This article provides some details regarding the recent government ruling on power saw safety.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aaomG4adRvHY&refer=home
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Replies
thank you for the link! a very interesting read.
Good article. It points to the difficulty in getting table saw manufacturers to change their designs for better safety. I know that Stephen Gass rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way in trying to market SawStop, yet clearly he is on to something good, and is trying to recoup his investment in SawStop. I don't know how much R&D Powermatic had to spend to come up with their new tablesaw that features a riving knife, yet the saw sells for around the same price as the traditional US designed PM66. Safer saws can be made, and we woodworkers will buy them. I can't afford a SawStop yet, but I would buy one if I could. Tom
I don't know how much R&D Powermatic had to spend to come up with their new tablesaw that features a riving knife,
Riving knives are standard on European saws, so the info is out there on how they are made - R&D for incorporating one into an existing Cabinet saw would be pretty minimal. I do know know how many differant ways there are to make a riving knife but not likey to be too many, at least in any kind of an economical fashion.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Moksha, thanks for the heads up. Is it no supprise that the opposition was on the panel at UL? SEE WHAT MONEY AND LEVERAGE CAN DO FOR YOU. I am very sure that UL has a room full of engineers and have no need to invite the major competitors to participate. The bad news is that these views will never be seen by the public. I wish Saw Stop luck. Pat
What if Saw Stop were mandated by regulation, and the combination of the mechanism, royalties, and the necessarily more beefy mechanism to handle the stresses (likely to be the more expensive part) meant that the least expensive new table saw in the US cost $1,000?
What if it saved you a $5000.00 trip the the ER with follow up surgey and medication?
Jack
Hi Jack;
Gotta disagree with you on this one, what if you are one of the people who did your home work, did not put your hand in the path of the blade or pass your hand over the blade and had bought a power feeder and always used a proper push device? Why should you have to pay to protect a someone who did not ? The technology is great for those who need it or want it but should not be subsidized by those who don't. The society I wish to live in does not need lobbyists or government to dictate what my tools should be.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
dgreen,
The thing about this argument is that we all have to live with a certain level of regulation. How do we draw the line at where regulation has gone too far?I'm sure you're not suggesting that American manufacturers can be trusted to make all the right decisions about safe tool design. As we all know, if it came down to better safety or making more money...well, you see where I'm going. That's where regulation comes in.But how much regulation do we need? Manufacturing power cords and motors to certain standards seems to be OK with us. But is forcing a SawStop on every table saw too much? Is it too much to mandate riving knives?I agree that a lot of this can be taken care of through consumer choice. If a saw design is better and safer, people will buy it and the market will shift to favor of those that sell that design. But the thing that irks me about this is that a lot of consumers don't know enough about what's really better and safer. That, again, is where regulation comes in. But again, how much do we need?
Edited 10/11/2006 9:03 am ET by MatthewSchenker
"we all have to live with a certain level of regulation."Some of us need much more regulation than others. Even though regulations exist, many choose to avoid them. Speed limits are a most prominent example. If you are in the majority, you defy speed limits. (I don't, to the annoyance of many.) Furthermore, why do autos have seat belts and airbags while school buses and trains do not? It is difficult for me to comprehend the mother driving her kids to school at 15 MPH over the speed limit on a rainy day in a Volvo station wagon. Why spend all that money to be safe then override all systems while begging for greater safety from product manufacturers -- and neglecting the safety of our own children?BTW, why should table saws have blade brakes if jointers, bandsaws, and planers do not? If you like regulations, perhaps you should take up the cause WRT these tools. Don't forget hand tools such as power hand saws and routers. Don't they need regulation, too? If you need a Saw Stop, get one. I hope that you will not regulate me.IMHO, if Gass would set his price at what the market will bear rather than being greedy, his device might succeed on the market. Learn from Sony & Betamax.Cadiddlehopper
Maybe I am not getting something here. Most tablesaws have a saw guard which is designed to keep the fingers away from the spinning blades. If the machines would not run when the guards were removed would this be safer? If New York City is looking to introduce a law for less fat in foods are we safer? I guess what I am trying to say is that most of the tools in a normal shop, hand and power are dangerous except for maybe sandpaper and it is up to the user to use them safely. I think there is a bit too much government intervention in our daily lives. Who is responsible if I hit someone with my car? Certainly not the car maker, they don't have any control on how I drive. The Saw Stop is a good idea but it is way overpriced. Sell a few at a high price or sell a lot at a price most of us could afford.
GW52,
I agree with most of your comment, except the price of the Saw Stop saw. It is not overpriced.
The quality of the saw itself, minus the safety equipment is very high. I have not had a chance to use it, but I was able to examine the machine, and it is a very impressive piece of tooling, worth every bit of the current retail price, compared to any other commonly available table saw. The incremental cost of the safety feature itself is a pittance compared to cost of a lost finger, or worse.
My argument is with the philosophy of continuing to use the basic table saw design to cut wood the way that has been done with table saws for the last 100 years or so. There are much safer ways to do it that do not place the operator's hands anywhere near a spinning blade.
Sliding table saws and systems that use a circular saw on a guide are just 2 methods that make the saw stop an unnecessary invention. But, I don't think there is much chance that working habits are ever going to change.
Rich
You guys (on both sides of the fence, or the the blade guard, or the electromagnetic safety whatever) are making me think I should just learn to use handsaws and planes and leave electricity to those with kevlar fingers!
SC,
<<You guys (on both sides of the fence, or the the blade guard, or the electromagnetic safety whatever) are making me think I should just learn to use handsaws and planes and leave electricity to those with kevlar fingers!>>
As a hand-tool-only (hobbyist) woodworker, my suggestion to you would be to give it some serious thought.
Hand tools have many advantages: they are a lot quieter, cleaner (very little saw dust getting into your nose, lungs, eyes, ears, and everything else -- just lots of nice thin, fluffy shavings); healthier (you generally get a pretty good workout hand sawing or hand planing); relatively safer (you have to be pretty determined and work real hard to cut your finger off with a hand saw.....); often less expensive than the power tool equivalent (although this is not to say that quality hand tools are necessarily inexpensive...); result in a lower electric bill; give you a good excuse to drop your gym membership; and finally, for me at least, it's just plain fun.
So, give some thought to making your next project only with hand tools,and see how you like it and whether it might be for you. At the very least, you'll get some good experience with the tools (and will see where you might want to integrate hand tools into your power tool woodworking routine) and will get some decent exercise.Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
We all do dumb stuff all the time. Drive too fast, reach too far instead of climbing down and moving the ladder, etc. Most of the time nothing happens. What gov't mandated safety rules do is spread out the cost of our stupidity over an entire industry.
The auto industry once said seat belts were too difficult and expensive to install. Then it was shoulder belts, then airbags. Requiring them brought the price down and thousands of lives were saved, including, I suspect, some of us.
Another example is lawn mowers. People used to leave them running and get fingers and feet cut by reaching underneath. Now they are designed to shut off when you let go of the handle. While it is easy to say that people too stupid to shut the mower off deserve to get hurt, when it's your kid you'll feel differently.
We all agree too much regulation is a bad thing, but reducing the hazards associated with TS use makes sense. If every table saw was required to have a riving knife and some sort of blade brake by 2010, the manufacturers would comply, the cost would be minimal and we'd all be more likely to keep our fingers.
About half of table saw operation that I perform require that the blade guard be removed. It ain't just for ripping & crosscutting! Sandpaper on a belt/disc sander can do some painful damage, too. I think that you & I are in general agreement as to our attitudes toward machinery: It can be dangerous! Remember that at all times & act accordingly! (And don't EVER hurry!) If that means that someone wants to buy a SawStop for his own safety, it is his choice. I think that I should not force safe-working people to help pay for my own paranoia, if I suffered from it.Cadiddlehopper
"BTW, why should table saws have blade brakes if jointers, bandsaws, and planers do not? If you like regulations, perhaps you should take up the cause WRT these tools. Don't forget hand tools such as power hand saws and routers. Don't they need regulation, too? If you need a Saw Stop, get one. I hope that you will not regulate me."
Well in Europe they DO have run down brakes - mainly because accident investigations revealed a substantial proportion of accidents caused by bodily or scrap contact and ejection AFTER these machines had been switched off and wer running down
Scrit
Okay! As I wrote, "take up the cause."Cadiddlehopper
Already have done. 10 second braking became mandatory on all new machinery sold in the EU (DIY or trade use) in the year 2000 (although many manufacturers beat that date by as much as 7 or 8 years) and trade shops were given a rolling conversion period of 8 years to retrofit their equipment. A lot of small shop owners baulked at the costs but the accident statistics are supposed to be showing a steady reduction since the mid-nineties.
Scrit
Hi Scrit,I use an SCM 6-in-one combo and it stops within 3 seconds. From memory, the build date was 1995.Having been distracted near a saw that had pretty well run down to a standstill once, I support the PUWER regulations.Cheers,eddie
10 seconds!! How arbitrary can that be! I doubt that any tool that I own takes 10 seconds to coast to a stop. Are you quoting the correct figure here?Cadiddlehopper
He is. Some industrial machines will coast for two or three minutes before they'll come to a halt if not braked. We had a Wadkin bandsaw that would run for that long before it would stop. Then there was the spindle moulder that would just run and run. I've known 24" and greater diameter saws run for that length of time before they came to a halt.
On the other hand most of the dinky wee machines primarily sold to the amateur users stop pretty fast. Not all do, but most do. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
He is what? I don't know the question you answer. I still don't know what slainte means either. I couldn't understand your previous answer about it.Your information is appreciated. It is clarifying.It may be a good idea for us to know who are the amateur users (like myself) of dinky wee machines vs professional users of "real" machinery when we correspond with each other. It might be a good idea to set standards that are different for the two classes of machinery also. Industrial standards for hobbyist tools could cause the extinction of hobbyists (& vice versa?). The small shop owner who uses dinky wee & "real" machines deserves some special consideration also.Cadiddlehopper
"Are you quoting the correct figure here?"
That one. Maybe I missed the point? I didn't think I had.
In my terminology, 'dinky wee' just means small. It has nothing to do with a distinction between 'real' and 'amateur' machinery. One of the most vicious kickbacks I've ever experienced was with a 'dinky wee' lunchbox thicknesser, a Ryobi. It was a thin piece of wood being thicknessed, but it certainly smashed the 3 mm thick piece of wood back into my fingers hard enough.
In my experience, the small machines tend to have very little torque, poorer bearings, high speed whiney motors and rely on immediate access to power to get the job done (if that's the correct description). Start a small saw and it's almost instantly up to speed. Stop it and it's quite common for the business end comes to a halt quickly too-- that's not always the case, but it's common enough.
Start a big machine and it might take four or five seconds to gather full speed. In some cases starting a big machine is a two stage process. Switch to Start to get it going, wait until the appropriate speed has been reached and then switch to the Run position. As these machines gather speed I guess they also tend to generate torque (like a big flywheel is the best analogy I can think of), and with good bearings it's got much less friction in the power train to cope with, so the run-on after removing the motive power is often long if there's no braking. (Cheers) Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Did anyone else notice the licensing fee SS was asking, 8%? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember in previous threads, there were many hostile posts stating that SS was seeking a much higher percentage. Anyone remember those?
"10 seconds!! How arbitrary can that be! I doubt that any tool that I own takes 10 seconds to coast to a stop. Are you quoting the correct figure here?"
As Sgian Dubh correctly says 10 seconds is the mandated stopping time for almost all woodworking machinery in Europe and has possibly been adopted in other parts of the world like Australia and New Zealand (although I might need to stand corrected on that one). I've had 24inch bandsaws in the past, the sort bought by some home woodworkers these days, which will happily coast along for 4 to 5 minutes after powering off. Worse still I used to have a single end tenoner which would run for nearly 20 minutes. They do so almost silently, but the kinetic energy stored in the wheels or cutter blocks will still sever a finger without any hesitation if you are unwary enough to stick it in the blade. I'll hold my hand up and say that these days I am a professional woodworker, but I see no distinction in responsibility between a large employer and a small shop owner when it comes to safety. None! The cost of adding a DC injection brake at manufacturing stage is minimal - the benefits are demonstrable.
Scrit
I've got an Oliver 270 from 1939 that is the best saw I ever worked with, but when I turn it off, it spins for more than 5 minutes if I don't hit the break. The 16" blade sounds like a helicopter taking off.
My Northfield jointer (1957) doesn't have a break, and it spins for at least that long. It also takes about 3 seconds to get to full speed and torque.
I wouldn't trade either for any of the stuff being built today for under $20,000.00
Jeff
Edited 10/13/2006 5:51 pm ET by JeffHeath
Edited 10/13/2006 5:53 pm ET by JeffHeath
Yes, Jeff, but if you fitted DC injection brakes and maybe updated the guards a bit you'd have the best of both worlds - well almost. I'm currently rebuilding a 1950 White SK dimension saw (early 1930s design as far as I can tell) and when it's finished it will have a DC injection brake and modern electrics simply because they are safer. In other areas of manufacturing it is normal to apply control/safety refits periodically (for example planes) so why shouldn't the same apply to woodworking machines?
Scrit
I'm simi-pro, I used to think amputations were for the tired, unread, or just plain reckless, untill it happened to me. I uses feather boards and rollers when possible. I was cutting a saftey jig (yes I said safety) to hold a pat I didn't feel comfortable holding with my hand. While making the jig, falloff came back at me and I instintively moved to deflect the wood and contacted the blade. All four fingers were cut but I only have 1 inch of my index finger. I can defent myself from anything but automatic reactions.
I now use a unifence system and am waiting for the new SawStop contractor saw.
Even automatic reactions can be defended against if proper guards are in place.
I have held off as long as I could each time this argument has come up. But I am giving in to baser instincts and hopping into the fray.
I don't care if people want to use this product or not (free country and all) but there are three things I disagree with:
1. I don't like SawStop's doomsday tactics: "Not If But When" Give me a Break!!!Scare tactics like this are usually reserved for little old ladies. Remember the old "Help, I've fallen and can't get up!" ads?
2. I don't like the idea of being protected from myself which is what will happen if SawStop has its way.
3. I don't like SawStop's implications that there will not be any more amputations if you use their saw when in fact this is just not so. Fellas, the safety mechanism has an on-off switch. And, by the companies own admission, the saws safety feature will not operate properly under certain circumstances.
Usually, I try not to think the worst about people and companies, but, it has been my experience that when tactics like those mentioned above are used, greed rather than altruism is the motivator.
There. I said it. I feel better now. But having said all this I wonder if Mr. Murphy might be planning to pay me a visit. I think I'll go out and put the guard and splitter back on my Table Saw.
Bob
I think we should let the market decide.
-Paul
Absolutely.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I am not necessarily for a mandate for the sawstop system. But I have yet to see a market decision that results in higher quality or safer tools. On the contrary for every quality tool I see at the tool stores I see 10 poor quality ones.
The average tool buyer seems to be driven by their wallet (which doesn't undertsnad quality), and educated by the home improvment network (which is driven by sponsors). Can you actually expect them to make an informed decision on quality let alone safety?
Arguably we have already seen a decline in quality of the Unisaw, and PM 66. Because of market conditions they are now being produced overseas.
As with most items I think we will see the name brands decrease in quality as more and more of them try to meet market demands (of cheap low quality goods). Small companies such as Festool, Steel City (?) and Sawstop will pop up to fill in the holes for quality/safer tools. The issue being that only those that can spend the money for them will really benefit.
As someone who can afford these tools maybe I shouldn't care. In fact in the case of low quality tools, I pretty much don't. However when people are using unsafe tools, and are being injured because of the tools then I believe this is a problem for all of us.
Buster,
Yes, I do expect people to make informed smart decisions. Of course this isn't always the case. We are responsible for the choices we make. If someone wants a $99 "big box" saw or opts for a $3500 Sawstop that is up to him/her. I have always been of the belief that you shouldn't settle for lesser quality regardless of the price. If I have to wait to purchase- so be it.
I also don't like the idea of a mandate in this case. I just believe that this crowded tool market may well sort itself out . Especially if a good quality, cost effective and safe alternative makes the mainstream.
If a company such as Sawstop grabs enough market share you can bet the other guys will take notice and make changes to compete.
I hope this happens. I think we would all benefit from that sort of competition.
-Paul
Let the market decide..... I saw a demo of the Sawstop at the Woodcraft store in Seattle and based on that I think the market may decide sooner than later. There is in my opinion a lot of interest in the Sawstop. Even all of the other tool distributors were talking about it and watching with amazement. The Woodcraft salesman said the Sawstops have been selling like hotcakes. After 20 years of being a hobbyist woodworker I had a run in with my tablesaw about a year and a half ago. I lucked out and did not loose any fingers but did require stitches and my hand was out of commission for about eight weeks. It all happened so fast I am not sure what I did wrong since I successfully made the same cut on three other pieces of wood prior to the fourth something went wrong. While I don't appreciate the way the Sawstop guy tried get his device mandated he definitely deserves a lot of credit for his invention. After having an accident myself and knowing what it feels like when your finger come in contact with the blade is enough for me to decide I will be buying a Sawstop for the safety it provides. Before I cut my fingers I was never a proponent of the Sawstop and thought it was a waste of money. Like most people once you been there your opinion will most likely change. If you ever get a chance to see a demo you will be amazed how quick the blade drops and only leaves a 1/32-1/16 inch deep cut in the hotdog.
"...he definitely deserves a lot of credit for his invention." I think he deserves even more credit for putting his money (and his energy) where his mouth is -- taking on and successfully completing the mission to bring the saw to production. And making a fine saw to boot!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I am not necessarily for a mandate for the sawstop system. But I have yet to see a market decision that results in higher quality or safer tools. On the contrary for every quality tool I see at the tool stores I see 10 poor quality ones.
That's because purchasers want low cost first and then try to justify the poor quality on the backside of the purchase decision. You've been around here long enough to have seen several, bright shining examples of just this type of consumer.
The marketplace is providing exactly what a lot of people want - low cost tools of marginal quality. First time purchasers have no reference point with which to judge the quality of a tool other than for the opinion of other first time purchasers who are equally as mesmerized by slick tool catalogs (with embossed covers) and peppy ad copy and are deeply invested in post-purchase justification to the point of being surly.
Edited 10/12/2006 3:23 pm ET by CStanford
True ,, the market will decide for now.
Here's what I see,,, these saws will become standard for all teaching facilities. This is where one will encounter all the new users and where the learning curve is steepest. This will come about not because of the market but because the cost of litigation, not medical expense, will make this saw a bargain. Not having them in this setting will be indefensible. Once a new generation is exposed to this saw, a consumer model will appear, increased demand will trim production costs and this will become at least high end affordable.
I am setting up a program now, and there is no doubt that we will use the Saw Stop saws exclusively.
Borads of directors are extremely nervous about any type of exposure and the cost difference here is insignificant in that regard.The inventor would do much better to stop whining about what the industry does or does not want, and focus on the next generation of woodworkers. Finding grants to get these saws into every teaching facility in the country is very possible, and would provide the ideal friction free platform it takes to launch a new product like this. creating demand from the bottom up is a very basic tactic.... yes it takes time, but results in solid change.
Here's what I see,,, these saws will become standard for all teaching facilities.
With the demise of high school shop classes those are few and far between. Certainly not enough to keep a company afloat, IMO.
hitai,
"I am setting up a program now, and there is no doubt that we will use the Saw Stop saws exclusively. "
That's an interesting statement.
Why, given the opportunity to teach a generation who has no pre-conceived notions as to the "expedient" way to get work done, and with a healthy desire to avoid costly lawsuits, why would you not embrace the opportunity to do it right?
Why continue to teach the Neanderthal concept of cutting a piece of wood, by pushing a potentially unwieldy, heavy material through cutting equipment with bare hands, requiring muscle power simultaneously with intense mental concentration in a potentially mind-boring, repetitive action, that places body parts within fractions of an inch of the cutters?
Why use Saw Stop machines exclusively? Why not opt for a sliding table type saw? With a sliding table, the work can be securely locked to the table for cross cutting or ripping, the work can be easily guided into the blade while the operator calmly stands several feet to the side, needing neither significant muscle power, nor great concentration to prevent sudden misalignment and kickback or other danger. Properly taught, the operator never need get near the working parts during a cut. That's the way operators of metal cutting machines are trained.
Sliding table machines such as Felder or Hammer are available for not much more than a Saw Stop machine. They contain technology and examples of fit and finish to put older designs (Saw Stop, Delta, Powermatic, etc., etc.) to shame.
Teach a generation of American woodworkers on such equipment, and not only will they be trained to higher standards of safety, but they will insist that manufacturers produce the kind of superior equipment they know and expect.
Rich
Edited 10/12/2006 3:30 pm ET by Rich14
Bloody damn well said....
While the price of those machines may indeed compete with the sawstop, the entry level person they are training, at some point will likely buy a machine. Training on a machine with that is "vastly" different than what they would use at home (or wherever else) would be as good as no formal training at all. Yes, insist on the manufacturers include the features (but not willing to pay for them). I understand the reasoning, but if everyone really could choose safety over cost, we would all drive a mercedes or a volvo, unfortunately most do not, and have to compromise.
As for those that work with metal, I have seen plenty of "old school" machinist who have lost or crushed fingers, one good eye, one bad eye. All results of human error as well as machine failure. Point being, be as safe as you can be, learn from someone who is qualified to train you, and practice safety continuously. Yes there are benefits to using the sliders and clamping systems, but there are many, lots on this forum, who use these machines safely on a regular basis. Some safer than others, but they do know the machines they use and take the precautions necessary to keep all of the parts given to them at birth.
I am a high school teacher and you would be amazed at how quickly kids (and adults) are to use machines/equipment that they have no business using. The common response is "My dad has one, I know how to use it" and then proceed to tell me how it works and they have no idea. Or the kid who will attempt to turn on equipment, "adjust" wheels, knobs and switches that they obviously have no idea about.
Sawstop will likely be a requirement (or strongly recommended by their insurance providers) in schools at some point, either by legislation (state level - dept of education), or litigation (lawsuit the might contend that the school was negligent by not offering the safest tool available) or by the insistence of the insurance providers (bring the premiums down).
Donkey
All the market can do is make or save money, regardless of doing the right thing.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Absolutely true.
Although I might agree with most of what you have said, I can't think of any business that is not motivated by greed or at least by profit. Also, that is what keeps them in business.
I agree 100%. I have no problem with a free market concept. Businesses should be able to compete on their own merits for customer dollars. What I don't like about SawStop is that they are trying to get government support to force other manufacturers to utilize their product. Sorry, I don't think it is right.
If the SawStop safety mechanism is really as good as they say it is then, in time, it or something like it will become the norm all on its own without government support. If people like it they will buy it. If they don't like it, find out why and try again.
I'll tell you why I won't buy it. First, it still costs too much. Second, it will not work under all the circumstances I work under. A few months out of the year 25% - 30% of the work I do on a table saw is with wet wood. I mean wet in that last week it was a tree wet. After running 10 - 20 feet thru it My right arm is soaked with spray from the wood. For this work I would have to turn the safety thingy off. Now it is not doing a single thing for me that most other saws could not do. Should I be forced to buy something that will only protect me from myself 70% of the time?
Bob
Your rehashing the same argument that was made at the begining of this thread (and most every other Sawstop thread).
There are some very good arguments regarding the "free markets" ability to increase quality and safety. There is also some very good arguments regarding government regulation of safety features.
Concerns about cost are a very big issue, and I think one of the biggest challenges Sawstop faces. I have yet to see any real arguments on why this is not a good saw.
Should I be forced to buy something that will only protect me from myself 70% of the time?
Arguing cost and government regulation is irrelivant as the price would drop drastically if it were mandate.
"Your rehashing the same argument that was made at the begining of this thread"
Sorry Buster2000. Didn't realize I had to clear my posts through you.
Bob
DG,
The only short fall of your post, that I see , is the people that I have talked to that have hurt themselves the most seriously on a table saw were all well experienced woodworkers not beginners. Most of the Farmers that get hurt or injured by equipment are long time farmers. I believe that one cause is that experience and familiarity with tools and equipment has a tendency to lessen fear and caution.
Jack
True for motorcyclists as well. Most accidents don't happen to people who've been riding for six weeks, it's people who have been riding three to four years. The newbies are still scared and careful, while the intermediate riders feel they can handle it all.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I believe that one cause is that experience and familiarity with tools and equipment has a tendency to lessen fear and caution.
Beyond this there is also the misguided belief: "I've been doing it this long and I've never been hurt, so I must be doing it right."
Most of us have made a dumb cut, and got away with it. Something we would never do again. Sometimes we repeated the cut and got away with it, sometimes we done it dozens of times... But it really only takes once.
For the most part I agree with you. I do not like Government regulations, but the same argument can/was made for seat belts in cars and helments for bikes and motorcycles.
did not put your hand in the path of the blade or pass your hand over the blade and had bought a power feeder and always used a proper push device
By the time you factor in the cost of the power feeder added to the cost of the saw and you may have the cost or better of the sawstop. It will be intersting to see the price they put on their Contractor saw when it comes out.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
I remember quite clearly that in our high school shop class, kids would often forget to turn machines off after use. Because of the noise level in the shop, a jointer could run for the whole hour without anyone realizing it was on. Bandsaws and table saws too. These machines should at least have a bright red light on the starter box to indicate when the power is on.
If I were setting up a high school class, we would use a five-foot slider for crosscutting, and a dedicated bandsaw for ripping solid stock with a pass thru the planer to follow. I would try to eliminate the TS for all but a few specialty operations, which would require careful supervision.
dgreen
The technology is great for those who need it or want it but should not be subsidized by those who don't. The society I wish to live in does not need lobbyists or government to dictate what my tools should be.
I couldn't agree with you more. This is still a free country. What would be next? A mandate requiring 20 minutes of foreplay before sex? What if the Bear game starts in 15? Perhaps skim milk with my cereal only, instead of 2%? Well stated.
Jeff
Edited 10/13/2006 5:50 pm ET by JeffHeath
20 minutes of foreplay before sex!!?
D a m n. ! I draw the line right there. What is this country coming to? They can require me to use that confounded Saw Stop but I absolutely refuse to go beyond 19 minutes of foreplay.
That Hilary probably had something to do with this.
Enough is enough! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!
So do you think they shouldn't mandate brakes on all four wells of an automobile because not every one drives fast, or that they shouldn't mandate the minimum hight that electrical wires are strung because only some of the people drive vekicles taht are tall, or that they should do away with the national electric code because only some people wouldn't have enough sense to keep filling a wire to see if it's over heating.
Jack
Hi everyone,
No I didn't read all 66 posts up to this point. But man-o-man, am I drooling at the prospect of getting some super duper industrial strength table saw from the 50's or 60's when OSHA mandates that the commercial shops must have the new Saw Stop cabinet saw in their shops.
Ohhhh Ahhh.....(rubbing hands together, drooling) all that cast iron, all 14 or 16 inches of spinning blade at my disposal.......Ohhhh ahhh.....all that horsepower
Will the price on scrap iron drop like a rock when all these all old Table Saurs and Bandsaurs have to be taken to the scrap heap?
Ya know, the Saw Stop is like the bicycle helmet and the seat belt. The true effect of Darwinism is being side swiped by all this regulation to protect ourselves....well from ourselves.....
Hate to say it, but little Jimmy from down the street...well he should have been taken out of the gene pool when that car hit him last year
Oh! I could just rant!
That was partly tongue in cheek, BTW
"... man-o-man, am I drooling at the prospect of getting some super duper industrial strength table saw from the 50's or 60's when OSHA mandates that the commercial shops must have the new Saw Stop cabinet saw in their shops.
Ohhhh Ahhh.....(rubbing hands together, drooling) all that cast iron, all 14 or 16 inches of spinning blade at my disposal.......Ohhhh ahhh.....all that horsepower"
Dream on! SawStop only make a couple of tiddly little 10in saws - the commercial shops generally look to 12in, 14in, 16in or larger saws. And do you think the big boys like SCM, Altendorf, Martin, etc are going to let it happen without some sort of retrofit kit that they can make money out of - I don't think so. I think they have some way to go before they can play with people that make proper woodworking machinery ;-)
Scrit
Edited 10/14/2006 4:53 am by Scrit
Edited 10/14/2006 4:54 am by Scrit
In my opinion, the argument that you make is extreme. I won't be driving my tablesaw into a family of 6 on the way home from church, and I won't be swinging from the high voltage wires like George of the Jungle any time soon.
I've been operating a tablesaw safely for about 20 years, give or take a month or two. I don't want to live in a society where everything is laid out exactly how the government planned it. Where does this nonsense stop.
If you want to buy a saw with a stop on it, go for it. Just don't push that crap on me.
I use my bandsaw at least as much, if not more than my tablesaw. Do I need a stop for that as well? What about my jointer? Maybe my planer should come with a forcefield that only allows wood to pass through the front opening, and not anything belonging to a body.
The blade is not the only dangerous thing on a tablesaw. What mechanism on a Sawstop prevents COMPLETELY the possibility of a kickback. How do we force the manufacturers to make them kickback-free!?! Oh, and don't slip and smack your head on the cast iron top either. That'll leave one helluva mark!
BTW, give me a call tomorrow when you cross the street, so I can walk in front of you to stop traffic. It's dangerous out there, and you might not see that truck coming.
Give me a break, will you?
Jeff
all four wells of an automobile I'm assuming you meant wheels?
Edited 10/14/2006 12:07 am ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,
I don't understand. You said "What would be next? A mandate requiring 20 minutes of foreplay before sex? What if the Bear game starts in 15? Perhaps skim milk with my cereal only, instead of 2%?” Then you call my references to safety features as extreme.
By the way I met a woodworker last year at the wood show that had been using a table saw for over 40 years with no accidents until 3 months before the show . He said it would be another 3 months or more before he would be able to use it again.
I’ve been driving for nearly 50 years and have not had an accident does that mean I don’t need insurance?
Jack
And yes I did miss-type wheels.
You wrote this:
"I don't want to live in a society where everything is laid out exactly how the government planned it."Obviously, this discussion is not just about woodworking for you. It gets at something much farther down in your psychology.Do you really see the SawStop debate as a threat?
Jeff, <<...20 minutes of foreplay before sex?>> Wow, I thought foreplay was just saying something like, "Brace yourself Meg..." ;-)Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
That's not the real issue. How many would become amateur woodworkers if their first saw cost $1,000? What if the only car that could be sold was the size of a Hummer and cost $50k? People would be safer in such a car, once everyone had them. Lives would be saved.
And, if strict economic rationality is called for, if the probability of needing the $5,000 ER trip over the life of the saw is 1% then you would only pay $50 to avoid that risk. If the probability is 5%, then you would pay $250 to avoid the risk. I assert that with care my risk, over the life of a table saw is way less than 5%. I'll throw in the pain and suffering as the penalty for stupidity, since that's the only way you put your hand into the moving blade.
For that matter, what the SawStop prevents is not the risk of injury, but the inconvenience of using a proper blade guard. Given that most woodworkers not subject to OSHA don't use the blade guard, it pretty much implies that woodworkers aren't willing to pay very much to keep themselves from running a hand into the blade.
Don't forget the power of lobbying. You know that the SawStop people lobbied long and hard for this. Not to mention the other factor...it's not necessarily the truth, but the fear of what the court case will look like. Here is Johnny's attorney, "So Mr. Whatever the Title, Johnny here cut his hand off using a table saw, and just last year you were presented with the opportunity to make the Saw Stop technology the industry standard. So, ignoring the fact that Johnny had 12 beers in him, was working in the shop at 3 am, had innadequate lighting, and was attempting to saw the bark off of a freshly felled maple log, Mr. Whatever the Title, isn't it your fault that Johnny lo longer has a left hand?" I think Mr. Whatever the Title will be signing the bill.
You think Mr. Gass has more lobbying power than Black & Decker, and Home Depot (Ridgid) and Bosch and Ryobi and Sears and .....just to name some of the makers of sub-$1,000 table saws.
SteveSchoene,
Just a couple of things. First, I don't know of a $5000 hand injury, it's more like $25,000 to $50,000 with the surgery and OT. Second, you already are paying for those injuries through your insurance...the charge is about 200% of the expected value.
You are probably correct on both counts--the $5,000 number was just in the example given, and I incorrectly ignored insurance.
Of course, insurance means there would be even less individual economic interest in paying for SawStop since the costs will be spread over lots of non-woodworkers as well.
Steve, I surely don't want a government mandated Sawstop and look to it as puting some light on the US saw companies flagrent disregard for safety over profit. What really ticks me off is the saw companies rabid use of power and political influence. Pat
My guess is that if any regulations were passed regarding this technology it would affect saws that were in professional shops for professional use. This would be another regulation enforced by OSHA, not an industry wide standard that would increase the price of every machine sold with a moving blade.
As far as BDK, SWK, HD, and LOW having more pull than SawStop...probably. But you would also think that the entire restaurant industry, all their smoking patrons, and all the indifference among the non-smokers would have more pull than the few worker's that wait tables and wash dishes but can't afford to get a different job. I don't work in a production shop, but I can certainly understand why somebody that is not self employed and earning an hourly wage may want this regulation under those circumstances.
I don't think that there is any threat of the cheapest saw seeing a 250% increase.
On a slightly different note: the most ridiculous part of this article is the statement that "efforts to examine sensing technology [for a competing technology] were being hindered by the 'web of patent applications Mr. Gass has filed... [Mr. Gass is] using a safety issue to profiteer."
Next they will say that generic drug makers should be able to start producing a new drug to the market once the creator has completed both the decades of reasearch and FDA trials, not to mention the hundreds of other ideas that failed along the way. Since when can't somebody make a buck off their life's work?
It's kind of similar, in a twisted way, to the seat belt law. When some were pushing to make airbags standard equipment in all vehicles...even retrofitting already manufactured vehicles (if I'm not mistaken) the response by the auto manufacturers was to lobby for the mandatory seat belt usage law. Do you think auto manufacturers really cared whether people used seat belts or not? But it worked. Of course, now airbags are pretty much standard equipment on every car. Mr. Gass may end up winning the battle, but losing the war, as manufacturers will find alternative technology. If he thinks that the powerhouse manufacturers are going to pony up and pay a premium to licence his technology, he is mistaken.
UL sometimes causes more problems than it solves. I know of this through my experiences with Festool. A lot of new Festool tools get hung up at the UL-approval stage. The people at UL analyze the tool's safety and design, and sometimes make the company alter the design for the American market. But the strange thing is, Festool tools start off safer than their American equivalents! So it becomes this ritual where the tool is altered just because it does not fit the pre-existing American idea of safety, which is not as safe as the German standard. Which means that UL causes the company to reconsider a safer design, in the name of safety. Some Festool tools that are really terrific cannot be sold here at all because it would cost the company too much money to alter their design for the American market. Weird.Of course, there are other basic standards that UL looks for, but those are not the ones that hang up the approval process.
Edited 10/11/2006 9:01 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Matt, how true it's a poor mix, rich and powerful manufacturers. young engineers looking to make their bones and hook up with a fat position working for a big mfg all within the very complex and self serving rules and regulations of the testing lab.
On regulations, I have a friend who as a young architect/builder did dozens of very high end "summer" homes in the Hamptons (just little 1 to 3mil hideaways) and made a lot of bucks. He rewards himself with a nice sports car, a lambourgini (sp) I think. It was held up for weeks on the NJ docks as the 4 point air craft type safety belts were removed to install our standard 1970's(approved) lap belt. Pat
UL, NHTSA, Europe, is what, smarter or dumber for being more safety minded? Didn't NHTSA and UL get their beginning because their need was so significant to a segment of society? If I were Saw Stop I would send a CD to every insurance company in Canada and the US. When they see the economic advantages to their payouts they can respond in such a way that no others can. Money still talks louder and more clearly than 'cheeper' and more 'dangerous'. Isan't that why there called ACCIDENTS, they had no plans to lop of a finger that day it just happened. The same can happen to any one of us on any given day.The three commercial cabinet makers I know have all suffered various digit losses. One was out a year and lost his business, Another removed the thumb 20 years ago. He turned 80 in January, still no guard, or knife. he was out several months. he still works 6 days a week. The third lost 3 fingers, and cut his hand. Only one finger was saved. He's back to work after being out for many months. He also has limited use and feeling in that hand. Would they have benefited from a Saw Stop type device? What if they ware mandated 25 years ago, this wouldn't evan be a discussion?In a few years we can look back at this debate and say thanks for the inventors who had the determination to risk it all for the brass ring. The vast majority of forward thinkers just don't make it. I for one wish I had the resources to buy a SS. I must admit that since this SS issue has been on the board I have done more with hand tools.Safety costs very little when compared to the amount of production lost. Not to mention pain, and suffering.
Ron
For me, the point is not so black-and-white. It's not just "regulation" versus "no regulation." Most reasonable people know we have to live with a certain degree of regulation, even in a free society. The question is, how much do we need? That's where we have debate and decisions to make.
We can discuss what kinds of regulations are needed in woodworking machinery. But one thing I know, I don't trust manufacturers to decide what's safe. Another thing I know, we aren't doing American manufacturers any favors by avoiding this question of better safety design. Why? Because other companies, from other countries, will push ahead and develop safer equipment, and that equipment will sell. Then what will happen to the companies that held back?
But let's not use extremes here. Both sides can create straw men. You can say the government is going to tell you what kind of milk to drink with your coffee. But I can also take an extreme and say, let's have no more of those pesky traffic lights!! From now on, stopping for a red light is optional!! We don't want government telling us when to step on the gas and when to step on the brakes!!
So, I think we should move away from the overly simplistic arguments and realize that it's all a balance.
Edited 10/14/2006 8:27 am ET by MatthewSchenker
"Another thing I know, we aren't doing American manufacturers any favors by avoiding this question of better safety design. Why? Because other companies, from other countries, will push ahead and develop safer equipment, and that equipment will sell. Then what will happen to the companies that held back?"
Well, to be honest that's what has already happened in the industrial sector - where is the American equivalent of SCM, Altendorf, Martin, Cassadei, Agazanni, et al? And for that matter where do most of the "American" table saws come from? Taiwan and China. So for high tech or low cost you'll probably end up going offshore......
My tongue in cheek crack about the long established cabinet shops quickly and cheaply getting rid of their old tablesaws was directed more to the older models. Not SCM, or Aganazzi, or any of the newer stuff. I'm talking Tannewitz, Oliver, Walker-Turner, Crescent. Ya know the kind of stuff I'm talking about, lots and lots of iron in them ol' tools, where you would need a forklift to get the tool into your shop, and your shop better have a concrete floor.
Yep, them kinda tools!
Ya know....it's probably not going to be the government (OSHA) initially mandating this stuff.
It will be medical costs, like we all know they have skyrocketed already, right? Yep, the high cost of surgery on a hand or a finger if one were to get hacked up by a regular tablesaw. In turn, that will push the insurance companies and workman's comp companies to force their clients, the cabinet shops, to either get a Saw Stop or risk paying ever increasing insurance premiums.
Of course, while that is going on, the insurance lobby will be all over Congress to legislate the use of new features which worded into OSHA regs will get as close as possible to explicity saying "Saw Stop must be used" w/o actually saying Saw Stop.
The insurance lobby is a big deal. Look! They got it so everyone is supposed to wear seat belts now. Cars have airbags. Everyone has to buy liability insurance. Construction companies have to do pre-employment drug screenings and then do randoms every so often so they get a break on their premiums.
And I think here in IL, Big Insurance even lobbied the state for a special pistol season for whitetail deer because car-deer strikes were becoming so common and so expensive for them.
Chills,What's interesting about your idea is what it would mean philosophically. Assuming your scenario is correct, it means we would see mandates on one industry due to pressure from another industry based on profits or the harm to their bottom line. In other words, it would be the very market forces that many of us praise that would be responsible for bringing about regulations that many of us dislike!
Edited 10/14/2006 8:46 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
<<But I can also take an extreme and say, let's have no more of those pesky traffic lights!! From now on, stopping for a red light is optional!! We don't want government telling us when to step on the gas and when to step on the brakes!!>>LMAO.....you obviously don't live here, where -- except for a handful of intersections with photo enforcement -- stopping for a red light IS largely optional.....Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Jeff,
You missed my major point, you used an unrelated extreme ,regulating foreplay , then chided me as using extremes when I referenced other safety features. Then you go on to tell me to move to China because I didn’t fully agree with you. I think its good that you have decided to opt out of this discussion because you don’t want to discuss it you just want to berate others who don’t agree with you..
I believe the saw stop will be adopted because the tort lawyers will get involved and force the other manufacturers to pay large settlements in a class action suit. It will have to do with money not safety.
Jack
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