Hi Folks,
I was reading the Cabinet Saw Reviews discussion and there was an post about this interesting riving knife, found at http://shop.walnutacrewoodworking.com/product.sc?categoryId=1&productId=6.
There is a Unisaw version and I am more than just casually interested in it. Does anyone have any experience with this riving knife? I’m also concerned that it is made of aluminum instead of steel.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
I've got one ordered for my Grizzly saw. It should be here today. I'll let you know how it works. The design for the Unisaw is different though, so my impressions won't carry over..
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,
Great! I'm thinking seriously about pulling the trigger VERY SOON. It's the first one I've seen that looks like it will work.
Anxious to learn of your experience with it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I received the BORK riving knife for my Grizzly 1023 saw last night and went out to my shop to install it.
It comes in a package about the size of a regular hard cover book, and the materials inside are few and lightweight.
A first impression might be that the product is overpriced. However, the guy selling it did come up with the idea, which has to to be worth something, and the riving knife does work. And, in the end, being able to retrofit your existing tablesaw with a riving knife for a hundred bucks seems like a pretty good deal.
The installation on a Unisaw might be different than what I experienced on my saw. But it took me just over an hour to get it in place and pretty well dialed in. One kind of disconcerting thing is that the U-bolt that holds the holding arm onto my saw winds up about 1/16 of an inch away from the side of the sawblade. That's pretty close. However, it also should be noted that the U-bolt is not anywhere near the blade's teeth. It's closer to the center hole of the blade than to the teeth on the rim. If it did somehow slip loose it would just contact the side of the blade (and probably make a pretty good screeching sound).
There is some flex in the components of this product, and the riving knife itself is made of very lightweight aluminum. However, in case of contact with the blade, it is probably better for the riving knife to made of a material that won't damage or break off the blade's teeth. And then again, how sturdy does this stuff have to be? As I understand it, the primary purpose of the riving knife is to prevent the stock being cut from contacting the back teeth on the sawblade. And this product looks as though it will do that adequately.
Now, there are some quirks about this setup that make it different than what you'd find on a saw designed right from the git with a riving knife in mind. The blade on the saws you and I own travels up and down in an arc. There is a pivot point in the trunnion and arbor assembly, and the blade moves up and down through an arc regulated by that pivot. I guess saws designed for riving knives have an arbor that travels straight up and down, so the riving knife stays at a consistent distance above the blade.
Because the arbor swings in an arc, as the blade is raised the BORK rises higher behind the blade's teeth. This is hard to visualize (well, it was for me anyway), but it becomes immediately clear once the unit is on the saw. So, there is a screw knob that holds the riving knife in place, and that also allows quick and easy adjustment of the knife height. Actually, the knife height behind the blade doesn't make much of a difference when making a through cut. But for non-through cuts you can lower the knife's height to below the top of the blade's teeth in about three seconds.
The riving knife can (and must!) be adjusted in an XYZ axis in order to align perfectly with the blade, and there is a clever arrangement to do that. However, these adjustments were pretty time consuming. You have to keep putting on and taking off the blade, and the access under the saw's table is pretty tight. Leaning over and screwing around with all that gave me a sore back this morning. But I kept at it and have it dialed in very well, and shouldn't have to do it again. If someone were not mechanically minded - and patient - this aspect of the installation might prove a challenge. But again, since this is a retrofit situation, you have to expect to deal with some complexity and fiddling around.
I should mention that the riving knife tilts with the blade, so it can be used on bevel cuts. It wouldn't be strong enough to hang a blade guard on though, either for safety or dust collection. That's why I also ordered the Penn State tablesaw blade guard unit that was on sale last week for about $150.00. I need to make some new zero clearance inserts, too, because the riving knife comes out of the table very much closer to the blade than did the saw's original (bad) splitter unit.
To sum up, I think the BORK is a reasonable value to upgrade an existing saw so that it has a workable riving knife. It may seem pricey at first, but compared to buying an entire new saw in order to get one with a riving knife, it is a relative bargain. The primary compromise between this and a saw designed with a riving knife from the beginning (aside from the sturdiness of the assembly compared to the riving knife on a new saw, which I can't speak to as I haven't seen one) are the few height adjustments you'll need to do to the knife for non-through cuts. And those can be easily and quickly done by removing the zero clearance insert and loosening the screw knob.
I hope this helps. Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
"It wouldn't be strong enough to hang a blade guard on though, either for safety or dust collection".... Zolton
I would pass personally in that case even though a great idea on the part of the guy that came up with it but... I would ask him why he didn't used steel machined to a few .000 narrower than teeth kerf as Lee Styrone does on his excellently machined Shark Guards?
Regards...
Sarge..
Hey Sarge,
Zolton described the BORK better than I could. He also hit the nail on the head re: splitter blade material. The forces on a splitter that is properly aligned are minimal, especially if the splitter is close to the saw blade.
I chose aluminum because the BORK blade has to be adjustable/removable. One instance of forgetting to tighten the adjustment knob and the splitter blade could contact the saw blade. Again, Zolton had it right; less potential damage and injury. I consulted with Lee Styron when I was developing the Push/Pull splitter and we agreed that aluminum was the way to go.
Bob Ross/WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
I have to go to a funeral shortly Bob.. but will get back with you on why I prefer an over-head guard of some type. What you have done you have done well and I am not so sure a crown guard could not be attached even on aluminum?
Again I will get back to you with a picture of what I refer to and if you are interested we can discuss it. Many don't run over-heard guards but I personally feel they are important for both up-ward launch from kick-back and dust control. But.. regardless, what you have done is an excellent idea and for most a distinct advantage so credit where credit is due.
Well done and good luck marketing it....
Sarge..
Edited 12/9/2008 1:31 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I'm sorry for your loss Sarge.
I totally agree about the guard and strongly suggest the use of one with the BORK. I use the shop made version that was in Shopnotes awhile back. It is suspended from the ceiliing using 1" galv. pipe.
Hi Bob,
Well I'm certainly glad I started this discussion and wasn't quite expecting you to respond; which is a pleasant surprise. Based on what Zolton and Knotsscott have said I am definitely going to purchase a BORK from you.
I'm re-building my center island that will have both TS's facing each other. One I plan on using for dadoing primarily and it will have a downdraft table as the right extension, which will also act as the outfeed table for the other TS. The second TS will have a router table as its right extension table and will act as the outfeed for the other TS.
The only real concern I have is being able to build an overhead blade guard for my two tablesaws. It will be ceiling mounted and hopes are for it to be usable on both TS's. Also, I like anti-kickback pawls and would like to include them. Lot's of head scratching going on here.
Oh, and if I mention Knots do I get a discount or do I need to mention that other forum?
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/9/2008 5:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 12/9/2008 5:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"The only real concern I have is being able to build an overhead blade guard for my two tablesaws. It will be ceiling mounted and hopes are for it to be usable on both TS's"... Bob KA
Since the distance is short... how about a stud mounted between ceiling joist with a sliding track that the support arm attaches too?
Regards...
Sarge..
Morning Sarge,
At this point I've situated both saws centered under two cross beams that the air filter rests upon. Between these I envision a cage that will have an iron pipe on which an arm will be mounted, with a pivot point yet to be determined. The cage will slide along the pipe to allow use on both saws.
I would also like to fashion some kind of locking mechanism to keep the arm from sliding on the pipe when in use.
These are all thoughts with some rough sketches at this point as; you said I do enjoy tinkering and my marketing skills could be best described as non existent.
As an example I have borrowed several pics of your guard for reference. :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/10/2008 8:18 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Sounds as if you have the situation under control, Bob. As Nike says... "just do it". :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
The over-head as you use will work fine, Bob. My crown is nothing more than a block of scrap hard-wood.. a receiver line cut on the bottom to slide down over the splitter.. then holes drilled through both the crown and splitter to attach either sheet metal screws or T bolts with quick release knobs.
I want something blocking left which I do with my home-made spring board that drop leafs at the left end of table when not in use.. the fence right and the crown above to block in case of kick-back. The only time I don't run the crown is when I have to take the splitter off to do a non through cut but.. I use another type crown attached to the fence on the right.
I rarely do sheet goods but the two days ago I was going to run my current rear extension table over a Box Joint cutter blade. Two passes to get a dado for the miter track to ride in. Out of 6 major kick-backs in 38 years... 4 have been from sheet goods.
Now I have 5 with sheet goods as the picture below will attest to. Nasty stuff.. kick-back~ But..... spring-board left.. fence right.. and a home-made crown attached to the fence to stop upward launch. And launch it did... ! Couldn't go left.. couldn't go right.. so it went up and hit the crown and then rode the rear teeth up and over the top of the saw-blade and exited at the speed of a missile going down-range on the front of saw.
But... Nobody Home as I always keep the lane of fire clear. I also put a piece of stop board in the twin screw vise directly in front of the saw and in the direct line of fire. The sheet hit the target board at ultra high speed and rebounded down as that board has a 7 degree angle down on it's face just to send the launch to the floor. Sounded like a gun-shot as I have heard a few of those from far to close.
Took me 30 minutes to make a new rear extension table but I'm fine as I maintain strict discipline in the shop when it comes to safety. Below is my set-up as I use it. Ripping is my main object with my TS as I hire out to do large quantities so... tilting the blade or sheet goods are minimum for me.
Regards and keep up the good work...
Sarge..
Sarge,
Sorry to hear of your latest kickback incident. It looks as though the safety items you put in place did their job and kept you safe. Wood can be replaced, but some body parts can't.
I've been meaning to ask you something regarding your large Penn State dust hood/blade guard. I just got one of those (it came as part of Penn State's overhead tablesaw dustguard and blade cover "kit").
After putting everything together, the big, clear cover is sitting over my sawblade. And that's the problem - the dang thing is very big! I'm not out in the shop right now, but I seem to recall that it's maybe three inches wide or so. It covers the blade, for sure. But how the heck do you rip small pieces next to the fence with this thing in place? In fact, how do you get the fence itself closer to the blade guard than about an inch and a half away - much less have room to use a push stick in there between the fence and blade guard?
I can move the blade guard over, offset to the blade an inch or so. But it's still big and in the way. And when I offset it like this, the stock miter gauge that came with the saw bumps into it.
One thing I liked about the clear blade guard that came with my Grizzly saw was that it was narrow; probably an inch and a half wide. But this Penn State thing is huge, and I can see it getting in my way for a lot of things. I might have to fiddle around with things to use the old blade guard with the new Penn State boom and arm..
Any advice?
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton, I share your grief with the size of the Penn State cover. It's made that way, I think, to give the best dust collection off the blade. One solution is the make an auxillary fence that's L-shaped, providing a low fence
_| <-----that tall part attaches to your fence, the horizontal part is your fence (taller than the typed bar, obviously). Then a custom-made pusher can move stock through. It would ride on the horizontal board, but reach over and push the stock. No pics, sorry!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Thanks for the idea about the L-shaped fence. I have one of those that I use for other things, but didn't consider that it might be valuable in this instance. But it would be one way to approach it for sure.
The problem is that I'd have to compensate for the width of the fence - adding 4", say, to a measurement. And there are already way too many things to get confused about in the shop environment! And I'm seriously math-impaired to boot.
But I'm willing to bet that some retraining could get me going on this.
Thanks for writing with your suggestion..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Since I always measure blade-to-fence anyway, not trusting a scale to be completely accurate, it's a non-issue for moi (who is also math-challenged, at least when pre-occupied with other stuff).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As FG said... they make it large for dust collection as it is the one used on their over-head dust system and it does well in that department but.. what is the cure to rip thin stock?
You could do what FG does with the set-up she drew or you could adapt the thinner stock gaurd which I did and then decided the dust control wa not what I was hoping for but... I do it the easy way with the Penn State gaurd. My first question to you is how did you attach the shield to the splitter? That will determine how you have to do it.
I'll give you two ways I can do it.. one with dust control and one without. And I suggest you take about 30 minutes and build a few various shaped and thickness push sticks as I have. You can do it with scrap ply or solid wood and a BS. Think of as many situations that you will encounter and build a push stick for each to hang on a nail on the wall. Won't take long...
Is 1/8" narrow enough of a rip (?) as I have set up in the below pictures I just took to demonstrate how I do it? I really prefer not to go under 1/4" but am very confident doing 1/8" if necessary. Now... my short fence will move under the crown guard and actually touch the blade. I made the crown guard so the bottom would just clear the top of the short fence. I raise the shield and allow the bottom to rest on the fence top. Dust control at it's best.
If you prefer to do it without dust control meaning your shield is anchored too far forward for the fence to not interfere with and I'm guessing that is the case on your saw.. you simply take the shield off which takes about 10 seconds. A 1/4" diameter 5" long hex bolt runs through one side of the shield.. through my shield arm.. through the splitter..and though the opposite side of the shield.. attached with a small star knob that has 1/4" threaded female reciever. Drill to match your saw set-up.. A simple turn and a spin or two unscrews that side and you just extract the hex bolt. Bingo... the shield is no longer on the saw in the way. You are minus dust control but you can't always get what you want in an im-perfect world. ha... ha... ha..ha..ha..
If the bottom pictures aren't self evident of the above... let me know as I will explin further and get more detailed pictures.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 12/10/2008 12:41 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Thanks ever so much for taking the time to take and then post those photos! After looking at your setup, I confess to maybe overthinking this stuff a little. It did occur to me to simply rest the dust hood on top of the fence (and there is plenty of up and down play in the pivot system supplied with the boom arm on the Penn State unit to accommodate this). But so far I hadn't tried that; I just got everything in the other day and I've been working out in the shop to assemble everything and put it into use.
I was surprised by how much air movement there is under the dust hood when my cyclone fires up. Quite a bit more than when I had just a 1 1/4 inch hose hooked to the Grizzly blade guard. So, maybe resting the hood on the fence for narrow rips won't compromise dust collection as much as I'd feared. And raising it this way certainly will allow for a cleverly designed push stick to get in under the appartus. Your reminder of the importance of making some good ones are not falling on deaf ears. Well, actually they are. As I grow older I'm getting more hard of hearing. Maybe I should say the reminders are not going unheeded..
So, thank you again. A photo, in this instance, was worth quite a bit to my understanding of the situation. Pretty soon I hope to be up and running safely. Between the BORK riving knife and this dust collection/blade guard business, I'll feel a lot safer.
Funny, I worked as a carpenter for about 12 years and have done cabinetwork on the side for almost 30. It is only in recent years that I've begun to see the wisdom in guards, dust collection and noise reduction. Maybe it's that "older and wiser" deal they keep telling me about. Up until a few years ago my tablesaws never had guards or any other safety device. There was another thread on Knots this week about someone wanting to cut a long angle on either a piece of sheet goods or a long board. He was contemplating doing it freehand on the tablesaw. That was something I did frequently in my days as a carpenter, and I never had a kickback or any ill effects. I wouldn't do it now though..
Yours, ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
By raising it Zolton.. you are going to create a situation where there is less vacuum consequently it won't be the pick-up you have when all the way down. But... even though reduced on those thin rips it does help tremendously and saves the additional step of removing the shield al-together.
Not a lot of perfect things in life so you can say that on occasion you do have to compromise somewhat. But.. it you are married then compromise is something you have likely mastered and mastered well to stay that way. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
I "borrowed" -- stole? -- Sarge's set-up and it works very well indeed. I have a SC with riving knife, and I tried to adapt the original slim shield for dc, and it just wasn't satisfactory, so now I have the PS shield permanently attached to the tall riving knife with crown guard. I do approach the cutting of narrow stock differently. Unlike Sarge I've never had a kickback from cutting plywood, but I have, twice, from using a push stick near a plastic guard. Never again. So for safety I now remove the tall knife with PS shield and use the short riving knife with a pair of GRRRippers. Some people don't like passing them over the blade, but I've never had a hint of trouble with them, and you do get very smooth edges on the stock. The one drawback is that you lose dust collection, though you can pick up some dust with a magnetic chute.
Jim
Glad you are benefiting from the set-up, Jim. I have one of those do hickeys you refer to but am reluctant to use it for just the reason you mentioned. I have well over 400 sky-dive jumps.. have been in gun battles.. used to race dirt bikes but yet... I confess that moving my hand directly over that blade with 4/4 stock gives me a "spooky" feel .
But... I know many use them and I have heard no ill results from it yet so.... what can I say. I suppose I just scare easier in old age. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
You sound like a cat that has used 8 lives...... if you only got one left don't waste it.
OK call me crazy, but I have purposefully made my saw do kick backs just so I know what happens. I have a plywood piece behind me now so it does not go through the sheetrock and into my kitchen. Not hard to produce kick back either, just set your fence so it drives the back end of the cut into the blade and BAM, kick it up a notch. Stand to the side by all means.
I have done your plywood thing before, but that was with cheapo home repo potato chipped ply. I never run warped plywood through my saw, bowed is OK so the ends curve up and contact on the table at the blade, but not warped. No way to know what it will do.
Thanks for the photos, interesting setup. What material is your sacrificial fence made of? Looks like phenolic and two clamps, and in another post you have uvhm and three clamps. Any reason for the change or purpose. I use scraps of phenolic ply...
AZMO
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Edited 12/10/2008 6:20 pm by AZMO
"OK call me crazy, but I have purposefully made my saw do kick backs just so I know what happens".... AZMO
With no effort exerted... "you're crazy". ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
The fence is now pure phenolic with a thin melamine face. After a discussion here or somewhere concerning the flex with UHMW I decide to use two blanks of phenolic I had. Both were purchased from Highland WW (Hardware) to use in scary sharp but I went another route with the base for that system that will handle all grits on one plate.
They were 5" x 16" I believe so I ripped one to original fence height and drilled two holes for the Rockler Universal clamps I use. The other piece went on my BS original fence left 5" tall. I have some other face fences of various heights for it along with several home-made point fences. I really did not have a problem with the UHMW but after the discussion it got moved to another jig for another purpose.
I did some modification on my TS modification also with a longer crown guard.. etc. After the Mission coffee table and shoe rack.. I am waiting until January 1 to start the computer desk so I have time on my hands which generally results in tinkering with jigs.. etc. etc. The spring-board left is now a drop leaf to get the left side out of the traffic pattern left when the board is not in action. Just having some fun improving with dead time on my hands.
So..... there you are.... and here I am. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Yep, I know what you mean. I used to climb hydro towers with no safety gear, but these days I'm a devout coward around a tablesaw. I didn't warm to the GRRRippers until I saw them demoed. I watched the guy for 15 minutes and couldn't see a downside. My only beef is that they don't make it crystal clear at the outset that you need 2 of them except for the shortest cuts. If you try to cut a long board with just one you wind up halfway through the cut feeling like you're hanging from a windowsill by your fingernails. The only safe option is to hit the stop paddle.
Cheers, Jim
Question on your comment of needing two, Jim. I have one but it basically just sits there on a shelf, but I have heard that comment before. And I understand why it has been stated but.....
Could you not use one the Grrr-pper (?) on the operator push side and use a grout smoother with a piece of sand-paper adhered as I do for my jointer pads for the side that has already gone through? Big difference in cost of $60 and $12 for a good grout smoother with a 1/2" rubber padded base.
Just curious as to your thoughts on that....
Regards...
Sarge..
When you use 2 Grrrippers you use them hand over hand. One moves forward on the stock over the blade in your left hand with the second following behind in your right hand. When the second one reaches the blade you lift the first one off the stock and place it behind, and so on. Feels a bit awkward the first time you try it.You set the Grippers up so that there's a gap over the blade, no contact, so a makeshift substitute wouldn't really work -- you'd have to stop short of the blade. The whole idea is to keep the Grrrippers, and the stock, tight against the fence, so you use the long fence. One thing I like about them is that they're adjustable, so you have to set them up differently for each job -- you're forced to think about what's the safest way to proceed.
That's a poor explanation of the process. Here's a site that shows it being done, and the operator's better looking than me too.
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/nprod-14.htm
Cheers, Jim
I basically forgot these are through cuts in lieu of non through which that method might work on...... my bad on that call.
I watched the illustrations. I watched Beth stand directly behind the stock being ripped in the first phase of the rip.. then I watched Beth standing to the side when she finished the tail of the rip but... Beth seemed to be straining and leaning heavily forward toward the blade.
If Beth had been standing where she did the other day when I had a 16" wide sheet of MDF kick-back violently and launch forward up and over the top of the blade, Beth would have seen a trip to the emergency room with possible internal bleeding of the mid section with the speed it was traveling before it hit my backer board mounted in a twin screw vise in front of my saw.
I did have a 2 x 4 launch once that put a hole through the sheet rock 20' in front of the saw. Hence the backer board with a cant downward to direct it to the floor. It just made sense to do it to me after that wake up call.
I think I will stick to my method which blocks left.. blocks right.. blocks on top and I can.. in a well balanced position left of blade.... Keep the firing lane clear and hands no closer to the blade than 8". I suppose I am a bit old fashioned and somewhat of a party pooper to question new and improved products. But.. I am what I am... :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I stand well to the left for most cuts. However that's where I was when I had my only tablesaw injury, to the fingers of my left hand, when I was using a push stick on a narrow workpiece with the plastic guard in place. The darn thing exploded out to the left so fast I still haven't figured out how. With the GRR thing your weight is what keeps the piece in line, and as long as you maintain a steady pressure the piece isn't going anywhere it shouldn't. It's harder to maintain that pressure if you're too far to the side, and because you're steering the gizmo over the blade you pretty much have to lean forward over the saw somewhat. That flies in the face of what you school yourself to do for larger pieces, but given what happened to my knuckles I feel safe with it after trying it out. But I wouldn't want to do it if it made me feel uneasy, and there's all kinds of ways to skin a cat, some of them a lot less expensive.
Cheers, Jim
P.S. Don't be too hard on ole Beth's technique. They say it was her first time.
I might use one for short pieces as demonstrated in the link but.... since my average rips are 4' - 12', it really rules out me using them. Just a case for me of if it isn't broken.. don't fix it as I am quite confident with my approach and it has proven worthy.
I apologize to Beth but.. if she drops by my shop to rip there is the chance she might get re-trained or she won't be ripping there until she is. I'm just a very mean ole man I am told. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Borkbob: I hadn't realized that since the Supreme Court job never panned out, you had gone into a more useful line of work:-) Good luck with the product!
law,
You may have just opened the door for a plethora of lawyer jokes (I hope so, I love 'em).
BORK is an acronym for Bolt-On Ripping Knife. A member of another forum reminded me of the Muppets' Swiss chef:
Please Pray For Our Troops
Semper Fi!
Bob Ross
WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
Semper Fi (?) .... a lawyer and an ex-Jar-head. What's the world coming too? No wonder that damn thing is aluminum as I'm surprised you didn't just heat a K-Bar and bend it to shape the curvature around the TS blade... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge...
who grew up just outside Quang Tri Fire-base... I Corp and attached tactically to 3rd Marine Division Operations even though with P Co. 75th Ranger Regiment of the you know which other branch..
Sarge,
I was a Navy corpsman and served with L 3/3 and L 3/4 in '69. I was out of Quang Tri with 3/3, then Dong Ha with 3/4. We must have missed out; I don't remember any Army guys hanging around to hold our coats while we mixed it up with the NVA..lol.
Oh, the air conditioned Army club in Quang Tri did serve an almost transparent rum and coke with ICE for 25 cents. Sure beat those warm Falstaffs at the Marine slop chute.
Welcome Home Brother!!Please Pray For Our Troops
Semper Fi!
Bob Ross
WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
The 1st Brigade.. 5th Infantry Div. (no de-activated) was sent over in 68' to eventually take over I Corp from 3rd Marines and was under operational command of 3rd Marines. I was in P Co. 75th Rangers attached to 5th Inf. Div. and was fire-based at LZ Sharon the few days we came outta the field just outside the city... down the road from the Citadel.
Dong Ha.. C 2.. C 3 (Con Thien).. C 4.. Rockpile.. are all names you will remember in Leather-neck Square and of course Khe-Sahn west of the Square. I ran a 6 man Hunter Killer Team and worked with several Marine Recon Units on occasion.
Sorry to say I did not have time for the Air Conditioned Army Club in Quang Tri or even knew there was one. I presume it was there for rear support troops and palace guards. I cannot say for sure. They lived in their world and we lived in ours..
But even though it might surprise you about a few of us Army guys... I have seen a few NVA popping out of Dixie Cups as the bottom photo will attest to. ha.. ha... ha.. ha.. ha..
Highest Regards Doc....
Sarge..
Sarge.. Thanks for you service.
You're quite welcome.. just doing my duty time as hopefully anyone would when they get the call.
Regards...
Sarge..
I've had the BORK on my Shop Fox since August. Zolton's description is very good. It's a clever device that works well. There are a couple of minor quirks, and it's a little fussy to get it dialed in, but once setup with a good ZCI it works very well. It's alot less expensive and easier than selling your existing saw and buying a new one with a RK.
Best of all, Bob will refund your money if you're not happy with it...very little downside in that equation.
Bob, I find it interesting that he doesn't post any pictures of the interior -- how the blade is fixed. Or did I miss that?
It wasn't posted here but.. if Knotscott see's your post... he has some I do believe he posted on another net-work. Very clever set-up by Bob working with what was there for him to work with.
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi, Sarge. I have another (emailed)offer of pics of the internals. My leanings, t'were it me who was marketing, would be to have those pics on the web site, on a "details" page, for instance. Glad there's someone here who has tried the product and can provide feedback and further information about how it works!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Maybe that will be a cue for Bob to do just that. I have a feeling he is somewhat like me in the respect we love tinkering and marketing is not necessarily our forte. :>)
I believe Knotscott has one and several on other forums are using them. Other than some minor annoyances due to having to adapt to the manufacturers set-up of internals for a splitter rather the the riving knife... it seems to be quite well received by those that have them and are using them.
I can assure you that something is much better than nothing even though I am quite happy with my set-up which is geared to what my needs are. For those that don't use any type of safety features.. this might just be the ticket to get them to do so.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 12/9/2008 9:58 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 12/9/2008 9:59 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hey Sarge, FG, and all...sorry if I'm late to the party. This pic isn't mine but it shows how the BORK attaches to the arm....apologies to the original poster if it's not Bob's. When the blade is fully lowered, the BORK needs to flex around the some of the internal mechanisms of the saw....it all seems a bit unrefined compared to a saw with a traditional riving knife that rides straight up and down, but because the BORK is an aftermarket attachment, it has to accommodate the internal structure of the existing saw. That's one of the reasons the softer material is actually beneficial. I assume my initial reaction was similar to some of yours, but after seeing how it all plays out, I'm confident that Bob's done what he needed to do to make it work....and it does. It's really pretty innovative. I'm sure some refinements will come along in time, but it works well and doesn't require much attention now that I've got it installed properly.
Edited 12/9/2008 11:11 pm ET by Knotscott
After giving it some thought and the fact I have used aluminum successfully on several jigs.... should be no problem and the damage caused to a blade would decrease. Bob did what he had to do to get that riving knife on the saw considering it has guts set up for a different animal. What he did was brillant as I have looked at the idea and decided it was just too much trouble to atttempt.
He took the time to do it and that speaks volumes for persistence on his part. And well done considering the circumstances as I see it.
Regards...
Sarge..
forestgirl,
I looked at everything on Bob's WEBsite and agree that I wish there were more but in his defense the BORK, at least to me, is a very new offering. Certainly no worse than some mainstream manufacturers offerings.......
I've emailed Bob regarding purchase and that will happen very soon. I've also offered to provide him with a well documented trail of my experiences with installation and peformance of the BORK.
I'm sure you've read some of my past discussions (read blastings/flames) with regard to what is available from manufacturers with regard to splitters/riving knives. This to me is the first one that makes sense.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/10/2008 8:17 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hi Bob,
Just to let you know, the MO is in the mail and, the Unisaw is all cleaned up and raring to go.
Would you happen to have a pic of one installed on a Unisaw? Jes gettin jeeped up for it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I do not have a pic of installation on a Unisaw. The Grizzly 1023 is said to be a clone of the Uni, at least regarding the arbor bracket. This is the part to which the BORK attaches. It has been reported to me that the Uni arbor bracket is slightly less robust than the Griz and I have had to downsize the clamp that holds the BORK to the Uni arbor bracket. Other than a slight difference in size (bigger is better?), the appearance of the BORK in the photos is the same. Please Pray For Our Troops
Semper Fi!
Bob Ross
WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
I got the BORK and hope to get it installed soon but it's 6°F in the woodshop this morning so it may be a while. Read the instructions several times am wondering if it might be a good idea to remove the table first.
Hope not.............
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
6°F will try your patience...I'd hold out for above freezing. I think removing the top would be more trouble in the long run, though it'd definitely give better access! It really depends on the size of your hands and your dexterity....I found that filing down the insert support tabs saved some skin on the back of the hand! Good luck!
Bob,
Man! 6 degrees inside? That's pretty brutal. If you're a guy who sticks his tongue out the side of your mouth when you're doing something effortful, stay away from your tablesaw top! You could be out there until spring, stuck to the cast iron. What a way to go though, eh?
It wasn't necessary to remove my saw tabletop to get the BORK on. It can try your patience though. And that's why it might be better to heat things up in there before you start working on it. Of course if this is going on the Unisaw and you haven't had the chance to dial the saw in yet, you may consider removing the top for convenience. Then you can do the necessary aligning with the BORK already in place
I found that you can get better access if you crank the saw arbor down a little from as high as it will go. That gives you a better shot at putting the arm and attachment U-bolt in place (though yours might not attach with a U-bolt).
At any rate, mine has been on the saw now for several weeks, and I just finished up a four hour session cutting drawer parts. It works. And it's unobtrusive. I've only had a few kickbacks in my entire woodworking life of almost 30 years, so I know pretty well how to avoid them. The BORK is just another little measure of safety. I've also been thinking that as one gets older, maybe you need more safety equipment in place. So, the BORK satisfies that notion..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,
Went up to the shop early afternoon and it was a balmy 16°F, YAY! Not having the Uni dialed in yet I decided to take the top off. I removed both extension wings and the top and by that time it was clear that the balance of the day would be spent where it was WARM.
Fear not about the tongue sticking to the top, tongue IN cheek is reserved for Knots, heh, heh. The age thing was a definite consideration here as well.
Should be warming up over the next few days so with any luck I'll be BORKing soon.
Thanks for your guidance;I will post results,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I'll look forward to seeing your BORK setup once you get it in place.
Also wanted to say I appreciated your Christmas poem and ornaments. I wondered if you had any ornaments (or intentions to carve some) of cross country skiers. I did twelve miles today (that would be about 19 KM for those in metric-using countries), and I'm feeling it. It's still early in the season and I'm trying to ramp up the mileage before the races begin in a month or so.
Good cheer to you and yours...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,
It's almost 30°F this morning and I have nearly the whole day planned in the woodshop! Gotta play Santa late this afternoon. Every year I leave Christmas Eve afternoon for some last minute shopping, usually stocking stuffers.
Back when we were living in Hudson, NH I went to Nashua and spent the whole afternoon on main street going to all the stores. Malls just aren't my cup of tea.
That year Santa (me) came home with a little extra twinkle in his eyes - some of the stores had some Oh Be Joyful for their last minute shoppers!
Well here's the closest I can get for ye.
View Image
That's Santa with his Honey Do List on the right.
Joyous best wishes to ye from,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Close enough to skis for me. I'm glad to hear the weather warmed up a bit for you. Nothing like caressing cast iron when it's close to absolute zero...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Got the BORK installed today. Wasn't all that bad - took a bit less than 2 hours. Took many notes and pics and will post same after I get a chance to put it all together.
I just came downstairs from the woodshop and at this point I have a new ZCI blank made and will finish that tomorrow and run some tests.
Mom Nature has been kind and it was 40°F today. The ice sluice, formerly known as the driveway is another matter. Cousin Randy stopped by to offer his suggestions/wit just to make my day. He's a truck driver need I say more.......
:-)
When he went to leave his picky was at the bottom of the ice sluice/driveway. I told him it's those dang Fords, caint stand on their own 4 tires. Now he's in a snit. Yuk, yuk.
Film @ 11,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
BOB! Shame on you!
I have a FORD (old chevy man here) I DID have a factory special Corvette 1964 and 1/2? as I reacall.. 465 HP with solid lifters, 3/4 race cam and a close ratio? trans.. 4/11 posi.. traction that was just horrible to dive in a Chicago winter.
Did stupid things all my life.. My wife cried when I told her I sold it to make a downpayement on a house I could not afford either!
When she cried I thought I did something wrong?
Edited 12/28/2008 8:07 am by WillGeorge
Here's my install of the BORK.
First off I would suggest that you clean out the tablesaw, especially inside the cabinet if you’re a clutz like me. Trying to find the bolt that holds the splitter/guard bracket in a pile of sawdust doesn’t bolster your patience, which you will need. Also, if you use the U-bolt you might want to add a deep 7/16” socket and ratchet to the list of tools that you’ll need.
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Here is an area that I think the bracket could be modified a bit. If you look closely at the end of the bracket you’ll notice a pad thang. Further back on the bracket over the abor the bracket is machined with a saddle that allows it to straddle the hump. I would think that more of the pad thang material here would be a good thing. I’m concerned about the bracket slipping over the edge from vibration. May just be an old phart paranoia thing.
With the blade installed notice the proximity of the left leg of the U-bolt to it. A reminder to check the BORK often. The instructions say to check it before each use. Two locking nuts are provided with the BORK and I’m inclined to add one more to each leg for good measure and piece of mind. Also, I had to mount/remount the bracket several times and as such the nylon liner in the locking nuts became worn in a bit
View Image
Notice that the short leg of the U-bolt hits a rib under the sawtop. This I was able to adjust so the nut/bolt does clear the rib but puts the U-bolt precariously close to the end of the bracket. There is a little nub at the end of the bracket that supposedly prevents the bracket from slipping off during use but I would like it to be more substantial. I also wonder if it might be better if the bracket were a wee bit longer?
View Image
Another thing is that the long leg of the U-bolt causes the ZCI to lift when the blade is fully extended, thus you will lose some blade height. I think I will trim that leg down and add the extra locking nut. To do this I will add a non-locking nut first and use it to shear off the rough edges left from the hacksaw then install the additional locking nut. Thank you DIY Network.
Here the BORK is installed but I haven’t aligned it to the blade yet. There are several bolts that provide a lot of adjustability for this exercise.
View Image
More to follow,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
This is the first comprehensive feedback I've rec'd on the Unisaw except for Creek's problems with the casting flaws. It is obvious now that the Grizzly and Uni arbor bracket dimensions are different. A couple answers will help me dial it in.
Does the BORK bracket seat fully over the arbor shaft?
Is the top of the Uni arbor bracket over the shaft reasonably flat?
How much would you extend the plastic pad toward the arbor and how much would you extend the BORK bracket toward the front of the saw?
How much are you cutting off the long arm of the U-bolt?
The BORK bracket is notched where it meets the flare of the arbor bracket in front of the arbor (where the clamp goes). Is this notch accurately placed?
I very much appreciate your willingness to provide information to me and other woodworkers.
Please Pray For Our Troops
Semper Fi!
Bob Ross
WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
Here is the rest of the previous post:
Here the BORK is installed but I haven’t aligned it to the blade yet. There are several bolts that provide a lot of adjustability for this exercise.
View Image
Here you can see that the far end of the bracket lifts the ZCI and the blade here is not fully extended. Not sure at this point where/if I can make adjustments to alleviate this.
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A note to makers of ZCIs for cabinet saws:
<!----><!----><!---->
I used the Freud box cutter blade(s) to clear away material from the underside of the ZCI for 10” blades and removed about 3/8” of material. Then used a 1” chisel to extend the trough forward about 1½” towards the front of the ZCI. I used part of it to register against the sides cut by the box cutter to keep the trough straight. Then used a 3/8” to remove the material in between.
<!----><!---->
Now you would think that tablesaw manufacturers would have a height gauge so one would know how much they have raised the blade wouncha? Either that or make the saws so a 10” blade will clear a user made ZCI! Mebbe mount the top ½” higher. Man they’re cheaper than I am! J
Sorry for the fuzzy pic but here you can see the ZCI lifted in the front. It’s that one long legged U-bolt that I need to trim back methinks.
View Image
All things considered this was a relatively easy install and the adjustments provided with the BORK should make fine tuning easy as well. To me the riving knife represents good value added.
<!----><!---->
Also it just may be that had I used the included hose clamp instead of the U-bolt some of my issues would go away. I just felt more comfortable using the U-bolt. As they say, your mileage may vary.
<!----><!---->
As for the instructions, they were essentially spot on although a few pics would be nice, especially for someone spatially challenged like me.
There is one other part of the BORK that comes with it that isn't advertised. You get the benefit of working with Bob Ross. He is sincere in making a product that works and is a woodworker just like the rest of us. No, I'm not on commission from him.
If the BORK prevents one kickback it will have more than paid for itself.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The height concern when making a ZCI is common with many TS's, Bob. Simply slap a 7 1/4" circular saw blade on... raise it.. remove it.. then put your 10" on. I put a piece of 2 x 4 stud from front to rear over the insert at that point and clamp it to the saw front and rear. Then raise the 10" blade and bingo... Houston... we have blast-off. :>)
P.S. If that BORK had just a small bit more aluminum behind the arc... I am not convinced you couldn't add a crown guard made of poplar or basswood to the top as neither have any significant weight that would possibly lead to mis-alignment IMO. But.. just my opinion.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 12/30/2008 11:49 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
You could be out there until spring, stuck to the cast iron.
Like in that movie.. The Christmass Story? I watch ever year! I loved the Cleaver thing! Poor bird!
If it makes you feel better Atlanta got a cold wave that moved in a few days ago... before I turned the natural gas space heater on early this morning it was 55 degrees in my shop. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... how's a man gonna function in the shop at 55 degree's? Brrrrrrrrr.....
:>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge - The biggest problem I face when it's 55°F this time of year is deciding which t-shirt to wear in the shop! ;-)
Edited 12/23/2008 4:22 pm ET by Knotscott
Just got in from blowing leaves, KS. 44* out there but I had on a sweat-shirt so fortunatley no frost-bite as I kept moving. Brrrrrrrrrr............... ha.. ha...
Merry Xmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I got your 55 degrees. That temp is my goal with all the heat going full bore. I use electric and I swear I could hear the meter spinning the last few days.
Bob: Zolton hit the nail; if you lower your arbor bracket it makes a bit more room. I've learned how to do it after 190 changes. It just occured to me that putting some duct tape over the insert ears might help...they can be sharp. Be sure to put the clamp (either one) on first, just get it started and then install the BORK bracket. This way you don't have to hold too many loose parts at one time.
Another tip I keep forgetting to incorporate into the instructions: if you use the U clamp, after snugging it down on the BORK bracket, tap it sideways away from the saw blade as you continue to tighten. This will assure clearance.
You'll be BORKing before you know it.
Merry Christmas all.Please Pray For Our Troops
Semper Fi!
Bob Ross
WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
BORKING... only a Marine could come up with that..... even though it does sound like fun.
Regards to you and yours for the Holidays Bob...
Sarge..
Sarge,
You're killing me with that 55 degrees business! It was 8 degrees this morning when I woke up (outside, not in the shop, thank goodness). 55 is what my heater will get the shop up to after an hour or so of firing away. Those first chilly minutes are when I do cleaning and organizing. It's just too cold for any kind of precision work.
This all just reminded me of that saying about weight fluctuation..."I'm just getting down to what I never wanted to get up to this winter."
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
36* degrees now... going down to 39* over-night. May be as low as 49* in the shop in the morning. Brrrrrrrr.... My natural gas space heater will struggle for at least 10 minutes to bring it up to 70* where I prefer it.
I keep a close check from upstairs with my cup of coffee in hand. Let it go too long and you have a sauna down there. Perspiration slowly forming on your brow.. Errrrrrrrrrrrr .... nasty conditions indeed. But a man has to learn to overcome the harsh environment. ha.. ha...
Regards to you and yours for the Holidays....
Sarge..
I'm also concerned that it is made of aluminum instead of steel.
I'm not into metallurgy but I would assume both would work to protect you depending on what type of aluminum it is made from.
As I would see the outcome... The blade takes the stick and throws the object at you. The splitter just keeps the gap at the back closed so it is much less likely to happen. But not impossible to happen...
Worked with many aluminum types that were hard as nails! And put steel to shame in SOME situations.
http://www.kastenmarine.com/alumVSsteel.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=qsg1AAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA465&lpg=RA2-PA465&dq=aluminum+resistance+to+deflection&source=web&ots=imksq0KTGC&sig=Z7vGNGnzZdY112nxOH_xzNLPbtc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result
Maybe just a good read but something to think about.
Hi Will,
My concern about aluminum has since subsided.
The fact that it is made out of aluminum is more of an advantage when you consider that this product is meant for the end user; who just might want assurance that any misadjustments won't cause damage to blades.
Not being an engineer just looking at the functional aspects of the BORK aluminum should be more than adequate to perform its intended function, i.e. keeping the wood away from the back teeth of the blade.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I have one and it looks pretty nice, but did not work on my Unisaw because my arbor casting is too rough. I tried to send money to the owner, Bob, but he wouldn't take it because it didn't work. He said to give it to another Unisaw or Griz owner and maybe they would send him a few bucks if it works. I'll be glad to discuss with you if you like.
kp
Did you consider taking a bastard and mill file to the rough casting you describe? Just curious...
Regards...
Sarge..
Bob Ross and I discussed several different solutions,and filing high spots was one of them. It was finally a shim that "straightened" it out, but by then the hose clamp didn't seem safe enough for me. So...I have it all leftover for anyone with a Unisaw or Griz to try on their saw. You can decide for yourself how much to send Bob. He's a great guy to deal with and I think he has a very good idea. I'm surprised some company hasn't jumped on his idea and refined it.
lostcreek
Lostcreek - My BORK came with a U-bolt instead of a hose clamp....any chance the U-bolt would work better for you?
Thanks, but I tried it and the ty-wrap. Trouble was trying to clamp two uneven surfaces. Just couldn't get it to feel safe enough for me.
Creek was sent a BORK on trial to test some 1/4" cable ties as a method of attachment. When those wouldn't work, we tried the U clamp and hose clamp. I don't know what the differences are but some Uni owners have had more trouble than others installing the BORK bracket.
Scott: I think the BORK could be attached to a Griz or Shop Fox with bubble gum..lol.
Creek: I'm sending Bob a new unit because he has requested a .080" splitter blade.Please Pray For Our Troops
Semper Fi!
Bob Ross
WalnutAcreWoodworking.com
kp & Bob,
You folks may not be privy to some of my rants here on Knots with regard to the quality of manufacturers offerings of stock safety devices on its tablesaws. Suffice to say that in most cases they are abominal and might as well be non-existant.
I also contend that these offerings have contributed to users discarding them because they make the tool more dangerous than without them.
To me, I see a riving knife/splitter as one of two necessary safety device for all tablesaws. Another is a quality blade guard. My intent is to come up with something that incorporates both the BORK and Sarges blade guard to that end.
I'm willing to go the extra mile to accomplish that as I feel all woodworkers will benefit if I can make that happen. In addition I feel that Bob has a good product, but more importantly I get the impression that he isn't capitalising on the shortcomings of manufacturers.
You know it's kind of paradoxical to me that we typically find, what most consider necessary safety devices listed under Tablesaw Accessories...........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
While I realize that the link you posted is 5 years old... I must say.. it doesn't work.
Takes you to one of those "autogenerated" sites that goes round in circles and never to where or what you want.
Does not seem to be any valid links to anything "BORK" related that I can find... so far.
Anyone have any current links to this BORK thing?
TIA
Zargon
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