Anyone used Bridge City Tool Works planes? I just received a flyer advertising their planes and the least expensive was over $1000 with some going to $1500. I have always viewed L-N as the quality planes and bellied up to the bar for several of theirs at under $500 but I am trying to figure how a hand plane can be twice as good as a L-N. Can anyone assist me in understanding ?
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Replies
Ever seen a Sauer & Steinter or Holtey?
No, are they more expensive than Bridge City? Are they worth it or is it just a boasting factor?
Check out Carl Holtey and see what you think. Sauer & Steiner are worth a visit too.
Yes, they are much more expensive.
I don't own anything more expensive than an L-N or two.
That's scary. $14,452.88 for one plane. There are not enough locks on my shop that would allow me to sleep at night.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
$14,452.88 for one plane..Gee.. my LEAR Jet cost a heck of ALOT more than that!$14,452.88 for one plane.. Sorry, I had to... Well, to each their own.. God bless then if they can afford one!
$14,452.88 is almost what my parents paid for their house.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
As some of you may know from another thread, Holtey will be selling a plane or two in kit form, if that turns you on.
I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I think the original poster was looking for someone who had used these high priced planes, and wanted to know if they were worth the money. I don't know myself, but this might help,read the editors review.
http:http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolguideDirectory.aspx?dir=Hand+Planes&subdir=Smoothing
P.S. check out the St. James Bay review
high,
"$14,452.88 is almost what my parents paid for their house."
Yeah, but could they get whispery thin shavings after pushing it across a piece of maple?
Cheers,
Ray Pine
Kind of, it was brick. My dad had two planes- a Craftsman equivalent of a #4 and a block plane, also Craftsman. When we had the estate sale, I didn't get a chance to squirrel away some of the tools and the #4 went mainly because it was hardly ever used. He used it on some pine and oak but never used it a lot and at that time, nobody was as interested in handplanes the way they are now. I kept the block plane and flattened the sole, then got a honing guide so I could get it in shape. It has an adjustable mouth and it's not as precise as the better ones, but it does a decent job. I have since bought an English #4, a #6C, #40, #75 (pretty useless), a #80, a high knob #7 and a low knob #7. The #4 has the original iron and is sweet!. I bought a L-N 2-3/8" iron for the #7s and the #6C. I just bought a workbench that was at Boy's Tech School from a friend last weekend and have been cleaning it up. I used the block, #4 and the high knob #7 on it for the edges and to plane the nicks out of the drawer faces, as well as some of the edges. Outstanding results! The frame and drawers are maple and the sides/back of the carcass are maple plywood. There is some really nice birdseye on it. Too bad it's on the underside of the frame that supports the top. I have a waste basket full of wispy thin shavings, some are 1-3/4" wide..
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Folks have touched on this, but not hard enough for my satisfaction :-) so here come my $.02... This is aimed more at the beginners of the crowd who might be lurking in the shadows...
This discussion reminds me of when I first started golfing. I was at the driving range with a guy from work. I kept slicing my drives, and said I needed to buy a new driver. My co-worker, who'd gone to school on a golf scholorship, took my beginner golf club and whacked a drive about 280 yards out, dead straight.
"It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools."
That's shorthand for "It's all about how well you can use it."
I own 5 planes: a Record #4, Lie-Niessen low angle block, #83 scraper, and shoulder planes, and a Craftsman adjustable block plane that I got when I was 12 years old. Having recently bought a Tormek sharpener, I thought I'd try it out on my least expensive plane. You guessed it- the Craftsman now peels off tissue thin shavings.
That being said, every tool has it's own ecentricities. My Record has a bit more lash than I'd like, but over the years, I've figured it out and work with it. A Bridge City might have less lash, but after 10 years of using both, I'm guessing that the skill of the driver is more important.
By the way, there's a great article in FWW #173 on how to tune a hand plane.
"Honey, will you please make some sawdust and track it across the carpet?"
"Yes, dear..."
I thought your point was well-made... until you said proper fettling of the Craftsman block plane only became possible with the purchase of the expensive Tormek sharpening machine. ;-)
Seriously, your post reminded me of that old poem "The Touch of the Master's Hand" or something like that. It's about a beat-up old violin drawing bids of only pennies at auction, at which point an old fellow steps forward and plays the heck out of it. Then of course it sells for big $$.
That said, I bet the old guy would have made a Stradivarius sing, too.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I haven't used a Tormek, but I have looked at the one that has been bludgeoned by the staff at the local Woodcraft. I have a granite tile (18"x18") and have been using silicon carbide paper on it. Even with 1500 grit, my irons and chisels shine real purty and I have cut some really hard maple with great results. My high knob #7 needs a flatter sole because the area ahead of the mouth is concave, but not as bad as it was when I got it. My low knob #7 is dead flat and the original grinding marks are very visible, so I know nobody has used it more than a few times. I don't know why it was set aside but it was kind of ugly when I bought it. I haven't spent years working with hand planes but am learning as I go. My #4 cuts well enough that I have no plans to replace it. Actually, they all do but the L-N planes are definitely better. I haven't used any brands other than Stanley Bailey and L-N yet.I'm also a firm believer in technique over equipment. There is a point, however, where some equipment reaches the end of its usefulness and something better is needed. Sure, a pro golfer could use clubs right off the rack but clubs that have been custom fitted will make a big difference. Same applies to a master craftsman- they have the technique that takes years to achieve and can't be replaced by better tools. It's easier to do a bad job with great tools than a great job.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Fair enough - and I'm not accomplished enough to comment, but my first plane was a Record, but a recent one. I couldn't get the thing to work well, although it was ok for fitting doors (the kind you walk through). I also had a block plane I treasured.
I had no idea the sole wasn't flat (nor how to flatten it), and all the other things that can made a plane not work well. I didn't know block planes had adjustable mouths (not mine).
In any event, I made a Shepard in January, which got me interested in planes in general. I bought a Lee Valley block plane, the most expensive hand tool I had ever owned at that point. I couldn't believe the difference in performance. The next week I bought a Lee Vally BU Smoother and Jack. I still am awed by what I can do with those tools.
I read up on tuning and sharpening planes. I completely reworked both the Record and the old block plane. They work better, but not well.
So, my tools are certainly better than my skills, but i doubt i could improve skills with bad tools.
<<I completely reworked both the Record and the old block plane. They work better, but not well.>>My 2p:1. You can spend a great deal of money on tools, especially hand planes, but you don't need to.2. The thing that makes a tool expensive is generally a) the amount of hand work done in making it and b) its collectability. Bridge City scores high on both fronts.3. The recently made Record plane is an unfortunate example. Neither Stanley nor Record has made very good planes (with a few exceptions) in the past ~40-50 years. You can but prewar Stanleys (or Unions or Millers Falls, etc) for very reasonable prices. I bought ~1890 Stanley #5 jack for $35 and fettled it, and it's a sweet tool. I own LV and LN planes, but my go to jack is the Stanley. I have a ~ 50 yo Craftsman #4 that was my Dad's, in it is a fine plane, properly tuned.4. When I bought my #5 Stanley, there was also a ~1900 Bedrock 605. It was in good condition- and was priced at $175. It was a nice plane, but I don't think it was five times as good as the #5- yet it was priced as such because it is more collectible. It is true that the Bedrocks had a fine frog design, but all of the prewar Stanleys (#4, #5, #7 etc) had a hand machined and fitted frog, and all are better than the Anants you can buy today for the same amount of $.5. There are reasons why Stanley made hundreds of thousands of Bailey design planes, and there are reasons why so many of them survive and are in use today. Good design, careful workmanship and high quality are those reasons.My point is that you can get good quality used tools (my standard crosscut saw is a 60 yo Disston #4 that cost me $15 to buy and $15 to have professionally sharpened). It is probably better to buy them used and recondition them yourself, than to try to breathe quality into a new tool that never had it. If you tune up a good old tool, or buy a good new one, you will have the pleasure of using it for a lifetime. And if your joints are not as neat as you'd like or your finished surfaces are not as smooth, you won't have to wonder whether your tool is up to the job- you can focus on your technique and improve.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
If whispery shavings are the only reason for owning a $1500 BC plane, Then you definitely payed way to much. I have a L-N 4 1/2 that'll shave .002 from curly maple and some rehab'd Baileys that will cut pretty damn thin shavings too. But all of this is besides the point. I too want to know if the people who would spend that much for a tool actually use them in their shops or display them somewhere.
Don't get me wrong, I carry a BC 2x4 al saddle square in my apron, Use their dovetail saddle square to. And a couple of others.
Big,
Actually, I don't have a $1500 plane, nor do I want one. I was making a joke...
My favorite plane is a coffin smoother I made myself in 1990, from a scrap of 12/4 mahogany. I knew it would be too soft to hold up, so I laminated a scrap of 1/4" african ebony onto the sole. Put an old Ohio Tool Co iron in it. Total cost out of pocket was $5 for the iron, (if you don't count the labor) This spring, I finally wore out the old iron. I have more money in the Hock replacement than I do in the rest of the plane, but I'm not complaining. If it lasts as long as the antique one, it'll get me close to retirement age. I'm not really into measuring the thickness of shavings, more into getting them onto the floor as quickly as possible.
It comes to planes, as the old song goes, diffrent strokes (bad pun) for diffrent folks.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray,
I'm not into measuring shavings either. It happened as a result of what a buddy said about the shavings that new plane was happily making. I was impressed by the miniscule number then, but what I care about is the finished project and it's appearance. For my money a hand planed or scraped piece of figured wood can't be matched by a similar piece that has been sanded. And I have proven that point several times in my shop.
And I am by no means a hand tool purist either.
But I too am waiting to hear from someone who would actually pay that much for a hand plane. Do they actually use the damn thing? Or, as the rest of us suspect, just carress and admire the tool, bragging to their friends how much much they spent for that piece of art? The watch continues.
Can I join in, or is the team already chosen and I shall have to play somewhere else?
Frankly, I am dismayed at the tone of this thread. I wrote a response yesterday, then deleted it as it sounded puritanical (and, no doubt, this one will as well). But BigK, your comments like others here - while they may not have been intended so - come across to me as prejudiced, and this is unseemly.
There is a divide between the apparent "Haves" and "Have Nots" - those that purchase expensive handtools and those that purchase cheaply. The implication is that those who have expensive tools are not the real woodworkers, and only have the tools to flaunt.
It is all relative. An LN or LV handplane may be out of the reach for some, just as the BCTW, Anderson, or Holtey is out of reach for others. Gee, even a $20 Stanley is out of the reach for some. So what the thread is about is envy and put-downs. This is not a good thing.
As it happens, I do not particularly like the aesthetics of BCTW. They are too glitsy for my taste. Nevertheless, I have heard very positive comments about the variable bed smoother from some sources, and there is no doubt a market for these. If I were able, I would rather fondle a Holtey or a Anderson than the BCTW designs. I have a newly renovated Spiers that is wonderful to use. I am in the process of reviewing a Marcou smoother, and I can tell you that it gives me a warm tingle to use since the results it produces are second to none. Does this make me a plane snob? I have a very wide range of handplanes - some I made, some I restored, some I purchased new, other are the fruits of feedback to manufacturers and written reviews. Basically, I just love using a handtool. Full stop. Power tools don't do this for me. I have the best basics I can afford but these are way below the standard and costs of many powertool users as my money gets prioritized elsewhere. I am an amateur so time is less relevant and I can afford to prioritize handtools.
Does anyone use high end handplanes? Sure they do. Many do, and you do not hear them boasting of it (except to give credit to the maker). Of the obvious users, I see Chris Schwartz (editor of PW) regularly uses planes by Anderson and others. I see Garrett Hack uses his Holtey #98. Many here and elsewhere use Norris and Spier infills. Hands up who has a LV, LN, Shepherd ....? Who buys planes by Konrad Sauer (Sauer & Steiner), Ian Dalziel, Philip Marcou, and other contemporary planemakers? Many must do. They make simply beautiful work. No doubt some (the majority? Possibly - I really do not know but, like you, I am curious) purchase these as investments and they are not used. Still, this is not a reason to belittle these owners. Are you also going to cast your critical comments at those who buy shares or other investments? Why stop at handplanes? Should we not include anyone who has a luxury anything? OK, but then who is to define what is or is not "luxury"? There is simply no place for thinking this way. It is just jealousy and bigotry.
So we really should get back to the original topic - is the BCTW plane a good user or not?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/27/2006 2:22 am ET by derekcohen
That was most succintly put.I am afraid the question will go unanswered as it seems that nobody on Knots has one of these planes and possibly if there was such a person he/she would be wary of admitting this to the assembled legions of Knotheads, for fear of being stoned as a CROW.
As for me , I am confident that from what I can see that plane would work nicely for the , er Gentleman woodworker/maker of bespoke furniture , and also be justifiably attractive to crows.Certainly if I had some shillings I would want to have that plane-to use too.
I am wandering if folk have seen the promotional video that can be downloaded.Philip Marcou
The thing I like most about Knots is we can meander through the sawdust and get info on high end audio but , most of all, on marital matters. I started this thread expecting a few responses but...... The only thing missing is some sheep info from the "down under" crowd. Love it!
<<The only thing missing is some sheep info from the "down under" crowd. >>'Fraid I'm not from "down-under," but it is my understanding that the Kiwis produce the best-tasting sheep in the world....Cheers!James
Arguable about taste, but the wool rots in the wet before its shorn.
They can play rugby though - even in the fog.
> The only thing missing is some sheep info from the "down under" crowd <
You want to watch it, you guys, the down under crowd is getting bigger! And we're touchy about sheep jokes. Unless the butt of the joke is an Aussie, then it's OK.
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edit: Sorry Derek!
Edited 5/30/2006 8:17 am ET by Malcolm
Hey, no joke intended; just commenting on how wide afield some of these threads can get. Always glad to hear from the down under folk, been there and love it.
Hehe I liked it down there so much, I brought one back. Aussie that is... our eighth anniversary is next week. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
WE can get back to the original question, if you want. No big deal.
I don't beleive that this is a case of haves vs. havenots. But since you seem interested in classifying us, I am a have. I beleive in owning tools that perform very well for the job that they were designed to do. I am not a hand tool purist either as I use both in my humble shop, each either excelling at what I ask it to do or being replaced with one that will perform as expected. But neither will I willingly use a tool that looks as if it has been dragged behind my van for the last 6 months, as my prejudices expect that tools performance to be appropriately affected.
As for your implied insults, whatever. Will a $1500 BCTW plane outperform a $450 LN plane? What about a $7200 Holtey ( L3840 as listed )? For the price it had better be one hell of a margin of improvement to justify the expense. One that I don't beleive even exists, But perhaps beauty is part of the equation that I don't quite grasp. I am quite happy with ordinarily handsome as long as it performs. In my collection I also own many $35-90 Baileys and Bedrocks that also are just plain handsome and perform flawlessly. Some that were absolutely diamonds in the rough when I found them, yet with the appropriate fettling, TLC, and perhaps a new parts are also tireless partners.
Have I ever had the joy of using a $1500 or$7200 plane? NO! But then I haven't tried heroin or many other highly addictive drugs either. And I'm not interested in trying out either one. NO! I can afford to purchase those high-dollar tools if I so choose. I just don't beleive that they will do the job any better or more efficiently for the expense. In fact, I personally question the efficiency of that adjustable bed plane. Especially since John Economaki has made the statement that his $1500 plane is a veritable value since it can do the jobs of every other plane avalable. I personally beleive that John was truly reaching with that boast, and as such perhaps he invited some of the criticsm that is floating around right now.
Don't get me wrong. I am glad that John E., Holtey, and all of the rest have been able to find a niche market and obviously appear to be making a decent living doing what they do. Good for them. More power to them. However, with regards to the question posed by "my side", we have yet to hear from anyone who has purchased and uses the BCTW adjustable plane. Any takers?
Since we're talking about handplanes as an investments - something that made me laugh out loud when I read it - I'd like to point out the obvious.
$14,452.88, a figure quoted earlier in this thread, if invested in quality growth stock mutual funds in the United States, will grow into approximately $150,000 in twenty years, if left alone and assuming that the United States' economy grows at the same rate that it has for the last 80 years for the next 20 years.
(almost the peformance of a really good real estate buy one of my friends made a few years back)
$14,452.88 invested into a plane,...will grow into,....a chunk of metal that shaves thin layers of wood, albeit a shiny one made by a "famous name" maker. As far as what it would bring on ebay or as a classified in Fine Tool Journal in 20 years, who knows? I'm betting against $150K, though.
Now lets see,...which one is a really good investment?
Just thought I would point that out. Carry on.
Ed (Just say I'm wonderin' if a Holtey will fit in my safe deposit box)
> talking about handplanes as an investments <
No-one said good investments!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
I can just visualize the conversation now,
"No, honey, this is an investment. Really, it is. Yes, I know I said that the Harley-Davidson was an investment, but this is different. This time I've got it all figured out. Matter of fact, I'm funding both of our Roth IRAs in infill smoothers this year! Yes indeed. Also I'm buying users off the 'bay and depreciating them on a 7 year tools and equipment schedule. Really, I've got it all figured out! The IRS will never know what hit them!."
WE can get back to the original question, if you want. No big deal. I don't beleive that this is a case of haves vs. havenots. But since you seem interested in classifying us, I am a have.
BigK
I think that you have misunderstood my message. My "classifiying" of the contrubutions was an observation of a polarized position taken by many, one that I view as expressing a bigotted theme. My request was that contributers show tolerance - the real classification is done by those that look down on and make derogatory remarks about others who are different from themselves. The danger is that when a group appear to agree with one another, it gives the impression that their point of view is "correct". We all have learned a little from history about that particular trap!
Since we're talking about handplanes as an investments - something that made me laugh out loud when I read it - I'd like to point out the obvious.
Ed
I do this all the time - make investments that only I see as valuable!! They take a lot of fancy talk to justify them to my wife! Either she is pretty thick, or just very tolerant ...... I think it is the latter. You know, "Honey, buying this Lie-Veritas tote warmer now, as it is on Special, is going to save so much money .. they are sure to go back up in price". "Honey, BMW hold their resale value so much better than Ford" (actually, I did buy a '57 Porsche 356 nine years ago now and it has trippled in value ... forgetting, of course, the $$$$ it has cost to restore it because I have done all the work myself and not had to lay out big sums all at once). Are some handplanes good investments? Yes they are. The Sandusky plough plane sold for over $100K last year. There are many serious investers out there. Like anything, you need to know your stuff. Would I put my retirement funds into tools? Nah, I am not that deluded - in any event, even if I enjoy them as works of art, I like to use all my tools. Nothing of mine would remain Collector material for long.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Let's cut to the chase, shall we? It seems that you find my opinion somewhat offensive. Even went so far as to accuse me of prejudice, jealousy, and bigotry. All very serious charges indeed. I have gone back and reread this thread several times, and to be quite honest I don't have a damn clue what in the hell you are talking about. I don't appreciate you accusing me these charges, think that you are way out of line mister on this one.
I have yet to hear any positive comments about the new BCTW adjustable plane, but I have read something that appeared a little less that glowing earlier in this thread. Your claim of hearing very positive comments are the first to appear here. Yet you offer no specifics, instead you wax poetically about Holtey, Marcou, Sauer, etc. as if associating them with John Economaki will lend reverance to his claims. Cut the hearsay, I want facts. If this were a court of law, your hearsay would have been stricken from the records.
I, and apparently many others, would like to hear from someone who has actually bought and used the tool in question. Is it actually worth $1500? Is it really an acceptable replacement for all of our other planes? Is it really more efficient to own just one plane that requires an adjustment to perform all of the functions of other planes? Are we, and so much of woodworking history, wrong to own many different specialized tools? ( These are all claims that were made, albeit some were inherent, by John Economaki.) Inquiring minds want to know. Do I have a prejudice? Probably. But I have yet to read or hear anything to suggest that I might be wrong.
Derek, I don't know where you get off with your charges, and frankly I don't care. It is my opinion that you are way out of line and I don't appreciate it one bit. If you find my writings that offensive then I suggest that you don't read whatever it is that I have to say. Please do not delude yourself and think that I have an attitude because I can safely hide behind my computer. I tend to express my opinions straight up, face to face,in real life.
BigK
It is not my intension to start or maintain a fight. I have no interest in competition or scoring points. But I will answer out of respect for you.
You asked, I have gone back and reread this thread several times, and to be quite honest I don't have a damn clue what in the hell you are talking about.
BigK, your comments were the final straw in a thread in which the comments had become crass and bigotted. In fact, my response was not really aimed at you, but all of those contributors who made similar remarks. What comments? Well, comments that effectively said "we are better than them". Here is what you said ...
"But I too am waiting to hear from someone who would actually pay that much for a hand plane. Do they actually use the damn thing? Or, as the rest of us suspect, just carress and admire the tool, bragging to their friends how much much they spent for that piece of art? The watch continues".
Not as bad as earlier remarks but, as I said, the final straw.
Now you state (in the post above, which is directed at myself), "I have yet to hear any positive comments about the new BCTW adjustable plane, but I have read something that appeared a little less that glowing earlier in this thread. Your claim of hearing very positive comments are the first to appear here. Yet you offer no specifics"
MMmmm. No one asked me for specifics. But since you do now, here is an extract from a recent planemakers gathering - not just any planemakers, but some of the better known and most highly respected planemakers around. The proceedings were reported on by Ron Hock (of Hock blades), whose opinion I respect. So when he said ....
Performance bottom line: every plane I tried made thin, lacy shavings and left a smooth, satiny finish. Bevel up or down, a well made plane with a sharp blade will perform as intended. Some were easier or harder to push, some fit my hand better or worse, some handled difficult grain better, but they all worked remarkably and were a joy to use. And they were all so beautiful they'll bring tears to your eyes. Even the new variable-pitch plane from BCT worked well and completely vanquished my concerns about its appearance of excessive gizmocity. .....
... then I tend to believe him.
Is that what you want to know BigK (what is your name?)?
Regards from Perth
Derek
I haven't seen this much emotion since the EZ Smart/ Festool threads.
<<"haven't seen this much emotion since the EZ Smart/ Festool threads.">>You are right. Perhaps we could discuss less inflammatory subjects- like religion or politics...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"Next on Knots Landing: Daughters of Right-Wing Fundies that Get Abortions"
Wanna incorporate religion, sex and a mystery all in one? "Dear God, I'm pregnant. Who's the father?"
Well, I have no experience with BCTW's new plane, however based on my previous experiences with the company and their products, I will steer clear of it.I have two words for Bridge City products: pretty.crappy.Let me run by all of you some of my problems with their products. When I first saw their tools, some 10 years back, I thought they looked beautiful (which, for the most part, I still do think) and well-made. The company has always struck me a bit negatively however because of their slick advertising. I tend to belive quality products pretty much speak for themselves. So back then, over a few months, I acquired the following BCTW items:- 14" adjustable try square
- combo square
- trammel set
- transfer bevel
- saddle square
- angle masterLater, another carpenter gave me his BCTW MG marking guage with twin beams. at first I was stunned he would just give me such an expensive tool - later, I understood why he found it easy to give away. I should also mention that on one job site I worked on there was another fellow with quite a pile of Bridge City tools and he had similar problems to me. I realized it was more than just bad luck on my part.Anyway, let's walk through each of these tools:The 14" adjustable try square seemed like a great idea. When new, I checked it for square, found it a little out, and was able to true the allen head grub screws to tune it up. I noted that the mechanism to do that seemed very stiff, but it worked. Sure enough, one day the square took a trip to the shop floor by accident. I went to re-square it, and again found the mechanism stiff but it did work. However after that, all it took was pretty much a stiff breeze or an unfriendly glance and the square would go out of square. It wouldn't hold its setting at all. I returned it and they did end up replacing the adjuster mechanism, and I still use this square today, albeit very gingerly.The combo square was simply not square right out of the box, and I sent it back twice. Each time it was 're-trued', it still wasn't square, so I gave up. The fellow I mentioned above with the other BCTW tools had mostly smaller squares, and none of his were square either. We sent our stuff back as a group. Also, during this episode, the repair person went away on a 3 week holiday, and didn't notify anyone at the company about my repair. So, though I needed this tool on the jobsite, it languished in their facility - in all it was out of my toolset for 6 weeks, which sucked, since i only expected it to be away for 10 days max.. And then came back still not square - a bit annoying. Further, the ebony triangular piece glued on the side of the square fell off after a few months. I got rid of the combo square and have had great satisfaction with Mitutoyo and Starrett products since.The trammel set is okay, and beautiful. However, the measuring rule which comes attached to the beam is somewhat of a useless add-on, and it came unglued about 3 months in. Also, the trammel points are supposedly designed so that a pencil can be swapped in for a point - in reality, the hole is machined slightly too large and I haven't been able to find a pencil yet that fits such that it can be held firmly. I use my trammel set regularly, but only with the metal points.Transfer bevel: a great idea poorly executed again - though real pretty. The problem with the tool is two-fold. The shaping of the brass casing was uneven near the hinge and required careful filework to make it straight (so that it would register properly to straightedges and other tool surfaces), and the hinge, having only a single leaf on each arm, cannot be easily tightened down sufficiently with the knob to reliably hold its setting. If I treat the tool with kid gloves and, you know, avoid breathing on it while I use it (I'm not streching the truth that much here) it can be used. However a simple re-design with doubled leaves on each side would make it perfect, and I wouldn't need to crank down on the tightening knob like I was in some sort of arm-wrestling competition. I wish another company would start making these, or gol'durn it, I might have to make my own.Saddle Square: a simple tool that sorta works, but rarely use it much. A square that is square and a striking knife are my usual choice to acurately mark out.Angle Master: supposedly accurate to 1/500 of a degree or something like that, but I have little confidence in the tool to be this accurate. The tool can be set either by moving these little brass inserts to particular settings (inserts that are held by a rubber o-ring, and thus are a bit loosy-goosy when put into their respective holes). Since there is so much play with the brass setting points, how can anyone have confidence that using them with a rule to establish a particular measure will give an accurate result? I instead use the metal pins fixed to the arms where you apply a caliper to a fixed measurement given in a book they provide, and it seems to work fine that way, though again, I am not confident about the accuracy. I note that in the new version of this tool they have done away with the brass setting pins and it comes with a caliper attached to it.The marking guage. The tool, once again looks way cool, but doesn't perform worth a damn. The cutting wheels were dull and barely marked the wood, so I ordered a replacement set. These came and were similarly dull. I happened to read around the same time an article in Australian Wood Review, in which they did a comparison of various marking gages and had the exact same problem with the two BCTW products in the review, and were told by the company that getting sharp wheels was a bit of a "hit and miss affair" or something to that effect. Further, the arms of the tool are chunky and the cutting/marking wheels are recessed back from the end of the beams, so it is very hard to see exactly where on the material you are setting the tool to mark - a lot of unneccessary trial and error is involved. I sold this tool after trying it once or twice, and have ben much more happy with the Glen Drake Titemark version of this type of marking gage - a far better design with sharp cutting/marking wheels.From my experiences then, I have little faith in the company or it's products. I figure if they make a tool that doesn't actually define squareness, or is too complex, ot will probably be acceptable. Really, these are products for the collector who doesn't use the tools. They look great in a display cabinet. As someone who uses tools regularly and is very willing to pay for quality, their products have been quite disappointing for me. I also find it a bit ironic that John Economaki teaches design classes, when the fundamental problem with his company's tools is that the design does not result in good function.A final point I would like to make is that because BCTW makes things in batch runs, it is often the case that something you might want from them is out of production for lengthy periods. I was looking to get a spare trammel point at one time to do ellipses, but in a two year period they didn't produce any, so I gave up.
I must say that I've NEVER seen a BCTW tool on a jobsite in use by tradesmen.
Mind if I ask what type of project was being completed?
Edited 6/2/2006 11:22 am ET by BossCrunk
The project was a 'no budget' residential compound that took 7 years to build. Several finish carpenters on site had BCTW products - using them however, was another matter. They are perhaps best left in the toolbox.
No doubt a gold-plated group of trim boys.
If they pulled some that ebony and bronze stuff out on the jobs I've seen they would have had to fight their way off the jobsite.
You must have a glass belly button, to see well enough to fight....
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Not fight me... the other trades... I was the GC.....
Still surprised to know that talented finish guys had brass and tropical wood squares and marking implements that were no good. You'd figure that guys good enough to be selected for a job that important wouldn't be fighting their tools. I've seen plenty of Starrett and maybe some Lee Valley stuff but never any Bridge City on a jobsite. Not saying it didn't happen,,, just a little surprised,,,
You have obviously more experience with them than anyone else and your comment about being more hype than substance seems born out by your experience. In this case , slick brochures may be their highest quality item. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Hey Derek, whatever. Are you a schoolteacher or something? Quit trying to grade me. I will not change what I want/have to say nor will I change how I say it. You obviously don't care for how I express myself, that is your perogative if you so wish. I am not going to change anything to please you or to bring myself up to your standards.
"No one asked me for specifics...". What were you reading, huh? I am not the only one to have been asking repeatadly in this thread for someone who has actually bought the damn thing. Next time I'll be sure to put my request on a 2x4 to smack you with.
To my friends I am Mark. Understand that I don't consider you a friend, okay? Now go find someone else to play with as you are really starting to seriously annoy me.
Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to add a couple of things to this discussion-
I do think that it is worthy-of-note that almost every BCTW tool -- planes, squares, etc. -- that one sees on eBay, are in new/unused condition, suggesting that they are generally bought for reasons other than being used as woodworking tools ... or perhaps more carefully worded and considered; the BCTW tools that find their way into the re-sale market aren't being used as w.w. tools.
I DO have some BCTW tools. The plane that I have is a (blemished) half-price low-angle block plane. It is absolutley a top-notch performer ... and rugged enough to stand up to lots o' use. I don't own a tool that works better than this plane (and yes, I do own LNs and LVs ... and a Festool power tool or two). That being said- the plane's blade (the 'iron') back was polished to a mirror finish at the factory. BCTW plane irons barely cost more than other premium manufacturers' offerings and therefore, when one considers the value of a polished back, or rather the value of being spared the pain-and-suffering involved in mirror-polishing the back, I find them to be a nearly-stunning value. Absolutely.
Using a flawlessly executed double-dovetailed block plane (with sharp iron!) merely adds to the pleasure of using handtools IMHO.
It may not function *better* than any of my other (premium) planes, but the gestalt of using a tool that is beautiful -- AND a perfectly executed example of an ambitious design -- as well as being a top notch performer ... well, it only adds to what already is glorious time spent in the workshop.
Btw- wonderful post Derek (per usual :-))
-Peter T.
Would you believe I only paid $90.00 for my house. Of course I had to move it off the interstate. Prices are all out of whack.
$14,452.88 for one plane.
For what it's worth, the last wood show I was at LN was selling an entire workshop kit for around $10,000 Cdn... I don't remember what was in it exactly, but I believe it was their entire tool line at the time...
It looks like it's that adjustable pitch frog that drives the cost.
adjustable pitch frog??
As in High and LOW pitched 'RIBBIT"?
I've seen the flyer. It seems to me that it's just too complicated. I don't think that I want my planes to be so adjustable. Actually, I like having several planes that are designated for specific tasks. I've gotten to know their characteristics. They're like old friends. Who can be friendly with something that can change it's personality at the drop of a hat?
It's another new thing. I think the woodworking world is becoming ever so full of them. I do adapt, but simple is often better.
They're like old friends. Who can be friendly with something that can change it's personality at the drop of a hat?I guess you are not married...Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
I am very happily married. I presume that you are not.
sap,
Q: How many women with pms does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: 3
Q: Why does it take 3?
A: IT JUST DOES, ALRIGHT??!!
Cheers,
Ray
Happily married 10 years this summer. Sorry if my humor was off target with you, no harm meant. Next time I will have to remember to put in the proper emoticon for "tongue in cheek" instead of the one for "missed the mark".Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Well, I'm happily married and I think what you said was funny. Heck, my wife would laugh too, she's married to a human being too.
I love this interchange from the movie Species, discussing why they chose to make a potentially dangerous creature female:
"We decided to make it female, so it would be more docile and controllable."
"More docile and controllable, eh? You guys don't get out much."
Heh. I love my wife very much, but she is neither docile nor controllable nor predictable. If that's what you want, get a robot. Humans are much more interesting, though.
EDIT: Corrected movie quote, added link.
My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Edited 5/24/2006 2:22 pm by John_D
Thanks for the confirmation. Some times I am the only one laughing. My wife laughs at me all the time.Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Andy,
Yow! I used to know a gal whose personality changed about every 28 days...for 3 or 4 days. Ya learn to keep your head down.
Cheers,
Ray
See, that is where I was going but decided to start out slow and see how it went.Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Andy,
Part of my fascination with my wife of 33 yrs, is that she is still full of surprises, mostly good ones.
On the other hand, she says she can read me like a book. Lucky for me, I'm not an almanac-- or she would want a new one every year!
Somewhere, I read that the difference between men and women is that a man marries a woman thinking she'll never change, and that a woman marries a man thinking she can get him to change...
Cheers,
Ray
I would assist you by recommending that LN planes will meet the needs of any woodworker who spends his time using his tools instead of just admiring them. There is a scary amount of the phenomenon creeping into this category that reminds me of the Harley-Davidson craze of a few years ago. Nothing wrong with having nice things, but they are often bought to satisfy a different set of needs that goes beyond just getting a job done. So to me, Bridge City tools are the "trailer queens" of this category....meant more to be looked at than used.
I completely agree with you on the value of Lie-Nielsen, though I have friends who think I'm nuts for paying the price. I enjoy supporting a company that makes great products built to last and perform. Without a market, they don't exist (and they're not THAT insanely priced). That brings me to Bridge City. The company has been around for almost 25 years, so I assume they've identified a market for their stuff. And, I don't see anything wrong with targeting guys with enough money and desire to own super expensive hand tools -- free country and all that. I'm sure many of their customers are collectors, and their different set of needs (owning elegant, well made and expensive tools for the sake of owning them) are well met by Bridge City's offerings. And they also offer other nice tools that are more affordable to the average guy. So, while I won't be spending $1,500 on one of their planes, I say, "Good for Bridge City." I hope they're still selling wicked expensive stuff 25 years from now. The first really nice hand tool I ever purchased was a Bridge City tri square. I think it was about 60 bucks at the time, which seemed like $1,500 to me.
This company has come up a few times, and I've yet to see anyone here post that they've purchased Bridge City's most expensive planes. I wonder who they DO sell them to. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Excellent point, but as I said, they've been around for almost 25 years, so... I worked for a manufacturer of high-end audio and home theater components for six years. We made a pair of amplifiers that retailed for $33,000 and a CD transport/processor combination that sold for $25,000 -- and we had a market! There are people with money that just want good things.
One time I saw an ad for an audiophile knob for stereo gear. It was turned wood, and was said to reduce vibrations or something, and IIRC the price was in excess of $1000. The page selling it was very beautifully done, and it was at a site that seemed to be actually selling gear.
I said and still believe that it was a hoax, but some folks I showed it to thought it was genuinely trying to sell the things. I guess if you sell one, you've paid for the time you spent writing all that horsepuckey; meantime, you've had a good laugh.
EDIT: OK, I took a minute and found that page. I misremembered the price, it's only $485. Check it out.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Products like this made credibility for the "real high-end companies" a tougher sell to the "casual fan"-- though maybe a Krenov or Maloof knob on my pre amp would improve the sound. The company I worked for made really great stuff, that was truly worth more -- that much more was in the wallet of the beholder -- diminishing returns etc. But, if you have the time someday, drop by a specialty audio/home theater dealer (not Circuit City type joints and the like) and audition some really nice stuff -- you WILL hear the difference. There was/is a company that markets wooden pucks designed to be placed on components to dampen vibration and so improve sound quality -- and there is a high-end speaker manufacturer that routinely poked fun at the concept by placing m&ms on their speakers and claiming the candy enhanced the sound of their product.
Who did you work for?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Who did you work for?"Madrigal Audio Labs. We manufacured and distributed Mark Levinson and Proceed electronic components and Revel loudspeakers. Our corporate parent closed the company three years ago and moved the brands to another division.
Edited 5/24/2006 5:31 am ET by Mike_B
I wondered if that was the company you were with. Levinson equipment was phenomenal... was out of my budget, but my ears could tell you what it was.
That and old MacIntosh tube's... man, what a sound.
Interesting analogy with the BC planes. I have their flyer on my desk beside me this morning in fact. Neat plane, but I've never handled one. Can't provide any comments to the original poster.
michael~Michael
I had a pair of McIntosh 75 amps- my Conrad Johnson MV 45 was much better. Ironically, I traded a single Mac 75 for the Conrad Johnson and a $200 store credit.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Sail,
I posted some time ago about this plane-I wanted to hear from anyone who owned and used one: no response so can reasonably assume that the Knots fraternity is not the market that this product is planned for. And planned it is, you can be sure, as businessmen/manufacturers/manufacturing artists such as J.Economides are not investing capital in willynilly ventures for no reason.
I believe that plane is not overpriced at $1500 odd. People should stop bleating about the cost of better planes-everything is relative so if one has no money a $100 plane is expensive. It is better to satisfy oneself that the product is value for money or not. I would be more satisfied with an "exotic" plane for example than a painting of not even any sentimental value just hanging on a wall gathering flydust.
No need to figure out if one is thrice as good as another- is a Rolex Submariner ten times "better" than an Omega Seamaster?
I suppose I was suggesting they were overpriced but I really wanted to know whether anyone had owned one and what were the features or characteristics that would cause one to buy a Bridge City for 3 times the price of a L-N. As some have suggested , perhaps having people's jaws drop when you say you have a plane for which you paid $1500 is worth it; those folks probably conclude , " He/she must be a really good woodworker" even though it just sits on the shelf.
I get great results from my $40 ebay jack plane with a $35 Hock blade. Disclaimer: I've never driven a LN plane around, so I don't know how it would perform for me.
This whole thread could be found word for word on a car forum. "Has anyone purchased the Bugatti Crystal Carriage? It goes for half a mil." "No, but I do have the Bentley Bavarian Motor Car, and it's really nice." "I've got a Toyota Tercel, and it gets me to work just fine."
Yes, but your Chauffeur will flatly refuse to drive the Toyota Tercel-may even resign. Now why is that?Philip Marcou
We are on the same page, more or less.Philip Marcou
Metod, greetings to you. Yes indeed I could draw a great satisfaction from impressing some visitors to my home with my artistic collection-however it is not hanging on the walls, or being abused by flys(;).
Seriously I would like to get to grips with that Economopoulos Plane-just like Sailalex I have questions going unanswered . I did happen upon an article in which a plane makers convention was discussed, and a few derogatory comments were made about the plane-by people who should have known better (I think), and by people who had not even used the thing.Anyway the thread has progressed in an entertaining fashion so this is good.
I am to harp on about that plane no more, lest I become like that fellow and the drill press.....
:) thanks
I don't know anything about baseball, but I would be willing to contribute to a fund for a glass belly button for him.
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