove.  Since only epoxy has gap-filling strength, any other glue used to assemble the door will provide only a limited area of bond to resist future swelling and shrinking of the panel.  Even if it did, panel movement would likely crush the edge of the panel (if it swells) or pull off a small sliver (if it shrinks) right at the area of the glue bond, at the edge of the panel, near the bottom of the groove, and not show on the face of the panel at all. 

   This is why David Ring suggested that with reasonable care in using the right amount of glue at assembly, your concern was a non issue. 

   A real concern is panel shrinkage leaving a tell-tale white line on its edge, where stain didn't penetrate.  Pre-staining/prefinishing before assembly has been less than satisfactory for me, as I always seem to ding the panel with a clamp, or leave a gluey thumbprint on the thing that I can't scrape, or sand out without doing even more harm.  Leaving enough slop in the fit of the panel to allow stain penetration, makes for a rattling door.  Perhaps paneled doors should only be built in the winter.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   Samson | May 02, 2007 07:27am | #20

   Thanks, Ray.  All that makes good sense and I appreciate it.