I have just had a practical demonstration that buy USA is not always the best policy. In the past six weeks I have purchased four major pieces of equipent. A SawStop cabinet saw, a Rikon bandsaw, a Grizzley jointer and an Oneida dust collector. The SawStop was made in Taiwan, the Rikon and Grizzley in China and the Oneida in the USA. They all perform extremely well but if I were rating the quaility of the fit and finish I would give the SawStop a 10, the Rikon and Grizzley 8s and the Oneida a 4. The Oneida welds were solid but the beads were rough and stuck out like a sore thumb. In one place, the bead near a mounting hole was so big I had to grind down a washer to get the washer and a nut on a mounting bolt. On the Chinese and Taiwanese products you have to look close to find the welds. The paint on the exterior of the Oneida was so-so. A couple minor chips in the yellow area, then on the black dust barrels one had a large area of 1/8″ bubbles like the gun was sputtering and near that was an area that looked like it had rubbed against something yellow. The interior and under the base of the Oneida product was another story. The paint varied from okay to a fine mist to non-existent. I defy anyone to find a problem in the paint on any of the overseas products. Grizzley, Rikon and SawStop all have attractive, high-quality logos on their products. I thought the Oneida logo was stenciled on both sides of the dust collector and covered with a thin sheet of cellophane to protect it. Since the cellophane was wrinkled and had air bubbles under it I decided to remove it. Mistake. The logo was printed on the cellophane. Not only that, the cellophane was applied crooked and came over the bottom ledge of the housing. I just may rip them off and have a no-name dust collector.
I will buy USA if I can get a quality product at a decent price – but it will not be an automatic. In this case I would go with the Oneida again because it does a great job as a dust collector. I just wish the rest of it were a little better quality.
George
You don’t stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. – Michael Pritchard <!—-><!—-> <!—->
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Replies
George,
A good and timely topic and a great, well thought out post. What we all need to see. Point for point what I would want to see if I were in customer service at any firm.
Why not copy your post, right off this page and send it to Oneida?
If they care about their product they should appreciate it and see what is really going out on the internet from real customers to potential customers. It's constructive criticism and will give them better feedback than any survey card tucked into an owner's manual packet. No harm in that.
I have a couple questions I wanted to ask in a thread that would tie in to some of this but will not here. Don't want to hijack.
bum
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Bum,
I should have mentioned in the original post that I did send an email to Oneida before I posted to Knots. I pointed out all the defects I found plus a few others. I don't feel it is right to complain about something without going back to the source. I will send them the link to this thread tomorrow.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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George,
IMO the whole "Buy American" thing is Un-American. The American auto industry is a prime example of what you can expect if you actually got most people to do it. That industry is still reeling and trying to recover from decades of mismanagement, piss poor engineering and atrocious quality brought on by Americans not even considering anything but an American car. It let the line workers build without any concerns for what kind of product they were producing. It let the management make cutting edge engineering something that only applied to chrome application and sign retirement plans that could do nothing but bankrupt a company forced to do business against a decent competitor.
This country was made great by people buying the best product at the best price. In other words CAPITALISM.
Rob
It's ironic that on the one hand you say this country was made great by capitalism. And on the otherhand that same ideal could be bringing our country down. Isn't capitalism the driving force behind Walmart's phenomenal growth? And in turn the impetus for our countrys race to the bottom? Low prices for the masses and low wages to go along with it. So the people that work there can buy the stuff sold there. This could be good for our country except for the fact that most of the merchandise sold there is made overseas thus creating an outflow of jobs here. Not to mention a drop in quality and durability of products that once lasted a lifetime but have now become disposable commodities. But I guess thats one of the great thing about capitalism; buy low, sell high.
Ted,
I don't think I said anything about capitalism bringing our country down. Or was that your opinion? The way you phrased it was kind of confusing. It is interesting that you bring up Wal-Mart. It's quite popular to bash them these days. You claim that they pay low wages but I doubt that any of their competitors pay a wage that is significantly different than theirs. If they did Wal-Mart's employees would be wise to go seek work there. Before I am told that they can't because Wal-Mart drove them all out of business I would like to remind everyone that Wal-Mart didn't spring into being as a giant company out of thin air.
Wal-Mart is a perfect example of capitalism at work though. If most people felt that they were unfair to their workers or sold junk they probably wouldn't shop there, don't you think?
Rob
Rob,
"If most people felt that they were unfair to their workers or sold junk they probably wouldn't shop there, don't you think?"
I believe that most people shop at Wal-mart (Lowe's, Kmart, Target Home Depot) for the prices and convenience, not to express their approval of their wage or purchasing policies. Many of the items sold by these stores are of less than stellar quality, and that suits their purchasers just fine. -mart shoppers are not in the store looking for the best quality; they are there looking for the cheapest tv or jar of pickles they can find. The idea of buying a tv that will last for 25 yrs is just as alien to -mart shoppers, as a jar of pickles that will not be empty for 25 yrs. Ditto for customer service at point of sale (what is the horsepower of this mower, is it a Briggs or Tecumseh engine?) or afterwards ( the battery on my mower keeps going dead, can you fix it?) Just run it til it breaks, then buy a new one, for $50 less than the last one.
One difficulty with the global economy is the fellow who works in a US plant building mufflers, who buys a mower made in China. The fellow who used to work in the mower factory next door, can't afford a new muffler for his car, because the factory closed, and hello, now the muffler plant is going under.
Another is being played out in the cat and dog food industry now. That wheat gluten looked like a good deal, who knew that it was contaminated, or was it that Chinese farmers were using poison for fertilizer? Where is the accountability, in a worldwide economy? If you buy your spinach at the farmers market, that guy is gonna be careful about what he sells to you, cause he's gonna look you in the eye again next Saturday. If the spinach comes from across the country, and the agribusinessman can get a good deal on some e coliform-ilizer that's really high in nitrogen, heck, there's only gonna be a little of it in the average taco salad, probably nobody will notice anything.
The cat's out of the bag, at any rate. We're in the throes of a sea-change like that which overtook the pit-sawyers when waterpower took their jobs, or the buggywhip braiders, when the automobile replaced the horse and carriage. Manufacturing is leaving this country. What will take its place?
Ray
Ray,
My point about shopping at Wal-Mart was that everyone is free to shop there or not for whatever reason. Are you suggesting that the people who shop there aren't smart enough to understand boycotting what they consider an unfair business, or that they can't tell the difference between quality and junk? I certainly hope you aren't that elitist.
As far as the global economy goes, yes we are there. Would you prefer that we closed the country to imported products? With each major step forward there are people who's jobs are gone and there is always some who think this is going to cause major problems and massive unemployment. You can take this as far back as you want. I prefer the economy we live in now to the subsistence living our ancestors had when they did everything for themselves. I don't really think that anyone that is willing to work for it cannot build a decent life for themselves in the U.S today. No matter what the politicians who depend on the votes of those they have convinced otherwise would have us believe.
Rob
Hi Rob,
No, I don't think they are too dumb to understand boycotting--he11 they don't bother to vote, why would they go out of their way to cut off their own noses (boycot) to spite their face ( not get low, low prices)? What I was trying to say, was that the desire for cheap goods outweighs other considerations. Why? In my opinion, so that the American dream can be fulfilled. The (leased) BMW in the driveway, the (interest only mortgaged) 4,000 sq ft house with plastic fence, woodgrained plastic floors with new flatscreen tv, washer, dryer, dishwasher, particleboard cabinets with corian tops, and plywood and chipboard furniture that can all be thrown away rather than repaired so a clean start can be had in 5 yrs when we redecorate. As far as being elitist, maybe so, insofar as I disagree with the premise that that sort of lifestyle is truly progress. Tacked to the wall of my shop, there is a broken piece of 1/2" particleboard with the label "Quality Furniture by Broyhill". That says it all for me.
The quality of life imposed by a "keeping up with the Joneses " mindset is wearing after a while, as are the conditions of living in a modern up to date setting. I agree with David Pye that much of what is called modern has a dehumanising effect on those who have to see it day in and day out.
I believe it can be argued that the stresses inherent in a subsistance (rural, agrarian) lifestyle are less detrimental to the human psyche than those imposed on a typical 21st century citydweller. Or maybe it was just that the 19th century farmer simultaneously didn't have time for anxiety or depression, and travelled too slowly to indulge in roadrage. Is it only coincidence that those with the free time and wherewithall indulge in their lake houses, golf, gardening and other outdoor activities at every opportunity? Why do we vacation at the beach, or the mountains? What is the attraction for working wood, flyfishing, or other hobbies for so many of us? Can it be that the barrenness of our dayjobs, and the sterility of our modern homes leaves us mentally and physically bored, and wanting the input from the natural world?
I'm not suggesting that we try to turn back the clock. But I don't feel that the best is yet to come, either. Of course, I am a Virginian, and we always feel that the best is yet to be remembered.
Cheers,
Ray
Bravo, Ray. You have stated some thoughtful ideas, and said them very well. I think we're forgetting too much of what is really important, and we need to step back and take inventory on our lives. If we don't, it will become too late.
Ray,I loved your post. You should be writing as well as woodworking.regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
But, shopping there is exactly that: expressing your approval of their wage and purchasing policies. That's wher the price and convenience come from.
You can't say, "oh, I don't like Walmart" and yet buy stuff there. You vote with your money. If you don't like a store, or a product, don't give them your money. That's the way the market works. You have lots of choices for shopping, no one is forcing you to shop there.
First I would like to address the Wal Mart wages. I work at another very well known or the most know department store, for over 8 years, in the 90's, first Wal Mart paid $6.50 per hour for the lowest paid jobs with the chance of advancement and benifits, The store I worked at paid a starting wage of $5.25 and hour and it took for ever to get full time or any benifits. My sister works at Wal Marts and she has gained full time status, and health insurance. I am not a big fan of Wal Marts, but sometimes if it wasn't for there low prices I would not be able to own some of the things I own. I don't need to spend a lot of money on something I am goin to use once a year. And if I could, I would buy american, if you can find it american made.
Second if Toyota is so much better then GM or FORD, why do they keep trying to make there pickup trucks look like Ford Pickups, I have to look twice at most toyota pickups to see that they are not a Ford. And yes there are times we should be doing a better job then some usa workers do, but no country is perfect.
And as far as unions, if the companies would have been fair with there employees in the first place, there never would have been unions, and the same goes for OSHA.
Thank you for giving me the chance to speak my peace
Bill G.
Dear Bill,
You wrote: "Second if Toyota is so much better then GM or FORD, why do they keep trying to make there pickup trucks look like Ford Pickups, I have to look twice at most toyota pickups to see that they are not a Ford. And yes there are times we should be doing a better job then some usa workers do, but no country is perfect." I would like to comment on your statement.1) Toyota Vs. Ford / GM. I decided to try Toyota after seeing both of my Ford trucks, in the same garage, side by side, both with the rear ends out of them. One truck had 75K on it, the other had well over 100K. That was after a series of general repairs. My Toyota truck, on the other hand has 160K on it with NO problems. Zero. Tires, oil & brakes. That's it. My Fords were both built in Canada, the Toyota was built in the US. So who is supporting American workers? They may look like Fords, but they aren't Fords.2) Unions and Osha have both pretty much outlived their usefulness. The market that created unions is now driving them under as they are unwilling to compete. Osha has its place, but not like the old days. 3) Buy American? Sure, if its justified. If its an equal or better product, then I am all for it. I will not, however, reward an American company, with my dollars for an inferior product. Look at how the US Auto manufacturers changed in the 1980's. That was a result of competition, not blind support for an industry that doesn't deserve it.Best,John
A few observations.
First off anyone that thinks that losing all the big three and the related business is not going to effect this country, well mark my words and we will see who is right in a few more years. I think this will lead to a big dip in the already unstable economy. But I guess we will have to wait and see who is right.
As for competing with the other companies. It is not a level playing field. For many reason (to many to go into here) But you can not compete when you have differnent cost of living and levels of health care cost just to name two.
As for the pay of the upper management being only 4 to 8 times that of the average worker in Japan I don't buy that. I have seen the cost of living in Japan and those large homes (condos, apartments, what ever they are over their) I have trouble buying this. When it cost tens of thousands of dollars to join a golf club you are telling me that management is only making 4 times the guy on the line? Right. Sure they are.
Also keep in mind that a lot of the big 3s problems are self inflicted but some of them are bad PR and this is not their fault. I have seen a local (Ann Arbor Mich) car magazine jump all over a GM vehicle that had to have a switch fixed on a window and in the next issue say that the problem with the Porsche that caused the top to get stuck half way up (or down) 3 times in 6 months was nothing big. Try putting a top down on a car in the middle of no place and having it stick, Then drive to the "Local" Porsche shop at 25 miles an hour. I will see you thier in a few days.Add in that in that (or another mag I miss remember) they dropped the transmission on a 6 month old car (same car type, and make) out the bottom and that it would have cost them over 5 grand if they were not a magazine and still this is a "Great" car. We have a bias in this country and in the press.
A co worker bought a brand new VW the same week I picked up a Grand Am. I paid less then him and in the first year he was in the shop 4 times with a back door that would not close (once it all but fell off the car and he had to have it towed in) and was in for engine repair 4 times. I was in for an oil change. But he insists to this day that his car was a better deal. He got rid of his car at 3 years and less then 50K miles because he had had it with the car, I still have mine at 70K and 5 years and the car has never been in the shop for anything other then oil and breaks (Ok the breaks suck I will concede that) But I am sure that the VW was the better car.
So not ALL non Big three cars are great and not all Big 3 cars suck.
As for a service economy well, good luck with that, but when you loss 100,000 jobs at 50K a year and replace them with Jobs at wall mart and flipping burgers you are in trouble. The housing market is imploding and we are on a downward slide. Of course the oil companies sucking the profit off is not helping.
I guess we will have to sit back and see what happens but I think we are going to get much worse before it gets better.
I dont see how a country of 300 million can try to compete against the rest of the world on an even feild when we have a much higher standard of living then most of the rest of the world.
By they way should this not be in the cafe?
Doug Meyer
My my. hasn’t this thread steered up opinions and strong feelings.
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The point is; there is room for argument on all sides. The position one takes is proportionate to his or her social standing. Collect a number of painting artist and the lot cannot possibly lay down paint on the same canvas and be happy with the final results.
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The –mart shopper shops there because it’s a comfortable arena, both in terms of environment and cost of goods, regardless of quality. The -Marcus shopper won’t be caught dead at –Mart for the same reasons. One drives the car he can afford; quality and bells and whistles are directly proportionate to the thickness of the wallet. We can’t all afford caviar. The automobile market went overseas because we were willing to pay for quality the domestic market chose to ignore. The same is true of any market. We have moved into a global environment where cost and value has become invisible when considering domestic or foreign. Are Japanese car truly foreign??? Service is the order of the day, offer it and the people will come.
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The unions started out with the good of the worker in mind, and that was a good thing. Unfortunately, greed and self-centeredness has killed the union. The same attitude will kill any enterprise.
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Everybody takes a seat; there will always be a market for high and low quality in terms of goods and services. Some will tolerate the ride, some will fall off.
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Many businesses, in time, will fail because of greed and the willingness to take shortcuts. I have no sympathy for them. Too often I have seen people, a company’s first resource, mistreated and put out to pasture for the sake of greed and advancement.
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There are valid arguments for every scenario. Where on the canvas will you lay down your paint?
You probably won't agree with me, But I haven't had problems with my american cars (mostly trucks), I just get tired of bein called unpatriotic, because I don't believe and back Bush on the War, and then watch them same people drive away in there toyotas, and honda's and many other forgein cars. And yes I know most ford trucks are made in canada, I live in Michigan, and would much rather give my money to help canada, then to japan or the other forgien automakers. Canada buys a lot of US products from us, and they are our best friends, when it comes to relations with other countries
well I had a 78 ford with 250,000 miles and I did a rebuild on the engine that was all I did. and as far as toyota bein built here, you may be right, but the profit still goes to japan. I didn't write my post to piss anyone off. It is just the way I feel. As far as american made products I do believe they are built better, alot of the time they are over priced, and out of my reach. And my point was also the point that you can't hardly find products made in america. Hey guy thanks for replying to my post, I really appreicate it. I still believe in america, and hope that someday it will come back to bein the country it use to be.
Thanks again
Bill G.
<<< ...."as far as toyota bein built here, you may be right, but the profit still goes to japan." >>>Not exactly.If you want to participate in Toyota profits, you can buy their stock:http://tinyurl.com/ypk9dg********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Just as appoint of interest, <!----><!----><!---->Toyota<!----><!----> buys all of the engines for the Camery that is built in <!----><!---->Georgetown<!----> <!---->KY<!----><!----> from <!----><!---->Japan<!----><!---->. They pay about $5600.00 per engine, a good fair market value would be under a grand. That is how you move profits offshore in the form of “cost”. Not a bad gig, maybe GM can build cars in <!----><!---->China<!----><!----> with US made drive trains that are over priced….. naaa, they ain’t that smart.
But still in the end, what is ever left after, stock dividends have been paid, and there is nothing left then, net profit for the company, it goes to Japan, I think we have had the choice to but stock from forgien companies for a long time, at least from the countries that allowed it. I will again say that people that drive forgein cars, shouldn't be out there, callin other people unamerican, or unpatriotic, which was my point in the first place. And I just got down watching Motor Week, on the tele, and you hear alot about the quality and performance of the cars made over seas. Well after watching them showing the quality and performance of a Valvo all wheel drive V8, all I can say is that is should be a great car at a price of $46,000 USD.
Zuk,
Little profit need be made on each foriegn car sold here. They make their profit on the 40% of parts they import from their parent company. The parent company makes all the profit they need on those parts and all they need do at this point is deal with their own country..
and to your not exactly, after all dividends and other cost are paid, the money goes to japan, and as far as buying stock, as if I even could, I would buy stock in an american company, not from a company in a country that tried to destroy us.
Bill
Profits may go to Japan, but taxes go to the USA and the American auto workers do the work and take home the pay check. It is not all that bad.
JL
jeanlou,
Profits are taxed? That would be fine if indeed international companies all played by the same rule book.. Extremely easy to shift costs back and forth. Impossible to detect. Over charge on a homegrown piece say a turnsignal switch made in Japan as well as other pieces and when the car is sold the profits are at a minimum.. Government can't get tough because they don't want to lose good paying jobs,, local cities etc. often provided tax free zones, land and other incentives to attract factories with their high paying jobs.
This bizarre turn of events means that the workers pay for the factory and it's attending costs while the company reaps a windfall of profits due to incentives offered.
Frenchy
I am pretty sure that Toyota is a good corporate citizen...if they are fudging the books they can not be doing it anymore than the upstanding American and Canadian companies that avoid taxes and screw the shareholders (remember Enron?). The government perks to set up business in the USA (or Canada) applies to ALL companies, and not only the Japanese auto makers.
I regularly see advertising, directed at Canadian companies, enticing them to set up shop in the USA. State governments have on-going programs to try and have established companies in the USA move to their state, with amazing incentives in the packages that they are offering.
The workers building the companies with their wages? Frenchy, please!
I agree that the people working in the companies of this world have a direct influence on the bottom line of the companies and the companies' health...via their productivity (or lack of). If the company pays a fair wage, and the auto makers pay a VERY fair wage, what is your point? The people who chose to work for an employer, rather than set up their own business, are not looking for an equal partnership...simply a fair wage.
I know that there are many employers on the North American continent that are unfair to the working people, as there are also many that are fair. This, however, has nothing to do with Toyota producing vehicles in the USA and Canada, where the UAW and others takes care of their own quite nicely, thank you very much (some to the detriment of the very members they claim to be protecting). JL
PS I was raised with the following belief, which I carried forward into my professional life. ..an hour's pay for an hour's work. This, sadly, is becoming harder to find these days, as people fool themselves into believing and insist that they deserve a full day's pay for half a day's work. It will be the reason for the eventual downfall of our North American economy.
Jeanlou,
Throughout time some people have insisted on short changing their employers. giving less than their best efforts and demanding as much as they can..
Didn't just happen, won't ever stop.
However any corporation owes it's first allegiances to headquarters. Is Toyota less guilty than GM? Only a handful of people will ever really know.. But it is absolutely true that GM executives at least pay their income tax in America while the Toyota executives pay it in Japan..
Since the paycheck of GM bigshots is so much bigger than the paycheck of Toyota bigshots I would say that America does slightly better when GM prospers than when Toyota prospers. (I'd need to see both tax returns to give absolute statements)
Frenchy
It is never the "big shot executives" that pay the biggest piece of tax money to the government, it is the everyday worker. The middle class and the working poor are the hardest hit when it comes to paying taxes and they are the ones that fill the majority of the government's coffers. Toyota's execs, those who are Japanese nationals, don't even make a dent in the grand scheme of things. JL
jeanlou,
I understand that completely! the middle class more than carries it's share of the tax burden. While as a percentage of their income the wealthy pay much less.
However as some nameless politician said, "A million here and amillion there and pretty soon we have a whole lot of money"..
"While as a percentage of their income the wealthy pay much less."Everyone gets to deduct from their gross income but IMO, not enough do much about it. Sure, a lot go to H & R Block to have their taxes done but deducting interest paid on credit card debt and home equity loans and then complaining that the government spends too much is a huge pile of crap. People need to figure out that the IRS sets the rules for tax time but not enough learn enough about how to 'Play Their Game" to do anything about it. They just sit there, complain and take it in the shorts. We vote the politicians in but don't watch them closely enough to hold them accountable and get rid of them fast enough. The 'Middle Class' is a very large number of people but the wealthiest 2% pay more than 51% of the tax burden. Part of the problem with the middle class is that they want the rich guy to pay their way, while they go azzhole and applecart in debt trying to keep up with the Jones's. If someone wants to climb the ladder, they need to get started on their own instead of just asking for help before they begin. Too many people complain about not having what they want and say they don't have time to take a class to learn something that would make them more useful, which would earn a raise. Too many want a raise just for working at one job for 25 years instead of a raise based on the quality/quantity/efficiency of their work. Too many want to blame someone else for their own problems. If someone makes a lot of money, it's OK. If someone makes very little, that's OK, too. The world won't stop because of it. Sour grapes and jealousy over money and possessions is very small-minded. A poor person is in no way entitled to receive anything from a rich person but as a community, it's definitely better to help others. Part of the problem with this is that too many who receive help squander it. Each person has their own life- the rich person having a lot is their life, the poor person having very little is theirs. What each does with what they get is what counts. If a rich person wants to help others, it makes them better than a rich person who gets nekkid and rolls around in bed with their money. What do you call a person who makes little but drinks, smokes, buys lottery tickets and expensive food (if they cook) or always eats fast food?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfigh,
I keep hearing that the top 2% pay 51% of the taxes (your numbers) have you ever checked the tax forms of the extremely rich to verify that?
Plus there is the fact that lottery winners for example (or rap stars or pro sports players etc.) have no way of "hidding" income while the extremely wealthy (top 5% of net worth) have all sorts of legal ways to avoid exposing income to taxes..
Nobody seems to dispute the fact that the wealthest people have been getting richer. In a fair tax system (assuming no changes) the rich stay rich, the middle class stays where they are while the poor are the least burdened since they have the least to protect.
That is not the way the currant tax system is working..
The middle class carries an unfair portion of this countries obligation.
OTOH, according to the post after your reply to me, you aren't exactly going out of your way to pay a lot of taxes, either. What you really just said reinforces my point. The rules are set by the government and you're playing along, according to their rules. This keeps you from paying what your income bracket normally would because you use the tax code to your advantage. If more people in the middle income bracket would do the same thing, the country would be screwed until the next year, when they could make the necessary changes to the code. I'm having a hard time taking your argument seriously when you aren't paying much in taxes, even though you say you're in the middle bracket. You're doing exactly what the rich do to hold onto their money, yet you want them to pay more. You can't have it both ways.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfigh,
Exactly! The rules are there, you simply need someone to guide you thru them and you need to do the required money management in order to minmize your tax bill. Frankly I'm not sure everybody would be willing to be as disciplined as I am with regard to money management.. Maybe that's why I am able to live where I do while others with incomes near mine pay a far higher percentage of their income in taxes.
But I absolutely agree that the rich take advantage of every single loophole available to them and thus avoid paying what should be their fair share of taxes.
In a perfect world taxes would be based not on income but on spending. That would enhance the savings rate, a good thing for the economy. While totally eliminating the need for individual income taxes.. All business taxes would also be done away with also, except for the reporting and payment of any sales. Sell a hundred thousand dollar house and Uncle Sugar gets 5% or whatever the national sales tax would be.. The Lumberyard sells you a package to build that house that costs $50,000 and they pay their 5% You can make as much profit or as little profit as you want (or the market dictates) and all you pay for is what you sell. Don't feel like paying any taxes? Don't buy anything.. Want to own stuff? You'll pay taxes on it.. No exceptions!
They call it 'Income Tax' fro a reason. Define 'fair share'. You want the "rich" to pay their 'fair share' but you don't want to pay yours. Huh?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
So you would rather have an income tax than a spending tax?
As for paying my fair share, according to the rules I do.. maybe the rules should be changed, Huh?
Frenchy
I am not in that league. I don't count in millions. In fact I get dizzy even thinking about it. I come from the "a penny saved is a penny earned" school. :-) JL
Edited 4/8/2007 12:32 pm ET by jeanlou
frenchy - I thought he meant the wages of US workers is taxed, as well as the incomce of all the service providers. Interesting. Maybe foreign ownership tilts the equation in favor of unions. The higher the wages of the workers, the more money stays in the US and US tax coffers.[after reading the whole string]
I guess this is kinda outta left field, after so many interventionizing others messages.
Edited 4/8/2007 3:34 am ET by bakesale1
bakesale1
Well foriegn ownership sure doesn't benefit unions. By paying union wages they avoid union involvement.
I am a very late comer to this conversation as well... I will say I am for the war... Most of the military I know who have been there and do make the sacrifices on a most personal level are for it. I fear we are going to watch a re-Vietnamization... Then we will spend the next 30 years wondering why we got our tails kicked by a bunch of Iran supported back water terrorists and politically we wont have the will to do the right thing in the future. This is not the point I was going to make. I too think Unions had their place and think that time is past... we have regulated things governmentally to the point that their need is greatly diminished. Here is where we must realize that it has not been and is not fair. I am all for free markets. However if you have been to Japan or Korea you will find that there are no foreign autos there. (Relatively) Those countries while they export the crap out of their vehicles... have a 100% tariff on our vehicles. I lived all over the place in Korea 15 years ago... did not see one American pick up the entire time. The Mercury Sable was the only popular american car over there and there was so much prestige attatched to that particular car that it would be like pulling up in a mercedes stretched limo here. Open markets mean just that... open. The way Japan moved into consumer electronics is the government subsidized the making and selling of TVs in the late 60s and early 70s and did it for about 5 years till they drove the American manufacturers out of business. Then they pulled the subsidies. The sucky thing about that is at that time we were still sending aid to Japan to get them on their feet... (late 50s to early 70s they did this in many areas) That was our taxes out competing our workers. Now the upside of this is our economy has become one where we dont have so much blue collar and we work more with our minds... We can out think and out innovate any country out there. What we have to crack down on with an iron fist before it is too late is protecting our intellectual property. If I worked in the state department I would say to Georgia or China... where ever... I am walking down to the market. If I see one pirate copy of an American developed piece of software or a movie or patented piece of machinery... Trade stops till you fix it. Drew
Your absollutly right, but I would still prefer to see them wages and taxes go to american companies, part of my point was that I didn't like bein called unamerican or unpatriotic because I disagree with the war, as I watch them drive off in there forgien car.
Zuk
Politics aside, every living being on this earth has the right to disagree with war. JL
Thank You for your support of my right not to like the war
You think its bad for GM and Ford now, wait till the chinese get here in full force.
The average wage including benefits for a union employee right now for GM and Ford is $27.00 per hour.
The average wage including benefits for a chinese employee is .94 cents.
The part that bothers me is that I supply GM and Ford with product and when I go into the plants, I want to throw up. I have never seen so many people sleeping on the job in my life. GM and Ford can't do a thing about it. Very sad.
I am not trying to down anyone, just stating some facts. It's very sad.
Hey john
I forgot to address your statement about unions, I was a Teamster truck driver for about 20 years and a lot of the things that they did I didn't like, But I have worked for other companies that weren''t unionize and you had no say what so ever about your job, or life, The concept of unions is good, its the people that run them that are bad. I don't really believe unions are the down fall of the auto industry, as much as the price of health care, and prescription drugs, that make it hard for the usa auto companies to compete with forgein companys that come from places that have National Health care and don't have to pay all that outrageist money to insurance companies. As far as osha, they will always be here. just like the unions they have good and bad points, and yes they have overreached themselfs at times.
thanks again Bill G.
Dear Bill,
I think that I mentioned that my Dad was a Union man. They did some good for him, some bad. The unions as, I see it, were good at getting a person a reasonable wage and benefits, but once they accomplished that, became self serving. The thing that I saw my father struggle with was that the unions would protect the people who should of been fired. As a "Sea Bee", he was all about "getting the job done", not keeping a job, just to keep it. The auto companies troubles are not all union, but they have been a part of it. This article: http://www.newratings.com/analyst_news/article_1507926.html Is about how Ford lost over 12 Billion Dollars in 06 and yet felt it appropriate to compensate the chief executive, who held the position for all of four months, a shade over 28 million.........plus an 18.5 million dollar "bonus"................................ I have no sympathy for them. If I were an employee, I would quit and go move and work for some "real" company. Not a bad joke of white collar theft.Best,John
C'mon, be serious.
Many, if not most of the people who shop at the X Mart's do so because THEY HAVE NO CHOICE, it's what they can afford. To be sure some shop there to 'get a deal' but for most of X Marts customers, it's the only place where they can afford to do business, period. To believe EVERYBODY shops there by choice, is to ignore the facts of life in America today. Even with dual earner families, wages (and benefits) are declining dramatically in this country as the manufacturing based economy is replaced by the serviced based economy. Credit debt is at an all time high and is a crisis waiting to play out. Far too many have not planned for retirement and have no resources to retire on, or find their retirement plans gutted. Health care is outrageously expensive and so many have health problems. Given these realities, the only choices many families have are to shop at X Mart or go without. What choice do you think they're going to exercise?
Jeff
Yes, capitolism is a mixed bag.
Take handheld power tools. Seemingly ALL the major tool manufacturers in the US have deveolped tools around what customes of LOWES want. Right now, that's the biggest demand there is, so that's where the tools are optimized to sell. This means features and quality that are not quite good enough for the fine woodworker much of the time. But wait! Germany to the rescue. It seems that a foreign market has recognized the need for tools that do not sacrifice quality. The cost a LOT more than what you can get at Lowes, but for most of us, they're worth it because they do exactly what we want them to do all the time and for a LONG time. So on one hand, you have our american manufacturers who have chosen (via the natural demand of capitolism) to make cheaper products for the value minded hobbiest. But on the other hand the global market has provided a fine solution for the rest of us. Why, in general, do US companies produce mid-range and even cheap products as a rule?
It's because that's what most of the shoppers buy! As for wal-mart, I don't shop there... ever. Same goes for any other large corperation so long as I can find a better option. This leads me to topic #2. Service.
There is typically no one in Wal-Mart, Lowes, True Value, etc etc who knows ANYTHING about the products that a professional might want, even if they DO carry them.
And that's assuming you can even FIND someone willing to talk to you. Smaller business, however, survives on providing excellent advise and sevice to the customer. 99% of the time, this saves so much time that it also saves money over the
big rock bottom warehouse. Thankfully, as woodworkers, we have a lot of excellent companies online and sometimes locally who know exactly what we want. And they can save us time and money by helping us get it right the first time. hence, the ultimate beauty of capitolism... If there is someone to buy it, there will inevitably be someone to make it. We just have to know where to look.
Wal-mart can hardly be called an American company anymore; haveing locations found all over the world. I saw one in Mexico many years ago and almost lost my mind. And it's the capitalistic thought about providing cheap goods to the masses for why USA products suck. ex. cars, power tools, politicians.
AMEN!John
I guess the folks at Oneida don't tkae much concern in the finish of their products. On the otherhand most people don't look that close at the details on said unit. Even though the DC in our shop is huge and occupies a big footprint I seldom pay much attention to it unless I'm emptying the dust bucket. Our tablesaw by comparison is used several imes a day and any flaw in manufacturing would stare me in the face everytime I walked up to it and I'm sure the manufacturer takes this into account when designing in tolerances.
At one time, Americans bought American goods because they were the best, plain and simple. But, during the 70's (for those of us who were there) people began buying Japanese cars in ever increasing numbers. Why? BECAUSE THEY WERE BETTER THAN WHAT AMERICAN MANUFACTURERS WERE BUILDING! People have the right to demand quality goods, and they will almost always exercise that right. The fact is that right now many machine tools are being made offshore because the manufacturers there are filling a need that American manufacturers are not, for whatever reason. We have the right to choose what we want to buy, and I will always choose the best machine I can get for the money.
"during the 70's" I graduated Bayonne High School in June of 70, about a 10 minute drive away there was a HUGE GM plant and because their dads,uncles etc. had jobs there a good number of my classmates had the in to get them too,at starting wages and benefits that left most of the rest of us in their dust. Almost to a man they would boast not how much or how well they could do the job,it was the TOTAL opposite.One night I listened to a guy go on about how he was p'd at his boss for getting on his case for slacking way too much(which he was proud of)so he got back. His job,get this, was to put the windshield wipers on Caddys. That day he put them on but didn't tighten them. "Wait'll them put their wipers on for the first time they'll go flying away!ha ha...".He was on a roll going on about other guys doing the same with whatever part(s) they were responsible for.They were proud of that stuff. Like that was nutin' know what I did?. Because of the union it was almost impossible to fire these guys. That plant is still there closed and locked tight as can be. A real dust collector. It'll probably wind up as condos. So where are caddys being made now. Should I be sad about those guys and their families? Families yes,but those guys? I really don't know what to feel.
"Because of the union it was almost impossible to fire these guys."<!----><!----><!---->
No, because of the union these guys had good paying jobs in a relatively safe environment. Because of the union, management couldn't arbitrarily dismiss a worker to make room for a son or daughter. These guys violated the trust given them. Almost impossible is not the same as impossible. Management signed the union contracts. Management was too busy making money (for itself) to make quality cars, or to make a case about employee negligence. <!----><!---->
Some years ago, an Assistant Principal told me that the school couldn't fire an incompetent high school teacher because of the union. I fetched a copy of the contract, read and understood it, and filed a complaint about the manager (vice principal) that told complaining parents that the school could do nothing about the teacher. Both were gone in a year. Parents had complained about that teacher for years. Management protected the teacher (less paperwork, fewer meetings) by blaming the union. <!----><!---->
Union labor probably helped make the <!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!----> and its middle-class. Your buddies were jerks. See for instance the effect on worker safety: http://www.drake.edu/cbpa/econ/boal/acc.pdf<!----><!---->
ABSTRACT: This study estimates the effect of unionism on accidents in early twentieth century coal mines using two datasets—a state-level dataset where unionism is measured by membership, and a mine-level dataset where unionism is measured by contract coverage. In both datasets, unionism apparently lowered fatalities by about 40 percent. The union effect is far more significant—economically and statistically—than safety laws and or allegedly dangerous mining techniques. Much of the union effect appears to have operated at the mine level, perhaps by protecting miners who refused to work in unsafe places, but a state-level effect is evident, too.<!----><!---->
I find it interesting that in the hallowed sanctuaries of capitalism, money capital is considered sacred, and we praise the priests who take the most, who charge and manipulate to extract the most profit from their product, but we feel that workers, who sole resource is their labor, should not be able to sell at the highest price possible. Those workers can best sell their labor by joining with other workers, sort of the "economy of scale" touted whenever mega-corporations gobble up smaller companies, and then terminate the workers in the smaller company. Modern capitalists probably have as much in common with Adam Smith as pedophile priests have with Jesus. I doubt whether Adam Smith could have foreseen how completely companies could monopolize and control a market. I doubt he could have foreseen how companies could use arbitrage to control and cripple a market--read Enron. Or, how corporations could build such huge cash reserves that they could suppress innovation and progress indefinitely--or until the oil runs out. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Dear Bob,
I am the son of an old time "Union" man and IMHO the "Unions" had their place and their time has gone. I am in the private home building business and although the "bottom line" is the "bottom line", if we are not producing a quality product, it won't sell, period. We are non-union and will gladly pay more for the right person, but are under no obligation to keep the deadwood. I think that is true of free markets. On a more global issue, lets face facts: We are NOT running out of oil. We just aren't. Not even close. If that was true, oil prices would be MUCH higher than they are now and no would need legislation to change the market. I barely made it out of High School and I can see that. If the predictors of "gloom & doom" have something in common, it is that they have been wrong, virtually everytime, for the last forty years. Best,John
Jmartinsky,
When the Unions had 35% of the population America's economy was stronger than it's ever been. Today the union workers comprise 7% of the population and instead of keeping everybodies wages in line with managements they are despirately holding onto what they have.. (survival mode)
Meanwhile management earns up to 4000 times what the worker on the line does.. (In Europe it's 9 to 15 times maximum and in Japan it's 4 to 8 times maximum.)
That unfair disparity prevents the company from being really successful. Management is rewarded based not on long term growth but this quarters earnings.. An absolute sure way to ruin a good business..
As GM goes so does the whole economy..
Dear Frenchy,
I think that the days of "As GM goes, so goes the country" are long gone. GM is dying. It is dying for the reasons that everyone here has stated. I say let it die. If its management is so incompetent that it can't simply follow the Toyota model, then they don't deserve to be in business. About the only reason to keep them in business would be the manufacturing capacity in time of war, but even then, as GM closes plants in the US, Toyota and others open them, so I don't see any capacity being lost.
The US economy is booming, the best indicator of that are the unemployment figures. Yeah, I know, the world is coming to an end, and its all Bush's fault, but facts are facts, under 5 percent unemployment. We live wealthier than our parents and grandparents. Cable TV, electricity, two cars, clothes, too much food, the list goes on and on.
The unions have pretty much put themselves out of business as has GM. Let them go under. I don't think that they will be missed.Best,John
Thank you for your response John,
I can think of several reasons not to let GM and others go under..
First the loss of jobs would destabilise the economy.. While little of GM's profit comes from automoble manufacturing, it is a sizeable slice of the economy.
Second as you said it's ability to manufacture cars here puts foriegn governments in competition with American government. The price you and others pay for cars is held down because GM and others fight for a slice of the market.. remove 50% of the competition and they can move assembly back to their own countries and provide good income for their citizens. Sure the boat ride will increase the cost of their cars but without GM to compete against that won't matter.
Third other factors enter into this.. the Dollar / Yen ratio, Strength of American economy, middle class income, secondary markets. etc. etc. etc.
As for Bush, that's a political discussion. The last election pretty much resolved much of the debate and his approval ratings should solve the rest.. When not even loyal republicans stand behind himit should say a great deal.
Dear Frenchy,
You bring up a good point about competition. Perhaps I should expand on my previous statement. I have no desire for GM to go away. I was brought up on Chevy's and was sad to make the break to Ford in the late 80's when it was apparent that GM wasn't cutting it. Right now I own a Toyota and a Honda, not out of any loyalty to either company, they simply provide a better product right now. American companies will not improve until they have been hurt enough to change. That much is apparent. That pain is a necessity in a healthy economy. That is the driver of change and innovation. The American companies have the ability, but they have gotten lazy. They became more concerned about providing jobs than providing a product. A nice idea, but a recipe for disaster as we are seeing now. Toyota is the acknowledged leader of the automotive world right now. They will surpass GM shortly and that is a fact. They didn't get that way by worrying about jobs, or manager's salaries. They got that way by focusing on its product. Now the American companies have a choice, change or die. That is the reality, as it should be. None of these companies have any God given right to be in business. They know what to do, it is just a matter of if they have the guts to do it. If they are unwilling to compete, then I think they should go under. Other companies will take up the slack. Competition is what makes us strong, not comfort.
As to our President, he is not my favorite, but he sure is a lot better than anything the Dems came up with. His tax cuts have fueled this economy and pulled us out of the Clinton recession. There has been NO attacks in this country since 9/11, so he is doing a lot right. Now if he would close the border with Mexico and cut some spending, we would be getting somewhere.............Best,John
Edited 4/4/2007 8:59 pm ET by Jmartinsky
Jmartinsky
The trouble with American companies can be traced to the republican party.
I'm sorry but that's true. Now there is nothing inherertly wrong with Republicans many are hard working civil servants who really attempt to do the best for the country as they see fit.
Differances are good. A democracy needs them to flourish.
However the currant political system is one where a handful of extremely rich people can influance the shape of the country. It's called access.. You and I can't get in to a president while the wealthy who paid for the person to run for offfice in the first place can. If Some young politicain wants to run for president he doesn't go door to door begging for 5 or 10 dollars per person untill he gets enough, instead he goes to the rich and gets them to donate a few million.. In exchange that rich person gets to "suggest" to the candidate rules and laws he'd like to see passed.
While there is nothing in the democratic party that prevents them from doing the same thing, since they are currantly out of power and don't have the same access to funds.. They then are required to do a version of the door to door fund raising..
That makes their campaign seem disjointed, since those funds come from a variety of sources with differing goals.. The real differance is the focus of each party is differant since the source of funds comes from those with differant goals. IF your goal is to get personally richer then the republican party reflects your goals the best. If your goal is to have the whole country do better then the democratic party is a better fit..
I've heard the arguements about trickle down economics and while that sounds wonderful, in practice little trickles down.. The rich have gotten richer while the middle class and poor have either lost ground or remained the same (adjusted for inflation)..
It is absolutely true that a rising tide raises all boats.. If the rich want simply to do better they should accept policies that raise the tide for all Americans rather than add to the burden of the middle class. It's the middle class that buys the cars refrigerators and houses. While a few extremely wealthy do buy mansions, often as not it's in places like the south of France or the Carribean. rather Omaha Nebraska or Fort Wayne Indiana.
In case you think That I'm not speaking the trueth please note that the top 5% of income earners have gained in their holdings of wealth while those of us who are average income (less than $400,000 per year) have lost ground while increasing our debt load..
Now I'm not suggesting that you are disloyal to your party! Rather that it's time we the people take back our government from the fat cats.. Next election vote the rascals out.. Any politicain that has been in office for more than two terms needs to be replaced.. If it's a democrat vote for a republican, if it's a republican vote for a democrat..
The wealthy hate investments that don't pay off.. Pretty soon we'll take back elections and instead of a election cycle costing a billion dollars it will be reduced to more middle class friendly numbers.
I agree with what you wrote 100%
Bill G.
Dear French,
When you wrote "The trouble with American companies can be traced to the republican party" and "However the currant political system is one where a handful of extremely rich people can influance the shape of the country.", I'm sure that the democratic party, who has done ???? for people, (Oh they DID raise taxes!) has plenty of access. The "common folk" like Al Gore, the Clintons, and Barbara Striesand, are just a phone call away, I'm sure. For the record, I am a conservative, who is registered Republican. I have NO loyalty to the Republican when they move away from conservative principles. If a Democrat, or Libertarian was all about cutting taxes, smaller government, and getting the government out of the way, I would vote for them. Now, the last time I looked, the Democrats house the House & Senate. They have ALL the funds. They got there because the Republicans abandoned what got them voted in. They became the Democrats. Big spenders, Pork and more pork, liberal social policies. So we booted them out. Good riddance. The Democrats ran on a platform of what? "We are not Republicans". No policies, no ideas, exactly what we are seeing now. Some folks think that the "Dems" will bring the soldiers home. No they won't, at least not yet. They could of cut off the funding months ago and yet have not. They MIGHT, in the future, like closer to the 08 elections. Playing politics with blood??? Not so good. Now, just to bring this back to reality for a minute. I don't buy for a second that the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer". Now way. My grand mother used to walk along the railroad tracks, as a little girl, picking up coal that bounced off the trains, so that they could have some heat that night. That was "poor" in the 1920's. "Poor" in 2007, is one, maybe two cars, cable TV, refrigerators, microwave, electricity, heat, bla, bla, bla. We have forgotten what "poor" is.I doubt that we will agree on any or all this, and that is good, that is what keeps things interesting. My experience has been that if I worked hard, no matter who was in office, I will succeed. Sometimes, it takes longer to reach my goals, because of who is in office, but I will get there. They will not stop me. My destiny is not tied to any political party, it is on me, they way it should be. I do not wait for things to "trickle down", I go and get it. Peoples "debt loads" are their own faults, for the most part. Spend less, its not too hard. Ok, I have to go to work now.Best,John
Thank You John,
I appreciate your positive response to my posts,, too often these posts deteriorate into your party suxs kind of discussion..
I'm glad this hasn't..
Let me discuss taxes with you for a while..
Who likes to pay taxes? I know of no democrat who enjoys it. On the other hand we all know what happens when we don't pay our bills, interst is added, penalties accrue and the cost of delaying paying your bills is greater and greater.. sooner or later you lose stuff, important stuff.
Government is no differant.. I'd like to compliment Bush here Not jr. his father. His father recognizing the debt we'd acquired during the Reagan administration and he was forced to break his promise to Americans, You know the one, "read my lips no new taxes" That took a great amount of courage and he deserved to be reelected simply for that. Winning the first Gulf war as cheaply as he did (both in lives lost and dollar cost) also really earned him reelection..
When he raised taxes, he set America up for her great run of prosperity. The Taxes Clinton added sweetened the pot..
America became a safe secure way for foriegners to invest In our economy and even if the company they selected didn't grow, the strength of the dollar to other currancys still made it a sound investment. During the Clinton administration, America balanced her budget and evan reported a surplus for the first time in 40 years..
Meanwhile the stock market grew and grew topping out near 12,000. Now the market doesn't care what party is in power, all they care about is return on investment..
Growth is good and feeds more growth.. If you note the economy slowed as the election approached. Long before 9/11 It's not pure coincidence that it started to slow as Bush (jr) with his unbalanced tax cuts gained in the poles.. Foriegners no longer Saw America as safe, they began to see it as risky.. They pulled from the markets which made the market softer. Following election with each mistake Bush Jr made the market got softer and softer..
Yes 9/11 damaged the economy but worse events occured during the Clinton administration and the market just shrugged and moved on..
Adjusted for inflation the market still hasn't recovered..
OK I asked who likes to pay taxes? Who likes to pay bills? What happens if bills aren't paid? About the same things that are happening right now. How much did a barrel of oil cost during the Clinton administration? What does a barrel cost today? You haven't had a pay raise in at least 7 years (NOT ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION) AND YOUR COSTS HAVE GONE UP AND UP..! that's why the housing market is stallled.. the workers can't afford to buy homes anymore.. Things cost more and in real terms wages have lost not gained.
Cutting taxes in the long run hurts unless the bills are all paid and the budget is balanced.. cutting taxes without a balanced budget is like living on your credit cards..
John, like you I'm a fiscal conservative.. The amazing thing is Bush Jr. is a spend and cut taxes guy.. The opposite of conservative.
Who do you imagine is the most fiscally conservative president we've had since I Eisenhauer? Clinton..
Shocking isn't it?
(Bush (sr) is the second most conservative president)
America is still a land of oppertunity, That hasn't stopped, the trouble is the rules are currantly set up so the rich do get richer and it takes an extrodinary amount of effort and sacrafice for the middle class to even survive..
By the way my father used to do just as you said, walk the railroad tracks for coal, he survived the great depression, fought WW2 and Became America's greatest generation, so we all stand on our forefathers shoulders.. I'm sure that in his day they said how easy he had it compared to earlier generations.. I'll be saying the same thing to younger generations,, it really doesn't change does it?
By the way, spend less sounds so simple, but it's often poor advice.. would you like examples?
Frenchy,
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but some of it is... lets just say dubious. I don't want to get in a big argument about this but let me point out a few examples of things that shouldn't be stated as facts without some kind of proof to back them up.
When he raised taxes, he set America up for her great run of prosperity. The Taxes Clinton added sweetened the pot..
This subject has been debated by people with a much better understanding than either of us without being resolved, but my opinion is that when you take money without offering a service to the person you got it from (at least 50% of taxes fall under this heading) you de-value money.
If you note the economy slowed as the election approached. Long before 9/11 It's not pure coincidence that it started to slow as Bush (jr) with his unbalanced tax cuts gained in the poles.. Foriegners no longer Saw America as safe, they began to see it as risky.. They pulled from the markets which made the market softer. Following election with each mistake Bush Jr made the market got softer and softer..
The stock market usually slows down prior to a presidential election. That one wasn't the only time it has happened. Your take on the emotions and impact of foreign investors sounds like conjecture.
Yes 9/11 damaged the economy but worse events occured during the Clinton administration and the market just shrugged and moved on..
Really? Please provide an example.
it takes an extrodinary amount of effort and sacrafice for the middle class to even survive..
That is just hyperbole. If you put forth an extraordinary amount of effort in this country you will not only survive, you will prosper. This is an opinion, but it is backed up by my observation for the last 42 years.
Rob
RobA
Thank you for keeping this discussion elevated.. I really dislike it when it becomes my party versus your party type of argument.. Frankly there are too many good decent republicans and too many good decent democrats to allow discussion like this to degenerate into senseless jingoism..
Did you read what I said about paying your bills? The world evaluates America on her fiscal responsibility. When Bush (Sr) raised taxes and followed by Clinton. America simply was balancing her budget.. We'd spent the money fighting the end of the cold war. We gained a benefit which should have been a reduction in the cost of our military. We no longer needed to fund a military capable of dealing with a world war.
The service offered to America (and the world) was peace. The dollar wasn't devalued, look at the exchange rate then verses now. Or if you will at the end of Clintons term of office verses the end of Reagan term in office.. (this isn't a slam on Reagan, while we can debate for a long time on the need to spend as much as he did, the fact is that during his presidency the cold war ended).
I'm sorry it's not conjecture about that loss of foreign investment as the election neared and Bush's chances increased.. That's well documented elsewhere. We can debate cause and effect. Heck we can debate gravity, but if Bush (JR) program was going to be so stimulating why didn't foreign investors flock back into the market following his election? Why didn't the economy continue on it's steady rise like prior to the election? (at least until 9/11)?
I realize that what I said could be taken out of context. For that I'm very sorry..
What I should have said was that fiscally worse events happened during Clintons term. Some of those events was the failure of the Singapore markets, look at the American stock market during that period barely a blip! The repercussions of the Singapore markets damaged most other stock markets.. Not The American market, money flooded here!
Another example was Brazil's bankruptcy And Mexico's the poor performance of European markets during this period..
America suffered economically following 9/11 but a couple of days of lost revenue to the airline industry should have been more promptly dealt with so much of the rest of the economy didn't suffer..
If I'd been president I would have spent time with the media explaining a version of FDR's speech, "we have nothing to fear but fear itself".. I would have reassured the nation rather than frightened it.. (that is the presidents job!)
Finally I shouldn't be the one explaining how difficult it is to remain middle class. I live in an extremely upscale neighborhood, homes sell in the million, if not tens of million in my neighborhood. My net asset have steadily increased during my lifetime and should provide my heirs with a sizeable nestegg upon my passing..
If you study any of the wealth distribution charts or graphs, you'll note that the percentage of American wealth in the hands of the top 5% is at near record levels, while bankruptcy's and foreclosures are also at near record levels..
It is not all due to poor money management. If you lose a good paying job because it went overseas all the money management in the world won't let your reduced income cover your former expenses.
I can give anecdote after anecdote but the best one is my childhood friend..
decent hard working and smart, doesn't quit, keeps trying..
He went into the service and learned how to repair electronics. after getting out he became a TV repairman, well you know what happened to them... So he trained to become an airtraffic controller and well you know what Reagan did to them, following that he went back to college and studied computers, became pretty knowledgeable about them and combined his electronic experiance with his computer training felt he'd finally Found a career.
Untill his job and most jobs like it went to India. Last time I saw him he was working as a part time bag person at a local grocery store.. he still lives in the house his parents paid for but that now has a massive mortage on it (all that training wasn't cheap) and he has exactly nothing saved for his retirement, due in about 7 years..
There has been NO attacks in this country since 9/11, so he is doing a lot right
I haven't had any lion attacks at my house, so my dogs must be doing something right.
I think that's like comparing watermelons and cherries. A little different.
Frenchy - "little of GM's profit comes from automobiles????"
I thought GM lost a boat load of cash last year.
xedos6
The devil is in the details, in corporate world it's terribly easy to shift costs from one division to another.. Want the automotive division to look bad, charge most of the GM mangagement fees to the automotive division, that's hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars cost right there. GM is extremely smart when it comes to that sort of thing. (and no law against it either as long as all taxes due are paid the IRS doesn't care. Disclosure laws are giant loopholes that you can drive a Mack truck thru.
Just one tiny little example. GM paid Cash, 1.3 billion for a marginally profitable division of a construction equipment company..
They've done this sort of thing in the past.. For example they bought Terex equipment a few decades ago. Took advantage of the TAX writeoffs available squeezed all the cash and profit from the company and then sold it at a loss..
Now why would they do that?
If you have trouble connecting the dots, I'll be glad to help.
Frenchy,
I would like to remind you, and everyone else who thinks that any large corporation is inherently evil, who it is that owns these corporations. That would be anyone with a retirement plan, or any investments. I guess that makes the vast majority of us selfish money grubbing capitalists. Or at least I hope most of us are. Otherwise the smgc among us are going to have to figure out a way to feed and shelter and provide medical care for the rest of you in your old age.
So everybody do your fair share and become an smgc today!
Rob
All I can say to you about investing, is go ask all the employees of enron, how they feel. I am a baby boomer that has paid dearly into the system for over 30 years, so I don't ccnsider myself a deadbeat. And just one last thing, is that is seems like everyone that is agains't National Health Care, has employee paid health care, do you realize how much better, our automotive companies could compete if they didn't have to deal with the out of control, health care system. And as anyone that doesn't have health care will tell you, National health care is better then nothing, and I bet the hospitals that have went bankrupt in california would agree.
Zuk,
So you think that the government is going to come in and streamline healthcare? Their track record hardly gives me any confidence in that. Our automotive companies would be in a lot less trouble if they weren't paying an outrageous pension to 3 people for every 2 that are actually working.
Rob
Let me quess now, your one of the fortunate to have company health care, aren't you. My point was that if the automakers, or any other kind of company could compete better, if they didn't have to pay out for all the health care they now have. And a far of them payin 3 people for every two, They made the contracts to do that, and them 3 people paid there dues in there life
Zuk,
"My point was that if the automakers, or any other kind of company could compete better, if they didn't have to pay out for all the health care they now have."
If health care is nationalized who do you think will be paying for it then? It will be those same companies and you and me. And the cost will be significantly higher than it is now once they add another tangled bureaucracy to the system. I already pay over half of my income in all of the many taxes that we currently have (state and federal income, sales, gas, property, license and registration, estate, liquor, tobacco, regulatory tax on cable TV & cellular phone, etc, etc....). I for one think that is enough. If we set a falling flat tax that started at 30% and dropped 2% a year for the next 7 or 8 years then you can do whatever you think is most important with that money. Until government at all levels gets its propensity to waste money and grow just to grow under control, I will fight any additional program that is proposed no matter what it is.
My point is that I am a middle class working stiff and if half the money I make doesn't allow the government to accomplish all the goals they have then something is seriously broke in the system and we need to get that fixed before we just start asking for more money.
Rob A. ready for the overdue revolution
This post has it all! Globalization, healthcare, executive compensation, product quality, taxation and terrorism. At least it doesn't have the really contentious issues of our day; I am, of course, thinking of Festool and EZ Smart.All of these are very complex questions that do not lend themselves to easy answers. I would like add a few comments on healthcare (FWIW).Let's look at a few salient facts:1. Company provided healthcare was started as a tax-efficient means of compensating workers during a period of wage and price control.2. Because healthcare is not taxed, those that receive it are, in effect, being subsidized by all taxpayers. It would be fair for all, to tax healthcare benefits as ordinary income.3. The USA spends approximately 16% of GDP on healthcare with a projection to reach 20%. In other industrialized nations it is less than 10%, and they cover their entire population. 47 million Americans are uninsured.4. Healthcare costs are the fastest growing component of employer expenses. Healthcare costs are four times defense.5. One percent of the population consume 30% of the nations healthcare expenditure. 27% of Medicare and Medicaid expense happen in the last year of life. 40% of medicare dollars occur during the last month of life.You could not have designed such a dysfuntional system if you had tried! While everyone agrees it needs to change, virtually no one agrees on the best course of action. And, those in the healthcare industry are concerned about their particular niche, not the system as a whole.It's sad that hospitals will literally dump indigent patients on the street. In a civilized society, it is also sad to see basic healthcare resources allocated in such an inefficient manner; subsidies to those that could afford it, pricing people out of the market who cannot afford it and a disproportionate spent on end of life care.If we were French, (not frenchy) we would be rioting and burning cars in the street. Where is the outrage?Regards,Hastings
I can go along with most of your post about health care, and who it benifits, but the part of medicare, most people that are on medicare, have paid all there lifes in taxes specifically to medicare, even if the supreme court says its an entitlement program, I don't agree with them, I look at it as a program that people have paid all there lives for.
Bill G.
Bill:I don't want to do away medicare either, but it would benefit all if we didn't deploy every technique known to medical science in the last month of life.My mother died at 93 after breaking her hip. She was in England under the NHS (National Health Service). Despite being in good health and travelling to the US 3 times a year, the fracture caused an unravelling of her health.Sometimes things have to take their course and I don't believe that much more could, or should have been done.My complaint is that we get so much less than we pay for, and that resources are allocated so poorly.Regards,Hastings
hello, first of all I would like to say sorry about you losing your mother. And what you say about the final days of someones like is true too, but only one problem, who would make the decision of who should or should not get any more medical help, the doctors, the goverment, or you or me, I wouldnt want to make the decision myself.
Bill:It easier to experience than to describe. Modern medecine offers so many options that the "treatment" makes life worse. Many elderly patients complain about the indignity and helplessness of their final days.Art Buchwald chose hospice care when he knew he had terminal cancer (in fact he didn't die and went back home to die in his own home). He just didn't want these "heroic", but ultimately futile attempts to eke out a few days of life.I don't think its about denying treatment but recognizing the inevitable and giving patients choices, such as hospice care.Thank you for your kind words. My mother lived a wonderful, long life and was healthy and mentally as sharp as atack until the end. We should all be so lucky!Regards,Hastings
hello Rob
I hear what your saying in my younger days as a single man, I drove trucks and there were weeiks when I would make 750.00 and the goverment would take 350.00 of it. But with the health care issue you are already paying for it, in higher medical charges and drugs, everytime someone goes to the hospital, without insurance they have to make it up, by charging everyone else more. Also your already paying for a lot of low income people on medicad. So no matter how you look at it were paying for it anyways. That is my opinion of course, What gets me is how the goverment is letting the insurance companies, health care providers, and the drug companies get away with charging the american public 2 to 3 times what they sell there drugs for in other countries. I really blame the drugh companies for most of it.
Bill G.
But, interestingly enough, Medicare spends a lot less, as a percentage of benefits paid, on administration than private insurance companies. The US devotes a larger percentage of GDP on health care than other countries, with outcomes that are only superior in a few categories.
RobA
The government can't possibly do worse and has a track record of doing much much better..
Care to debate the point?
RobA
I own GM stock so your comments are really not needed.. However were you aware that last year GM spent 1.3 billion dollars cash for a construction equipment companies marginal division? Are you aware that GM has done this same thing previously with Terex?
GM's first obligation is to itself.. Not to the benefit of the nation.. I'm sure you are aware of some of the sweetheart deals it's obtained for itself with regard to locating factories in various places.. So they certainly aren't doing this to benefit the local economy..
Once you understand that multinational corporations like GM aren't going to put themselves in a position where they pay one cent more than they are absolutely required to you begin to understand the nature of the problem..
Frenchy,
Of course GM's first obligation is to itself. What the hell else would it be? Do you think that anyone starts or runs a business with the first priority being anything else?
It is also the obligation of the managers of that business to make as much money as possible. That is what business is about. If the individuals who run that business or work for it wish to help the community they live in that is a personal choice and should be done with personal money. Not with the profit that belongs to the shareholders of the company. For instance you say that you are pretty well off, then you can afford to take some of your money and use it to help others. Or you can decide to invest it for the benefit of your heirs. Either way the choice is yours, as it should be, and no one should sit in judgement on the choice you make. Just as no one should take my money by force (taxation) and use it for anything that is not to my benefit or choosing. I make a decent living. I also work very hard for it, and it irritates the hell out of me to watch half of the money I make go to god knows what. In reality I am making two decent livings, I just don't know who is getting the other one. If that seems fair to you then I guess we will never see eye to eye.
Rob
RobA
"half of the money I pay in taxes go for god knows what",
That I think is the main issue with taxes.. people understand that we need certain things to survive. We need a military and we need a air traffic control system etc.. But there's billions of dollars spent that nobody bothered to explain why we are spending money there.
For instance (to be obscure) we have a fleece control board. It's purpose is to stockpile enough fleece for military emergencies. In actuality it does much more than that. It stabilizes prices paid to those who rise sheep.
Now I don't own anything made of fleece and I don't eat mutton (nor I suspect do you) however the board which was set up during WW2 continues to this day and American tax payers fund it.
The why is far more interesting than the details and what they do.. During WW2 there was a legitimate need for fleece. However during the 1950 election western ranchers got Eisenhauer to keep the board in place by offering some sort of political deal (that part is murkey) Since then inspite of everything the board remains..
Some things are readily apparent, for example food stamps.. It's not a feel good program. Instead it's done to stabilze the market for many commodities. without stable markets food would be much much more expensive and many agribusiness would go under.. With food stamps farmers always have a market to sell their goods to and because of that banks are able to make loans to farmers. With those loans new farmers can get into the business and you can continue to get food at modest prices.
When explained that way the few dollars you paid last year in taxes to the food stamp program (and I do mean few like less than $4.00 to the average tax payer) it's more like insurance than the waste it's portrayed to be..
Just in case you think that foodstamps are some free giveaway program that lazy bums can feeload off the government, please investigate what is required to get them..
Once you find out how tough it is, any time you see someone you suspect shouldn't be getting them provide their name and any details you have to the fraud division of welfare.. Here in Minnesota we spend 15 cents out of every tax payers dollar ensuring that fraud doesn't happen, If you see Joe Smith get them they will investigate and have prosecuted and jailed those who commit fraud..
What other programs would you like explained? To be sure there is real waste but if you look much of the real waste winds up in someones pocket.Dig deep enough and there is a political favor involved..
Frenchy,
I took the liberty of copying my post and your response to it below in order to illustrate a point. Since you started posting in this thread, your responses to me and others ignore the main point and go off in strange directions. For instance in the example below in response to your contention that GM is out for itself I state why they should be. I then raise the issue of overwhelming taxation on the me in particular and the middle class in general. Your response doesn't address much of anything that I said but you do go off on some tangent and give me a bunch of arcane, useless information. You then ask condescendingly if I need anything else explained. How about explaining why I should be OK with my total taxation rate that is already well over 50% going up. Or why GM should look out for anyone but GM.
35423.81 in reply to 35423.80
Frenchy,
Of course GM's first obligation is to itself. What the hell else would it be? Do you think that anyone starts or runs a business with the first priority being anything else?
It is also the obligation of the managers of that business to make as much money as possible. That is what business is about. If the individuals who run that business or work for it wish to help the community they live in that is a personal choice and should be done with personal money. Not with the profit that belongs to the shareholders of the company. For instance you say that you are pretty well off, then you can afford to take some of your money and use it to help others. Or you can decide to invest it for the benefit of your heirs. Either way the choice is yours, as it should be, and no one should sit in judgement on the choice you make. Just as no one should take my money by force (taxation) and use it for anything that is not to my benefit or choosing. I make a decent living. I also work very hard for it, and it irritates the hell out of me to watch half of the money I make go to god knows what. In reality I am making two decent livings, I just don't know who is getting the other one. If that seems fair to you then I guess we will never see eye to eye.
Rob
RobA,
"half of the money I pay in taxes go for god knows what",
That I think is the main issue with taxes.. people understand that we need certain things to survive. We need a military and we need a air traffic control system etc.. But there's billions of dollars spent that nobody bothered to explain why we are spending money there.
For instance (to be obscure) we have a fleece control board. It's purpose is to stockpile enough fleece for military emergencies. In actuality it does much more than that. It stabilizes prices paid to those who rise sheep.
Now I don't own anything made of fleece and I don't eat mutton (nor I suspect do you) however the board which was set up during WW2 continues to this day and American tax payers fund it.
The why is far more interesting than the details and what they do.. During WW2 there was a legitimate need for fleece. However during the 1950 election western ranchers got Eisenhauer to keep the board in place by offering some sort of political deal (that part is murkey) Since then inspite of everything the board remains..
Some things are readily apparent, for example food stamps.. It's not a feel good program. Instead it's done to stabilze the market for many commodities. without stable markets food would be much much more expensive and many agribusiness would go under.. With food stamps farmers always have a market to sell their goods to and because of that banks are able to make loans to farmers. With those loans new farmers can get into the business and you can continue to get food at modest prices.
When explained that way the few dollars you paid last year in taxes to the food stamp program (and I do mean few like less than $4.00 to the average tax payer) it's more like insurance than the waste it's portrayed to be..
Just in case you think that foodstamps are some free giveaway program that lazy bums can feeload off the government, please investigate what is required to get them..
Once you find out how tough it is, any time you see someone you suspect shouldn't be getting them provide their name and any details you have to the fraud division of welfare.. Here in Minnesota we spend 15 cents out of every tax payers dollar ensuring that fraud doesn't happen, If you see Joe Smith get them they will investigate and have prosecuted and jailed those who commit fraud..
What other programs would you like explained? To be sure there is real waste but if you look much of the real waste winds up in someones pocket.Dig deep enough and there is a political favor involved..
I recognize misdirection and strawmen arguments and know the reason for their use. If you continue along those lines I will simply choose to sit it out because having to repeat myself over and over without getting any valid response is to frustrating to bother with.
Rob
...[Message truncated]
Edited 4/8/2007 12:57 pm ET by Rob A.
Rob A.
I understand your point.. the middle class is paying the lions share of the burden I'm sorry if you take it that I thought we aren't.
I am very much in the middle class, if you look it up in the dictionary you will see my picture..
On the other hand,
I live in an extremely wealthy community homes in my zip code are priced in the millions or tens of millions (some higher).
Yet I pay less than 2% of my income to federal taxes. NO I don't cheat or fudge one cent, the accountants who do my taxes are former IRS agents who know and understand the taw laws. They sign every single return I submit. But I am extremely careful about taxes and pay only what I am obligated to pay. it's been about 2% for the past 5 to 10 years at least..
I know others like yourself who pay a much higher percentage. On the other hand I know a fair number of people who are in that top 5% who pay a smaller percentage than I do.
Could it be that the tax code is not fair? (which is my whole point).. the laws are on the books but H&R block, turbo tax etc. won't find the real breaks for you. You need experts to help you, otherwise you wind up paying 50% (your numbers)
We need to do some math...2% of a million dollars is 20,000. Now that would take 3 upper middle class people to pay with just the standard deductions..it might be 5 lower middle class to equal 20,000. Now when you consider that there are 700,000 millionaires in California alone, probably another 800,000 in Flordia...it would take a bunch of middle class to reach their tax totals...although it is only 2%. Through in New York and WashingtonDC and boom serious money.
Now most of the people making a million make a whole lot more...what is 2% of Bill Gates 5 Billion in reported income...the guy gave away 500 million last year. Add Forbes and the oil company people and you see why they carry the brunt..
But all that doesn't matter...if what you have to pay keeps you from getting ahead...then there that is a problem. Of course you could go off the grid...pull your kids out of public schools, stop driving on the roads and gather your own army and that would probably cost alot less.
Expand your ability to earn...work on improving your sitution...become active with your legislators anything but saying the playing field isn't level...that is just whining. We all have the same tax code...study what you can do....I have a business that I invest all my profits into...I get to write all that off as a cost of doing business and I make some extra money on top of my full time job as a teacher.
Now if you want a real tax problem...imagine 39 million people in our country who are not citizens that get medical, education and all the use of everthing we pay for ...for free...that will cause all our taxes to go through the roof...it is killing California and Arizona as we speak.
I'm not sure where you folks come up with your numbers. A person with an adjusted gross income of $100,000 (not exactly upper middle class), filing single, pays $22,335 in US federal taxes. Married couples filing jointly pay $18,109. I sure would like to meet the accountant that can legally reduce my tax bill to 2%, tax deferment not included. Your tax liability goes up to 33% if your bottom line is $336,550 or less, 35% over that amount. Of course, this doesn't include all the federal taxes we pay on all kinds of goods and commodities. Let's not talk about state and local taxes, since I live in one of the highest taxed states.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
How we are defining our income levels is the problem. I make 70k and pay in 7200 after all my dependents and std deductions...am I upper middle of lower class.
Hammer1
Connecticut is #1 while Minnesota is #2 which do you live in?
as for paying 2% that is simple.. take full advantage of all deductions with the aide of someone who really knows and understands the IRS (it helps if they've worked for a lifetime for the IRS and know not only the rules but the interpretation of the rules and the court decisions based on the interpretation of the rules)..
Oh and you need to be extremely disciplined with regard to income, expense, and tax preparedness.. You need to plan your incoome for not only next year but a few more years in advance.. you need to then adjust your spending to accomidate that pattern.
Frenchy,
I am in favor of either a flat tax or a tax on purchases such as you propose. The point that is being missed here is that we are all, from the rich down to the middle class, are paying way more than our fair share. It is because of the incredibly wasteful spending done by the government.
For instance, in the latest bill to fund the war democrats(not trying to be divisive, but that's who it was) tagged $18,000,000,000 in non-military spending onto the bill. That's right, I didn't hit the zero key to many times, 18 billion dollars of pork used to buy the votes they needed to pass this bill. The reason that they tack these things on to another bill is that they don't want to go on record as voting for these things on a separate bill. This way they can just say all I was doing was funding the troops. It's crap and it needs to stop. That's why I think that whatever tax system we go with we need to pass a law that says the percentages will drop over the course of five to ten years to about half of what it is now. That would force those bas#@rds to cut spending to essentials, instead of constantly coming up with new programs to waste our money.
Rob
RobA
I will explain to you why the flax tax is wrong later, but I am in favor of a spending tax which allows a person to determine for themselves what tax they want to pay..
As for Democrats spending.. please explain to me where the republicans when they were in power cut spending one cent, in fact they increased spending.
So please don't preach to me about the democrats spending..
The republicans ruled the country completely for six years.. yet spending went up every single year didn't it? The only government to balance the budget was the Clinton government.
Under the democrats they at least cut the increase in spending (which admittedly isn't the same as cutting spending), but put into proper perspective as the population increase spending must by nature increase accordingly.
Finally there is a world of differance between passing a bill which you know will be vetoed and passing an increase in spending while at the same time decrease the income by giving the wealitest a giant tax cut..
If you made more than $400,000 per year after deductions I can understand you being in favor of the tax cut bush offered.. If like me you are middle class you got a $600 advance and basically that's it..
Thus the tax cut transfered some of the cost of running the government from the very wealthy to the middle class.
Would you please describe essentials?
Frenchy,
I sad I wasn't trying to be divisive, I was just using a current example of the government wasting our money in a huge way. Are you approving of all that pork? Or are you saying that they intentionally added all that pork knowing that the bill would be vetoed? If so, what is the point of that?
Essentials: Military, Infrastructure, thats about it.
Rob
P.S. Your tone when you say things like "I'll explain why the flat tax is wrong later" is very condescending. Please refrain. BTW there are many people who share your political viewpoints who would say that a tax such as you propose is very regressive because the poor spend every dime they make, therefore being taxed on 100% of their income, while the rich don't.
Edited 4/9/2007 2:33 pm ET by Rob A.
RobA
Let me apologize for sounding condescending, I actually intended to explain later in the post but got distracted and never got back to it. I honestly never intended to offend..
As regard to the progressive nature of a purchase tax like that, I don't intend that anything should be exempt from the purchase tax.. If I spend billion dollars to buy a company the government gets 5%. The rich never let money Idle so I expect that there should be some way to tax amounts put into a savings account as well. About the only way someone could avoid taxes would be to bury it in their back yard (and then inflation would do more damage than paying the tax would)...
Why put something in a bill that you know will be vetoed?
It's politics pure and simple. When Bush vetoes the bill, the democrats will make a big deal out of it. Are you telling me that the republicans never played politics? (I can give you many examples if you'd like) ;-)
OK here's what I intended to say earlier with regard a flat tax.
It's not progressive..
That is extremely critical. For a tax to be fair it should affect everyone equally. Like you point out a flat tax affects the poor more than the rich because it's not progressive.. a purchase tax affects everyone the same (as long as there are no exemptions) While the poor may use their money to buy beer and cigarettes, the rich will still be spending money on something be it an investment or a luxury, (or just beer and cigarettes) ;-)
Finally infrastructure and Military, what about the bridge to nowhere? The pork barrel bridge they gave to the republican Alaskan senator? Ah, you are right! all politicains do it, it's how they get money for their next campaign. Doesn't matter which party they all do it! It seems more aggregous when it's the other party but if we can be honest for a bit every politican does it and we tax payers pay the bill..
I do have an issue with your overly simple list.. Military and infrastructure.
For example, there are some things only the government can afford to do. Only the government are in a position to do.. Hopefully you understood the example I gave you about food stamps.. how the prime benefactors aren't those miserable souls who get the food stamps but you and I who's cost of food is lowered because of them..
Welfare too is one of those issues that seems like it's designed to benefit the poor but doesn't actually. The middle class benefits instead..
I'd rather not go into a long explanation if you understand it already but if you disagree I hope you'll allow me to make my arguement.
However some things that seem like a social matter are in fact really a military matter..
For example the American soldier during WW2 was more fit and had fewer rejects than other countries due to programs implimented during the great depression by FDR..
School as well, because America is very literate compared to many of the countries we fight our soldiers can deal with new technology easier and are better trained than countries who's population isn't as well educated as ours..
Prosperity as well.
Without social security for example many older folks would be forced to remain in the workforce, older folks simple are not as productive as younger people are.. so the nation benefits because our younger workforce helps America be competitive with nations which do not have such policies..
Dos:"Profit is a matter of opinion, cash is a matter of fact"Enron's cash flow was a precise predictor of its demise.As always, if you want tounderstand what is really happening, follow the money!Regards,Hastings
Thanx Frenchy, I can color and connect dots just fine. GM LOST money, cash, dinero, pesos, whatever you want to trade in, for 2005. Over $3 billion, oh the type of strategic transaction you refer to gets lumped into the REPORTED loss column which was 10 1/2 Billion. These #'s are based on the entire co. ALL divisions & subsidaries, not just the automotive one.
Facts:
sales and revenue- down
income - down, no negative.
stock price - down
dividends- down- good thing you don't have to come up with almost 20 bucks a share to give back huh?
mabey most telling, production- down
benefits- down
work force -down.
This is a company headed in the wrong direction and RW much as admits it and says the obvious: "We can't keep this up."
While I do agree with your orig. premise that GM is not on the car & truck business like most people think, I disagree that they are profitable. Both literally and figuratively they are loosing $$$, and it's not just because of some complex accounting smoke and mirrors strategies with equipment companies or financial divisions. Hastings is right: cash talks and BS walks. Now if they would just stop making cars entirely they might eek out a few bucks. It's hard to say because their pension and health care obligations are so complex and variable I'm not sure anyone has a real hand on a tangible #. Another wildcard with this scenario would be the finance div. #'s because a lot of that stream is tied to car sales.
xedos6
Good for you! I'm glad you're not confused by smoke and mirrors as you say.. However why would a company that is losing money hand over fist (as claimed) spend 1.3 Billion Cash? Please explain the logic.
Oh I could see if the division they bought dominated the market and was a good buy, but it doesn't and it really isn't. To become a world player they need to invest hundreds of millions more..
I could also see if They were a good match to other more profitable divisions but thats not the case..
Instead they bought a marginally producing division of an over satuarted market in a down turn market.. Ignoring the potential tax write offs it is simply a bad business deal. Now the tax write offs mean nothing if you are already losing money.. And they are losing money aren't they?
Or are they?
Hmm smoke and mirrors!
why would a company that is losing money hand over fist (as claimed) spend 1.3 Billion Cash? Please explain the logic
Let me see if I can give you a crash course in big business. Companies that are loosing money in a fiscal year may want to , may need to, may be able to buy another business (even one that is faltering) because it fits in with their long range stratigic plans and they have the leverage or in this case CASH to do so. You said youself, GM isn't really a car maker. You're right, it's their other divisions that make $$$ and keep them afloat. That and their cash reserves. They would want to buy a a flagging co. because they feel they can turn it around with their expertise, markets are cyclical, and if this one's down it will come up. If their turnarround of that division works and is timed to meet the uptick in the industry you now have a moneymaker on your hands. That how and why a company loosing billions can do a deal of this kind. Think about it. If you (GM) only needed to show a "paper" loss of $1.3 b you could easily buy a compay that is making $$$ and has a strong outlook. It's done everyday.
xedos6
Ah but look at GM's track record in the construction equipment industry.
They previously bought Terex for what was then a big dollar and later sold it off at a big loss.
This is plane and simple a union bustin' technique done at the tax payers expense..
Frenchy - I never said what they are doing is a good strategy, or will work in this case, or that I even like it. It is a proven method but, given GM's near term historical record, I'd not bet with them. They can't keep the status quo so they have to do something. Over at Ford's though , ex Boeing chief stands a better shot.
You're 100% correct in that a Consumption Tax is the absloute most equitable way to divy up tax burden. If you buy something you pay if you don't buy, but save, you pay less or none. Very simple to grasp, administer, and avoid pay tax if that's your goal.
John
I come from Quebec, a province in Canada with over 90% of the population Catholic. The church, however, has lost it's hold on people because it lost touch with the times and did not minister to the people, but rather to the church's power base.
We call the leaders of the union movement the New Clergy. They also seem to be losing touch with the grass roots of their movement, and also minister to their power base. They may very well be shooting themselves in the foot. JL
Not a big union kinda guy, nor do I believe in buy america, being a canuck, buit I do believe in buy the best.
However, the hand ringing about how the union destroyed GM forgets two points:
1) there were two signitures on thos contracts, namely the union and managment
2) the union didn't tell GM to sell poorly designed, unreliable cars.
The root of Toyota's success is quality and that starts with design. Obviously, sabotage wouldn't have helped them either, but at the end of the day the Japanese auto story is not about unions or no unions but about reliability and value, basically sell people good cars and you'll win. They did and they did.
Nicely said!John
You left out a huge part of the GM "poor quality equation"- workers who don't give a rat's butt how well they do their job, they just want to make more money. Work ethic is now so far from being craftsmanship I don't know how it can ever return, other than in small shops and people like the ones here, who actually like or love what they do. When someone gets a job in a factory, it's usually for only a few reasons. 1) it's a way to get out of a low standard of living in an area where there is no hope of being the location of this kind of job market, 2) they know they have no chance of making that kind of money in any other job because they don't have the job skills/education needed so it's a safe choice, 3) they are skilled and will work in admin, design/engineering or management and 4) they have a family to support and based on their job skills/circumstances/life choices. Other than a few people, I don't see many factory workers with real pride in their jobs anymore. Sure, some make the best of it because of their own attitude, personality or advancement but a lot of them just develop bad attitudes and mentally rot. Jobs that are low in mental challenges leave many people with no choice but to think about how bad they have it. On the whole, craftsmanship is of no interest to management.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The big quality award in Japan is named after W. Edward Deming, an American. He built on Shewarts statistical analysis body of work, (control charts, etc...). The Japanese seized on the use of quantitative analysis to improve their processes and products one little step at a time (kaizen) after being decimated in WWII. They didn't make better cars in the 70s, they made small rattle traps that rusted out quickly, but they got good gas mileage. Carter seizing control of U.S. gas supplies was the best thing that ever happened to the Japanese car market. They reinvested their profits and continued to improve their processes. The big three are now in shambles and are trying to dump their gold plated union retiree health entitlement on the rest of us. Let's get out the knives and start carving them up. The core left standing will survive or perish. Southern states are fighting over the next new car factory being built by foreign car makers. The Detroit model is dead. GM move on down to Florida, the weathers fine and we have thousands of low wage workers ready willing and able to work.
Edward Deming, the father of zero inventories and the just in time method of manufacturing, took his theories to the big three before he was sent packing to Japan.
In reading Deming's books he points out that the big three laughed in his face...saying why would we make cars that last 10 years..when we can sell Americans new ones every three years.
You're right. He wasn't the most tactful fellow, but he offered his expertise here first. When you win the war, you get to sell your goods to everyone.
Culturally, though we tend to fire the problem instead of fixing the process. Japanese culture (with a near 100% literacy rate and 95% + homogeneity), is a bit more communal when it comes to passing the blame around. He gave them a straw to grasp at to pull themselves out of the pit they were in.
Honda though is a great story. The guy put a motor on his bike because he couldn't pay for gas to run a car. Then his neighbors wanted one too. The rest is history. They seem to be doing okay now. Kick myself for selling their stock, it's up ten dollars a share from then.
Edited 4/9/2007 8:54 pm ET by kenshep
You sound like someone with a good knowledge of manufacturing and management...I did 20years in the Aerospace Industry. My last three stints were as a VP or GM. I was always reading and trying to keep a edge (kinda like woodworking).
I got out in 1992 with the big lay-offs following Desert Storm. I got tired laying off single mothers and let myself go instead. I know everything is different now...but as you know something never change.
If only we could get peoples heads on long term goals instead of dividends...ahhh the managers lament.
Got to see Deming a couple of times out hear at the Claremont Colleges where he had/has his offices.
Coach - this is exactly the dim witted, inbred , short term view that has sent the big 3 into the giant sucking sound you now hear.
I think you are agreeing with me if I remember the post properly. If so, the attitude has not changed...if we stop buying their product they will step up...they are certainly in trouble....Lexus/Toyota has learned to play to our power hungry souls with the 438hp hybrid....can't wait to see the numbers on this thing...
Anyway, we are a long way from why buy American tools, but I guess if we only buy quality stuff and don't settle...then they will all come on board...we will have to get used to the prices...ie Festool.
CoachB
How nieve, your statement, if we stop buying their product they will step up
GM will simply stop selling what it cannot sell at a profit, Ford is committed to moving to Mexico and Chrysler will stop being a viable brand.. Mercedes paid 31 billion for Chrysler and now the best offer on the table is 5 billion?
There are still some well made American tools. But in the most common sector we've simply abandoned the market.. What happend is the Guys who started out making stuff and grew into factories That sold brands like Delta sold out to bean counters who found there was more money to be made selling foriegn made stuff than upgrading factories in order to compete..
The guy who got rich making tablesaws, who got the tax breaks, who worked the system. Taught his children too well. They worked the system when they inherited the business and as a result not much is made here anymore..
Blame it on inherited wealth.
Stop buying it and you don't have to worry about it. It's no different then global warming etc...sitting back calling those who demonstrate or boycott simple is just a way of slipping the issue...I no longer give a rip if GM or Ford make it...I am going to purchase from Toyota...
We settle for unsharpened tools half #### ground to a semi point and rave about the tool's performance after we finish the job for the manufacturer...same with hand saws right on down the line.
Everyone wants to argue the different levels of China and their equipment...why when you can get great stuff from Festool...etc. You buy a China Delta Band saw and spent your life adjusting everything...but don't complain...complain and put up with it.
The big three changed in the 70's and made changes again in the 80's Our friend from GM who has posted so well confirms the customer can and will set the trends....Ceasar Chavez was just one guy he did ok.
Edited 4/17/2007 3:44 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 4/19/2007 3:22 pm ET by CoachB
CoachB
I have no love for GM, Ford, Or Chrysler. I select that which I need from them over imports because I understand that there is a real advantage to having a viable auto industry here..
I understand that the American worker when provided with the proper tools can out produce any other country. The trouble is due to short sighted management that is rewarded by this quarters profit is not willing to do the same investment that you are when you buy that table saw or drill press..
If you want long term gains you must do long term planning.. long term planning doesn't include letting a viable industry die in the vague hope that whoever replaces them will somehow do better..
I can't help but be amazed that Ford who once had over 80% market share is struggling to keep in the double didgets.. It's not all labors fault..
In business there no rewards for poor performance. I am not going to reward American management for their board room focus on the short term dividends for share holders. You are correct...I was a VP and General Manager in the Aerospace Industry. At one point I worked for a division of Thorn EMI, a British firm...we were buying up America in huge chunks...poor performing companies we turned around when we cut the garbage and got down to performance with the long term in mind.
Other than real estate, the market is it in America...so those who wish to go money fast push for profits. CEO's who can't deliver go home to play with their 30 million dollar payouts.
As long as we allow it, it will continue....I just bought a vacuum cleaner from Riccar of America. It is the best machine I have ever owned of any kind. It comes with a 5yr, 100% warranty with free maintenance. On the box is a picture of the shipping and receiving guy from Riccar. On the other boxes there are pictures of the assembly people. This company has been in business for almost 60years. Most hotels use their commercial brands for their cleaning staffs. I had never heard of them.
You only see their add occasionally in a high end magazine like Decor etc. They do a great business because of word of mouth. I was installing the last of a bedroom set for a client when she brought out her Riccar to clean up some drill dust. She told me, I went to check it out... boom !bought one.
People start driving good cars they will tell someone and then they will ask," have you driven a Ford lately", and the answer won't be," are you joking."
If I build poor furniture I don't expect someone to buy because I am an American....that is a poor testament...hopefully not a legacy.
Edited 4/17/2007 7:36 pm ET by CoachB
CoachB
If you build poor furniture, only you will be hurt (you and your family) If GM tanks or Ford closes etc.. millions of people will be ruined. Innocent people people who work hard and do the very best they are capable of..
That is what being an American is about.. No we don't reward poor performance, however we simply cannot ignore the damage to America..
You need to take a long hard look of what is left of America that actually belongs to America..not Brittian, Japan, korea, or the Saudies...our piece is getting smaller...I live in Mexifornia (title of a new book released on our immagration problems out here) the problem is considerable. Americans have been selling America to the highest bidder since the seventies. I am a hard core American and served supplying the armed forces special operators for 20 years..many are still my friends...we all agree we need to pull our head out, get some fresh air, and start thinking again.
America's sense of entitlement is what is killing it slowly. I teach kids everyday that don't care about nothing...you ask them how they gonna make it ? They say I'll be rich, big car, and my ladies. Asked how they gonna make that happen they say they got it coming...we owe them because they were born in America they get the dream. I am not making this up.
These are the kids of our hard working Americans that punch the clock, work the over time while theire kids run loose on the streets. Mom and Dad have to work to buy the expensive tennis shoes, the game boy, the big screen, and the computer the goes with it ...not the mention all the cell phones and IPODS .... good God how blind are we.
Pain comes ...change happens. Deal with what you can...teach as many as you can...reach as many as you can and God will not point to blood on your hands. You do a great job posting. Your a passionate and you are absolutely right but...give a man a fish and feed him for today...teach him to fish and feed him for life...we hand out way too mush fish.
Edited 4/17/2007 9:05 pm ET by CoachB
CoachB
Well the tittle fits, frankly we took California from Mexico when they weren't strong enough to defend it..
(just so you know I spent 7 years in San Diego, I love that city and intend to retire there. many of my friends live there and I visit it every year for weeks at a time).
I too love America greatly, I did 9 years in the service, including two combat tours in Vietnam and yes I'm decorated.
As for kids? well my two children know the value of hard work and education.. If the kids you asked gave such simpleton answers one of two things must be occurring..
First you deal with simpleton kids (doubtful) or 2nd the kids don't know you well enough or trust you enough to elaborate. Oops I missed one,, you could be dealing with very young children who haven't properly formed an opinion or direction. (Not unusual since I was well into college before I matured enough to set my direction).
It's not unusual that In America where we have the luxury of delaying the need for maturity that school kids don't have well developed career goals.That doesn't mean that when the real need arises they won't step up to the plate I only need point out thatthe military gets wonderful results out of those same kids.. In fact the military takes to lower strata of kids and achieves great things with those same kids..
I teach the kids raised by the spoiled adults you rant about. Next wake up!!! All the military personel combined doesn't make up a full percent of our population...don't pull any bs numbers out on this one because I just sat down with the recruiters at our school and they are both combat vets in the current Army.
One percent protecting 99% and the rest are divided up into grade levels and various levels of intelligence...I hope you realize that the college kids are taught by college professors more then half of which are in la la land when it comes to America...it ain't the same place.
Now I am done with this topic...I do not have compulsive and oppositional behavior...I state my case and move on..trying to change your mind is not my job...and I am far too intelligent to believe your arguments, so as I have said three times...I enjoy your passion but am done with this.
CoachB
Why should I accept your opinion?
I like and respect most Americans.. maybe you don't but then you aren't forced to stay here you know.. this is a free country, that means that you are free to leave anytime you feel someplace else is better..
You must read a post and then select the wrong person to respond to. I never expected you to accept anything I said...In fact I pointed out two reasons why you will not beable to agree with anyone but yourself and at times I wonder if you keep track of anything you say.
I never said anything except I love America..the fact we are raising the most tended to a spoiled batch in the history of the planet is my opinion. If you don't like that then read this post and reply to someone else. They won't know what you are talking about either.
Edited 4/19/2007 3:23 pm ET by CoachB
Coach,
Don't expect Frenchy to give you anything but opinions. And don't try to confuse him with facts. I was going through this same process with him in a different thread. I asked him to show me something to support what he said and he seemed to think it was my job to support his contentions. You will also find a lot of irrelevant commentary in each post, I assume this is to hide the fact that there is nothing but opinions in the post and to avoid answering any direct questions.
Rob
Appreciate the tip.....
coachb,
First off thanks to you and every veteran. Please don't take that in any way as patronizing. I have to second what Rob just said. Frenchy looks at this place as his private finger shaking domain. Ya gotta love free speech!
Go into the finishing questions and read through the one marked "Another shellac question". It's near the top and has 51 hits on it. Take a little time to read it. Many of us have made very good, sound and intelligent points. Not according to him. It can be maddening dealing with him. Don't waste your time.
You worked in the aerospace industry. You must know a fair amount of pilots. They will always tell you they are afflicted with a syndrome called "loving the sound of your own voice" He's the champion.
I teach also and mentioned that the books and facts I referred to were in manuals centuries old as well as present day writings.
He told me if I want to believe what's in books that's fine.... for me. Imagine that.
Maybe we should just burn the books.
Anyways, check out that thread and you'll see what many have had to deal with.
Peter
Much appreciated...I am pretty new here and have been led down a few paths thinking there was going to be fun loving exchange of Ideas on life and woodworking.
I have learned that I do not have to respond or join in...in many cases I must follow the old wisdom of, better to keep you mouth shut and have people think your a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Frenchy is like a torpedo that has lost its target beacon... he'll lock on someday or just speed into the depths.
Hey, I just noticed there is a spel cheek obtion !!!
Edited 4/19/2007 6:06 pm ET by CoachB
coachb,
There are many very, very intelligent people here. Rest assured you will learn alot about woodworking, finishing etc.
There are some good laughs here too.
Don't let one sour grape ruin the champagne.
glasswd,
For every tale you mentioned about workers angery at their boss I can relate one about how bosses abuse employees.
Management isn't perfect.. Too often top positions go not to those most quailfied but those with the right connections or school tie..
I can personally speak about the number of times when as the top salesman for a company I was fired without real cause.. It always happened right after a new manager took over and wanted employees loyal to him rather than the old management..
If you were to go into those board rooms as the fly on the wall you'd be amazed at the logic behind some business decisions.. Little if anything to do with capitolism, often done to spite someone or put someone in their place.
When Management earns the astonishing wages they do compared to the workers who actually do the work that disconnect causes most of the issues..
If you make $25.00 and hour plus benefits that may seem like great wages, but when the CFO earns $100,000.00 an hour (yeh all the zero's are in the right spot) and often does so by costing jobs and marker share, it's no wonder employees are unhappy..
It's not just the relative wages, It's also about how they are treated.. If the line worker goes on vacation he pays for everything.. If the CEO goes on vacation virtually everything is a company perk.
You haven't lived untill you've stopped your car at the front door of the private field, had your luggage taken from the trunk of your car and loaded onto the plane while you walked a few feet onto the red carpet and into your private Jet.. Minutes later you're airborne direct to your destination. If you seek a tropical location in the cold of winter, you have the corporate villa to escape into where everything is provided for, including an eager and attentive staff.
While airborne the attendant's sole job is pleasing you, your feet stretch out because there is no crowding in private jets, and you are surrounded by fine custom leathers and deep wool carpet.. Compare that to the vacation the line worker experiances.. Security, metal detectors, crowded planes delayed planes, long waits, lothesome food, lugging baggage around for fear the airlines will lose it..
You come home with you and your family exhausted in debt to the credit card companies, while the Big shot has everything provided as a perk..
If you want I'll compare healthcare plans, retirement, and other rewards of working for the company..
I buy the best I can afford and I don't care where ir comes from. I own a SawStop and without the safety features it is the finest cabinet saw I have seen in the last 20 years. I DO NOT BUY from Walmart because when I spend my hard earned money it is for something that will last more than 5 years.
I got back into woodworking because all of the furniture I could afford was designed to self-destruct in 5 years or less. I now build furniture for my family that my great-grandchildren will use. Nuf said.
Dick
I know I am way late in the conversation, but simple supply and demand will be the down fall of the USA if we don't figure out that, "easy is over". We are 10% of the world's population and we consume 66% of the world's goods. That is two of every three things made or grown are sold to Americans. That is why we will continue the sea-change in quality and service that the others were discussing.
The garbage at -mart is just the beginning...look at what our country settles for in furniture...China knock-offs by the millions made from what ever wood can be carved out of China, Tiawan, or Thailand.
80% of the car parts that make up "American Cars" are imported and made by cheap labor. I agree about your point of the unions and their attitudes...here in California we one of the strongest unions in the country...the California Teachers Association...talk about performance issues...wow...and I am a Teacher here.
I agree that we are now competing on a world stage and we need to get it together like we had to in the seventies...Now if you want a car or tools that will last forever you by Toyota, BMW or Festool.
We are going to contiue to pay higher and higher prices in this country for the quality we want...I for one am building the best Damn furniture I can and putting Made in America on it .It is more expensive because it is far superior to the stuff that is pouring into this country every day.
I had to find a manufacturer to handle some production runs of my stuff. When I went on the web and looked, 99% of the listings were in China....Jesus help us. We can't expect to get the best if we don't commit to excellence in our daily tasks and jobs....easy is over.
See "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam, regarding the demise of the Big 3. I felt liberated from "Buy U.S." when GM's Chevy division advertised one of their cars as Italian styling, German engineering, and Japanese quality. Well! What were they telling me? Didn't sound as American as baseball and apple pie.<!----><!----><!---->
In one of my (many) past lives (about 1980), I worked at Boeing, and was accompanying a Continental Airlines exec on a tour of the 747 plant in <!----><!----><!---->Everett<!---->, <!---->Washington<!----><!----> (I had never been there before). I asked our tour host, a Boeing VP, why all the machines were foreign built, why I didn't see any Cincinnati Milacron or other US-made machine tools there. He said that they had tried to buy US, but the tool manufacturers insisted that Boeing buy what they had, without customization. The Japanese were willing to customize or build to spec. <!----><!---->
You might also enjoy a small book--"Kanban at <!----><!---->Toyota<!----><!---->." http://www.amazon.com/Kanban-Just-Time-Toyota-Management/dp/0915299488/ref=sr_1_4/102-4757174-0297706?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175650702&sr=1-4<!----><!---->
Explains how <!----><!---->Toyota<!----><!---->'s system of Just-in-Time manufacturing works. Interesting ideas. A few years back some American manufacturing execs were visiting <!----><!---->Toyota<!----><!---->, and a reporter interviewed one of them about what he learned. He essentially thought they had some good ideas, but screwed up by stopping the production line for defects. He noted the engineers would gather at the stoppage point, and analyze the problem before restarting the line. He sounded proud as he explained that in the <!----><!---->US<!----><!---->, we would push the defective unit aside for engineers to analyze while keeping the line going. Sort of an "I cut the last 100 boards with my jig and they're all too short."<!----><!---->
If indeed the current thinking that off shoring and outsourcing is good for the economy is correct, then I say everyone should stay home from work, and <!----><!---->America<!----><!----> will be back in the green overnight. If there is a cause of the <!----><!---->US<!----><!---->'s failure in the marketplace, we need look no further than the people paid to manage the resources and who failed miserably, all the while collecting huge sums of money from other managers who also worked the corporate Ponzi scheme. We can also look to our business schools that specialize in what is measurable, rather than that which matters. They have forgotten Hamming's maxim that "The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers." <!----><!---->
All of the above aside, I have paid a premium for US tools when the quality is equivalent. I have a handful of Starrett tools, Snap-Ons, a few LN tools, etc. I like to see my neighbors going to work, and I like to work as well. Nevertheless, I also have a truckload of Jet tools, a PM jointer, etc. <!----><!---->
<Donning flame-proof duds emoticon><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Rob / Ink Man
Don't talk to me about how wonderful foreign auto makers are. I own a Ford & a BMW, both 2000 and over 100K miles. The Ford has cost me one wheel bearing in all that time. In the last 4 months I have had to put a new head gasket, replace a leaking oil filter bracket, reprogram the transmission brain and fix a leak in the AC system on the BMW. All this at a $100 an hour shop rate.
Latest is a squeaking idler arm on the fan belt. $75 for the part 250 in labor... but get this... they have a new one that doesn't break down as soon as the old and they would happy to sell me that one for 200 more!
Dockside-If we choose to look at anecdotal bits of information rather than the big picture, my experience also would be the same as yours. I had a Volvo back in the early 90's which was a piece of junk. But, there are reasons why many foreign carmakers are increasing their sales here, while domestic automakers are struggling. I have owned a GM vehicle for 6 years, and am moderately happy with it. But, when the wife needed a new car, we ended up buying a Honda because we felt it was better built and was a better value for the money. We did a lot of research, looked at a lot of cars, and test drove quite a few also. Bottom line? We felt our money was best spent buying the vehicle we did, regardless of what any one individual GM or Honda owner had to say. FWIW-my 2001 GM contains 45% USA made parts. My 2007 Honda contains 60% USA made parts. While the profits from the sale of the car end up in Japan, the profits from the USA made parts stay here.
Pardon my rant... I'm not thinking in terms of a grand picture, or Kensenion theory of economics, just very frustrated with the bills. I've been trying to work a new drum sander into the budget for nearly a year.
just on thought on your pieace about 60% of the parts on a honda were american made, that may be true, but were they american comapanies, that made them. I am sorry to hear you had that much trouble with your Valvo, because I just watched Motor Week, they were braggin up a Valvo all wheel drive V8, and for $46,000, I would expect no breakdowns at all
This "why buy American?" has gotten off into automotive and other areas.Let's get back to woodworking.
Even within woodworking, much of the discussion has to do with TOOLS, and whether they are American or not.What about the wood itself?
Why don't American woodworkers limit themselves only to wood which comes from within the US of A?
Why isn't there a law making it mandatory that each piece of wood be labelled as to country of origin? Maybe it is time to make laws which keep all foreign wood out of the US of A. Let the foreign devils play with all that highly figured, exotic wood. Us American woodworkers don't need no stinkin' exotic wood! We can take plain ol Southern pine and use fake graining techniques to make it look just like bubinga. And what about shellac? Most of that is manufactured out of the US. Maybe it is time for us American woodworkers to stop using shellac, and stick to good ol American plastic finishes. Now lets stop beating around the bush and get down to what we really mean. After all, what and who is really an American? What about our friend, jeanlou? He is from Canada. Canada claims to be in North America. Does that make him an American? Maybe we should get Congress to declare that the term "America" refers only to the US of A, and that the terms "North America" and "South America" should never be spoken again, because they confuse people.Uh oh. Now I am getting worried. I am an American. I was born in here. My parents were born here. But all four of my grandparents were born in Italy. My name sounds more Italian than "American". I wonder what an "American" name sounds like. I guess that it can't sound like names that come from other countries. Yeah, that sounds reasonable. But now I can't think of any American names. Chevrolet? That sounds French to me. Why does General Motors use a foreign name like "Chevrolet"?I guess now that I am thinking a little more deeply, I really don't want to "Buy American" or to be "anti foreign". After all, the thing that made America strong is that it is a "Melting Pot" of foreigners. Not many original "Americans" left, any more. Come to think of it, many of the folks on Knots that I admire most are not "Americans". Yet they are great woodworkers. So my conclusion is: I am interested in excellence in woodworking, regardless of the origin of the woodworkers, their tools, their techniques or their styles. I am happy to pass on my knowledge and skills to anyone who is interested, regardless of race, color, creed or national origin. I am anxious to learn from other woodworkers, regardless of ........LET'S GET BACK TO OUR ROOTS, which at Knots, IS FINE WOODWORKING, and not "country of origin"!I hope there is some food for thought in this message. I do not harbor the hope that I will ever change anyone's mind about anything. I only hope that I can help others do, what so many others here on Knots help me do, and that is TO THINK! Actually it's fun to think.Have fun.
Mel
PS I hope you had as much fun reading this as I had writing it. My mind wanders a lot. I have found that Knots is a good place for my mind.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619
Yeh it wandered a bit but so what? Once you get this many posts away from the OP whatever you want is fair game..
How dare you attack my shellac! ;-)
As for labeling wood with it's country of origin? Well if a tree grows half in America and half in say Canada do we saw the tree in two and label one half American and one half Canadian? What if the bottom half is in Canada and the top half is in America? Or Mexico and Arizona?
Are American Territories like Puerto Rico still capable of made is USA labels or do they need a little astoric. What about the Virgin Islands Or Soloman islands? Can I use Bristish wood since they are such loyal allies?
Finally if someone comes from the tropics can they still use tropical wood once they become a citizen?
Frenchy,
D'accord!
Merci.
A demain.
Mel
(How's that for an Italian-American trying to speak French?
When writing it, I came to a stumbling block on (See you later). All I could think of was "A piu' tardi.") I need more practice with my language skills. J'ai oublié tout.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Frenchy isn't French.
A while ago in another thread he said he had some German origin. The name Frenchy must mean something to him, but it does not refer to his roots.
I understand you have some abilities with the German language; I do not know if he has any, but maybe that is the language you should be using with him when you find American English doesn't seem to convey the message. JL
Jeanlou.
Ich verstehe.
Danke schoen.
Auf wiedersehen.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Bite schoen.Auf wiederheren. JL
I am new to all this on Fine Wood, but if you really want to get politically go to yahoo chat, you can get all the hate and dicontent you want there, As far as what wood we use, as for me I won't use any wood that comes out of the rain forests, like maghony. and other such type of woods, And the price for it is outragest.
Mel
Jeanlou is from Canada...Mel is from the United States. For the time being these are two separate countries though there are movements afoot in the United States to end that so that you all can come up here and take all the water and oil and wood you can pipeline or divert or ship back south of the present border.
Your fine country, and it is, is presently redirecting water out of Lake Michigan, and draining ALL the Great Lakes in the process, even the ones that are in Canada. You all are also trying to lay claim to some of our Northern territorial waters because, you guessed it, there is oil in "them thar" ocean beds.
I sure as hell hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime, but happen it will, and then the term North America (it refers to a geographical and not a political entity for those readers unaware of the this fact) will mean something different than it does today.
Will the USA ever do the same to Mexico? I do not know. Does Mexico have any natural resources that he United States wants? If so, then it will happen and that will end your country's problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico...and then the term North America will no longer have any meaning. It will simply be the US of A.
By the way Mel, you are 100% right. Who the heck needs bobinga anyway? Make it out of spruce or pine or oak or walnut and live with what we have...nah, that is no fun. Instead, let the United States take over Central and South America once North America becomes no more than a distant memory, and we will have more bobinga than we can shake a cedar twig at. JL
JL,
I don't want to take over Canada. It's too cold. :-)
I don't want to take over Mexico. It's too hot. :-)
I just want to take over a nice big workshop!
My motto is: Make Furniture, not war!We need to have more woodworkers as leaders of their countries. The politicians have been in charge too long. Give the woodworkers a chance.Woodworkers of the world, UNITE! Let's put our woodworking peers in power. Laissez le bon temps roullez!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello, I just want to say that a turned table leg can make one heck of a weapon if you have to fight a war :)
How do you mean 're-directing' water out of Lake Michigan? You mean pumping it out locally or long-distance? I'm not sure what the organization is called but Great Lakes Partners (I think) voted to not pipe it out over long distances, at least on the West side, anyway. With the number of rivers and other Great Lakes to the East of Lake Michigan, I'm not sure it would be necessary. There has been talk of sending it to the plains states but that's what I remember them voting down. Locally, we use that water because in the suburbs along the lake, we aren't allowed to have wells and definitely can't use well water for drinking. In Waukesha County (just West of MKE), the water sucks. Lots of sulphur smell and the water table is dropping out that way so they're negotiating to buy water from the Great Lakes. Besides, some of it goes back in the form of treated sewage. Unfortunately, our sewerage district also sucks and even though they did $585M of deep-tunnel work in the '70s and another $1B within the last ten years, they still shut the deep tunnel and rain water that gets into the sanitary system takes raw and partially treated sewage into the lake. We has about 2-1/2" of rain last week and they dumped 394M gallons into the lake, partially and untreated. The MMSD (Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage Disrtict) did a study a few years ago to find the cause of the excess rain water getting into the system. They found that it was "the fault of the general public". That's in quotes because it's verbatim. If someone from the US wants Canadian water, they need to get a grip. This country needs to invest in desalination plants now, on all coasts.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh
How the redistribution of the lake's water is being done I do not know, but I do know that it is happening. There are several similar cases happening presently, where Canadian source water is being diverted either directly, through river redirection in Canada or indirectly by the USA. Indirectly refers to projects on the US side of the border that are having a direct impact on the water and geography on the Canadian side.
The fact is we are about 30 million people in Canada and the USA can equal that with the population of about 3 major cities. A great deal of our industry is US controlled. Should the USA ever decide to take our water or other resources by force, we do not have a hope in hell of resisting. There are already voices in your senate suggesting and supporting this kind of approach.
Even though the world court in the Hague has found for Canada in the softwood lumber dispute (several times), the American government is still disputing the fact, and is now saying that Quebec and Ontario are the present culprits in the issue.
The United States is a wonderful country. I spend about a third of the year in the US and have met many Americans and seen a great deal of your country. I am, however, saddened by what I see happening (referring to the above) and hope I am pushing up daisies before it actually happens on a larger scale. JL
Well, Jeanlou,the problem over here is that
1) we, as nation who's success in primarily based on technology, tend to empower folks who are science challenged, technology impaired and engineering illiterate,
2) we do not accept any power above us except the big "G" (which does not prevent us from signing international contracts, treaties and agreements of any kind).The good news is that our society has the ability to turn around on a dime. It appears to me as if certain 'conservative' groups start understanding that a 'conservative' platform can very well include the idea of 'conserving' the environment.Chris
"... which does not prevent us from signing international contracts, treaties and agreements of any kind."Unfortunately, that signature is not longer considered to have the weight of honor it once had. 'You' also abrogate whatever treaties no longer suit immediate political objectives. I think this is Bush's 'Unilateralism' though I doubt he would use a word as complex as that.Good luck when you try and use diplomacy to get what you want in the future!
Chris
Sorry that it took so long to respond...I was off the grid for a while.
Is the big G God on high or the mighty dollar? Sometimes (most time) I get the impression that money is the driving force behind everything that is going on, and the calculations are being done relative to the short term. Long term vision seems to be lacking everywhere for the time being. By the time the powers that be can see down the road, past all the $$$, it may very well be too late. JL
I'd like to begin my response by saying that I am one of those so-called, overpaid union "monsters" that work for GM. I have worked for them for 31 years. Not all, but alot of what has been said is very true. Both GM and the Union do share in the blame for the financial troubles they are in the midst of. I have to be very careful of what I say because I do want to keep my job. Just believe me when I say that leaders on both sides have been flawed in their thinking. They are both highly driven by the almighty buck. The Company so driven in years past, that they forced subpar products down the throats of the consumer, and also force the workers to install subpar parts on the vehicles. The focus was purely on getting huge numbers of product off the end of the line and out for sale. Believe me, we complained loudly about the long term consequences of that practice down on the floor, mostly on the deaf ears of our managers. Thankfully, we now have language in our contract that allows us alot of input in the quality of our vehicles.( I won't say which plant I work in, but we build full size pickups, and I might add, we build 'em better in our plant, than in any other in the world, BAR NONE!) Now, as for the Union; yes the Union got a little crazy with all their demands as well, and us young guys back in the day wondered about the long term effects of that, too. We are now seeing that, it did hurt the Company financially. But I think that both sides are starting to see that if we are all to survive in this very competitive business, things will have to change. Time will tell. Thanks to all the comments, both negative and positive. And let me tell you all this; if we lose the rest of our manufacturing base in this country, we are through. We will have nowhere to build weapons and armaments for our military needs. Remember that it was the auto plants where our military vehicles and bombs were built during the big wars. Do you folks really think that the Japanese will allow their auto plants here the USA to be converted over for those reasons? I don't. Btw, do you all know that most of the replacement parts for our military are now built in China? How scary is that?
I'll get off my soapbox now, and get back to my woodworking. After all, that's what I plan on doing now and in my retirement years, and always remember to wear your safety equipment!
Your point about our manufacturing base is right on the money. I worked on a lot of "dark projects" when in the Aerospace Ind. and we had a policy of "no foreign" . It was difficult then to develop sources, I can't imagine what it is like now.
When you look a projects that relate to stealth etc...You can not have any outside influence. We would go into a small mill shop, build a plastic tent around a mill machine, place in vacuum equipment and stand inside with the machinist as he worked. Then we would take the end mill or whatever tool was used and the special suit we made him wear. We would then have our tech's clean the machine and secure the area and off we would go....try that on foreign soil.
Adding to my earlier post, GM, I think has faced up to some of its problems regarding quality, and after reading some of the car magazines lately, are recieving some very positive reviews on their new models. I to, would never wish that someone's employer would go down the tubes. Heaven forbid that, and shame on anyone who thinks that. Mistakes were made in the past at GM, and now we are seeing improvement in alot of areas. They did, after all turn a small profit recently after a disastrous year in 2005. I pray that they continue that and that our country gets back some more of its manufacturing base, before it is too late. I believe that this country needs more of its own manufacturing, sooner, rather than later. Thanks for listening, folks.
Highfie
Your discussion about the poor quality of you water and the miserable sewage treatment in your area highlights the issue of pollution in general. Even the oceans are badly polluted at this point in time. The reason is the stupidity and greed of the human animal, dumping our effluent into the existing rivers and lakes, fully aware that it all will destroy our fresh water resources and find its way to the oceans.
Last week I read an article in the newspaper that said we must stop eating large salt water fish like tuna, because the mercury level in these animals is now too high for human consumption. The article suggests we limit ourselves to fish that are raised in captivity, on fish farms.
Corporate and individual greed dictates that we all do nothing until we are flattened against the wall by the results of our action / inaction. As long as there is a profit to be made by big business, there will be no real effort to implement the changes in the American / Canadian life style that will have a positive effect on our environment. Many of us, our children and our children's children, will die because of this.
God help us all. JL
Dockside,
I'm sorry to here that you have had problems with your BMW. I don't recall mentioning that all foreign cars were wonderful. I believe I only mentioned some of the problems with American car design and union/management decisions.
I would like to relate a story though. I remember when my brother graduated from college in the late 80's. At the time I was a residential carpenter and car enthusiast, and drove the best car I could afford. A 84 Chevy Impala retired squad car. That car was head and shoulders above a civilian Impala. It had suspension that actually attempted to absorb bumps and then stop cycling, versus bobbing up and down for the next half-mile. It also had a tranny that was designed to shift gears with authority and a bulletproof 350 V-8. I really enjoyed that car and thought it was very well controlled, handled decently and was fairly quick.
Then my brother bought a Honda Accord. What a revelation. It had a steering wheel and shifter that seemed attached to their respective parts by finely machined gears instead of a loose coil of rope. It also had a dual-overhead cam and 4 valves per cylinder in a 4 cylinder engine that could double the fuel mileage of my Impala and leave it in the dust in a drag race. And it would do both of those things while smoothly and effortlessly gaining RPM. It seemed to be carved from a billet of aluminum it was so tight.
Fast forward twenty years.... what engine is GM using in most of its vehicles now? Have they learned anything about engine design? Well some still have a close relative to that 350 that was in my Impala, But wait they have designed some new engines in the meantime. They have gone through a string of redesigns on the same basic rough and unrefined 4 cylinder engine. They have also come out with some new or redesigned 6 and 8 cylinder engines. Most still soldiering on with a single cam, pushrods and rocker arms pushing open 2 valves in each cylinder. I can only guess why one of the biggest companies in the world choose to stay so far behind the times when it comes to engine technology.
If you think..."Well that's just engines, the cars themselves are just as good". I would suggest test driving that same Honda Accord, your choice of sporty or family sedan, and then drive one of GM's current offerings like an Impala or Monte Carlo. If you don't see an immediate difference even today, then we judge cars on a completely different set of criteria.
I wish I was wrong. GM makes some cars that I love. The Corvette is easily the most performance for the money of any car in the world. And I would own a Cadillac CTS V any day. But those are small market cars that are never going to sell enough to keep GM from bleeding red ink.
Rob
George, Oneida isn't necessarily indicative of all American companies. It's just one company that happens to be in the USA. Grizzly isn't a sole indicator of Taiwan manufacturing either. Aren't you reaching a fair amount to suggest this one company is a reason not to buy American, or anything else for that matter?
Most of what you have mentioned are cosmetic issues. If you can't find the welds on some machines, could it be they are spot welded or did they grind down the welds? There is a big difference. It's not likely Oneida made their own logo labels. I wouldn't be surprised that they outsourced the barrels, too. Some of the paint chips may be from the shipping department. It's still disappointing to buy something new that comes dinged up. If there is bare metal on the stand or anywhere, that's not good. I'd certainly contact the company about your observations and complaints.
Years ago, Grizzly was a shining example of poor quality, not only in the cosmetics but components, manufacturing flaws, you name it. They have, apparently, listened to the consumer and cleaned up their act. The real test of your new tools will be down the road, 10, 15, 20 years from now. Great paint won't make up for inferior motors, light bearings or short cut manufacturing.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I received an email from Oneida this morning apologizing for the defects I noted in my machine. They offered to ship a replacement that had been personally inspected by the general manager before shipment. I really appreciate their prompt response and offer to replace my system. However, I told them that is not really necessary. As you noted, my issues are mostly cosmetic. I am still convinced the system will do an outstanding job of collecting dust.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
hammer1
I own a lot of Grizzly stuff. (just ordered some more today in fact) The reason is I have worked nearly 40,000 bd.ft. of hardwood in building this place (10,000 to go) and the some total of money I've spent fixing all of my Grizzly equipment to date has been under $10.00
I used to buy Delta but that was such a painful experiance I won't ever buy from them again, besides much of what they build is made overseas anyway..
I used to work for Clark forklift company.. they had a loyal union plant in Michigan and owned over 60% market share, new management took over and in a few years they lost massive amounts of market share.. it's textbook example of poor management getting greedy..
Today Clarks market share is in the low single didgets. The equipment is nowhere near world market conditions.
Management is too much an old boys club where the right college and prep school count for more than hard work and intelligence.. Short sighted goals abound, since management is paid not on long term growth but this quarters net returns..
After W.W.II Japan and Europe were wrecked. The world had to come to the US to buy most things. I remember when I was a kid in the 60’s everything made in Japan was considered junk. Comedians used to have punch lines about things being made in Japan, of course it is no longer true. We in the US can no longer manufacturer high quality products and pay the workers what they expect, and at the same time purchase the products at a price we expect. We have been going through a major readjustment for decades in switching to a service oriented economy. Service type jobs are things like doctors, hamburger cooks, lawyers, yard workers, builders, airplane pilots, nurses, sewer workers, software designers, etc. All this came about as a result of trade and trade is necessary for growth. If we stop trading tomorrow, then we begin to shrink the quality of life and eventually die as a society. If we discovered little green men on Mars, it would be just a matter of time before some enterprising person figured out how to trade with them. I know thinking about this stuff in depth, combined of course with national pride and wanting to buy from your neighbor can give you a major headache. But I guess the message I’m trying to get across is get your children involved in studying for a service sector type job that will be in demand in the future. If I had to do it over again I would have become involved in the health related fields. I’m not smart enough to be a doctor but nurses, including men and women are in great demand and make a good living, and have lots of time off. Sorry to sound so preachy, but if I can get this point across to one young parent who still has the ability to guide their children, then I’ve done a good thing.
A few comments:
1) in average wages in the service sector tend to be lower than in the manufacturing sector. Does this mean we will have to adjust our standard of living or is the loss of personal income compensated by low manufacturing cost through outsourcing?
2) some people argue that today we are transiting from a service society to an innovation society. Based on the nationalities of teachers and students in our top graduate schools (arguably the the center of the world of innovation), one might doubt that we as a nation are well positioned to come out of this transition as leaders. Chris.
You make a good argument. My comments were based upon the reality of what is taking place, and in passing along my 2 cents worth of knowledge about how young people should position themselves for the future. The bottom line is that when the other guy can produce the goods at a cheaper price point than you can have them made back home, you’re going to the other guy. We are in the process of creating a world economy and I suspect we in the US will probably end up taking a few steps backward in the process. I hate to say this and PLEASE DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME because I am not a doom and gloom monger who wants to see anything bad happen. However I don’t think it is a question of if, but a question of when, when will the terrorists of the world succeed in setting off a nuke in an American city? You can love George Bush or you can hate his guts, but one thing is not in doubt - these terrorists are not going away. They pass their hate from generation to generation with extreme patience. We on the other hand get upset if we have to wait 5 minutes at the drive-thru window for a Happy Meal. The reason I bring this up is not to start a debate on terrorism, but to layout a long term prospective and say the deck is going to be shuffled at some point and no Republican or Democrat can stop it. I suspect in the end we will probably bring the manufacturing jobs back home because we have to. I just prey I’m not alive to see it happen, and I hope my analysis is dead wrong.
I read the transcripts of Shek Mohammad's trial, in which he confessed to being the master mind of 911 and many other attacks. The thing that shocked me the most was the he pointed out 32 other attacks that had been stopped or had failed because of heightened security. These 32 attacks we aimed at the United States...Oh yes, and he said the being called a terrorist was demeaning..." Iam an ememy combatent" (spelling?). He wanted us to call them soldiers.
They are not going to stop...they can't wait for the Presidential change...they know we don't have the stomach for a long struggle because if we can't get it now, then it must be too hard. This war is extremely important and is still quite small...we lost more soldiers in the first hour of D-Day then we have in Iraq to date. Yes, every life is important...but since when did we become so spoiled that we think we can protect our way of life without great sacrifice...Have a talk with the WWII vets...
Before you question me let me tell you I spent 20 years witht the DOD making sure our "Operators" had everything they needed for the most secret of missions. My security clearance is still enforse and I haven't been in the business for 15 years.
If Al Gore thinks Global warming is inconveinent what the #### is terrorism....I know of one way to melt the polar ice cap over night...one nuke and it will get real hot.
The people in Iraq have been told what to do for 30 years and we want them to be totally responsible for themselves in 3 years...nice...pull up to the drive through window your govenment is complete...God help us.
I will say I am loosing patience with their cultural need to kill one another just because....I thought the gang members I teach were crazy...these people take the cake. But then again...we haven't made to the drive through window on racism either.
Sir I was hesitant in bringing up the word terrorism on a woodworking websight and I’m certainly not going to head down the never ending name calling route that comes from discussing politics. I think it has become clear that modern day democracies are incapable of defending themselves until they genuinely feel threatened, and unfortunately a lot of people in our country don’t feel threatened. As a result I think it is just a matter of time before we lose a city to a nuke, and this will ultimately make us feel threatened because we’ll be living in our basements trying to avoid radioactive fallout with marshal law being the order of the day in the streets. The original point I was making is that nobody likes to see us lose manufacturing jobs to other countries and of course the politicians will tell everyone they will fix it if you just elect them. However they are not going to fix it because they know the only thing that will keep those jobs in our country is protectionism, and of course such policies will destroy trade and wreck the economy. When a nuke goes off in an American city, (and I think it is a question of when and not if) the deck will be shuffled and the manufacturing jobs will come home because we won’t be able to depend on a world in turmoil to produce the essential goods we need. Now we can all prey that my opinion is dead wrong. In the meantime get your kids pointed in the direction of a professional, service industry type job (like health care) so they will have a future when they discover dad’s well paying factory job is not going to be passed down to them because it doesn’t exist anymore.
Edited 4/8/2007 2:59 am ET by steveky
Unfortunately "Terrorist" is a tag right now and is a term that points to those who wish to harm us..nuke us...ie your senario. I pointed out that the current Administration had taken much heat for calling these people enemy combat personel and that is just how they see themselves .
When we reduce 911 to "the events of 911" and the incidents surrounding 911, we fail to understand a mind set...we don't call them the events of Pearl Harbor.
Politics of isolationism is worse then protectionism...large companies in order to meet demand at the prices we want have sent the jobs off shore...unions demanding the American Dream have seen to that...also when we comsume two thirds of all the world's goods, sooner or later the rest of the world will think we are dangerous to their existance...like some preditor on the loose, we will kill and eat where we will. One of the Biology experts on the new series "Planet Earth" said that if everyone on the planet lived and consumed like the Americans we would need two additional planets to support them.
I hope we have the balls to stop whining and manage our greed...we will destroy it all. Politicians will react to what we scream for...not what we need. Better to be right then popular. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of honesty in either party...just more politics of division.
Either way, the Enemy is not going away.
You make some good points and I agree that greed is a real human flaw. I think the only thing that exceeds every day greed is political greed. I’d love to think that people run for the presidency for all the right reasons. However with all a person has to go through in order to get and keep the job, it would take a saint to pursue that job for all the right reasons, and no saint has ever lived in the White House. The job is all about satisfying massive human ego which is fed by the power, and ultimately they all cash in on the greed. I try not to think about it too much because I genuinely believe that in about 1970 (give or take), we left the ascendancy of our society and began the decline which will last who knows how many years? - God I’m depressing myself. One of the reasons I got into woodworking in my spare time was to get away from the news channels. How about we get back to talking about the pleasure that comes from creating something out of wood? Have you started any interesting projects lately? I’m thinking of trying my hand at making some cabinets.
Here, here we need a lot more distraction and focus on the things we can control...I am working on taking English, French and American farm table designs and trying to work it into a cool bench seat that can work as a coffee table...I got one done in poplar stained "esspresso" and it's pretty cool for a warm-up.
You got some good stuff goin on?
The bench seat/coffee table sounds like an interesting combination. You must be an advanced woodworker. I’m currently in-between projects and I’ve spent a lot of time cleaning up my shop/garage. It never ceases to amaze me how saw dust can find it’s way into everything. I just bought 2 books on cabinet making and like everything else in life, the authors seem to have opposite ways of doing things. Now I have to take the best from both sources and try to make the best out of it.
I have a little business that has kept me in tools since 1995. Frank Klaus said it best...we are Boxologist. There are a lot of ways of doing the same thing..you feel, your tools and your shop will determine how you do them...another thing Mr. Klaus said that I think of everyday...once you've got the tools and the shop...all that is between you and great work is personal integrity.
It doesn't matter if you make money from woodworking or just the fun of doing it...it's about the work.
You seem to have a good grasp on woodworking and I’m interested in your opinion. I’ve heard a lot of people bad mouth biscuits and say they do nothing for the strength of joining wood. I like biscuits myself but since I have no way of testing, I don’t know if they are right. What is your opinion on using biscuits?
Biscuits have their place, as does pocket joinery and dowells. I think is has a lot to do with what you are trying to do.
Biscuits in miter joints are great. Biscuits used to align an edge glue up is great. Edge gluing boards has some conditions to be careful of...don't us biscuits in anything under 3/4 they will telegraph after sanding sometimes.
In making quick cabinets they are good if you are applying a face frame after you biscuit up the box...(even with biscuits I try to find a place for a screw if possible).
I have seen people use biscuits to make drawers and their stuff sells...time will tell.
All of this discussion is already outdated now that the Domino by Festool is out on the market...save up and get one...they are pricey but Lord to they cook.
sorry for sounding illiterate..typing to fast and got my mirds all wixed up!
I appreciate your insight on biscuits. Yes I know about the Feestool but I’m going to stick with the “old fashioned” way of doing things. The Feestool method will be strong and fast but I doubt those joints will last 100 years, and that’s what I’m thinking about when I put my heart into making something. I’ve started branding my projects (in an out of the way spot) with my name and date on the hopes that after I’m long gone and my stuff has passed from yard sale to yard sale, somebody will say “who was that guy, he sure took the time to do it right”?
The festool deal is just a mortise and loose tennon joint....very old school.
CoachB
Interesting that you focus on terroism, I sure wish our prersident did. Could you explain why OSama Bin Ladin who launched the attack on America is still running around? I'll grant you that Bush (jr) may have gotten confused with Iraq and Afganistan and Saddam Hussien with Osama Bin ladin but hopefully somebody in his white house staff could explain the differance..
'Enemy combatant' is our term, not theirs. He just wants to be one because he would be treated differently if he was one. They call themselves 'Soldiers of/for Allah', not enemy combatants. Here's one definition: "An enemy combatant has historically referred to members of the armed forces of the state with which another state is at war." They are not officially fighting for an actual state or country, so they shouldn't be called that, nor treated as such.You're right, they aren't going to stop. They didn't stop for the empires that overran them over the last couple of thousand years and they aren't gonna stop for us, either. I have a cousin who was stationed in that region during the '60s and he has made some interesting comments about the situation, similar to yours.The people of this country have had it too good, for too long. It's true that some here don't have a pot to pizz in or a window to throw it out of, but they usually have more than dirt, like the people in some parts of the world. This is America, where we can have what we want, when we want, all the time and a lot of it. I think that is a large part of why they hate us, along with our tendency to be the ones who are called by just about every country on the planet when the going gets tough. Here is a link to the Kink's song, 'Catch Me Now, I'm Falling' and although it was written quite a while ago, it's still true.http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/kinks/catch+me+now+im+falling_20079032.html
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
he was in a military court at Getmo, during his trial he stated that is what he was a soldier...his words not mine.
Sorry, had another comment...yes they all call on us when their azz is in a sling...but more often then not they don't say thank you...we must really look at the culture we are getting into when we go...Kosovo for instance..
George,
I've read all the posts on this thread, great topic. Last year I purchased a 25" Woodmaster Planer/Molder. The accountant (my wife) and I drove to Kansas City (from Chicago) to see first hand the machines in demo and we also got a tour of the factory. The whole machine is American made as well as the 7 1/2H Lesson motor and let me tell you, it is bullet proof. Most of my knowledge of woodworking came from my 80 year old grandfather, when he inspected and ran some boards through the planer his comment was, "now thats what machines used to be made like". If you have a chance go on their web site, they love to pitch that their equipment is Made in the USA.
Jay
Metod
I a non-Catholic and my wife a Catholic...I get the best of both worlds. JL
...and the same to you and your family.
We choose to carry very small crosses...not too heavy. :-) JL
I totally agree with you, and how the pay the CEO's is immoral, unethical, and I think should be illegal. Just like the guy from exon that got a 400 million dollar retirement package, what is a person goin to do with that much money anyways, you can only buy so many houses, cars, and boats.
Hope to hear from you again
Bill G.
Ford CEO (I think Ford is worse off than GM) got $28 million after only four months on the job. What will it take for the peasants to storm the castle?
Hi
Being British and working in the US oil industry half the year around I do see much of what is being said here. In this global economy you either succeed because you are so cheap that you can't be ignored or you produce such excellent products that people end up beating the door down. In the UK in the late 70's the country was just about bankrupt in many ways caused by unions holding the governments' and manufacturers to ransom. This cycle was broken at much cost to many but in the end a healthier system was born and we now have a good economy and excellent standards of living, albeit expensive. Now here's the rub, I buy Fine Woodworker at twice the cost of you chaps because I have to get it delivered to the UK - I'm prepared to pay this cost because it's simply the best woodworking magazine out there. Maglites sell in their bucketload in the US and UK and we pay double. Why? Quality sells. BMW sells premium cars in their thousands both sides of the Pond because people want that level of product. At one time American cars and much of the engineering products were the hallmark of quality and innovation. Sadly much of what is now produced is not considered to be of much worth in the world outside of the US and this is a shame. If any of you folks work in the GOM you'll see an industry dominated by European manufacturers when at one time the reverse was true and in the UK it was mainly US personnel and gear. We in the Western world are told that low cost labour is the issue - not true. Many factories in China or India are almost autonomous with little labour involved to be a major cost. What we don't do anymore is push the boundries and innovate and lead. This is a particular problem in America as change is seen to be a dangerous thing - it's the one thing that frustrates me reading Fine Woodworker is that everything is in inches not metric which every other country in the world uses. So I guess that what I'm saying is that there is no excuse for shoddy machinery - if you make something worthwhile it will still sell even if the price is higher. This is an area where America can certainly win over the cheap gear from China. If you were to ask me to pay $100 for an imported item compared with a $150 tool which has inbuilt pride and workmanship then I'll pay the extra and feel good about it.
Incedentally I have to say that the furniture made by the people showing in Fine Woodworker is the best in the world bar none. You have the rest of us well beat.
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