I’ve been commissioned to make a dining room table out of Bolivian Rosewood. My customers are adamant about the color remaining “dark”, however my research indicates that the wood lightens over time, especially when exposed to sunlight. Their dining room gets some sun, but I think the rate of exposure will not be high. They chose the wood specifically for it’s grain & darkness, and want to preserve that. They also don’t want to have the wood stained in any way, although I think I can convince them if this is a method to preserve the dark coloration.
My question is this: Is there some manner of finishing Bolivian Rosewood that will preserve it’s dark color over time? They want their great grandchildren to be using this table.
Thanks!
David
Replies
however my research indicates that the wood lightens over time, especially when exposed to sunlight..
I would show THEM the information before you start.. Well, as least warn them it can happen..
David,
Also show them an example of the wood freshly worked and then finished with whatever finish you were planning on using (lacquer, i assume). If they have been looking at rough lumber they are in for a surprise.
The rosewoods vary greatly in their apearance from rough lumber to freshly worked to finished and allowed to "age." These woods can either darken, or lighten. And different parts of the same log can go either way. Many of them look very bland when freshly worked (even though dark and promising in the rough), others are just the opposite and lighten later.
Complicating the problem is ascertaining the actual specie of the supply they have seen or selected. Is it really "Bolivian?" (whatever that actually is?) The supply of South American rosewoods has always been problematic regarding the question of actual type, and it takes an expert to identify) Is it really all from the same log? Very unlikely!
One of the wonders of rosewood, is the unpredictable response to time after a piece has been finished and the appearance of figure and color that was not apparent in the new piece. It is well-known, for instance, that cocobolo does not achieve much character until months after it has been worked. On the other hand, I have had cocobolo bowls which had excellent contrasts of browns, reds and yellows at the time they were finished, become very dark, almost uniformly black in a year or so.
Rich
Don't ever learn anything new. Rather than give you satisfaction that you know more than you did, it will only confirm you know less than you thought by opening horizons to things of which you had never dreamt and which you now must explore.
Rich & Will,
Thanks for the suggestions & information, I've let my clients know about the potential problem and am awaiting a response.
My next question is, assuming they want to go ahead with the project, what's the best finish to use on Rosewood? I had planned to use tung oil, but my research shows that water based finishes are better than oil, and an oil based finish might not even dry on it. Do you have any suggestions or wisdom to share regarding finishing it? What about shellac?
Thanks again,
David
David,Since you are asking these questions, I'm going to assume that you don't have a lot of experience with rosewoods. If that's wrong, please correct me.Dalbergia are among the most beautiful woods to finish both due to the figure of most samples (most especially Brazillian rosewood and cocobolo) and the fact that they polish like marble. I hope your samples of Bolivian have good figure.To do these woods justice, requires the very finest of finishing techniques. While it polishes to a beautiful surface, applying the finish material can be frustrating and has driven many workers to other pursuits.While your particular sample may accept an oil-based finish, that liklihood is low. I have gotten uniformly muddy, diappointing results with any attempts to use tung, boiled linseed, or any of the commercial oil/varnish preparations. I had used penetrating oils on so many projects for so many years before my first attempt at rosewood, that I thought it was a universal, fool proof technique. Several different Dalbergia species disabused me of that notion very quickly.Besides, there is no way that tung oil is going to result in the heirloom-quality that you described of your customer's expectations.A big problem is the natural resinous nature of the wood (which can vary). The oil just doesn't penetrate or polymerize. It's a mess.Here is an exerpt from an article by Dick Boak, who is probably as knowldgeable about working and finishing rosewood as anyone alive. He's the director of the finishing division of Martin Guitars. His name is synomymous with working of exotic hardwoods and finishing techniques. (Take a look at a Martin guitar made of Brazillian or Indian rosewood or koa).This is from:http://www.forumsamerica.com/site/features/feature.aspx+Forum+Crafts+ArticleCode+355+V+NIt's about halfway down the page (do a page search for "lacquer"). There is additional information there about gluing:***********"The resins in true Rosewoods can prohibit polyurethane and other oil based finishes from curing. It is best to avoid oil-based finishes on Rosewood. Greater success will be achieved with lacquer. A compatible vinyl sealer is most effective as a first coat in order to hold the resins down. Vinyl is also useful in "sandwiching" mineral spirit based fillers before application of successive lacquer (sanding) sealer and lacquer coats. Rosewoods have a fairly open pore structure. These pores will soak up finish like a sponge unless a filler has been applied. Dark fillers work best on Rosewood, since natural fillers tend to dry white, resembling undesirable calcium or mineral deposits. Solvents in the initial finish coat can often dissolve the resins in Rosewood causing the pigment to bleed or migrate onto adjacent laminates or trim. The best way to avoid this problem is to mist extremely light coats of sealer until an adequate base has been provided, then successive heavier coats can be sprayed. In some cases it is necessary to mask highly contrasting white woods or seal them with brushed applications of shellac, vinyl sealer, or lacquer sealer."************I use Sherwyn Williams Acrylic CAB (Cellulose Acetate Butyrate) lacquer and its mate, vinyl sanding sealer (24% solids). This sealer sands like a dream.After final wood sanding to 400-600 grit (bellieve me, with rosewood, it's worth it to finish to that level), I spray 2 light applications of sealer at least 2 hours apart. That gets sanded with 600 the next day.Then I use silex solvent-based filler stained dark purple/brown, applied as usual. Paint it on, let it get hazy and then scrape/wipe off all excess first with a plastic spatula, then coarse rags until completely dry and the only residual is in the pores.You should experiment on samples up through this step, using sealer on each, then one with filler, one without. Do NOT attempt to do the job without experimenting. You may find that you like just the sealed wood, or sealed plus filler.Then apply 2 more coats of sealer, level that (600 grit) the next day.My schedule for lacquer is: day 1, 3 light, but evenly wet coats an hour apart. No sanding between. Day 2, level with 600 grit then apply 3 more coats at 1 hour intervals. Don't try to level completely smooth, you'll go through the finish. Just get the dust nibs and the peaks of any uneven finish. There will be shallow "valleys" of finish that don't get the sheen knocked off.Day 3, level again. This leveling should almost completely result in an even look to the whole finished area. Shoot 3 more light coats. The next day, level with 600. There should be no uneveness at all. If there is, another 3 shots are needed. Level that the next day.Then wait AT LEAST 2 weeks.Rub with 600 grit, then 1000 grit each lubricated with a mixture of a few drops of dishwashing soap in a quart of water. Gently rub, using a felt-backed block. Don't let the surface rub dry. There should be absolutely no pits after the 600 grit. Then follow with automotive rubbing compound (red). Then auto polishing compound (white).This all sounds much more complicated than it really is. It is not. The secret is the vinyl sealer both under and over the filler. Take away that and we could be describing a finishing schedule for oak or mahogany.Rich
Edited 5/2/2005 1:10 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
You're absolutely correct, I have very little experience with rosewood, and I truly appreciate your time & effort outlining your procedure & giving me pointers to other very useful articles (I'm amassing quite the number of links in my "favorites" on this topic).I read all the way through Dick Boak's article, and it sounds like the bleed through problems of "true" rosewoods won't be quite so bad, since I'm reasonably sure that the wood actually is "Bolivian Rosewood" or Morado and he specifically mentions that "As a result it can be finished without the filling and resin problems that are characteristic of true Rosewoods". However, having learned my lesson long ago, I'll take your advice & experiment before I jump both feet into the finishing process. Fortunately my clients are about to leave on a 2 month trip to Europe, so I don't have a lot of time pressures on me.Are you using HVLP in the finishing process you've outlined? It sounds like that's what you're doing. If that's the case, can I presume that most of the techniques will transfer over to a brushed on method (I don't have any spray equipment)?Once again, thanks for your help,David
David,I have standard spray equipment. I have never brushed lacquer, although there are preparations made for that. Once you use a spray gun for even a short time there's no going back to brushing! The Sherwyn Williams products I mentioned aren't made for brushing. They are really professional grade, completely non-yellowing and the lacquer is very durable.Since Morado doesn't have the resin properties of rosewood, you ought to give tung oil a try. If the wood will accept it, you certainly can get a beautiful, low-luster finish. I recommend an oil/varnish mixture as you'll get some (very slight) additional protection from the varnish component. You will need many applications (I'd go for no fewer than 6, up to 10) over several weeks to achieve anything near the durability that a table will need. It won't be in the same league with a proper lacquer finish in terms of durability, but its virtue will be that it can easily be "renewed" whenever needed.There are numerous threads here regarding methods of applying fine oil/varnish finishes. Very easy to do, but it takes a long time to do it right.Rich
Rich,
My clients are reconsidering their choice, they really-really want a dark wood that will stay dark over time. Thanks so much for all of your help and advice, I'll probably be asking more questions once they've decided what type of wood they'd like to use.David
Really-really dark, huh? Show 'em wenge. That'll stay dark! It works very well, but really-really dulls tools. Heavy wood!
Heck, why not go all the way and make it out of ebony? Now there's a wood to reckon with! You'll be able to claim to be one of the few people in the world to actually do something other than small inlays with the stuff. And you'll develop big muscles just moving the it around. One small problem, though. For a project the size of a table, they'll have to mortgage their house for the material costs alone!
Have fun.
Rich
Rich,
Hah, they saw the ebony & were very attracted to it, until they saw the price ($60/BF). I'm already considering a chain hoist to be able to move the table top around by myself. Maybe a small winch, although I like the idea of a chain fall, doesn't require any power other than me. I'm estimating the top alone at 180-200# (36BF x 5#/BF), with the apron attached it should be right around 200#. I'm glad I've got a nice big beam right over my layout table.
I've recommended a number of other woods, including walnut (which they both liked), cherry (which the wife wouldn't look at), black limba (too light, needs to be stained), paduak, cocobolo (not sure I could get stock in the size I need), bubinga (both liked). I'll recommend the wenge as well. They'll eventually come to an accord & the project will be off and running.
I'll let you know what happens, thanks again for all of your help.
David
Oh, hell. These customers are pikers!Forget ebony.Tell them they MUST use African Blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon). A true rosewood. More precious than Brazillian.African Blackwood is to Brazillian rosewood as Brazillian is to East Indian.http://www.onlinewoods.com/onlinewoods/species.php?woodtype=14More dense than ebony. Much more rare and expensive. I doubt it is actually available as lumber. It's mostly used for wind instruments and guitar backs and sides. But they can organize a safari and come back with their personal trees for milling!Seriously, steer them to walnut. They want a dark wood. Dye it as dark as they want. A wonderful wood to work. No surprises. Tried and true. An American standard. Good price. Available from plain to fantastic figure. It will take any finish and is capable of magnificent performance in the hands of a real craftsman.Rich
Edited 5/4/2005 2:53 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
Ah, but walnut also is prone to bleach out over time....
Cheers,
Ray
Well Rich.
African blackwood does exist as lumber. In fact I have a supplier that still has it available at a cost of 2250 Euro per cubic meter, which at 423.776 board feet to a cubic meter is 5.31 euro a board foot or $6.90. This stuff is in Cantu' province of Como. Indian rosewood is at 150 Euro per 100 kilos.
Now you are thinking how is this possible. Well, from around 1950 to around 1975 rosewood was a commercial wood ( furniture industry ) then it got too inconsistent ,too costly ad not easily available. So.... what was left around in old lumber yards is still there. Hobby woodworking doesn't exist here, artisans use commercial species. Also rosewood got a bad image in the '70's because it was used in ways that were just plain ugly.
I bought about a cubic meter and a half mixed of Brazilian, Indian and African at these prices. Now for the problem, they are all Dalbergia but as you said before there are great differences even within the same species, so which is which.
Some are fairly obvious and ,for what it's worth ,the supplier tells me the original provienence but... they are not always exactly sure of the species or even the origin (since granddad was the guy that actually bought the stuff and he's dead) .
Now for the question , Know anyone to whom I could send samples to get positive identification of various species? ....... And don't tell me to send you 10 board feet of blackwood for identification purposes.
Oh , as to finishing you can finish with oil and it will polemerize, but ,this is a prossess to be used only by young woodworkers because you will grow old waiting for the oil to dry.
Philip
If you are interested you can drop by and I'll take you up to the supplier.
Philip,
You might try this book, he says that you can identify any wood with only a 3mm x 3mm sample (1/8" x 1/8") and a 10x loupe (included with the purchase of the book). http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32448&cat=1,46096,46127&ap=1
I don't know how to make it into a link in this forum, so just cut & paste the entire link into your browser. The name of the book if you just want to search for it is: "Identifying Wood" by Bruce Hoadley. Perhaps he's got a website & email address where he could be able to help you directly. I suspect this is him here: http://maps.library.umass.edu/tei/tei_facultydetails.cfm?facid=26 but I don't know for sure.
Where are you located? It sounds like Europe, and my clients are headed to Europe for a 2 month tour, possibly they could link up with your supplier & find some wood they like & have it shipped back to the states. Since the price is roughly half of what they're willing to pay for the Bolivian Rosewood, it may still fit their economy.
David
Yeah ,
I could arange that for your clients (northern Italy) but I don't recommend these woods for a dining table. First , they weight more than 1000kg per cubic meter,i.e. they sink in water. Second they are left overs from an industrial boom on this wood which means the come from different lots, different trees,so to match colour you would have to count at least a 100% over in material. also as has been already said in rosewood grain and character changes even with in a single board. Shipping would kill you for that amount of material , now if you were talking about getting 2 or 3 cubic meters it would be a different thing.Lastly the best stuff I already bought, like ,you would be amazed at some of the stuff I got.
I am a registered Architect and furniture designer. I personally don't see these woods as a wood for this purpose. If you want dark and consistent go with wenge. It's a good wood , we used to use it as wood flooring before wars in Africa ran the price up.It needs to have the pores filled but that is easy to do. IT will work well for a table,as long as the design lends itself to a dark wood (meaning not bulky) a light design that uses the visual weight of the wood to give substanance without too much visual weight. Big tables in dark wood are a bear to pull off well. Good luck.
IF you want to try to have a look at the stuff let me know.
Philip
wopVery good advice all around.I hope you realize some of my previous posts recommending ebony and African blackwood as choices were in jest. It was hyperbole based on the outrageous cost and the weight of these woods. They are for small accents, and other elegant touches.When David described his customers' desire for a table in very dark wood I cringed. I'm in a design phase at the moment in which I'm using maple for most everything. Just finished with several home remodeling projects using maple floors throughout, maple kitchen cabinetry, maple everywhere with dark accents in every room consisting of small pieces of padauk, teak, cocoblo. All large masses such as dining tables are maple. It is so pleasing to use the light wood. Very elegant and restful. Dark, ponderous masses right now are hard for me to take.Rich
Yeah,
I got it that your suggestions were a joke. I prefer medium and light woods for most things as well.I always admired the work of Alvar Aalto and his contemporaries in light woods. Here the market (high end) is mostly on medium woods of which I prefer European cherry, great wood. Pear is another of my favorites, but is much harder to use design wise because of it's inherent lack of character in the grain. Low end is using alot of tulip poplar stained in various ways.
Hard maple is a great wood ,wonderful to work with and ages well in furniture, with an elegant but not pretentious character. Often though it is difficult to insert into an existing home because of its contrast to "traditional" woods and furniture.
In spite of all this I have seen some really good stuff done in dark wood. but like I said it is a difficult thing to pull off. I think that using slender curved elements with soft edges is one of the keys. I recently started developing some designs of small tables in dark and colourful woods and this system seems to be working out well. The only flaw is this type of work is labor intensive either by hand or by pantografo (a machine for which I don't right off hand know the translation).
I find it fun to experiment with various woods in design but if I had to choose only one wood it would be European cherry.
Philip
Oh! one of my same suppliers also has Maccassar Ebony for 5 euro a kilo. Great stuff for building a table....just don't forget to reinforce your floor joists before bringing it into the house.
Yes. And we have pretty much hijacked David's thread!Rich
You are a very lucky guy to have that wood!
Rich
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