Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 14, 2009 03:54am | #1

   Waterlox is varnish.  It comes in three flavors Original/Sealer which is thinned for use as a wiping varnish, Gloss, and Satin which have somewhat higher solids content and a harder cure.  As varnish, and a varnish with phenolic resin it will be very tough and protective.  But it will look like varnish, though the appearance depends greatly on how many coats you apply. 

   You can achieve the same "in-the-wood" look that BLO gives by using an oil and varnish mixture. You can make your own mix, or buy any of a number of brands that are already mixed.  To be sure, given the confusing naming of products by the manufacturers, look at the directions.  If the directions call for applying it liberally, letting it soak for a relatively short period of time, and then wiping or buffing off excess, then it is an oil varnish mix.  Take the wiping off of excess seriously--if you let any film build on the surface it will be soft and almost gummy. 

   Considerably more protection water water stains and the like than the pure oils, BLO or Tung, but no where near the protection of a varnish.  But, the issue is whether that extra protection is needed, especially since refreshing an oil/varnish finish is so easy.   

1. 
   Briarpark | Jan 14, 2009 01:15pm | #8

   Steve,

   Thanks, you answer lined up with what I've read other places, I think I'll try both Waterlox and mixing my own oil/varnish mix since I already have a qt of BLO on the shelf.  Any thoughts you could add about mixing my own would be appreciated since this is the first piece of nice furniture I've made.

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 14, 2009 02:40pm | #9

   Briarpark,There are as many oil/varnish mixture "recipes" as people who use them. Basically, you will get equivalent results using a 50/50 mix of mineral spirits/varnish. In other words, dilute whatever varnish you choose with an equal amount of solvent, wipe it on, let it penetrate for 20-30 minutes and wipe it as dry as possible. Repeat several times. You can vary the mixture to include BLO, it won't matter much.But hold on. You complained about results using brushing lacquer,"too many brush marks so far"Do you mean you don't understand that you need to level sand each (or every few) coats of finish to achieve a completely flat and smooth surface? Then after the final coat is leveled, it is rubbed out with fine abrasive to any desired sheen?Since you already have lacquer on the piece, all you need to do is start the level sanding process. You can achieve any surface appearance desirable with lacquer, from an "oiled-in-the-wood" look to a substantial film. It's all in the leveling and rubbing out. And it's easy.Rich

   Edited 1/14/2009 6:41 am ET by Rich14

1. 
   Quickstep | Jan 14, 2009 03:52pm | #10

   Rich, What brand of brush on lacquer are you using? I've tried brush on lacquer and also got brush marks and found the amount of between coat sanding to level the finish to be arduous.

    

   Briarpark, I used to make my own oil/varnish homebrew. 1st Coat was 50/50 oil and thinner, flooded on and wiped off. 2nd coat was equal amounts of varnish/oil/thinner flooded on and wiped off. 3rd coat was equal amounts of varnish/oil/thinner brushed on thinly; sanded after drying. Last coat was varnish thinned about 25% with naptha and brushed on thinly. The naptha makes it dry before dust can get in it. Sometimes I would experiment with the amount of oil or varnish in the third coat to influence the film thickness, but I was usually going for that "close to the wood" look. When I tried the Waterlox, I discovered that I was getting the same result with less effort; all from one can.

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | Jan 14, 2009 06:42pm | #12

   I'm using brushing lacquer for the first time, and I love it.The drop leaf table that I'm doing was sanded to 220, then stained with a penetrating oil stain. That was followed by a light rub with 4-0 steelwool.One coat of Deft sanding sealer, and more steel wool (didn't take much work or time, mostly was getting out tiny dust particles).Two coats of Deft Brushing Lacquer, semigloss, each rubbed with the same steelwool -- each taking just a very reasonable amount of time/effort. I'll be putting a third coat on, but not because it needs it "for looks". The sheen is great now. I figure that a third coat will add just a bit more protection.

   (edited to correct the name of the product)

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

   Edited 1/14/2009 4:57 pm ET by YesMaam27577

2. 
   Rich14 | Jan 15, 2009 03:40am | #16

   Quickstep,I don't use brush-on lacquer. I spray all finishes, lacquer, shellac, varnish. I know that doesn't help your particular situation right now. Once I learned how to spray properly, I never looked back. I would never brush a finish. It's not hard to learn to spray. Once you get the eye-hand-muscle coordination, spraying is so much better than brushing that you can even use a lowly spray can to finish the finest antiques. Anyway . . . lacquer is not a material that can normally be brushed. By its very nature, it begins to evaporate so quickly that a brush would actually get stuck in the drying film if the stuff were laid down at the speed normally used for other finishes. To allow it to be brushed, additional chemical and mechanical agents are added to the thinner/solvent. These include drying retarders and a higher ratio of solvent/solids than found in spraying formulations.Since the first rule of finishing is to get the finish down with as few imperfections as possible, prior to dealing with those imperfections, your situation may require thinning the lacquer much more than you have been using it. Ignore any information on the can against thinning. That's there to keep the manufacturer out of legal trouble. If he advocated same, he would be in violation of laws regarding Volatile Organic Compounds.You want to get the film to flow out for a longer time than it is now doing. Even a few extra seconds could improve the situation. Don't over-brush. Flow it on in one direction, and leave it alone.With regard to leveling, the following applies to ALL finishes, not just brushing lacquer. It's the process that separates poor finishes from great jobs. It needs to be done with at least every few finish "layers." In your case, with every application. There is no film finish that can be applied and simply left to flow out then dry/harden/cure and look fine.1. Let the finish completely dry. For spray lacquer, that's measured in hours. With brushing lacquer, wait 12-24 hrs.2. Sand with 320 grit on a rubber sanding block (or firm felt block). Use only the weight of the block and your hand, sanding gently. The objective is to take down the highest "mountains" (irregularities) of the finish, including dust nibs, brush marks, small drips, whatever, leaving some shiny, untouched 'valleys" in-between. (any large drips, sags or runs should be taken down with a razor blade or scraper plane first).The sanding should produce a fine, dry powder with almost no effort. If it doesn't, the finish isn't yet dry. Wait longer.On the first round, it's not possible to completely sand the surface to a smooth, uniform condition. There will always be large valleys untouched. If you try to get it all, you'll rub right through to bare wood. Don't.Then do another application and repeat the above. With each application, and each sanding, the abraded "mountains" become wider and wider and the "valleys" become smaller. It becomes easier and easier to approach a uniformly-abraded, ground-glass texture.A by-product of the process is that dust nibs, and the anxiety associated with them become irrelevant. While cleanliness is still important, they cease to be a factor. They are simply removed from the equation.Depending on the type of finish and number of applications, somewhere about 4-7 repetitions of application, drying, level sanding, it will be possible to achieve a completely uniform, flat, abraded surface. The mountains and valleys will completely coalesce with minimal effort. Some finishers (I'm in that group) consider this point to indicate that no additional finish needs to be applied. This is a thin, very close to the wood film that can be rubbed out to any degree desired from a soft satin sheen to a mirror gloss, or any where in between. More finish can be applied as a matter of taste, but soon the film becomes too thick.Rubbing-out steps start with 400 grit wet-or-dry sand paper with or without a lubricant (non-odor mineral spirits, naphtha, water with dishwasher detergent - a drop in a qt). 4-0 steel wool then will give a soft satin surface. Or continue sanding with 600 grit, 800, 1200 or higher, followed by automotive rubbing compound (red) for a semi-gloss surface, refine that (very fine semi gloss) with automotive polishing compound (white). And for a mirror polish, use swirl remover (Meguiar's Scratch X).Rich

3. 
   Briarpark | Jan 15, 2009 04:44am | #17

   I think I 'll give it another try and sand more, brush less, wait longer between coats since I may have done a couple of coats too close together and thin the lacquer a bit.

    

   Thanks to everyone for the input.

4. 
   tom77 | Jan 15, 2009 06:45pm | #18

   Rich,
   I just completed a small table, using Deft brushing lacquer to finish. Your process is spot on, in my opinion. There were a couple of additional problems in my case. First, the odor of Deft is very strong, and will cause headaches if not ventilated. Not good. The second issue is edge treatment. I found it very difficult to get a smooth coat on the edges, and I resorted eventually to fine scraping with a razor blade to even out the coat. I then rubbed the edges only with steel wool.I used your process with few exceptions to apply about ten coats, sanding after each two coats with 240 grit wet/dry. I did not thin because of the label, and thinning probably would have helped a lot. I could easily stopped at seven coats, if my brushing skills were a little better. I did the final rubbing with abralon pads on my ROS, using water as a lubricant. I used 360, 500, and 1000 grit pads, resulting in a matte finish with no flaws. It would be straightforward to continue on to a gloss finish at this point.Best regards, Tom.

5. 
   Rich14 | Jan 16, 2009 01:01am | #19

   Tom,Just a small clarification. It's not my process. It's just a general description of the way a film finish needs to be "finished."Rich

2. 
   Briarpark | Jan 14, 2009 07:47pm | #13

   I've put 7 coats of Deft brushing lacquer on my samples. Early coats were sanded with 220 grit and later coats were sanded with 320-400 and the last coat was rubbed with 0000 steel wool.  I'd like to get rid of the brush marks and perhaps I just need to sand better and go back to the 220 grit to level it out.  I feel like I'm getting a pretty thick coat on it and I'd like to have more of an " in the wood" look which is how one of the responses described it.

1. 
   Quickstep | Jan 15, 2009 12:16am | #14

   This is just a guess - you may be over brushing. Try to just lay it on and leave it. Having "grown up" using mostly slow drying finishes I tend to brush and brush and brush. In reality this makes it worse because you're adding brushstrokes after the finish has begun to dry and they don't get a chance to level out. I need to re-train my brain.

2. 
   Quickstep | Jan 14, 2009 05:09am | #2

   I've used Waterlox several times and I like it. I have only used the original/sealer. To get that "in the wood" look with some level of protection I do the first coat as you would other oil finishes; flood the surface until it looks like it can't absorb more, wipe off the excess and let it dry. I apply the second coat in much the same fashion and let it dry. Before the third coat, I sand with 320, just enough to level any nibs that may have resulted from dust getting in the finish as it dried. I apply the third coat with a brush, but thinly. If I'm not happy with the gloss after that, I sand and apply a fourth coat and so on. As Steve mentioned, the differnce in the various Waterlox products is the amount of solids, so you can either get all of their products, or apply lots of coats. I actully like "sneaking up" on the gloss because it also lets me control the thickness. When I'm happy with the gloss, I polish it with 0000 steel wool lubricated with a mixture of naphtha and wax and then buff with a terrycloth towel.

1. 
   heartwould | Jan 14, 2009 06:29am | #3

   How do you address stain with Waterlox?

1. 
   Quickstep | Jan 14, 2009 06:51am | #6

   I seldom stain, but if I do, I would stain the raw wood and then finish with the Waterlox, expecting some of the stain to get wiped off during the first coat.

   Rodnog, I didn't mean to imply that Waterlox was a lot of work, only that if you use only the original/sealer it will take many coats to get the same build as you do with the higher solids products. In fact, I like that it takes a lot of coats since I can see the gloss develop slowly and adjust it as I apply additional coats.

   I've really only used Waterlox on mahogany and I've gotten great results, but I can see where it might be a bear to get an even looking finish on pine, but the pictures look great.

    

    

    

    

    

1. 
   rodnog | Jan 14, 2009 07:02am | #7

   On the job, we used the original/sealer.  That's why I knew it was a long process.  Sorry, if I mistook your statement.  So, let me say--It is a lot of damn work. :)

   We used it on red oak and pine (knotty and select).  It was a bear.  Now if I had the time and was working on a piece in my shop, I agree that it would be worth the effort.  On the job, though, the oak's grain absorbed it--well, as oak does.  The pine is just a pain because it just will not stop absorbing.

   As I said, I am not passing judgment on Waterlox.  I have a couple of gallons in the shop and will experiment on a few upcoming projects.  I hope I can be as satisfied with the results.

   Regards.

2. 
   TWG | Jan 14, 2009 04:57pm | #11

   I only use traditional oil based stain under Waterlox and I let it cure for a week at least.  Otherwise the WL will remove a good bit of the stain. 

3. 
   rodnog | Jan 14, 2009 06:30am | #4

   I am presently working for the owner of Waterlox, Jay Hawkins.  Of course, Waterlox was used on all of the wood surfaces.

   I agree with Quickstep, it is a lot of work to get--what I consider--an even coating.  I attached a photo of the ceiling in the addition.  Knotty pine with 8 coats, which looks great from a distance.  Up close?  You have a very spotty look between knots and open grain. 

   Now please, before I get lectured.  The 8 coats were put on at Waterlox.  I did finish the beams, and after 5 coats of brushing, I have went to 400 grit and cheesecloth.

   Jay has told me that the initial coat should not be put on if the wood is sanded with anything higher than 150 grit because the Waterlox will not adhere properly. 

   From my experience on this job where Waterlox was used on everything from hardwood flooring to pine trim, I'm neutral about the product.   I probably would not use it on furniture or trim applications.  It's seems best suited for flooring.

   I have to admit that the cabinetmaker and I achieved the best finish with the product, but that was after 10 coats of spraying and 4 coats of sanding and hand rubbing.  It was just way too much work.

   Also, as an aside, I did ask Jay about Waterlox being a varnish, and he argued that is was a tung oil not a varnish.  Don't shoot the messenger.

   Good luck whatever you decide.

1. 
   rodnog | Jan 14, 2009 06:39am | #5

   Sorry, forgot the photos. 

   By the way, I have no idea why my last post was addressed to "ish".

   Oh well.

   Edited 1/13/2009 10:41 pm ET by rodnog

   
4. 
   rodnog | Jan 15, 2009 01:01am | #15

   Anyone experimented spraying Waterlox?  I've tried it, but would like to hear other thoughts.

   Thanks