I’m just wondering how many of you use your table saw blade guard. I’m a newbie with a Craftsman table saw. When I assembled the saw I purposely left off the blade guard because in Norm’s “garage workshop” how-to video, he doesn’t have the guard on his saw. I built the workshop, always being careful to use push sticks and to know where my hands were. I’m just wondering if I just got lucky and should really consider attaching the blade guard. I really don’t want to do it.. but I’m disposed to listening to reason from more experienced hands. Thanks.
bill
Replies
Bill,
Listen up. USE THE BLADE GUARD. Norm is a bad example about that kind of thing. Sometimes he leaves it off for visual clarity. Sometimes because he just doesn't use it. Some people think that using a table saw is a macho thing and that the guard is for amateurs or sissies. Some people are too lazy.
Most North American blade guards have anti-kickback pawls on them and you need that. Also, the blade guard and the splitter are one and the same. If you dont have the blade guard on, (and there ARE operations which force you to remove it), at least have some other kind of splitter on the saw (there are many ways to do this.)
The guard also makes whatever dust collection system you may have more effective.
Rich
Guards: No.
Honestly, used it once, then, the first time I had to make a cut requiring removal, (probably a dado or whatever), took it off, never put back on. If I weren't so lazy, I'd take the guard off my miter saws as well, (just cursing that guard the other day).
Greg
>>used it once, then, the first time I had to make a cut requiring removal, (probably a dado or whatever), took it off, never put back on.
Which is why more people should complain to their manufacturers and insist that they join the 21st century by including Euro-style riving knives and/or quick-release guards. A riving knife like those on Inca and some other saws can be left in place for all through and non-through cuts with the standard blade, and a crown (overhead) guard can even be left in place simultaneously.
View Image >View Image
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm,
That's just the riving knife. Can you post a picture of the crown guard?
Rich
Wish I could, Rich, but that's what I haven't built yet! I started to say that in the previous message, then backed down, precisely because I don't know when I'm going to be able to do it. That's primarily a function of space in my case, and a necessarily mobile saw. I haven't figured out how to build an arm to hold an overhead guard--one that would accommodate wide workpieces--due to the narrow space I have to work in. So I have to confess: I use the riving knife all the time, but I don't use the guard (with pawls) except when doing very unwieldy pieces that I fear may get out of hand. And as I mentioned in another message, it's my opinion that we need not only riving knives, but riving knives and guards with quick-release mechanisms that would encourage people to actually use them more frequently.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm,
Here are two images I downloaded from Felder's site
http://www.felderusa.com
Utter simplicity. Attaches to the top of the riving knife.
thats a real simple and efective design, I like it!
Euro style guards are a substantial improvement over the standard that comes with most saws sold in America. Like you say, I think part of the problem may lie with manufacturers, who seem to need a kick in the pants to innovate, sometimes. But, let's face it, consumers, generally, aren't willing to fork out the extra $$$ for the "euro" style guard.
There are several aftermarket guards out there, some which look pretty good. One I had for a while, but don't use anymore either. The "old style" Brett guard had me doing things to feed stock thru that scared me. This was due to it's (I believe) overly restrictive nature. All guards have their shortcomings, some more than others. It's up to the user to make his/her peace with them, depending on experience, application, technique, etc.
Funny, a little while ago I was reading (on the throne) an old Rockwell/Delta booklet, about table saws (from "Getting the Most from...." series") It basically says the same thing. First it acknowledges the short comings of the standard guard/splitter arrangement, then recommends novices use the guard for a while, till they get comfortable using the saw. Politically incorrect by todays standards, but certainly more realistic.
Greg
Bill,
I always knew where my hands were too...until I accidently ran my thumb too close while reaching to push a piece out of the way. I thought my thumb was above the tip[ of the blade...least it looked as though it was...WRONG! Cut the tip of my thumb off and had to have plastic surgery performed to correct the problem. I did this on my 10 inch Craftsman Tablesaw at the time. Like you, I had the blade guard off.
I got rid of that saw, and bought me a Powermatic 66. Best move I ever made...night and day between the two saws.
I try to leave my guard on as much as possible, but there are instances when the guard must come off for certain operations.
My suggestion to you is not to copy Norm's work habits or myself or anyone else's, but to rely on what you are comfortable with doing when working in your own shop. If you ever feel uncomfortable doing a wood working procedure, then step back, take a breath, and figure if there is a safer alternative that you can use. In almost every situation, there are always more than one way to perform the same cutting operation...sometimes hold downs or jigs are required, or the use of a different cutting tool altogether.
You can always buy an aftermarket blade guard that can be lowered down in place and simply raised up out of the way in the blink of an eye when your operation calls for the guard to be removed.
One thing to consider is when removing your Craftsman blade guard, you are also removing the splitter and your anti-kickback pawls; since this is all connected to it. When simply ripping wood without these attachments, you do run the risk of a board binding and possibly kicking back into you...which can seriously do you harm. Just something to think about.
In the end...this blade guard/no blade guard decision is up to you...so base it on your own merits...not because of something you saw on TV or in a magazine. Most times blade guards are removed for TV and Magazine articles so you the viewer can get an unobstructed view of how to set your machine up for a particular cut....it doesn't mean these guards are never used.
LOL.
Davo
Bill, you ask an intriguing question. There seems to be two schools of thought. One says that guards are used religiously and if you can't see exactly what you are doing, oh well, at least you won't get hurt. Doing 'gross' work, one probably should. The other "school" says if you don't use a guard, you can keep better track of what you are doing and have better control of the work. Personally, I prefer to keep track and maintain control. (There are times when you cannot use a guard anyway.) You will come to realize that keeping track of what's going, on or what is about to happen, is half the 'fight'. You are on the right track by using push sticks and I would recomend feather boards as well. Having a splitter behind the blade is very important to prevent your material from rotateing into the back of the blade, and thus serving as "facial decoration", or implants, if you know what I mean. A table saw is by far the most dangerous machine in your shop and should be respected as such. Please do not take my lack of a guard as "Cavalierism". Far from it. I have a 3hp Powermatic 66 and am fully aware that this thing can kill someone in a blink. I do not allow anyone to stand behind it when its running, There are no "glitches" on the table or throat plate to hang up or bias the work piece. I use zero clearance throat plates, there is a kick plate on the switch that I can use to turn off the saw with my knee, the top is well waxed so that the wood will slide across it easy, I use push sticks and feather boards to control the work piece AND most importantly, the saw has my full complete and undivided attention when I use it.
Back to your question of guard or no guard, it's up to you. A guard will not relieve you of the obligation to be careful. There in no such thing as a perfectly "safe" tool. Power or otherwise. The most dangerous tool is one that will not cut easly, or is awkward to use.
Happy woodworking.
I have a European-style table saw, and I leave the blade guard (crown guard) attached. There's no reason to take it off, except to change blades.
Of course this is a whole different animal. On European saws, the guard helps the worker, rather than hindering him.
Don,
YES!
I was hoping someone would say that. Blade guards on American saws are terrible. Even so, there is no reason why all setups for accuracy cannot be made before the guard is lowered. I am pro-guard use.
If I were the table saw czar, all saws would be fitted with riving knives and crown blade guards.
Rich
Thank you for your advice and input. I still have my blade guard/splitter assembly on a shelf. I don't whether it's more awkward to store the durn thing or to mount it. I've nearly thrown it away twice but kept it up there taking up too much space. I'm still not decided but I'm leaning towards attaching it.. because I'm one of those guys who is a tad accident prone (especially at 55, he he). I don't know what a Powermatic 66 is, or who makes it, but I'm very happy with my big Craftsman with the extended table and premium rip fence. Again, thanks for all the great points to ponder.
bill
My vote: use it, use it, use it! This is my vote for all levels of experience, but especially for a "newbie" as you have yet to encounter the various propensities of a blade spinning with ferocity near your various body parts!! And it's not just your hands that are in danger -- I've been saved from getting bonked from a kick-back by the blade guard a couple of times.
When you're working with your saw, there are going to be lots of different thought processes going on in your head, and you could easily get distracted. A blade guard between you and the blade could very well save you from serious injury. I used a bench-top saw for several months that did not have a BG, and the switch to one that did have one was very much better.
Now, I have a Jet contractor's saw. The guy I got it from provided the blade guard but no bolt for the mounting bracket. Haven't been able to get a bolt that fits, so it's jury-rigged with two less-than-perfect bolts, and is a royal pain to remove/re-install when I have to (dadoes), but I wouldn't be without it.
Even if you decide to leave it off :-( the next owner of your saw would likely want it -- this may not be your forever-and-ever saw!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,
Re: the missing part on your blade guard: Jet may send you the part for free ( or just shipping) just to get you to use the guard and lower their liability. They are suppose to be so good at support....
And thanks for the info on the link belt.
Edward
Edited 9/26/2002 12:33:52 PM ET by EFARMER4
FG-
You responded to me not too long ago and I never thanked you. Thank you.
Now on to the subject at hand:
I want to build an outfeed table for my Jet cabinet saw. This of course is difficult with their blade guard/splitter which I refuse to do without.
Do you have any recommendations on the after market guards and splitters? Some have mentioned the Bies splitter and guard.
Going to a show here in NJ this wknd. Havent been to one in prob 20 yrs.
Looking for the above, also the mesa vista feather board system and a miter gauge (you responded to me on that one). Any opinions on the Woodhaven gauge? looks nice but not cheap.
Thanks for any help you may be able to offer. Is your outfeed home-built, and hinged?
Happy wood...
Johnny
Where and when is the show?
Alan - planesaw
Garden state exhibit center
Somer set NJ (off of 287)
Fri-Sat-Sun this wknd
hope you make it. I'm going Sunday
see http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com
Ciao
Hi Johnny, sounds like you're gonna be having some fun! I have the Merlin splitter on my old Jet contractor saw. If I had your saw, I'd probably go for the Biesemeyer (Bies doesn't make one for my saw). As to overhead guards, due to $$ constraints, I'm looking at the one by Penn State INdustries (there's a thread around with info on that one, LMK if you can't find it) as it's only $200 as opposed to $400+ for all the others I've seen.
When evaluating the various guards, you'll want to see how easily they accomodate different thicknesses of wood and how they might impact working with large sheet goods. I know that "somewhere" in the last couple years there was a review on the various aftermarket guards, maybe someone will come up with the reference.
I have no experience with the Woodhaven gauge. I think the Incra 1000SE is a better buy though. Extremely accurate, comes with an extruded T-slot fence and a nice big stop and and extension arm on the fence. It's about the same price, maybe a little more, than the Woodhaven, but worth every penny. I have the 1000 (no SE was available when I bought mine). Shorter fence, very lightweight stop and no extension. But easily worth the $89 I paid for it!
I've been lazy about building an outfeed table. Still using rollers. However, whatever I build, it will have to be hinged for space considerations, or else just lift off like the Rockler support table does. What I envision is a permanent outfeed that goes past the end of the motor, and a hinged support off of that.
Have fun at the show! You realize, of course, that you're expected to provide a full report!forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Bill,
I'm toning down my reply here substantially.
***********************
*** USE THE GUARD ***
***********************
Grounds for instant dismissal and/or a personal USD5000 fine, along with up to USD10000 for the supervisor and USD250000 for the company where I work if you don't, as an aside.
You don't mean to put your hand in the blade, so it's there to stop you from ACCIDENTALLY running your hand or wrist through the saw if you slip or are momentarily distracted. People who think that accidents don't happen or that safety guard are necessary are the ones who usually end up having one.
I've had to wash an industrial slitter out after someone thought that the guard was unnecessary. Lost their arm up to the middle of the bicep.
So, use the guard. It's there to stop an accident. DON"T EVEN ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF LEAVING IT OFF.
eddie
eddie.. thanks.. you honestly convinced me. Thinking about it.. I don't think I would even have asked had I not really wanted to be convinced to get off my lazy duff and use it. A sincere thanks.
bill
Use the guard, use the guard, use the guard. If your saw won't do an operation with the guard in place that's your cue to use another tool - for example dados, rebates, etc. - use a router or a hand tool.
An overarm blade guard is an improvement when your budget allows...
Don't listen to the 'no guard' crowd, no matter what you do.
Also - keep sawdust removed from the floor in front of the saw. I slipped once and only due to God's grace (he gave me fly-catching reflexes) didn't loose my thumb and index finger. I went to an exclusively hand tool operation less than a month later and have not regretted it.
Edited 9/24/2002 7:56:17 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Bill... YOU are not paying attention. The guard is to prevent accidents from happening. Note I did not say 'on purposes from happening'. As the sign on the edge of my table saw says "Do not use remaining fingers as push sticks" Also, if the proverbial 'substance' hits the fan, your health insurance company will give you a rough time. It also makes a very dificult legal argument if the guard was off. It's there, it's free, it may not be the best, but USE IT.
SawdustSteve
I think that this thread illustrates exactly the harm that a show like Norm's can cause. I don't give a rat's a.s.s. that he has been the cause of many workers to take up woodworking. I do care that with people like Bill, who seems uninformed, that an impression was formed that there is even an option about using the guard.
Bill obviously has not had the good fortune to watch a good craftsman who respects (not fears) the machine, operate equipment with good work habits and the pride and confidence of knowing that he is doing everything right.
I don't want to start another Norm thread (actually Bill already has, in a way) but despite all the accolades that he received about being a nice fellow and a positive inspiration, his sloppy, poorly-disciplined and uninformed habits around this dangerous piece of equipment are indefensible.
Norm should PREACH safety and proper technique because fellows such as Bill are watching every episode. Instead he fosters the kind of misinformed outright careless approach that Bill's question indicates. (not you Bill. Norm)
I wonder how many first-time users picture themselves whipping a board through their saw, one handed, past an open blade and hurrying on to the next step, like I have seen on that show? Care, deliberateness and awareness are not attributes of that experience.
"Please pick up severed fingers from saw table before leaving for the hospital."
End of Rant.
Rich
Thanks. I WILL attach and use my blade guard. Funny.. I remarked to several people that Norm stands out among many of his ilk in that he still has all his fingers. So far, right, Rich?
bill
Bill,
Well, there is that!
Rich
Bill, if you are using a long rip fence that, too, might be a possible cause for concern. It's worth investigating what those causes of concern might be. I'm a riving knife, crown guard, and short set rip fence fan, all European style. I never use a saw without the guards, but that's just me and the 9 HP machine I mostly use. Use the smaller type of saw you have carefully. Slainte.
Website
Edited 9/24/2002 11:17:03 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian,
I'm interested in your short rip fence. How long is it?
This entire thread has been extremely enlightening to me. I have not used a guard on my Unisaw for over 12 years nor do I miss it or feel the least bit unsafe during cutting operations. I also use thin kerf rip blades which in my experience minimize and practically eliminate kickback.
However,this thread has made me stop and re think this.I feel like someone who was just pulled over for reckless driving.
I also teach woodworking and cabinet making at our local community college and have an 8 year safety record. Nobody gets hurt on my watch! Last week a student asked me if we always use the guards on the tablesaws when a cut is made. I am sorry to say that at that time I was of the opinion that table saw guards basically just get in the way,even the overhead style the saws at the college are outfitted with.I did say I would be happy to set up the guard for any one who wanted to use it.
Effective immediately, all tablesaws at the college will have crown guards and splitters operational at all times and I will retrain myself to work with these safety features in place.
Thanks to all for your timely recommendation and tuneup. "I'm a (wo)man and I can change, if I have to, I guess."(Red Green)
cheers, silver
Silver, the attached image shows the typical European style of short fence and guard set up for ripping. The Delta Unifence-- is that the right term?- is of basically the same pattern. The fence holds the material firmly against the downward chopping front teeth, but once the material is cut it's free of the fence. This is useful because if the material bows apart after the cut, it bows away from those rear rising teeth. With a long fence, material that bows as described, especially if it bows powerfully, has nowhere to go, and the long fence forces it tight against the blade, and if there is no riving knife or splitter the effect is even pronounced. Now the worker using the saw is in definite kick-back territory. Slainte.Website
Sgian-how do you pronounce that?
Re your attachment:totally radical. That is about the same difference in thinking as japanese thin supersharp razor saw cut on the pull is to western handsaw jam big fat teeth through wood.
Is this available as an aftermarket product?
Is your tablesaw outfitted with large panic stop?
I can't believe how short your fence is,although I definitely grasp the concept. My thin kerf blades really help to mimimize kickback even in reactionary wood.
Have there been any recent discusssions about after market fences?
thanks for opening my eyes to something new
silver
>>Have there been any recent discusssions about after market fences?
Yep: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=7774.1forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the link.
Sadly, the "after market" for splitters and guards is hardly better, and in some cases worse than the original equipment that comes on American saws.
There is not one aftermarket attempt to supply riving knife capability for any make of saw. The available guards are ungainly, near-Rube Goldberg devices. I think they make the saw harder to use, not easier or safer.
There is nothing approaching the effectiveness, simplicity and elegance of European equipment.
The most recent article in FWW on the subject is issue 152, Dec, 2001, "Table Saw Splitters and Blade Covers" by Kelly Mehler. Take a look to see the varieties of questionable design and tortuous solutions. What the heck were they thinking? Then take a look at Felder, MiniMax, Rojek, Laguna, Hammer.
It's like the American saw design engineers learned from the US Auto Industry School of Dashboard and Tail Fin Design where uselessness of design prevails. While Euro makers went to the Mercedes Benz School of Form Follows Function and get-it-right-the-first-time then fine hone it with evolutionary improvement philosophy.
Rich
Rich,
There is a reason that non-eurosaws don't have aftermarket riving knives. The blade on euro saws moves straight up and down so it easy to have the knive move with the blade. Non-euro saws have a blade that pivots making it difficult to do the same. BTW I don't find the Excalibur guard and Biesmeyer splitter combo Rube Goldberg in the least. The DC benefit alone is worth it. The splitter is removed/replaced as easily as dropping in a throat plate and holds it's alignment. The guard does get in the way when ripping less than 1 1/2" but it's easy to get it out of the way. For long crosscuts or full size sheets the whole arm comes off with the turn of one lever. Not as nifty as a Felder or a Martin, but way better than stock. ANY guard is going to get in the way sometime, the trick is making it easy to put it back on.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John,
Thanks. Yes, the guards are worth it for the DC alone, agreed. But I don't think that the slight rotation of the blade raising mechanism should be an impediment to a manufacturer's designing a riving knife assembly. In fact, I think that it is easier to design one than the current method of splitter/guard assemblies that are so common to American saws.
In fact, I am going to do something that I probably would advise against under other circumstances. I'm going to re-engineer a Grizzly contractor saw a little bit. I HATE TO RE-ENGINEER EQUIPMENT!. I took a look at the arbor assembly yesterday and was amazed at how easy it might be to equip the saw with a riving knife/"crown" guard assembly. I'll need to get a little machine shop help as I have no metal working equipment presently. Also, I have no digital camera to photograph the project, and need to borrow one. But this has me intrigued. (Lie down Rich, it'll go away. You have real work to do!).
I'll prolly mock it up in wood, then fabricate it in metal.
Rich
Agreed, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but then again I haven't tried to do it. Keep us posted on your experiment. I here one can still use film to take pictures :)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Film. Yeah, but I don't have no steenkeeng scanner neither.
Figure I'll save whatever I can on a scanner and apply that toward a digital camera. I'm looking at one, gulp, in the $3000-$4000 range.
Rich, unless you really need a $3-4K ecamera, check out the Olympus America website:
(http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_digital.asp)
I have an Olympus Ultrazoom with 10x optical and 2.7 ezoom, and resolution up to 1600x1200. I love it. A $1200 camera but I found it on the web for less than $700. I put in a 128MB card and I can get 90 pics at 1024x768. That particular model is now outdated, but I'm sure they still have an equivelent model.
Lee,
Thanks. I don't want to get far off topic here. My wife and I have a bit of photographic experience. We have had our photo equipment in "mothballs." We've recently moved into our present home and my garage workshop was the first "shop" area to get going. We kinda know what we want and will be buying some gear outside the "prosumer" line. I know about that Olympus camera. It's a very good one. I believe we're going to get a Fujifilm S2 (Nikon body and lenses) or the new Kodak/Nikon just announced at Photokina.
At any rate, it won't be until Christmas. I'll borrow something else in the meantime.
Rich
Well, I'll add my 1.5 cents ....
I "grew up" with a Craftsman 10" contractor's saw .... without a blade guard. Didn't even come with one. Or if it did, it was an option that I didn't think I could afford at the time.
My recent upgrade to a new 10" Unisaw has made me, shall we say, a little nervous. The table on the ol' Craftsman was (seemed to be) half as big as this Delta. Of course, never having used a blade guard in the past, and seeing what an ungainly thing it was when attached to the Unisaw, I left it off. Only to discover pushing a rip piece through the blade requires quite a bit more 'reach' than the other, smaller table did. Not a nice feeling to have the better part of your upper body leaning over that spinning disk with 20-30 or more pieces of razor sharp carbide spinning at close to the speed of sound. Understand that I'm somewhat vertically challenged.
What this is getting at is, yes, when I get back to the shop, the blade guard will go back on. And the next non-woodworking project will be to design and build (from wealth of 'raw materials', an overhead paralellogram system as has been illustrated in another message. Thanks to everyone for helping to open my eyes. Ungainly or not, inconvenient or not, I can see the wisdom of using every safety feature available.Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
When I "graduated" from a Craftsman 9" RAS to a 10" table saw, I was, as you put it, "a little nervous." Somehow that blade spinning, unprotected in the middle of that gleaming steel table was much more frightening than the RAS with its friendly wood table and fence. The saw had its guard attached and I welcomed its presence. The first time I had to make a cut with the guard off, it took me quite a while to convince myself that I could do it! I even found myself having trepidation about raising the blade into cutting position. I think I dreaded the teeth coming off, and flying right at me or the blade simply exploding! I still cannot comfortably position myself directly in front of the blade when it's running if the guard is off.
Rich
Rich,
I said this elsewhere and I'll say it again: you should NEVER stand in the line of fire behind any cutter. You should stand off to one side - for most of us, that's to the left of the tablesaw blade.
In thirty years, I've seen some accidents that could easily have been avoided. Some were nearly fatal, some left victims maimed, and some craftsmen luckily walked away with only minor injuries. I, for one, learned the lesson the hard way and have a scar over my eye to remind me. That happened when I was only a year into my trade, and I was lucky that it knocked some sense into my noggin.
Gary,
Noooooooo argument.
Sometimes I find myself lining up my line of sight with the spinning blade so that I can judge where it's going to enter the wood. Gotta stop that.
BTW, about once a month I fly from Maui to Molokai. The planes on that route are Dash 8 turbo props. Great planes. But every once in a while I have to sit in the seat row right in line with those huge spinning props. The inboard engine is RIGHT outside the window. I spend the whole flight telling myself to stop thinking about it. Gives me the shudders right now, telling it.
Rich
OT but the ATR-66 has kevlar bands on the outside of the fuselage for just that reason. Can't remember if the dash-8 had any protection against that or not.
I am having a house made. Watching the finish carpenters is rather scary. These guys have a Makita contractors saw with no guards, splittlers, etc. They free hand rout everything- horizontal, vertical- you name it. Watching the framers was interesting- guys were cross cutting 2x4's they had put on their thighs with circular saws with no guards. There wasn't one saftey harness visible on the job.
I just kept my mouth shut as it is the contractor's job to police his men, but holy cow! I'm glad no one has been hurt so far.
Frank
Frank-
Give them time. The emergency rooms, I think, have a special area just for people who wired up or removed the blade guard on their circular saws. I saw two with tightly bound cloths on the wound waiting in my local emergency room a couple of years ago--one in the thigh, and the other in the foot.
Frank,
You probably cannot get them to change their behavior. But you should be VERY concerned. You could be found to be liable for any injuries that they suffer. Even if you successfully defend yourself, the cost could be high to do so.
You should insist that anyone who works for you adhere to strict codes regarding operation of tools, etc. You are NOT indemnified by the contractor. You are NOT insulated from liability because he hired those guys. Won't you be surprised to find that he has no insurance? Who do you think the lawyers go after? The deepest pockets. In your case, the homeowner.
And won't you be amazed to be confronted by an attorney who investigates you, discovers your lifestyle and is able to show that it was YOU who was neglegent, having knowledge of such practices and taking no action?!!! They are VERY good at that kind of thing.
A friend of mine was successfully sued when a plasterer whom he hired fell from his 12" "stilts" and broke his ankle. It was a freaking nightmare. He had to reimburse the worker's compensation board, the state (CA), the plasterer. His home liability coverage did not apply because the plasterer violated rules which forbade using stilts - they have to use a platform. He was not fined or anything, but his "employer" was for "allowing" the rules "violation.
The law is wierd! Take control of that situation. Those guys are on your property, working for YOU.
Rich
You could be found to be liable for any injuries that they suffer. Even if you successfully defend yourself, the cost could be high to do so.
I'm really glad you posted this, Rich. I was a bit concerned for Frank as well and added my comments. Any more a person doesn't seem to have a chance against the legal system. The simple approach is; no certificate of indemnity/additional insured owner, no contract/no work.
Some small remodeling contractors may think you're going overboard, but there are other contractors out there if they don't want to comply.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Totally off topic, Frank, but this is one place where I *do* have some experience:
In our state, (WA) an employee cannot sue his/her employer if hurt on the job. But in the case of construction, he/she *can* sue the owner. Meaning - if one of these workers gets seriously hurt, depending on how the L&I laws read in your state, you could have quite a bit of exposure. Any contract I write for work for me, personally, requires the contractor to provide an additionally insured rider on their insurance certificate and a hold harmless/endimnity clause.
Don't just close your eyes or turn away. Say something and have it on record at the very least. Chances are nothing will happen. But if it does, best to at least have something on record that you made your concerns known.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Guys who don't take the time to set up a saw station with a 'cut man' usually do ####* work. I don't want a guy cutting my rafters using his foot as a sawhorse - lousy fit will probably be the result.
Aside from the potential liability pointed out by other posts, you ought to insist on better framing subs.
You may think that a guy who can cut to a line with a board propped on his thigh is a real carpenter, but he really is far from it.
Gary, Sgian and everyone.
All this stuff below applies to a tablesaw whose fence is to the operator's right of the blade.
Usually the experienced guys and gals around "Knots" make comments and suggestions that make good sense to me.
The comment just below puzzles me; it seems internally contradictory.
Gary Weisenburger said,
I said this elsewhere and I'll say it again: you should NEVER stand in the line of fire behind any cutter. You should stand off to one side - for most of us, that's to the left of the tablesaw blade.
Perhaps my failure to understand it is related to the differences in Switch location between various tablesaws?
The ON/OFF switch on my old Rockwell Unisaw is located beneath the level of the table and a bit to the right of the projected line of the plane of the saw blade.
If I stand to the left of the projected line of the blade, I must reach ACROSS the path of the blade to activate the motor/turn the saw ON.
To kill the motor after a cut, I have to reach ACROSS the path of the blade while it's spinning at max. speed to shut the saw down.
Since I have a "Kill" Switch kneeboard mounted over the Switch which activates or turns off the motor, I often use a "Slap Stick" to pop the Kill Switch's board to shut the motor off. This prevents having to reach across the path of the blade with my hand. The Slap Stick reaches across the path of the blade and taps the Kill Switch board.
If one stands to the left of the blade and is ripping narrow stock, where does he choose to put his hand or his push stick?
Maybe other tablesaws have their ON/OFF switch mounted to the operator's left of the blade?
My weak understanding of where a kickback usually throws the work is to the operator's right of the blade. If that is true, then standing to the left is otherwise THE place to stand.
On the other hand, if the operator stands to the right of the blade, the ON/OFF switch is readily accessible without standing in the path of the blade, BUT, that's where a kickback is most likely going to be thrown, no?
Please straighten me out on all this.
Thanks
William
I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
Well, from blade guards to kickback, here we go. . .
My ON/OFF switch is also to the right side, which somehow suggests to me that the manufacturer knew which side I should be standing on; in any event, for me, standing on the left for ripping is just plain "wrong" (or unwise, whatever); workpieces pinched between the blade and fence are going to rotate and be tossed by the blade back and slightly to the left of center, according to everything I've read and seen (NB: I've never had a real kickback myself, but check out the photos at the link below). If you stand toward the right, the fence itself acts as a kind of wall that tends to direct the kickback toward the left. In addition, I use my push shoe between the blade and fence; if I stood to the left of the blade, I'd have to reach over the blade to hold my push shoe, not something I want to attempt even in my dreams.
Our own hosts here have a fine photo display of how kickback occurs and IMO, it graphically demonstrates why you should stand to the right side of the blade.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
My experience has been that when kickback occurs it is unpredictable as to its direction. I've been hit from just about every angle depending on what I'm doing. The worst one was a piece of wood caught between the guard and the blade waiting to launch. I pulled the plug from the wall on that one. The guard is what kept if from launching if that says anything for guards. I use my guard whenever possible but sometimes I'm forced to work without it. When those time occur, I throw in an extra pinch of caution. Yes, I have all eight digits and a couple of thumbs to boot. That could change at any moment so right now I'm looking for some wood to knock on.
I think the most important thing is that we remember what type of machinery we're working with. Take every precaution you can to save yourself from injury but remember that common sense and belief in God will be what saves your butt more often than not.
William, as I understand it you stand to the right of the saw blade and your left hand is the primary motive force during ripping. This is a naturally 'weak' stance, but it's your preference. The truth is, that whatever stance you take, then by the time you actually experience a kickback, it really doesn't matter where the on/off switch is located, because it's too late to worry about. The switch could be in the next street for all it matters at that point. What you seem to be asking about is what to do in the event that you 'feel' a kickback coming on. It's not actually there yet, but all the signs are bad. The left handed stance is weak, but handy for hitting the off switch. The right handed stance is strong, but you have to reach across the line of fire to switch the machine off. But you just admitted that you have a hand held paddle that you use to hit the big kill switch in emergencies which suggests that you are only using one hand to push the timber with--- a less than preferred methodology. Kickbacks can go anywhere from left to right, but of course they're generally backwards. personally, I've always preached the 'to the left' of the blade approach as 90% of the population are right handed and this is the natural stance. I'm no electrician-- the stuff drips out of the ceiling as far as I'm concerned-- but it shouldn't be too hard to run some additional wires and a box to provide at least an emergency off switch to the left side of the machine if this would help.
Standing to the left and ripping, the right hand is at the end of the stock, the left hand forces the piece against the fence until you get within about 14" or so of the blade, at which point the push stick or sticks complete the cut. Slainte, RJ.Website
What's wrong with this idea?
About 20 years ago I bought a used Delta lathe.
It had a switch on it to turn the motor off and on. Natch----- right?
When turning spindles, I moved laterally from the headstock to the tailstock, shifting the tool rest base and tool rest to the left or to the right laterally so's it would be where I wanted to run my cuts.
But as my cut moved away from the switch on 36" long spindles, it would become a minor nuisance to hit the switch when I was removed from it some distance.
I rigged a stick about 3 or 4 feet long and located in the same horizontal plane above the floor as was the ON/OFF switch, and fixed it to the frame of the lathe. There was a hole in the stick which straddled the forward projecting toggle of the switch. So, wherever I was along the lathe's ways, I could just push/pull the stick to turn the motor of the lathe on or off.
So why can't we rig the ON/OFF switch of the tablesaw so that instead of being vertically oriented, it is horizontally oriented?
Then some similar stick or metal or whatever it takes can be rigged up, attached to the frame of the table saw, so that wherever we are standing, we can directly and readily hit the switch. A horizontal Kill Switch, if you please.
Not so much for preventing kickbacks but just to make access to the switch more convenient regardless of our position as the operator of the machine?
Is there a law of Physics, or some OSHA Rule, or perhaps a Divine Ruling, which says that the ON/OFF switch of a tablesaw has to be in one fixed location on the frame of the tablesaw?
Shoot this down.
William, the Admitted Amateur.
I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
William,
No, the switch doesn't have to be permanently attached. On my Felder, for instance, i've what's become known as a "remote pendant switch," designed by another Felder user. Mine is suspended to the sliding table. It can be moved along a track in the table or completely removed. The switch's low voltage wiring is coiled, like a telephone wire, and doesn't tangle. It's great, because when I put a sheet of plywood in the slider, the switch is right next to my right hand. When I'm crosscutting narrower pieces, I can move the switch so it remains equally accessible.
I might add that the Felder has an electronic brake, another fine safety addition.
If you like, I'll try to locate the resources for the pendant switch.
Gary
William,
Like you, I installed a 6" x 10" Lexan "kneeboard" over the switch on my 1983 Unisaw. It had a hole, through which I poked the on button and a bolt, which activated the off switch when I lightly touched, kicked, or even threw something at the kneeboard. A woodshop schoolteacher from Groton, CT suggested it to me when he worked in my boatbuilding shop one summer. Since I didn't like its position so far out of reach, I moved it to the far left and attached it to the angle iron that supports the Biesmeyer guide bar. Sorry, but American made machines don't yet have a clue about switch placement or guards!
Standing to the left of the blade I have the best control when ripping heavy pieces and wide panels, because I can push the piece both toward the fence and through the the saw blade I have control of the workpiece as well as the off-cut.
I think all beginning woodworkers, as well as less experienced journeymen, need direct instruction on TS safety, or at least a video of the process. In 30 years, I've taught probably 50 of my own helpers how to use the tablesaw, and they all have ten fingers and none have been hit with a kickback. We can all stand to learn and relearn about safety. As you read earlier in this thread, I finally learned, from Sgian (Richard), to use the Euro guard and splitter on my saw.
As to ripping narrow stock: yes I do reach across the blade to feed stock, however I feel quite safe. That's because I set the blade's teeth less than a half inch above the workpiece, and I long ago developed a habit of hooking a finger of my right hand over the rip fence blade to "register" the position of my hand in relation to the saw blade. I feel even safer now, because I've always got the Euro guard in place. I use a push stick when ripping pieces narrower than 1.5" wide. HOWEVER, I know from experience that's not safe: a kicked back piece once nearly bent my thumb back to my wrist.
I'd NEVER stand directly behind the blade, and I couldn't have control of the workpiece or its off-cut were I to stand to the right of the fence.
KICKBACK, which can injure you as much as the blade, occurs in line with the blade, not to the left or right.A shopmate was walking 30 feet away when a kickback occured, and the piece of wood completely shattered his knee as he came directly in line with the saw blade. The blade is like the barrel of a gun, and when the kicked back projectile comes off the blade it travels in a straight line. Long projectiles can travel parallel to the ground, and short ones can be launched upward, toward the face of the user. If it happens, you likely won't be hit if you're well off to one side, but I wouldn't trust even a flack vest, helmet and face shield if I were standing behind the saw blade. Sure, everyone says the riving knife and Euro guard will prevent kickback, but I'll need another 30 years to prove that to myself. Even then, my habit will prevent me from standing where I shouldn't. I happen to trust my good habits. Do the math: a kicked back projectile can travel at over 200-mph when launched from my 5400-rpm, 13"-diameter rip blade. DON'T STAND IN THE WAY, even though your 10" Unisaw might send a piece flying at only 100-mph!
Gary
Edited 9/28/2002 2:59:43 PM ET by Gary Weisenburger
Edited 9/28/2002 3:11:23 PM ET by Gary Weisenburger
A video showing proper use of the saw. The advantages of a eurosaw, etc.
Taunton, are you paying attention?
Rich
Here's another old saw I'd like everyone to come forward and enlighten me about.
If you've read early editions of Delta's "Getting the Most Out Of Your---------------"
you'll be familiar with the fact that long ago Delta advised the operator to walk around to the rear of the tablesaw and pull the relatively long piece of stock being ripped on through the blade.
Is this still recommended advice?
Any hazard in such operation?
Thanks
Willliam, I still do it.
I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
So, who's tending to the piece whilst you're on your stroll? Or maybe you're running?
I heard that advice, tried it a few times many years ago, but never felt at all comfortable.
On the other hand, having a helper on the outfeed side is good, so long as that person doesn't try to control the piece. I think that only the person on the infeed side should have control.
Gary
William,
I don't know if I should admit it, but I've done that on many occasions. I've alwys wondered about its advisability, that maybe my technique is wrong. But I've found myself, when unable to comfortably push the remainder of a long board through, hold the board in place and kind of pivot around the saw and pull the piece through. It's a little unnerving because it probably means that I have not properly controlled the board, and I'm worrying if something disastrous is going to happen as I shift position.
Nothing ever has..
Rich
Edited 9/28/2002 10:34:08 PM ET by Rich Rose
Rich,
You have to think about others', besides your own safety - like the guy who lost his knee while walking 30 feet away from the saw. You may not be putting yourself in harms way, but you may unknowingly be putting others at risk.
Gary
Gary,
Are you saying the techique IS risky? Aside from your wondering how the operator gets from the front to the back of the saw, I'm really not sure about your opinion on this.
If you couldn't tell, in my last message I was wondering if it were. I do not knowingly put others in harm's way. I never let anyone stand in line of a cutting tool.
Do you have an opinion about pulling a board through the blade? I'd be glad to listen to it. I'm pretty much safety-oriented about these kinds of things, if you haven't been able to tell.
That last post sounded pretty judgemental.
Rich
regarding pulling wood through:
I admit that I have done this, but only when I've been the assistant....the guy who's job it is to tail the piece. I didn't like doing it. I always felt out of control and I was very concerned that I'd slip up and my partner would get the kicked back stock in HIS chops. I would never do this operation by myself on the tablesaw. Rich..you said that it has made you uneasy to do this. One of the primary lessons I took away from an early FWW article on safety was: if you think something is wrong then it probably is....most accidents have happened when the operator has had a "feeling" that something is going astray. I think of that article and my own experiences all the time when I'm working on the saw.
Working with an assistant on the tablesaw usually gives me the creeps. I have often waved away well meaning helpers who advance to "help me." I want to control the stock by myself. If I can't then I shouldn't be cutting it. I should find another way.
Hey guys,
I'm not advocating the practice. My admission of discomfort with it is already posted. Everytime I did it I thought I was doing something wrong, but there I was in the middle of a cut. OK, I should have hit the off button.
But what IS the danger of pulling? Someone who wrote the Delta manual thought it was ok.
Rich
Rich, the danger of pulling is that the sawyer may still be pushing. A dumb 'puller' can pull the sawyers hands into the saw blade. The sawyer should always be the master, and the puller the servant, just like the guy at the bottom of the pit never guided the saw in pit sawing jobs. His job was to just pull and get covered in sawdust. The master at the sunny dust free end did all the steering to produce slabs of timber, and, er he got paid the most too, because he was the guy with the brains, ha, ha. Slainte. Website
>>But what IS the danger of pulling? Someone who wrote the Delta manual thought it was ok. Not to be verbose about this, Rich, but in addition to Sgian's reasons (pulling the operator's hands), the WWA accident survey I linked in an earlier message (and above) has several reports that demonstrate why it's dangerous to the puller; basically, if the wood starts to pinch or kick back, you can't let go fast enough, and if the puller's hands are close enough, they'll be pulled back into the blade. Even more fundamentally, it seems to me that moving around to the back is virtually certain to interrupt your (or it sure would mine) concentration on the precise line and pressure of feed against the rip fence, increasing the chance that wood may twist and potentially kick back.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Richard & Norm,
Thanks.
Norm, it had never occured to me that one could be pulled back into the blade. I shall never do that again.
Richard, I never committed this transgression with a helper available. I was always the only one at the saw. If I had had a helper, he would have been behind the saw to prevent my foolish contortions.
Rich
Rich
I have in the past pulled a piece through also. I work alone and did it for what I considered then necessity. I feel in control of a Japanese pull saw. I did not feel that same control with pulling a work-piece on a rip. It was difficult to keep the stock against the fence in front of the blade and I just felt out of control. It just did not feel natural.
I am not production shop as you know so I try to size my stock slightly over-size b-4 I rip. I feel perfectly comfortable ripping up to about 6' as I use adjustable rollers behind the saw and have an out-feed. I have a set-up with the work bench and assembly table behind my saw at the same table height that I can rip up to 14' by myself if necessary. I open my garage door and set up several adjustable roller stands spaced evenly the length I need to rip in these rare occassions. After I pass about 3 or4 feet through the blade, I shut the saw down with a knee kill-switch without taking my grip off the work-piece. Let the blade come to a complete stop and keep one hand on the work-piece. I use the free right hand to grab a quik-clamp I have hung on the right portion of rail. I clamp the workpiece in the exact position as when the blade stopped rotating and walk to the back of saw. I insert a small wooden wedge to keep the kerf open.
Back to the front of saw and release clamp and start saw. Move another 3 or 4 feet through and repeat procedure until I have cleared the entire lenght of work-piece. The amount I move through is based on what I see and feel the kerf doing beyond the riving knife. When I observe the kerf starting to close, time to kill the saw and repeat.
Not going to keep an assembly line running by this method, but it works for my needs as I've got no where to go and plenty of time to get there. I feel I have control of the rip using this method. Much more than the few times when I pulled it through. I use a spring-board to the left attached to the slider and a small feather-board for vertical hold-down on the fence. A riving knife is in use always. BTW, as of today I now use a short fence attached to the face of my long fence. I will have a crown gaurd on the saw in a week or so when I finish making it.
Rich, I can't answer your question with expertise as some here that are more experienced. As I have respect for your opinion from your post, ask your-self these two questions: (1) Do you feel your in control of the saw when you pull? (2) Do you have a better alternative? I think your opinion will answer your own question. I have respect for your opinion!!
sarge..jt
Ah, Sarge, you've just mentioned another thing that bothers me. People wax lyrical about the benefits of an offcut table that includes rollers or ball bearing type roller deals. These might be useful if it wasn't for the general users penchant in the US for using a saw without guards. Those rollers and ball bearing things are fantastic after the cut as long as the just cut material keeps rolling away from the saw. However, should it be that a piece decides to roll back freely into the back of the blade (unguarded of course) then now you have the perfect missile launching device. It's those back rising rear teeth again. For all those lovers and proponents of these 'after the cut' aids from the likes of Rockler, Woodshop Supplies, et al, think carefully if you use unguarded saw blades with these laughably dumb 'safety' devices. A plain friction afflicted off-cut table is generally safer. Slainte.Website
Sgian is correct. Roller and bearing outfeed tables are useless for the task intended, and they can't be used for anything else. Rollers are especially dangerous, because unless perfectly aligned, they tend to steer the workpiece in the wrong direction.
I''ve got two waxed, Formica topped tables on wheels, each at tablesaw height. One rolls in place on the infeed side and one on the outfeed side. When I'm using the slider to crosscut the end off a 4x8 or 4x10 panel, one table can be set up to support the end that hangs beyond the extension table on my slider. When not being used at the tablesaw, they double as useful assembly tables, and their waxed surface makes glue removal a snap, using a sharpened, 6" sheetrock taper's knife to scrape of the dried stuff.
Gary
Slainte
You have made a good point that should be thought about for any of us that use the rear roller system. In my case I do always use the riving knife. Also, the only time I deal with lengthy work-pieces like I mentioned it is usually for uses on the house. I pre-cut my furniture projects to just over-size to eliminate un-neccessary length when I go to the saw or other tools. It's rare for me to have to rip anything over 5' for furniture.
Now, in my case I built a rear out-feed 14" deep behind the saw and slider. It is friction. This is usually enough for up to 5' without any type of assist. Also, I am not production. I have a dedicated 900 sq. ft. garage shop to work in. I planned it so I have the maximum use of every inch. I do have the luxury of having another 900 sq ft in my 1/2 basement behind where the wood racks and low-boy assembly table, etc.are. Most don't have the luxury of the plentiful space as a production shop. We don't have the room to put a large friction table behind. I can open my garage door and go out though. I have a work-bench and assembly table the same table height as my saw for support on the front side of the saw directly in front of it. ( I put these there in my design on purpose ). When, in the rare occasion I have to rip lengthy construction stock, I have adjustable height single rollers I space evenly behind the saw every 2' or so. I take the stock through a dry run and set the 1st roller to the same height as the saw table. The next roller is dropped 1/16" below the stock. All rollers after that are dropped 1/8" to the end of the run. Gravity!! The long lenghts of 3/4" or 4/4 will start to sag down after about 8' or so. The stock is now going down-hill approximately 2*. Not likely to come back to the saw unless it can defy gravity. Keep in mind if you read the other post, I am always in front of the saw when it is running. I have 2 hands on the stock as I would on a short piece of stock. I have control!! In order for the stock to come back to the rear rising teeth in this case is it will not only have to defy gravity, it will have to defy a tough little 160 lb hombre on the other end of the saw moving the stock forward and in control of the cut. This same hombre always has his knees bent slightly and a solid stance with weight that is ever-so slightly forward. ( remember that rugby stance ). So far I have never been defied. Ha..
If I ever rip 4 x 8 sheets of ply (which I usually cut down with a circular saw in advance) I do not use the rollers. I have adjustable height saw horses I use behind the saw. Add a birch ply-wood top between the two horses and clamp it down to the horse. Set the height to same as saw and ready to rip..Again, friction for the large width stuff. I work alone, so I have to work smart to avoid injury and avoid loss of expensive stock due to stupid set-ups. As I said, I have no where to go and plenty of time to get there. I take my time and try to think of all the pit-falls b-4 I give myself the green-light to Go.. Cause if I don't, I know from experience that when you get the green and hit the door a running it's too late to make that equipment check and be sure that parachute was packed properly!! So far, so good.....
If you see any problems with either the set-up for the long rip or the full panel rip, I'm all ears. If I have mis-calculated any step or you can think of a better way considering the space I have available and I work alone, I want to know.. If there is a better way, I will change it as you have already found out. Love that short fence, it got the Green Light!! Are you listening TP?
You're right on the slow pace of the Cricket. They started the game one sunny Australian after-noon and at dark went home to come back to continue the next day. Ha..Ha.. BTW, are you from Scotland? The wee and the barb about English origin of cricket is a tip. I have a lot of Scottish friends here in Atlanta. They have a Scottish Games every year at a state park here and at Highlands, N.C. Love the pipes. Have several CD's I play in the shop when the mood for the pipes strike. Scotland the Brave and Meeting of the Waters. Haven't done it in 25 years but makes me want to tip the glass..
sarge..jt
It sounds like you've thought through the potential dangers there Sarge and you take good steps to reduce the chances of accidents occuring-- your splitter being in place in conjunction with the rollers should in most cases prevent any roll back coming into contact the rear rising teeth of the blade. My one area of concern is with the rollers dropping away, which in itself is a good solution causing the cut pieces to keep rolling away after the cut: but if your piece happens to very long there might be a tendency for it to pivot at some point prior to completing the cut which would raise the trailing edge off the saw table. This would concern me a little. Your sheet goods handling strategies seem sound. What do you catch the sawn parts with at the outfeed end? Slainte.Website
Slainte
On one of the adjustable height rollers I made a bracket from 1" wide 3/8" steel bar. I had my BIL form it so at the bottom it is straight for 12". Then it angles 30* for 8" and then turns back up the same direction as the the first 12". I welded the 12" straight portion to the base and the rest of the bracket shoots up about 6" behind the roller and taller than the roller top. Took a piece of 16" wide oak board and drilled (3) 1/4" holes through the board 8" center-line to correspond with 3 holes drilled in the 1" wide steel bar. Attach the board horizonally to the bar with (3) 1/4" carriage bolts and a T-knob on back side so I can dis-mantle quickly to save space.
I see your concern with any possible pivot from the rear. Keep in mind I have the fence to the right as a guide and have attached a 14" spring-board to the slot in slider on the left of blade. It is difficult for the board to pivot as it is not only sitting between two slides, I am always to the rear of the saw guiding when the blade is spinning.
I'm glad you brought it up, though. I have never had it happen, but it could if conditions were right. Hmmm.........
A cup of coffee latter and some deep though! When I make the dry run with the blade below table I will clamp a 2" wide piece of stock to the rear edge of the built on rear out-feed table. One on each side of the stock work-piece. With the dry run I know exactly where that stock will exit off the end of that out-feed table. Place a piece of guide stock on each side with maybe 1/8" clearance on each side between the edge of the work-piece and the edge of the guide stock. Once the work-piece has cleared the front chopping teeth those guide pieces would still be engaged if any pivot occurs from the rear. I always use my knee and engage the kill-switch as soon as the cut is complete. Wait till the blade stops rotating b-4 I carefully romove the work-piece. Up until that point I still have the push sticks engaged for support also.
As I said, I have never had a problem so far. But I don't rip long stock like this often. The rear guides might be an added insurance policy. A hedge just in case the long odds of the pivot finally catch up with you. What do you think of this idea and do you think 1/8" clearance on each side is enough, or too much? Just thoughts. B-4 it gets a green light, it's going through all the preliminary checks. You can count on that!
sarge..jt
Slainte
Just read your post again. In case the rear trailing edge of the work-piece catch the rising teeth causing it to lift up. I missed that as is late. If you're ripping say, 3/4" stock I make the rear guides 4/4. B-4 I clamp them down add a piece of stock across the top from one guide to the other and then clamp them down. Now you have side guides to help eliminate pivot and a bridge above to keep the work-piece from lifting if the rear rising teeth did engage.
This is why I do heavy thinking in the morning when my mind is rested. Ha.. Going to get some sleep and read this again in the morning to see if it seems as logical as it does at this hour.
sarge..jt
The ball rollers work great. I just got a roller stand (rockler) that has both ball rollers and a single roller. The single roller steers the the stock but the ball roller does not. I'm making trim for my house and there is no way I could rip 10'- 5/4 birch by myself with out the roller stand. It also works great for 8' sheet goods (I use my circle saw to rip the sheet in half since a I can only control (lift) 2' wide piece of 3/4 MDF). I also have walked behind the saw and pulled stock through but I use feather boards at the edge and on top. No problems yet and I always keep the guard on for ripping. With out all of my fingers I could'nt count to ten (or twenty if I use my toes).
But what IS the danger of pulling?
From the 'sounds' of the replies, Rich, it seems the danger lies in having two people working the piece. In my case, without a decent outfeed table (only a portable roller support that I always use if the piece is so long that it needs support on the outfeed side), I often got (with my older, smaller saw) in the situation where it was definitely uncomfortable pusing a long thin rip through the entire cut. Getting it a little over half way, I'd end up having to move around to the back of the machine and finish the cut by pulling it through. I generally always had feather boards holding the piece against the fence and clamped on the fence holding it down against the table. That way I didn't feel too uncomfortable letting loose of the workpiece to change position. I'm really eager to get a decent setup for outfeed, though.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
Your description of walking around to the back of the saw to finish a rip is exactly what I described. This is probably a very common practice on small saws in garage workshops every day.
As I posted before, I have done it for the last time.
Rich
Rich
And that's why I said I respect your opinion. Yep, probaly all of us in a small shop have done it from necessity. We could probaly form a support group for all those that are still doing it and would like to quit. Ha.... Have a good day, need to get to the shop.
sarge..jt
Hi Rich -
Just to set the record straight, I would *never* let go of the board to walk to the other side of the saw unless it was well feathered as I mentioned. Still not the best idea, I agree. But in a pinch one sometimes has to do what one has to do.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
An intelligent and knowledgable helper can be a boon during ripping operations. The helper stands at the outfeed end with a hammer and some wedges to hand, and a good attitude. The helper watches, never rushes, and never initiates any move, and watches carefully to see what's going on. At the slightest sign of pinching, especially on thick stock, he/she hammers a wedge into the kerf, and continues to do so as the piece emerges beyond the riving knife. The helper never pulls the timber through unless the sawyer indicates via a pre- agreed sign that he/she should do so, but merely supports it as the stuff emerges. The helper removes the cut pieces and places them at the agreed spot in the same orientation that the pieces came off the saw, every time. Being a helper can be a bit boring and tedious, but a good helper can more than double the speed of a big sawing job. The same applies for the doofus at the end of the surface planer, thickness planer, spindle moulder, etc.. A good intelligent helper is worth his/her weight in gold. A dipsh-it helper is nothing but a pain in the arse and a potential accident waiting to happen. Slainte.Website
Pulling wood through from the outfeed side:
Rich, that's another something I don't think I'd ever attempt. I've read more than one report about people who've pulled wood through (or who had helpers on the outfeed side pulling the wood through) when the wood kicked back and pulled a hand with them. Here's one:
"This happened to a co-worker. He was ripping a piece of stock by himself and did not have a push stick handy. There was also no guard on the saw. He pushed the stock half way through then reached around the back of the saw to pull it through. In doing so he squeezed the stock together causing friction on the blade. The stock kicked back through the saw and took his fingers with it. Four of his fingers were cut off. The doctors reattached them and he is working in a different industry now (ironically drafting)."
Woodworkers Central WWA Accident Survey Reports
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Silver, it doesn't seem radical to me. It's what I've been using since the beginning, and that's now over 25 years. Doubtful if that kind of set up is available as an aftermarket item, except maybe the Delta Unifence might fit other saws than Delta's. The set up is standard on the European imports, e.g., Felder, Rojek, Laguna, etc., but they do cost a bit too, ha, ha. No large panic stop on my machine, but I do have a couple of mushroom type 'off' buttons that are hard to miss with a hand or knee. Don't worry about how to pronounce it. It's a fake name anyway. Slainte.Website
Sgian,
We touched (no pun intended) on blade guards about a month ago, and your encouragement is paying off. After over 30 years of professional woodworking without using guards or riving knives, I now can't find but one setup, on my Felder, where I don't use the knife and so called Euro (head) guard. I crosscut with the slider and rip with the fence using the guard. When ripping, I usually withdraw the fence blade so its end is about an inch short of the trailing edge of the blade's teeth. However, I extend the fence blade a few inches beyond the saw blade when ripping wide (like 20") pieces, because of the diagonal force needed to keep the workpiece edge against the fence.
The only time I don't use the guard is when making cuts where the blade doesn't come through the workpiece. With that setup, I use my stockfeeder, which is better than pushsticks and guard, but I still leave the knife in place, since it's top is below the top of the blade. When ripping more than a few pieces to under 10" wide, I use the feeder, ripping wider than that I use the Euro guard - ALWAYS. I just a year ago began using the feeder for ripping, and discovered what fine, consistent cuts it produces at such great speed and accuracy. And I thought it was just for the shaper - duh.
I've got to thank you, Richard.
Gary
"I just a year ago began using the feeder for ripping, and discovered what fine, consistent cuts it produces at such great speed and accuracy."
This sentence in your post really captured my interest. Would you mind explaining to a newbie what a "feeder" is? Thanks..
Bill
Gary, If something I've said to a fellow long experienced, respected and reputable woodworker such as yourself has encouraged you-- or anyone else for that matter-- to experiment with a new (to you)and different table saw routine and, even better from my point of view, you do feel safer, and you actually are safer because of those changes, then I'll be happy for a long time. Feedback like yours makes my day, and makes me feel it's worth my while wasting my time on forums such as this. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. Go and have a long distance clinking of beer glasses with me later. I'll have one or five beers after rugby training in a couple of hours.
Bill, regarding your question on feeders, these are power feeders that Gary refered to. They really are the safest way to feed timber particularly with table saws or spindle moulders (shapers.) They are electric powered tools that look a bit like a giant hand held belt sander with, on the smaller machines 3 rubber or neoprene rollers, and on the large machines, five or so rollers. They're mounted on an adjustable arm on the saw/ moulder/machine and can be adjusted to feed the material through the cut at a consistent speed. They also add to the safety level because it's seldom-- but not impossible- that you'll experience a kickback when these tools are in use. They come into their own for large runs, being a bit fiddly to set up for a one off cut or two. For the part time worker, it's quite unlikely that one is worth purchasing. Slainte. Website
Richard,
Besides adding to my safety, the Euro guard is one of the simplest to setup and use over-blade dust hoods. One collector pickup gets dust from below the blade, and another collects it from above, so cleanup is really a snap. I wish I could collect dust from above the blade when using the power feeder. Hmmm, I think I know how I might make that work.
Yeah, sometimes it takes a lot to get this old coot to change his ways, especially those that go back so many years. Its funny, but when I set up the Felder, I didn't even think of installing the Euro guard, and just tossed it into the store room. I think that was because of all the hassles I'd experienced with lesser guards, like those on my Powermatic and Unisaw.
Is there any amber ale in the house? This round's on me, thanks.
Gary
Thank you for the "power feeder" explanation. I don't want one, now that I know what it is. The biggest kick I get out of this is pushing the work through the blade. Am I weird?
Bill
>>"...biggest kick.." -- Pun intended? LOL! Be careful now, y'hear?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey, good catch! Oops.. another unintended pun.
I was waiting for you tos how up in this thread, Richard. Thank you; come in and have a seat, please. I'll uncork a couple.
Tho' I habitually, routinely and respectfully use the blade guard with my Delta Unisaw, and its splitter/pawls device, and a featherboard at the front of the blade, stand out of the path of the blade, use push sticks regularly, have a shop-made knee-level "kill" switch in place, sometimes wear eye protection other than my plastic spectacles depending upon how big I perceive a threat to be in a given circumstance, etc., I still haven't completely absorbed everything you have tried to teach us about the riving knife.
Truth is, I have never even seen a riving knife being used. No surprise to you as you must have quickly realized when you came across the Atlantic to our shores. If one saw these things in use it'd be a lot easier to understand, methinks.
Further, I've never seen a short fence such as you have previously described in use in the USA.
So would you mind reiterating your position and reasoning re the riving knife and the short fence?
Is the short fence the one you use for BOTH ripping and cross cutting? (I don't have a radial arm saw nor a chop saw, just the conventional "cut off box" whose runners slide in the miter ga. grooves in the table's top)
Please summarize the pro's and cons of the short fence again?
Is the riving knife attached to the work arbor of the saw so that when I change blade height, the riving knife automatically goes along with the height change?
Is there a really good AFTER MARKET riving knife which can be attached to American cabinet saws? Who makes and who sells? How much of a machining job is involved?
Who makes the short fence? Please don't tell me to cut off my existing fence. (An Excalibur). Easy to fit to American cabinet saws? Expensive?
If you don't feel up to tackling all this again, and if you have it all stored somewhere on your machine, howzabout forwarding it to me when convenient for you? I feel sure there's enough new guys around now that it won't fall upon deaf ears.
With appreciation,
William------Florida
I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
I didn't care much for the stock guard/splitter on my Jet cabinet saw or the Craftsman I had before it. But wanting to turn over a new leaf and keep all my fingers led me down the path to a safer saw. I went with the Excaliber overarm guard and the Biesmeyer splitter. Happy with both, except for the anti-kickback pawls on the splitter, which I removed.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I happen to run a Biesemeyer overhead guard and pop in splitter on my saw. They are in use whenever it is practical. Because many commercial shops use sliding saws, mostly european makes, I am also quite aware of riving knives. Given my choice ( and lots of money) that would be the way I would go. Even many years ago when I had a Craftsman contractor saw I still left the guards on when ever I could. I get to see way too many people take forced time off because they got sloppy just once.Scott
Scott's Sharpening Service
Glendale, Az.
if you want a short fence just clamp a good flat piece of stock to your existing fence whenever you feel you need it. i normally use a super long- 75"- fence that extends fore and aft of the saw with attached support ledges flush with the table top (which makes for outstanding control on panel stock), but when i'm ripping solid stock that is likely to move even a little (which means most of it) i clamp a piece of 3/4" mdf to the fence that only reaches to about the middle of the blade- from the above post, maybe i should make it shorter still. if you're ripping something that might really go hogwild when it's cut, use two thicknesses of mdf for extra insurance- but maybe stock that is that prone to stress relief warpage shouldn't be cut on the tablesaw- that's what bandsaws are for.
as for the idea of using a steel dowel pin mounted in the zero clearance plate for a splitter/riving knife, i'd make *%#@&&# sure it was far enough back that it would be impossible to raise the blade high enough to hit it!!! a wooden blade of sorts would be safer, but much more hassle to position and install. the steel pin wouldn't bother me as long as it's properly epoxied in. (i have european eqpt with the aforementioned overhead guards and carriage mounted splitters)
anyway, that's mho.
mitch
FWIW, there is a thread in progress involving splitters and riving knives right now; see my description in Tablesaw Price Check.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
"Who makes the short fence? Please don't tell me to cut off my existing fence. (An Excalibur). Easy to fit to American cabinet saws? Expensive"
if you have a unifence they make a short fence for it . I like the unifence cuz of its adj. ability to slide front or rear to achieve the "short fence" I use a beismeyer splitter with it works good. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Slainte
I built new rivvers for both standard and TK blades for my old junk saw. I cut them from a dull 1/8" blade. The TK rivver had to be ground down to 3/32". Support a local machine shop of your choice. Grin<>
Here's my question to you. Appreciate your in-sight on the short fence. Could I put a short pheonolic insert on the face of my current regular lenght fence? What are your thoughts as to will this serve the same purpose or can you think of draw-backs that would make it non-funtional..
Got to get to work. Again, appreciate your insight as I have little knowledge of the workings of the short fence. I need some en-lightment here. Know your busy, so when-ever it's convenient for you.. Thanks..
sarge..jt
You could do that Sarge, but that would only give you something like, what(?) a 1/4" or so space between the end of the false phenolic fence and the long fence. Some material might bow more than that, and it's an awkward number to calculate. I'd suggest it might be better to bond/screw/etc., the phenolic material to a piece of wood (or pieces of man made board) and then plane it down to a convenient thickness, e.g., 1"--- or 2" might be even better giving a bit more space. You wan't to rip to exactly 2-13/16", set the long fence to 4-13/16", etc.. Of course, if you work in metric like me, pick something else for a convenient thickness, such as 30 mm or 40 mm. You could also curve the end of the false fence to approximate the circumference of the saw blade. You caught me at lunchtime, this being 2:30, so neo sweat. I take late lunches. Makes the pm go quickly, ha, ha, and I miss the lunchtime rush if I'm eating out. Slainte.Website
Slainte
Thanks for the reply. I want to be sure I fully understand what you've advised. Understand the 1/4" space between false fence and the true fence. Not a problem as I can attach phenolic to MDF with counter-sunk sheet-metal screws. I also have access to thicker phenolic as BIL is a machinist at a major air lines. The thickness of false fence in relation to the current scale indicator marker is also not a problem. I use Starrett self-adhesive tapes on my rails. Pull the old tape off and replace after the new false fence has been added to accomodate whatever the new correct measurements are. I never trust the scale anyway. Still measure distance from outside tip of blade to fence 3 times on front and rear of blade. Fanatic about the set-up as I have plenty of time to avoid mistakes.
Noticed in your pic that your fence has adjustable slides on the back side. I suppose my question is: Where in relationship to the blade should the fence start and end. How long should the short fence be. What is the advantage to the adjustable slides on the fence. Is there one fixed position or a reason that moving it forward or backward would become more advantageous?
Hate to be pain, but I have been WW for 30 and am not familiar with the Euro short fence theory. I have seen it used but was not in a position to ask why. This would not only be a benefit to me, but probaly a lot to begginers listening in that are also curious as to the safety advantages of the short fence. I am definitely going to give it a Go. Been looking for better ways for 30 and still on the prowl. BTW, nice dovetails you posted month or so ago.
sarge..jt
What kind of price can you get on that phenolic Sarge?
Tom
Cheap.. Explanation is MY BIL and others at Delta pool and buy various sheets of phenolic, aluminum etc. when Delta has auctions to clear for new eqipment. They split it up for their needs. If he has anything on hand I need, he usually gives it to me. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. He is a machinist and I've got the WW tools. Pretty good combo.
I also have a friend in the plastics business. He gets me scraps of 1/4 and 1/2 when he has an opportunity. I build most of my jig faces, etc. from that. My BIL come up with some pretty unusual stuff. I think they have an auction every year to clear for newer equipment and materials they have purchased. They have a little kitty they drop a couple of dollars in every day just for the auction.
Is there a thickness you can't get for a particular purpose? If so respond by e-mail and I'll see he or his co-workers might have on hand. If so state the size and thickness. I won't make a promise I can't keep, but it won't hurt to ask. They buy some things at those auctions I didn't know existed! ha....
sarge..jt
Sarge, there's no real need to change the measuring tape on your long rip fence for you only add the auxillary rip fence when needed, so it's just a case of adding the extra inch or two inches to the set for those occasions. When you want to use a dado blade, etc., without the auxillary rip fence, those old measurements still hold good, so leave your scale as before.
Regarding the position of end of the 'short' fence when ripping, set it to hold the timber just beyond the point of the finished cut, i.e., as soon as the front downward chopping front teeth have completely cut the material it is released and free. In practice this means setting the fence about half an inch beyond this point, and certainly before the half way point of the blade. To practice this technique you can simply add a suitably sized board to your long fence. Once you've got the general idea, I swear you'll never go back to ripping with a long fence. It's a pity I can't simply demonstrate the technique, because it is all so simple when shown and seen. Anyone from Taunton want to pick up on that? Send an editor and a video camera down to this god-forsaken hell hole in TX. whilst it's cool enough, and I'll run through some European style sawing techniques for you on my Wadkin. My consultancy fees are really quite reasonable, ha, ha. Slainte. Website
FWIW,
Grizzly contractor and cabinet saws have their power switches on the left except their "12" Professional Cabinet Saw" which has it on the right.
Jet saws have the switch on the left.
Laguna - left on some, left of center on some.
Ridgid - right.
Rojek - just left of center.
Current Delta Unisaws and contractor saws - left
Dewalt - left
Powermatic - left
Felder - Really on the left! That is, on the left facing wall of the "cabinet"
Rich
Rich
Thanks for the quick reference. Saves a lot of steps going to look. My modified has the switch to the right also and I stand left of blade. I like the new Jet Super set up as it has a magnetic switch that you can place anywhere on the fence rail. I'm going to add 2' of wire internally and run it out the left side and attach a magnet to the switch. I would prefer the switch directly in front of where I position myself on the rail for easy access. Makes sense to me.. Late EST Take care..
sarge..jt
Slainte
Thanks.. I forgot the dado would come into play. Good point for the exact addition so I can just add 2 to normal set-up and ready to go both ways. Getting late EST and my clearer thinking is usually done AM. ha..
It would be helpful if TP did let you demo. I got it though. I am very at one with the machine when I operate. I see and feel when the cut actually stops as the work-piece makes its way past the front chopping teeth. Simply a matter of keeping it tight to the fence until it completley clears the rear of blade. That explains the whole theory of stopping the fence just beyond that point. It's a free ride from there anyway. Very clever! I think I'm going to like this theory as I can actually visualize the entire thing taking place without going to the saw.
I agree about standing to the left as I have a left tilt blade and am right handed. I also use right hand to feed and left to exert pressure to the fence diagonally just b-4 the blade. I also add a springboard to slider to give even pressure to the left of the workpiece. I find the spring-board is much more efficient than a feather-board. I do not feel un-easy with the steady stance and this procedure. My spring-board will catch a left kick. The fence catches the right and I add a small feather-board to fence for vertical hold-down on the right. I added a toggle clamp to the rear of the spring-board on the rear. I adjust it so the rubber bumper rides just above the surface of the work-piece in case of kick-up to the left. I concentrate on the inter-action of the machine and the work-piece. About as much concentration as I would give a King-Cobra I had backed into a corner. Worked pretty well for 30 years now. I'm giving the short fence a try-out as the theory sounds solid. I already consider my methods safe. I think this short fence might just take safety up one more level!!
Thanks.....
sarge..jt
"Simply a matter of keeping it tight to the fence until it completley clears the rear of blade."
No, no Sarge, not the rear of the blade. That's kickback territory because those rear teeth are rising. The piece being dimensioned needs to be free of the blade immediately (or as soon as practically possible) after the cut, which means the front downward chopping teeth only have to be cleared before the fence releases the part. Slainte. Website
Slainte
Got you. Will set up fence tomorrow and log some miles to get the correct feel and read. You're right on the rising rear teeth. The only time I've ever got a kick-back is when I got in a hurry and set the rear of fence closer to blade than the front as my fence locks on both ends. Correct that if I have mis-judged what I concluded was the reason. Again, thanks.
sarge..jt
Slainte
Went to the lumber yard this morning and got 100 linear ft. of 6/4 6" wide cedar. I now have 150 31" long 1 1/2" square deck railing supports. Cut them with a improvised short fence attached to the face of my rip fence.
Thanks for the tip-off on the rear rising teeth. I am aware that the rear teeth come into play, but for 30 years focused on the front chopping teeth. The rear teeth have been a factor sitting under my nose for 30 years and I never added there importance to the equation. I made about 170 rips today with the short fence and observed the relationship they play with the complete rip cut. After 30 years I just got the complete big picture!
I got excellent rips using the short. The work-pieces seemed to glide through the saw. At no point did I feel the slightest rearward resistance. I checked the measure-ment and set-up about every 20 rips to see if anything had mis-aligned. Never had to make an adjustment. Dead-on for over 190 rips as I also ran a few 3/4, 4/4 and 5/4 through just to see what fence adjustment I would have to make.
I now realize what the sliding adjustments on the back of your short fence are for. I set the blade with a full tooth above the work-piece. Every 1/4" addition to thickness of the work-piece related to the rear of the short fence having to be moved 1/8" toward the center of blade in my set-up. I don't know the math, but found that interesting.
You have created a believer in short fences. I will build a short fence face for my long rip fence tomorrow. Got T-slots on top of the long fence, so I can make a quick, forward and rear adjustment of the short fence I will adapt to the face. I plan to use it from this day forward except for full sheets on the rare occasion I have to cut them down.
Thank you for all your help and patience. I am a better WW today than yesterday. I was to give a class next Sat. on building box jigs for the TS at a local club. The subject has just been changed to The Advantages of the Short Rip Fence. I have a feeling a bunch of locals fences are going to shrink in the next couple of weeks. IMO, it just makes good sense!!
sarge..jt
Enjoy the RugBee (or is that Rugby.grin>he..he)
Thanks for the feedback Sarge. I'm glad the experiment worked out. Actually, that's two bits of positive feedback in one thread, so it must be time for a beer. Rugby's just started too on the tele-- a Currie Cup game from South Africa-- so that's definite cause for a wee quaffing, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ. Website
Slainte
Enjoy the beer and game. I actually like rugby. I saw a game of cricket down-under once. Bad news is to this day I don't have a clue what they were doing. Good news is, they seemed to be having a he-l of a good time! Ha...Thanks again and have a great week-end. Been very en-lightening for me..
sarge..jt
Well, er, Sarge, they were playing cricket, which is kind of like that weird American sport baseball, but much slower-- much more like chess, and with breaks for lunch and ,---er, tea breaks. Blame the bleedin' English for that innovation, but it is a very civilised sport. If you cheat a bit, it just ain't cricket, so to speak in Britspeak, and very especially in Indian (sub-continent) speak where cricket and its mores is the number one sport. Slainte.Website
Richard.....I did just that (made up a 'short' fence), once before, when this old business came up before, to try.....I worked with it for a while. I felt I had much less control, I know the quality of the results were less good, and I felt less safe than using the long fence. I went back to the long fence, and was glad to do so. I think in skilled hands either way works, and it comes down to training and preference.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Bill, despite what others have told you, do yourself a huge favor and scrap that blade guard. IMO if a blade guard is poorly made (I've yet to see even a half decent stock American style one) they are more dangerous than no blade guard at all. think about it, your feeding your stock through and it get's caught on the blade guard, and now your stuck holding on to a piece of wood with a spinning piece of metal inside it, either trying to force it through or fumbling around to shut off the saw with one hand.
either go out and buy yourself an aftermarket splitter and guard (overhead ones are the most convenient) or if your up to it you could make one yourself. I used to use no guards at all, but I tried a very simple method of making a splitter that I saw in a recent FWW. first I made several 0 clearance inserts, and then I took a 1/8 steel dowel and glued it into a hole that I drilled just behind and parallel to the blade. obviously you can't use thin kerf blades like this, but I don't use them anyway. not only do I feel much safer when using my saw my cuts seem to be a bit more accurate. hope this helps
andrew
Andrew,
Sorry, but I believe that is very poor advice. There is no indication that Bill's blade guard is "poorly made." Work getting hung up on the guard? Please!
American guards and splitters, while inferior to riving knives and crown blade guards are far, far better than nothing at all. From the sound of Bill's level of experience this is not the time for him to try to manufacture a splitter. Although he should learn to use the guards and to become familiar with sound table saw practices, leading perhaps to after-market add-ons.
Bill, do NOT scrap your blade guard!
Rich
Rich, I am basing my opinions that the craftsman splitter is poorly made from the splitters that I have seen on craftsman saws in the past. I have also seen and heard stories about people having problems feeding stock through because their cheap splitter has been knocked out of alignment or bent out of shape, and in this case I'd rather be using no splitter at all, but that's just my opinion. I also don't believe I told Bill to use his saw without a splitter, what I said was that he should invest in a quality aftermarket one that will be more user friendly. if a splitter isn't working as it is supposed to then it takes the fun out of using a table saw, wouldn't you agree? even with Bill's limited experience making a zero clearance insert, drilling a hole and gluing in a dowel pin shouldn't be a difficult task at all. and with a splitter like this, it's more likely to get used as it doesn't get in the way as frequently.
"took an 1/8 inch steel dowel and glued it in place for my splitter..."
To Andrew, ....and everone else posting on this thread....
I read that same article and thought about making me a couple of those for my PM66. The only concern I have about this is the fact that just a small dab of epoxy is holding this steel bit in place. What if that steel bit eventually over time worked itself loose? Now you have the chance of coming face to face with a steel projectile when the darn thing falls into the spinning blade. It would be the same as being shot in the face with a bullet!
Anyone else have any thoughts about this set-up? Am I just being paranoid?
Davo
I would have the same concern. What's wrong with gluing in a piece of hardwood or laminate or something like that?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I thought "dowel pin in throat plate for splitter" is a good idea. How about wood dowel pin filed down to what ever thickness is needed. I was going to suggest 1/8 brass screw, but then we're back to the bullet theory which I think is quite correct.
Davo, yes i think that worrying about a dowel pin coming loose and lodging itself in your head is being a bit paranoid. as long as the hole you drill is the correct size that dowel shouldn't come out until the rest of the insert deteriorates into dust. for a proper fit, the hole should be a bit undersize so that it takes a light tap with a hammer to set it in place. to give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove the dowel imagine how difficult it would be to remove a nail you had driven partly through your insert without a hammer. on top of this now factor in that that nail has been epoxied in place. dowels are also ground smooth and there is so little friction that this wouldn't present a problem. last but not least, gravity is also working against you, so if the pin worked itself loose it would just drop into the cabinet below. it would take a huge impact to loosen the dowel pin, and you would definitely notice that.
I was a bit nervous the first time i used mine for the same reasons, but i quickly realized that I had nothing to worry about. if you don't have a splitter on your saw you'll love them.
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the insight.
Hi Heidi's Dad. I like the idea of using a metal pin because you know exactly what diameter the shaft is from beginning to end. Using a wood dowel, the dowel may be a bit irregular in shape.
I believe the FWW issue said to use a drill bit of the appropiate diameter and drill a hole clear thru the zero clearance throat plate, then cut off the drill bit at the smooth shank end and expoxy this piece in place. I think I might modify this pin before inserting into the throat plate by drilling a small hole thru the shank, inserting another pin thru this drilled shank hole, and epoxy or spot weld it in place so as to form a "t" shape. This "T" would prevent the pin from popping out onto the saw table. And, like Andrew pointed out, should the splitter pin come loose in it's hole, the worst that could then happen is for the pin to fall below the throat plate. Being zero clearance, this pin might make a racket, but would not be able to shoot back up at me...the plate would deflect it.
Just a thought.
I might just try something like that....if I ever get the time. Until then, I'll just use my stock guard and splitter. Been working OK for me so far.
Davo
Must admit, I never use the thing, although I know I should. I cut a lot of dadoes and grooves as well a thin stock so it would be off most of the time any way. I've been thinking of trying Grizzly's Board Buddies and/or a wide guard with dust collection.
Jeff
I do use it most of the time, but there is times I take it off like most of the other people here..
ToolDoc
I know this must be a dumb question to the pros, but what cuts require removing the blade guard/splitter that can't be done more safely another way? I've only been doing this for about 3 years, but I haven't foudn a need to take my guard off. I use circualr saw or jig saw for sheet goods, miter saw for cross cuts, band saw for tall cuts, router for dadoes, etc.
I started out using a $99 benchtop TS, and as I got smarter about safety, I realized the guard/splitter were not the best design. So I went shopping for a contractor model, ready to spend $800-1000 for something good. But from what I saw, the guards/splitters were about the same design and quality. After much thought, I ended up buying a BT3000 for $240 (clearance at HD) JUST because the splitter (riving knife) moved up and down with the blade. I don't care that it's not taken seriously by pros, but it works great for me. The same guard/splitter on a Delta, Jet or Powermatic contractor saw, and I would have been a happy customer, born in the USA.
Stan,
There are lots of situations where you can't push the material past the guard (on an American saw) because you are cutting with the top of the blade below the top of the material.
The same limitation will hold for a eurosaw if the crown guard is mounted to the top of the riving knife.
Of course in such a situation, the work fully contains the blade, so it is not dangerous while still in the wood. But it suddenly "pops out" at the end of the board.
Rich
Your uses are fine. But I prefer the tablesaw for long (rip direction) dados, among other uses. I've also done a fair amount of single blade grooving for long splines, something really, really difficult to do with a router...think about the jig needed to center that thing on the edge of a 15/16" board that is possibly 7-8' long. I feel the same way about dados, especially those that are going to be doubled up, possibly 1-2" in from BOTH edges. Set up the dado blade. Set the fence. Run the boards through. By the time you're done, you'd have the first router jig set up and ready to run.
There is no one way to anything in woodworking, possibly with some very minor exceptions. What's right for you is not right for someone else. Just because you do something one way is no reason at all for another person to do it the same way.
On a general basis, I prefer to resaw on the bandsaw, but there are times when I feel it works better on the table saw, so that's what I do. Another time when the guard is off. Too, there are people who don't have a bandsaw who may still need to do an occasional resaw.
Woodworking is far too diverse for one person to say, "I do it this way," with the aim of being an exemplar for others. It will work for some, very well. It will work for others not at all.
Wanna know what a PM66 looks like? -- here's a web page I ran across this morning, and it will also show you the extent to which some people will go to get a blade guard that makes them happy (he made the unit himself):
http://www.craftsman-furniture.com/shop.html
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I absolutely WANT that shop!!! Isn't it spectacular? My shop has to share space with two vehicles.. UGH! By the by.. made my way down to the local Woodcraft store today. Talk about eye candy! I spent two hours browsing.. made me want to go home and kick my Craftsman tablesaw. Picked up a 35mm forstner bit.. a 23/32 straight router bit for plywood dadoes.. a nifty extension rig for my drill press.. some bi focal safety glasses.. another Bessey K body clamp.. edge banding and cutter.. I mean I had a great time. Getting ready to start building a home office. Got an entire room to work with. Ain't it great?
Bill
Hi Bill, c'mere -- while the big guys are bendin' elbows over the power feeders and stuff, we can chat about our sweet little shops, LOL!
Well, if you have any Bessey K-Bodies you'e ahead of me! I missed out on the great deal they had on 'em at Sears a few months back, and still haven't bought any. First bookcase I build will probably spur me to drop the $$ though. Sounds like you had a very fun and successful trip to Woodcraft. Don't be too hard on your Craftsman saw -- it'll serve its purpose I'm sure, and if you take real good care of it, someone will buy it from you when you "upgrade"!
I feel pretty lucky my shop space is mostly mine -- share about 1/6th of it with the family mechanic (but then who's measuring, right?). Small price to pay for keeping all of our Chevy's in great working order though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
And, by the way, what the heck IS a power feeder, anyway? Some guy was rhapsodizing about it on this thread earlier and I asked but didn't get a reply.
Bill
Bill,
Never had on a table saw, I've been at it for about 15 years, still got all ten.
Paul
Yeah, I've gotten away with it up to now, too. But I've put mine on and plan to use it. Tell you the truth.. someone mentioned that it helps direct the sawdust into the bag, and that in itself sounds like a big plus to me.
Bill
Late to reply but my craftsman saw had better guard than my delta unisaw. The craftsman guard had a thumb screw that you could loosen and rotate the guard away when needed (I always try to use the guard). The unisaw makes you remove the throat plate, loosen a bolt, rotate the guard and put the plate back. A $300 saw vs a $1300 saw. It should be easier than having to buy the uniguard for $300! The craftsman guard worked great.
Bill,
Dust collection is a big thing with me and I've been doing some research on table saw dust collocation especially above the blade. I have been considering the Biesemeyer system for my Delta table saw. Funny, it looks suspiciously like a blade guard! I think the same system comes with a splitter, which I would use.
Paul
Man! I started all this by asking whether I should attach my Craftsman blade guard.. reattach, actually.
I just got into woodworking this summer. Bought the most expensive 10" Craftsman contractor's saw they had and went around back of the store to customer pick up. Out came two huge boxes.. one with the tables and motor.. the other with the rails and fence. I had no idea I would have to *assemble* the dern thing!
It took me two full days to get the saw put together, but I'm glad I did it because I learned more about the tool than I might ever have done otherwise. I followed the manual and installed the guard just as it said.. but then I noticed the two spring loaded things with teeth on either side of the guard in back and wondered how the wood would get past them. I had no idea what they were or what their purpose was. So I took the thing off.. remembering that in my video from Norm.. he didn't have one mounted. I figured what's good enough for Norm is good enough for me.. especially since he included several admonishments to, "remember to read and follow all safety instructions, and there is no more important rule than to wear these, safety glasses."
So I built his garage workshop, (two wall cabinets with shelves between, and three base cabinets, one with a flip up table top on rollers) in two weeks, working a few hours each day and full days on the weekends.
Now, after following this thread for well over a hundred posts, including some from obviously very skilled craftsmen, I don't know two things.
1) How did I complete this project without injuring myself.
2) How did I complete this project, period.
Thanks to all of you who posted on this subject. I have learned a great deal.. and probably averted serious future injury.
Bill
Bill,
Threads like this are the best that forums like these have to offer. I don't think a single one of us didn't learn something here.
Rich
Rich Rose: I don't think a single one of us didn't learn something here.
Amen to that, Brother!!!
Bill
I second Rich's motion. I certainly learned some things here that I consider final pieces of a jig-saw puzzle I have been trying to put together for 30 years. In the 70's it was hard to get infromation as we didn't have the advantage of rapid communication with other WW's. This thread is a good example of people in WW at several levels working together to help solve some problems we have been plaqued with for a long time.
In the end you will be the one that makes the decision on how you are going to accomplish something in your shop. You are lucky to be able to make that decision based on info you gathered in a few days. Good luck with your decisions and a most hardy Welcome to Wood-Working!
sarge..jt
Sarge, and Rich, and ALL.. after all that's been said here.. and learned here (by me).. I am approaching my next project, (a built-in home office) with more trepidation than I did my first project. Four months ago I didn't know how little I knew.. nor how much I had to learn. Now I feel like I'm standing in the hatch over the drop zone.. afraid to jump!
Bill
Bill: Now I feel like I'm standing in the hatch over the drop zone..
afraid to jump!
Not to worry, Bill. Now you've got a lot of friends who will gladly help you along the path to woodworking knowledge and wisdom.
Wisdom is easily the more important of the two, as we all have learned in this thread, for wisdom will help keep you safe. Knowledge alone will only help you make beautiful things out of wood.
Please, feel free to ask any question of any or all of us, at any time.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom, and for your generosity.
Bill
It's gettin' kinda touchy-feely in here.
Get out to that shop and cut some wood, pilgrim!
Rich
bill
Just think things through all the steps b-4 you do them. If it doesn't make common sense to you, there's probaly a reason. I do most of my cutting early as my concentration is better then. When you're tired, you get sloppy with your work and your safety habits. You have the luxury of not having a dead-line. Schedule your time to do the heavy-duty things when your alert and the lighter task after-ward.
If you don not under-stand how your machines work, find out. Take time to make proper set-ups ( alignment and measurements ). Think through the steps b-4 you do them. Check machinery to make sure it is functioning properly. If you take care of your machinery, it will take care of you.
Should you be afraid of your machines? NO.. Should you respect them? YES.. As I said in earlier post. Respect them as you would a king cobra. You will gain confidence as you go. Now, go ahead and jump! We're right behind you covering your -ss!!
Happy WW
sarge..jt
So you took them off! just like Norm! Norm says wear safety glasses, when is he going to get a pair? I know lots of people who don't use the top guard on the table saw, I also know a few who have had big adventures with them too! as you have gathered by now those 'toothed' pieces are to stop kick back, you also will have gathered that the guards supplied with many machines are a joke, many stick when starting to feed the wood, tough to line up, tough to clean, we should all write to who ever made the saw we use and tell them to fix this major short coming. Maybe better still write to makers who saw we don't have and tell them "I did not buy you saw because the guard is junk" in so many words. I have the DEwalt 746k and use the guard as much as I can but it has some short comings too. I just ordered the fedder guard and will see how well it fits/works.
Nigel, where did you go to order the guard?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
My spelling was off! the guard I ordered is a felder euro II $38 + shipping. I 800 572 0061. I'll post some pics when its installed.
Thanks for the reference; I e-mailed their west-coast rep several days wanting to buy that guard ago but haven't received a peep of a response.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
Before you order, give me a few days to post a picture of the crown guard and plexi-cover I just installed. It cost me, well about $.38 cents. I cut the plexi from the standard cover that came with the saw. A scrap piece of hard-wood and a couple of carriage bolts and nuts. Oh yeah, two #10 pan-head sheet metal screws and a few washers.
The crown covers about half the blade. The plexi goes forward from there to almost the front of the blade. I designed the plexi cover to flip up on the crown without falling. The way I angled the front you can actually see the blade clearly to align with your work-piece. If you measure from blade to fence on rips as I always do, the plexi flips up and out the way.
It's all pretty compact and will work on your current riving knife. You would only have to drill two holes in it. BTW, a hole could be drilled in the top of plexi for adding over-head vacuum system. Got that figured too.
If your interested will upload picture in a few days.
sarge..jt
Sarge, is the Plexiglass impact-resistant? I get so confused about the various plastics, and what works for what, what's dangerous for what! Not long ago, someone made reference to almost losing a finger from a piece of flying plastic that had shattered while being sawed. I'm hopelessly confused.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie: plexi-glass can shatter.. Lexan is shatter resistant.. at work we use the Lexan, nice to work with too. costs more, but is a better material..
ToolDoc
Jamie
Doc is correct about Lexan and plexi-glass. I use the term in general. Kind of like let's have a coke. If you're from Atlanta (the home of coca-cola), when you have a soft drink period you just say coke.
Avoid the plexi if possible. My crown gaurd will allow it as you will see when I post picture. The damage is done when the rear rising teeth come into play and kick the work-piece up and forward or God only knows where. I designed a combo crown gaurd (hard-wood) to counter the up-kick. The Lexan cover in front would simply kick up also if a work-piece did get that far past the crown. I can also raise it as I always measure the distance from the blade to fence. It doesn't fall down like the <><> contraption that comes with the saw. Those pawls that come on those gaurds are about as dangerous as kick-back. I don't want a guillotine attached to the saw. Ha..ha.. I love my fingers as when I grow up I want to be a concert pianist.
The glass on my design is simply to gaurd against touching the blade when the saw is running. It's done in a way that I can see the blade for alignment in the front without even having to flip the glass cover up. The flip is just installed so I can use a square to measure the distance from blade to fence and get out the way when I take the zero insert off.
Be patient and you will see. It is no eigth wonder of the world. Just a very simple solution and it works. Made it from junk material I had on hand in 1 1/2 hrs. Add 2 cups of coffee and another hour thinking it through. Another piece of .38 cent junk for my modified JUNK SAW!! Maybe I'll call it my Saturday Nite .38 Special. It's special to me.........And with an operator that is paying attention, not fool-proof; but pretty safe too.
sarge..jt
I'm looking forward to seeing the marvel, Sarge. I understand about the generic "coke" vs. Coke and plexi vs. Lexan idea, but IMO it's beneficial for readers who might try to copy-cat that the specific term be used in this particular instance. Don't want any of our novice Knotheads to become (Swiss)cheeseheads, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
OK, OK.. I'll try to use the correct terms if I know what they are. He..he.. Probaly a good thing you're riding shot-gun on my pronuciation.
Alright, don't expect a marvel on the crown gaurd. I told you it's simple. The key is is works and it's easy to build. After I did the first one, I could build one for Norm and my saw in probaly 45 minutes. I might modify depending on feed-back. I built it for a certain need in mine. My personal need. You will see. Getting ready to attach in a post to Norm.
Hey, just take it for what's it worth. Simple and effective.
sarge..jt
Great thread! I've learned something new and enjoyed this.
There are the 2 schools of guard:
1.Safer without the damn thing! Keep fingers away from spinning blade!
2.Guard on and use as much as possible.
Personally I am from school 1. but because I teach at a Community College about halfway through this thread I became an instant member of school 2 at the college. The following would explain my tardiness in joining this school:
Now there are 3 tablesaws at the college: a Unisaw, an SCM and an Altendorf. All are outfitted with overhead type guards(Beismeister) that I now insist the students use religiously. If you want to see something scary, watch a student try to rip a narrow board with a pushstick with these guards in place.
Now that is unsafe! One student would give a last shove to get the ripped piece through the go lane because even with the guard lifted off the blade, he was still jammed up! The last thing I want to see a student do is make an uncontrolled push close to the saw with the potential of slipping into the now exposed blade.
A highschool woodworking instructor told me he demos ripping narrow boards with the guard off to the side and says always use the guard and hopes they get his drift about setting it over the fence out of the way when ripping narrow stock.
I would appreciate any enlightenment on this. Is it possible to retofit crown guards on these saws?
Also has any one installed the saw brake on their tablesaw that is demoed with a hot dog.
The nanosecond it touches the weiner a brake instantly stops the saw.Leaves the weiner
with a just a scratch. What's up with that?
thanks,silver
Silver;
Same situation as you....college program, two Biesemeyer guards on saws, the use of which I enforce....even though there are many times they make things very awkward, and may be counterproductive. My students have to try to do an operation with the guard in place...that's a rule. There are times when they can come off, but only after trying to make them work. At best, they might have saved form getting a couple of pings from knots flying up, etc....nothing more dangerous, because I do my best to make sure nothing worse is going to happen. In general, I find them distracting and badly designed....honestly wish I could rave about them. I'll probably get an Excalibur for my home shop, but that's more because of dust collection than anything else.
I saw the saw stop demoed at a show in Germany; works as advertised. But it can't be retrofitted to a saw...has to be built in, and noone has adopted it.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian,
Thanks for your input. I'm with you...safety first always. 8 years accident free and I want to keep it that way (knock on wood). It helps to know your situation. Guard or no guard,if you're taught the safe way to always keep your fingers away from the blade, correct hand position , proper pressure techniques and to always keep the lane open in both directions you are working safely. I will adopt your rule to try to make the guard work first.
thanks,silver
silver
I was reading your post again and caught what you said about retro-fitting the saws you use in teaching with safer equipment. I don't know the answer, but if I had the saws I bet it could be done. I took a saw a neighbor was selling in a yard sale and modified the heck out of it. Most anything could be done. It would require looking at what the set up is and designing a way to modify or change some things totally. A machine shop would probaly have to make or modify parts.
My bottom line is, why don't you give the students a shot at a re-design or modification to up-grade the safety features. It would be interesting to see if they could. Maybe not, but it would give them a challenge. As you know from teaching, at that age a challenge is often a motivator. You don't have to actually make any changes. It would probaly high-lite the need for better safety equipment to them.
BTW, if you want to drop off that Altendorf or Uni-saw for several months, I'd be happy to take a look. Grin<>
sarge..jt
SARGE,
Great idea and for my own shop which has a Uni-saw(BTW...what's your address...I"m dropping this in the mail to you tonight hehe)...But at the college anything that doesn't have a CSA stamp or equivalent could be a legal liability in the event of an injury. At least that's my take on it. I think we're stuck with the damn overhead guards and even if they are slightly modified there could be liability hell. Same problem as not using the guards--"So Mr. Silver, you're telling this court that guards were in place but you did not insist the students use them? Or ..."So Mr. Silver was your modification to the guard on that machine stamped by an engineer"? I don't think I'm being paranoid...I hope someone corrects me if they think I am.
As I mentioned to Adrian, 8 years accident free at the college(knock on wood) and I want to keep it that way! These guards are a sticky wicket.
thanks, silver
silver
I agree about the liability. I'm not too sure how I worded it, but point was to just let them think of ways of improving the safety. No actual modifictions. Maybe a few extra credit points for a working theory. That way when they are on their own they have the option of doing what they want.
Congrats on the great safety record. Concentration and respect for the machine will get you a long way. Most accidents I am aware of had to do with distraction, improper maintenence, short-cuts or over-confidence leading to distraction. Most could have been avoided by common sense and following proper procedure.
Have a great day and keep up the good work-drill sargent.ha..
sarge..jt
Uncommon sense,Sarge....had a rough night tonight-a new cabinet making class. I think next week I'll slow it down and take a 1/2 hour break with no machines running. Usually teach 3 hours straight. I saw some safety problems...next week zero tolerance.
This guard thing is driving me nuts. My assistant, Wiggly McIver, thinks it safer without them on the narrow rips and, problem is, I agree with him. Liability...but the bottom line is safety...Ripping narrow stock with the Beismeister overhead guard doesn't feel safe to me, a woodworker with over 30 years of experience on a tablesaw and I'm going to insist my students use it? What's wrong with this picture, Sarge?
This is the uncommon sense part I think, which tells me to instruct the students to set the guard off to the right of the fence out of the lane when ripping narrow stock and always watch and respect the spinning blade with or without a guard.
You're hands never have a chance to enter harm's way if you respect this machine at all times. Never drift for a nanosecond... or something like that.
Could a sawstop be retrofitted, you know, McIver style? I don't need an engineer's stamp as long as it works. Would be the right thing if you ask me.
Have any idea why spellcheck doesn't corrrect these?
cheers,
silver
Edited 10/5/2002 2:43:21 AM ET by silver
silver
I understand the delima over with or without. I love the crown gaurd. I comfortably rip 1 1/4" with it on. I use a short fence. (See pictures to Norm just posted). Also, I use a 1/2" wide tall push shoe with and over-head handle. Under the handle I modified ( I'm always modifying ) and put a hand gaurd like a sword has. It protrudes 3" left of and over the blade. If by chance the hand were to be mysteriously pulled toward the blade, the hand gaurd would hit it first and hopefully deflect it in another direction. Just a thought I had. Hope I don't have to have the opportunity to see if it works.
Also, on the rear of saw you might add a bridge gaurd. If you have a rear extention or something to attach to. I don't know what it's called cause I just made it up. Two block of scrap wood 1/2 taller than stock being ripped. Space them 2" wider the the stock. Add a 3/4" hard-wood board across the top and clamp to extention or rear of table.
You have no upward protection from kick with just the splitter as most saws. Those rear risers IMO are usually going to cause the stock to rise first. There would be no counter without some kind of overhead. The stock would be ungaurded until it goes under the bridge. I realize you have over-head gaurds. I have never seen them used. Can they be used to prevent the stock lifting behind the saw blade, or is the splitter and over-head built as one unit and have to be in-corporated with the saw blade itself?
The saw-stop would be ideal for the school and industrial situations. Other thread talking about the soon to be of that marvel. I don't think it would be cost effective for the one-person shop. I agree that if you use common-sense and proper procedure, you're 99% home. I also have been WW for 30 and all joints intact. I have the luxury of cutting when I'm alert in the morning. Do lesser task as I get tired and lose some the the concentration. Works for me..ha.....
If the new students are anything like my 16 yr old, you might consider the Federal Witness Protection Program..Ha.ha Just kiddin' .......of course..Grin<>
sarge..jt
Sarge, I'd love to see your guard--though I'm sure it'll cost me a lot more than 38 cents here in Japan ^o^
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
I hope you like it. Don't be pessimistic, even in Japan where every-thing is high it will be cheap if you decide to go this route. It's simple ( IMO, simple is sometimes better). You can make a decision after you see it. You may come up with a better idea.
I bet you have all the materials on hand including the glass from your standard gaurd assembly. It's simply a matter of glass, wood, bolts, screws and washers. You just put them in a pile and take away every-thing that doesn't look like a simple, effective, and cheap to build crown gaurd. Ha..ha..
I haven't come up with a quick release for the riving knife yet. It takes me about 2 1/2 minutes to take off the 4 screws on the zero insert and turn the two thumb knobs on the riving knife release. I wanted the Felder for 30k. With the difference in it and my $280 JUNK SAW I went ahead and payed off my mortage! That allowed me to work part time. Now I have the spare time to take the extra 2 minutes. Grin<>he..he
Soon......
sarge..jt
Norm
Here's the crown. The picture with the old Polaroid is the best I could do with the light. They don't make the little flash cubes anymore for the old-timers camera.
I built this for my personal preference. You could make the crown extend farther toward the front of blade and the Lexan cover shorter or deeper. I am only concerned with the rear rising teeth and this will counter. I dropped the Lexan 4mm below the top teeth as I only show a full tooth when cutting. I purposely left the first two teeth uncovered as I did some home-work and they are in the work-piece when my hands get anywhere that close to the blade. The advantage of our slider and I use push-sticks and friction pushs when ripping on the short fence I just made Monday.
Hope you get an idea that might save you some bucks, and possibly a few fingers. Let me know if you think if this might meet your needs.
sarge..jt
Sarge
You are a total idiot with computers. Better stick to tools as you got a message posted to FG the other nite without even clicking the post function. There's obviously a black hole involved with cyber-world and you're going to end up in it. Go back to your shop and do what you do best. Work with tools!!
Norm: Will post the pictures in about 8 PM EST. I blew the attachments as I had one with blade down and one with blade up. I will have to wait for MIS help (my wife just left to take my son somewhere). If I have to post one attachment at a time, I will get it done. If I have to fly to Japan and hand deliver the pictures, I will get it done. Ha..ha..he..he What do expect with an IQ like mine. I thought they said 143. Maybe I mis-understood and it was 43..Dah......
sarge..jt
Norm
Picture 1 of two. I hope. Ha.......
sarge..jt
Norm
Here's the second the second group of southern home-style cooking....
sarge..jt
Okay, Sarge, now I see what you've been cooking up. Thanks for the photos. You're right, it should be very easy to whip something up from some lexan or cast acrylic, even if it costs a bit more then the 38 cents for the extra lexan (I don't want to cut down my original guard, since I might donate it to a museum some day). I might think about this some more and see what I can do.
View ImageView Image
Speaking of throat plates for the BT3000, the above are some of mine made from cast acrylic; from your photos it looks like you're still using the Ryobi zctp; if you're interested in some home-brewed types that allow you to use those four original screws as levelers, check out the following threads on the Ryobi board (ahem, all you have to do is click on the threads to go to them). Thread 1Thread 2Thread 3Thread 4Thread 5Thread 6Thread 7If you need any help getting your Frankensaw pictures uploaded for the Ryobi board, let me know and I'll try to help.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
NIce throat plates. Yep, I was thinking of a self-leveler as I have on the router table insert I made. I currently have the throat plate shimmed. The levelers are a good idea. I'm going to the sites on your post as soon as I finish this. Sounds like the folks over there have been doing some cooking also. I need to get over there and check things out. I'm kinda spread out with time. I'll have to take time.
Thanks for the assist. Good luck with what-ever crown you come up with. I am aware of the high prices in Japan. People would choke if they knew what you paid for gasoline or steak. Ha.. Keep me posted if something new comes up with the BT. The saw is right for modification.
Loved the Frankensaw. Ha... You nailed it..I do think there were bolts of lightning and strange atmospheric things going on when I created it. The mad tinkerer in the shop-lab. he..he.
Latter...
sarge..jt
Norm
Did a little re-vamping on the crown gaurd. I have the front Lexan so it slides off instead of flipping up. Cut a groove to lower the gaurd so it sits 1/8" below top of the highest tooth. Also, recessed the bolt heads inside on the rigth hand fence side to squeeze out another 1/4" of rip. Can now rip as narrow as 1 1/4" without removing gaurd. The big change is instead of the Lexan flipping up, I added two T knobs to the left side and modified the tail of the gaurd. In about 12 seconds ( quick as I could pull it off ) the whole hard-wood gaurd flips from 270* to beyond 360*. Much easier to get to blade for measuring. It's the same as not having the gaurd on.. Will upload a picture tomorrow if light is ok.
Many thanks on the self-levelers for the throat plate. That allowed me to move to the next project which is a quick release for the riving knife. Look under your saw. The two bolts and nuts are pointed directly at the left cabinet side. No obstruction in between them and the left cabinet wall. That's a hint. Will be following up soon as I'm headed back to the shop. Finishing the new-improved crown and sliding short fence I made. Also adding a 32 extension that is attached to existing 14" extension. Attached to under-side of rear ext. with door hinges. When not in use just drops straight down and hangs suspended to the current rear extention to save space.
Latter..
sarge..jt
It'll be interesting to see the photos of your new setup!
>>The two bolts and nuts are pointed directly at the left cabinet side. No obstruction in between them and the left cabinet wall. That's a hint
Yes, but also remember that the motor's got to be able to tilt! That's where I got hung up when trying to design a quick release.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
Good point. I only glanced and did not factor that in. Hmmm... I'm taking a quick coffee break upstairs. My first thought without looking is, How does your dust port have clearance to tilt in the rear! Have to look at it to see if there is enough clearance on side cabinet to pull it off. Also, have you ever seen an adjustable socket wrench like a mechanic uses to get to tight spots. It has the ability to swivel to angles. Brian ( BIL ) has got some handy little speciality tools he gets from vendors that come by the shop at Delta. Will throw the idea by him next time he drops by.
I have the ability to go from under-neath if I move the refrigerator. NO, forget that ( for the moment anyway ). Have to look at that angle also. I know yours is fully utilized under-neath. Good work on that, BTW. Oh well, I'll have a closer look next week. Got a hand-full of little projects going rigth now. Hope to be through by weekend. If you think of any more angles, shout!
Hey, we may not get there, but it won't be because we didn't give it a serious go.
Tomorrow..
sarge..jt
Norm
Will apoligize in advance. Got a shot of three sides and mis-calculated on number of shots left on film. Did not get the crown raised. The three pictures ( rear expecially ) will show you how it raises. Had to thru-cut slot so it will swing back past 360* up to front of rear bolt. Doesn't affect intergrity of the structure as when you tighten bolts and nuts compression closes the slot around the top of the riving knife. Hope the 3 angles give you a good view.
Ha.... I had a 4th picture as I went and got some gold and black decals 2" high. They are now on the front of saw below the height wheel. The light was bad so they don't show up, but guess what they say.. As dubbed by Sir Norm of Japan....
FRANKENSAW
Any questions or comments ask. I got to walk an old dog. Or, an old dog has got to walk an old man. Which-ever way one decides to interpret. Ha....
sarge..jt
Thanks for the new photos, Sarge. They're a bit dim, but I think I get the idea. Also, gotta confess, the "Frankensaw" name really isn't my idea. I've seen it used before to refer to saw overhauls like you've done. IMO, the crown guard is most valuable for preventing kickbacks that occur (rarely) when someone accidentally drops a workpiece back on the top of the blade. In practice, I think a good riving knife should prevent the workpiece from rising on the outfeed side, since (assuming it's close to the blade thickness) it forms a wall that prevents the wood from pressing against the blade as soon as any part of the wood has passed the blade.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Sarge,
Your BT3000 modifications are starting to get a bit out of hand. First the refrigerator and now a crown. Keep it up and your property taxes will go up.
Jeff
Jeff
Funny you mentioned. My county just sent a new appraisal two days ago on the value of the house and property. As you guessed, it went up. Ha...
I threw a tarp over Frankensaw, I don't think they know about that yet. They did catch the new motor on the lawn mower, though. he..he...just kiddin'
sarge..jt
>>I've been at it for about 15 years, still got all ten.
Hey, that's not saying much; everybody's got all ten until the first accident; --then they don't anymore. View Image
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Absolutely correct Norm. No further comment required.
Hi Norm,
Thanks for your concern, I'll leave it off.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Please reconsider your decision. The guard has already saved my fingers once. I was bumped into while working the saw.
Cheers, eddie
Hi Eddie,
I don't like the blade guards that come with the saw, (Delta) and I think it is more dangerous than running without, which I've been doing for the last 10-15 years, however, I have been looking at a high-end system from Biesemeyer for Delta, mainly for dust collection. I think a splitter comes with the set up which I would use. The collection hood is also a guard that you can lift straight up.
There is that better? :-)
Paul
Edited 9/30/2002 5:09:48 PM ET by PAULGEER1
Hi Paul,
" There is that better? :-)"
Much.
Thanks again.
Eddie
Edited 10/2/2002 5:17:25 AM ET by eddie (aust)
Hi Bill,
I have removed the blade guard from my table saw, but I have left the spliter. Norm uses neither. I find the blade guard often obscures the wood being cut, and can be difficult to work with. The spliter will help to prevent the blade from grabbing your stock and kicking it back, but not too much on the safety aspect. I believe that working with an exposed blade is an understood risk of woodworking, but naturally should be carried out with the highest caution.
Honestly, I've never seen a table saw w/ a blade guard or splitter installed. Including in my high school woodworking classes.
I have an old Rockler saw, which of course has no splitter or blade guard.
The riving knives look like a good idea, I intend to see If I can add something like that to my saw. I also intend to build an overhead blade guard out of lexan, from some of the plans shown in this thread.
Of course, mine will be quite different. As far as anti-kickback, the board buddies look like the best idea to me. Need to get a set. Although, I quite regularly use featherboards for this.
There's been some talk of narrow rips. I've always been very comfortable w/ a featherboard holding to the fence, one holding to the table, and a good push shoe (cut one out of straight grain soft wood, they're cheap, durable, don't splinter, and keep your hand away from the blade.)
Bill
P.S. I'm kind of a moderate to light woodworker, though I'm gearing up to build some cabinets and furniture. Definately want a good blade guard first.
I went ahead and reinstalled the blade guard/splitter/riving knife attachment that came with my Craftsman TS. I don't like using the saw as much as I did without the attachment.. but I bought the Sears policy and have a tech coming out Monday morning for a preventive maintenance check provided for in the policy. I plan to have the tech check to see that I have the thing installed properly and if my saw operation is optimal.. after all, I put it together :}
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