Replies

1. 
   jackplane | Oct 13, 2004 03:28pm | #1

   Joinery is the same regardless of which wood you choose.Edge to edge joints are fine without biscuits, but biscuits do add strength. Edge to end grain, like a frame and panel door, do not fare as well and should be reinforced with a double biscuit, one over the other.

     Mortice and tenon is the strongest joint in this application. .But you don't say what door style you are using; frame and panel, or batten. If you have a cope and stick router bit set, that'll help increase strength.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/13/2004 8:35 am ET by JACKPLANE

1. 
   frederic | Oct 13, 2004 07:58pm | #3

   The doors will be frame and pannels type, but the pannels are stained glass, wich are worth twice as much as the cabinet itself, so they have to be well secured in the door.

   What exactly is a cope and stick bit set? I have a tongue and groove set. Is it the same thing?

   Thanks for your help.

   Fred 

1. 
   BArnold | Oct 13, 2004 08:25pm | #4

   Fred,

   A 'cope and stick' joint is created with a rail and stile router bit set such as: http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_match.html

   You could also join your rails and stiles with a tongue and groove joint since that's what you have.  What type of profile are you planning on the rails and stiles?

   Regards,

   Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting

   Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.

1. 
   frederic | Oct 13, 2004 09:56pm | #6

   Ok. I do have a cope and stick set.  The profile I want is as simple as can be, since the cabinet is made from old recycled barn wood and the desing dictates a humble look. I guess I'll go mortise and tenon. Plus, it will make me feel like I acheived a more respectful job with that joint. Biscuits were definately not around when that tree was cut down...

   Thanks to you all, discussing it with you even clarified my own vision of that piece!

   I'll come back with some more questions soon, I know it.

   Fred

2. 
   jackplane | Oct 13, 2004 08:34pm | #5

   A cope and stick bit set allows you to make a profile on the door frame interior, as well as provide a joint  at the stile and rail of the door. Tongue and groove is similar; it allows for a decent joint, but a mortice and tenon would be better.

   With glass doors, the glass is placed in a recess, or rabbett, and strips of wood are pinned to the frame to hold the glass.For easier repair/replacement.

   All in all it depends on the weight of the door.Since glass is considerably heavier than wood or plywood, use the best joint you can make.

2. 
   BArnold | Oct 13, 2004 04:12pm | #2

   Fred,

   Welcome to the forum.  You will find a lot of good information here as I have over the past several months.

   First, on the question of bisquits there are generally two opinions: 1) they should be viewed as an alignment aid only; 2) they add strength to the joint.  For your cabinet, let's look at two different parts of the assembly: the carcase and the face frame.

   For the carcase, I would rabbet the inside edges of the sides to accept the top and bottom.  Then rabbet the inside edge of the backs of the top, bottom and sides to accept the back panel.  Glue and clamp the assembly; no mechanical fasteners are really necessary.

   On the face frame, you have a couple of options for joinery.  If you use half-lap joints at the corners, no mechanical fasteners are necessary; just glue and clamp.  If you miter the corners or butt-join them, I'd use a #10 or #0 bisquit to reinforce the joint.

   Bisquits can be helpful in aligning the face frame to the carcase but there is, once again, the argument about whether or not they add any strength.  I'd view them only as an alignment aid in this case.  You'll be gluing long grain to long grain, so that's where the strength will be.

   I assume from your post that you are making solid panel doors.  Since the boards will be glued edge-to-edge, no bisquits are necessary but some people like to use them to hold the panels in alignment.  I've used them in this application but am getting away from them because they add no real strength when edge gluing.

   Regards,

   Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting

   Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.

   ---

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/13/2004 9:14 am ET by BArnold

1. 
   jackhall | Nov 06, 2004 01:05am | #7

   I am gluing up walnut panels for a wall unit.  Some of the side panels are 21" deep by 48" high.  I had planned to use biscuit wafers but noticed your comment about wafers not really adding any strength to the joint.  I think I will still use them to keep the boards aligned during the edge clamping (3 or 4 pieces per panel).  I do have a question though.  How far apart should the wafers be?  Every 5"?  Every 20"? 

1. 
   BArnold | Nov 06, 2004 01:49am | #8

   "I am gluing up walnut panels for a wall unit."

   I assume that you are using solid walnut, not walnut ply.  Technically, if you're gluing long grain to long grain (edges of boards glued to each other) biskets don't add strength.  However, if the panels are more than a couple of feet long biskets can certainly aid in alignment.  As to spacing, I usually space biskets 6-9" apart; the variable being to place them a couple of inches in from each edge and then space them evenly (more or less) along the length of the joint.

   Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting

   Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.

1. 
   jackhall | Nov 06, 2004 02:23am | #9

   Thanks for the tip Bill.

1. 
   clem | Nov 06, 2004 02:36pm | #10

   If you are planning to make raised panels please make sure you keep the biscuits a good distance away from the ends or you may get an unpleasent surprise when you cut the profile and have the biscuits showing.  Just a thought.

   Tom 

2. 
   ronjoh | Nov 12, 2004 09:02pm | #12

   Today I was starting to draw up a plan for building some night tables, when I came across an article in FWW (Sep/Oct 2003) on biscuit jointer. The article led me to this website for further information and was surprised at the wealth of information here. I'm not to experienced in cabinet making and would appreciate some clarification.

   I was planning on using rabbits and dadoes for assembling the cabinet. The article suggests using biscuits and butt joints for the following reasons 1. "calculating dimensions ... much less painful and error-prone" 2. "assembling a case with rabbets and dadoes requires some extra effort to get the case clamped up squarely" 3. "biscuiting is much faster" and 4. provides sufficient strength. "biscuit jointer can handle all the joints in a basic plywood cabinet - from the case to the shelves or dividers   to the face frame, the base molding and even a drawer"

   I'm hoping this group can help me. My cutting list dimensions are on hold for now. Thanks

1. 
   BArnold | Nov 12, 2004 10:10pm | #13

   Ron,

   Let me address your comments in order.

   The article suggests using biscuits and butt joints for the following reasons:

   1. "calculating dimensions ... much less painful and error-prone"

   Can't argue the logic here.  Calculating dimensions is just a matter of organization.  Rabbets and dados should be the same depth; typically either 1/4" or 3/8" assuming 3/4" plywood is being used.  Let's say you want a cabinet 36" wide; top and bottom are rebbetted into the sides; using 3/8" deep rabbet, your top and bottom panel width would be 35 1/4" (36" minus 1.5" for the sides plus 3/4" [3/8" plus 3/8"] total for the rabbets).  Now, having said that, (and to complicate your life a little..lol) if you consider that 3/4" plywood is typically 23/32" these days, you have another 1/16" total to factor into the equation.  That being the case, you'd add that figure to the top and bottom panels.

   2. "assembling a case with rabbets and dadoes requires some extra effort to get the case clamped up squarely"

   I've done it both ways.  Same effort either way.  Clamps in the same place.  Still check the diagonals to ensure the cabinet is square.

   3. "biscuiting is much faster"

   The best answer to that is: it depends.  If all you're building is a four-sided box, then there's less effort to biscuit the four sides together.  If you have a fixed shelf in the middle, then time is required to carefully measure the exact location for indexing the plate jointer to get the alignment correct.  Could be just as quick to set up a dado blade.

   4. provides sufficient strength.

   Probably.  Again, it depends.  Top and bottom panels are OK either way.  A fixed shelf in the middle of the cabinet will see additional strength from being set into a rabbet.  Look at it this way: if the fixed shelf is biscuited into the sides, you rely on the sheer strength of the biscuit as well as the glue to keep it in place; with the shelf in a rabbet, the entire side panel is part of the support.

   I hope this hasn't confused the issue even more.  Feel free to ask more questions and we'll try to help.

   Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting

   Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.

1. 
   ronjoh | Nov 13, 2004 01:22am | #14

   Thanks  Bill

   Should the shelves be rabbeted and not dadoed?

   Would you still biscuit the face frame?

   Thanks

   PS BTW, Iwould normally have rabbeted and dadoed the joints but the article had me thinking maybe it was a bit of overkill.

   Edited 11/12/2004 5:31 pm ET by ronjoh

1. 
   BG | Nov 13, 2004 02:55pm | #16

   Ronjoh,

   Just a couple of points to add to Bill and Hammer's comments.  As a novice, I tend toward the dado/grove and rabbit method because:

   1. Chipout on the plywood...looks like crap...the dado/grove hides this.

   2.  Glue cleanup...easier with dado/grove 

   3. Easier to to clamp up and square up...not a cake walk, but easier...gotta watch for a cockeyed case.

   A professional cabinet maker (as in Kitchen cabinets) has a setup that is fine tuned along with better quality material.  They have already engineered away many of the negative variables we don't even know about yet...ignorance is bliss....lol

2. 
   hammer1 | Nov 13, 2004 10:24am | #15

   Dadoes are the way to go for end to bottom, partition to bottom, fixed shelves to ends and partitions, rabbets for backs, face frame biscuits for face frame joints, rabbets for face frame to carcass. If you can't add or subtract a 1/4" for dadoes how can you figure the difference between a finished end and a partition? Doesn't sound like a major math problem to me. Glue up is almost the same except, with biscuits instead of dadoes you can make a mess trying to line up and limit squeeze out. Drop a partition in a well fit dado and it will stand there by itself, almost self squaring too. I can't see how lining up dozens of biscuits throughout a piece can be easier than a straight, one cut dado. Dry fitting must be a joy with all biscuits.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   ronjoh | Nov 14, 2004 06:39pm | #17

   Thanks all for the helpful comment.

   I would, however, like to clarify a point. Although my cabinet making is very limited, I do and will continue to use dadoes and rabbets. My question (and direct quotes) were directly related to an article in FWW (Sep/Oct 2003) that suggested biscuits and butt joints were preferable for the points listed. Perhaps many of you expressed your objections to Tony O'Malley (author of article) in previous discussions.

   As a novice, this article raised some questions as to how I should proceed with my current project. Since posting my initial question, I have now found many discussions here on this subject.

   I'm very happy I found this forum with it's wealth of information and fellow woodworkers who are eager to provide a helping hand.

   Thanks 

3. 
   dfg | Nov 06, 2004 10:48pm | #11

   There has been several articles over the last couple of years in FWW looking at the strength of different joinery. In these test a doubled up biscuit has faired very well against the M&T (end grain to edge grain, like a door). Not quite as strong, but pretty close. If I remember right the wood broke before the joinery. I don't have the issue, but I'm sure someone might remember.

   Dave