I’ve been looking at biscuit jointers, and the Porter-Cable 557 seems like a good unit. However, I’ve heard of problems with the pivots on the fence, specifically that they’re made of plastic and don’t last. Does anyone have experience with this jointer? Yea or nay?
Thanks.
Replies
In the Old shop I used to work at they had a Portercable and a Dewalt as well as 2 Lamello classics..The Lamellos were the best..but the Dewalt was a close second I think...The biggest problem I saw with the PC was it seemed tail heavy...and difficult to keep square to the workpiece...as well as an overall "rougher machine finish" than the Dewalt or Lamellos..I have the Dewalt and love it..the PC is a good machine..just has a few little things I dont care for..(the fence/tail heavy/dust bag)...hope this helps...
JC
Thanks, JC. The PC's fence seemed to have a greater variety/range of adjustments than the DeWalt, but I might be wrong about this. Am I? The PC also comes with a 2" and 4" blade. Can the DeWalt handle both sizes?
I'll be using this for baseboard and cove moldings, and I'll also be building some wainscotting, so a biscuit jointer seems like the best method to keep tight joints tight. Question: can biscuits be used to help hold a baseboard or cove molding scarf joint together?
Thanks.
The Dewalt wont handle the smaller mini biscuits...when I use them I have the ryobi mini jointer..really dont use it all that much..as far as the fence on the PC..yes it has more adjustments..but it has them for the mini biscuits...I am just a straightforward type guy I guess..too many bells and whistles make Me nervous..lol...for the base molding..I would just suggest a Miter with glue...really no reason for biscuits unless its a unusualy large molding..then maybe yes they would help...hope this answers your questions...Good luck
JC
I have used a biscuit joiner to fasten baseboard. Do not bother scarfing the joint. Cut square and joint from the face side. Tried scarf joint first time, works but not neccesary.Recently did an automobile show room ,73'-0" without a turn. Jointed and glued the entire run on the floor, then an hour or two later we nailed it up. This was prefinished red oak base, easier to get perfect joints when laying flat on floor.
mike
I have the 557 and I dont think there are any plastic pivots on the fence. There was an issue a while back with the fence not sitting flush when it is fliped up, that is the way I usually use mine. There was a patent infringement issue with Dewalt that caused PC to have to change their design. The redesign had this problem. It has now been re-redesigned and has no problem. I have the re-redesigned version and I works great. I do use the little buiscits and that makes it better for me. I think the Dewalt has a bit more power and that would be nice. Both are excellent units.
Mike
I have the PC 557 and like it. The pivots do look like they are plastic but will probably last a long time and if they break they look easy to replace.
I do not agree with the person that stated that the PC is tail heavy. The handle is mounted to the fence and which makes the plate jointer perfectly balanced IMHO. The DeWalt has the handle mounted to the motor. I found the PC much more comfortable to use. You have one hand holding the fence in place and the other pushing the motor forward. When you use the DeWalt both hands are controlling the motor, this was not comfortable to me.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
I looked at both the PC and DeWalts when replacing my old Freud. Went with the PC mainly because the handle is mounted to the fence - it never made any sense having the handle on the motor. You use one hand to register the fence against the work, the other to push the blade in once you're set; with the PC you can do this without taking your hand off the handle.
Both are good units but the PC got my money because of the handle placement - better ergonomics. I love it. Sure is a vast improvement over that old Freud, with its totally bogus fence! Only problem I have is the collector bag fills up almost immediately and then the dust chute clogs. I take the bag off and just let the chips fly.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Ditto on the dust clogging. Sometimes I have to open the base plate to clear it out.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I bought the yellow one before the new PC was on the market. I had only used the old PC prior.
You mean the handle is really meant to be used for plunging? I thought it was just for carrying it around :). I use the motor for the handle when plunging which works just fine for me. It puts the axis of the plunging force much more in line with the CL of the blade, therein improving control.
I almost always use it with my vac, the bag is useless. Curiously the hose adapter fits my Fein vac hose perfectly. Maybe because it's really an Elu? Everything else, even the Bosch tools, have duct tape improved dust ports to fit the Fein rubber sleeve adaptor.
There is (was) an aftermarket 2" blade for it, I think Highland Hardware sells them. At $40 I got over the "need" for mini biscuits immediately.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Look at the Makita it's a rock solid unit. Purchased both the Makita and Dewalt and returned the yellow one.
DJK
Thanks, everyone. I seems that few tools handle sawdust very well, doesn't it? Why doesn't PC make the dust port a little larger so it doesn't clog up so easily? How does the Makita do with sawdust, DJK?
I will have to agree with the sawdust observation. I have the DeWalt and have gotten a whole lot of real good service out of it BUT the sawdust/chips are a real problem. The neck of the bag that came with it filled up almost immediatly (after only 3-4 cuts) so I marched it down to the Dewalt/B&D reapir station and the fellow there gave me a little plastic dust bag off of some cheap-o B&D tool. It is small but at least the chips have somewhere to go (rather then hang up in the bag) and I now get 8-10 cuts per emptying. Furthermore there is a little aluminum "wedge" in the opening where the chips eject that is supposed to keep our fingers out of the blade (Darwin award winners) but all it really does is cause the chips to pile up in one place so you have to dig them out with a pointed dowel...a real nuisance. If I ever get the chance I will have mine machined off.
The whole thing works better with a vacuum attached, but there is no easy way to do that short of using a bunch of duct tape.
Edited 9/16/2004 10:54 pm ET by el papa
That little aluminum wedge in the exhaust port that clogs up the sawdust twists off real easy with some needle nose pliers. You can file down the stub with a small file taking short strokes so as not to nick the blade. Cheers.
A good plan, I will do it tomorrow! Thank you for that.
The Makita chip port stays clear without clogging. The bag is full after 10 - 12 cuts. I use mine 90% of the time with dust collection.
I have both the Dewalt and the PC.
I bought the Dewalt to replace my first biscuit jointer, but from the beginning I had all kinds of trouble with alignment (joining two boards, edge to edge). So much so, I spoke to several Dewalt people at woodworking shows to see if there was something wrong with my technique (there wasn't).
When PC came out with the 557, I bought one and haven't had alignment problems again.
I also like the versatility of the PC.
The dust port on the 557 does clog almost instantly when the bag's attached, but everything else about the tool is great. I think it's well balanced, it's got a very good fence and the FF biscuits are great when you need them. The little plastic subbase that comes with it makes centering the FF biscuits on 1-1/2" stock a sure thing.
Dear friend,
Have had both a P.C. and a Freud for a few years.
The Freud is the favorite. Make sure the comments apply to the current Freud version (available since say 4 years ago or so). The current one is very good, and it's price is lower than the rest. There are many details to mention, but will say that the original Lamello design is hard to defeat. The Makita and the Freud are very close to the Lamello fundamentals. Other 'features' have their draw-backs actually.
-mbl-
Overknight,
I have not yet figured out, why anyone would need a biscuit jointer?
If I glue up boards and they are small enough to handle, such as door panels, I glue up directly from the table saw. Sometimes I'll use the jointer, when I did not get a good cut.
Anything that needs alignment, I use a joint bit, either on my shaper, or with a router and a straight edge, if it is a very long board. I don't only get perfect alignment, but also more glue surface and added strength in the tangential plane.
Willie
I use it for attaching face frames to boxes and assembling carcases, also for attaching nosing on ply shelves. Other than that I find all kinds of unusial uses where I don't trust pocket screws but don't need dado + rabbit or M & T joinery, like jigs. Mine is always close and ready to go. For me it is as faster than pocket screws especially on carcases where it is hard to clamp the parts in allignment. A biscuit joiner can be used an the individual pieces and then assembeled.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Complicated question.
When you make face frames do you slightly over size them to insure that you can trim them flush and therefore avoid the possibility of sanding through the veener on the sides to bring them flush with the face frame? If so how do you use the biscuit jointer on the face frame and get them to line up? If you do not overside them, don't you have trouble getting exact match up to the carcass and therefore have trouble wiht your veeners?
I use playing cards to shim under the fence of the biscuit joiner. It works very well especially if yor sides are not perfectlly straight. You tape the face frame to the carcass, lining it up on both sides and mark the amount of playing cards that it takes to be fairly flush to the face frame. This value could vary along the sides. Then all you have to do is place the amount of cards at the position you need to place a biscuit, place the joiner fence on the cards and cut the carcass slots.
Hope this helps.
Harold
I understand. So you do intentionally oversize your face frames.
Sounds a bit fussy. Then again I have not built my first carass and have not thought through the techniques I would use. I have always like the idea of the biscuits, but then again are small brads or finish nails all that hard to hid? If they bother you, then the biscuit is surely the way to go. splines would be more of a pain than biscuits or nail.
I am planning to build my first cabinets soon of a garage project. So I will experiment will some new techniques for face frames, drawers, and panel doors. Nice garage cabinets, no? A bit overkill, but the point is experimentation.
I tried small brads for the first set of cabinets I made and will never do it again. Every time I go into my son's room I get a quick reminder that this is not a good method. Lately I have been gluing the face frame to the carcass without biscuits. I make the face frame just a smidgen over size and finish with a flush mount router bit. Once I make sure it is lined up correctly I clamp away. haven't had any problems since.
Cheers and good luck.
Harold
Wow, glue only? I guess you do have a lot of glue surface. Never heard of anyone doing that. I was looking at my parents 25 year old custom kitchen cabinets the other day and saw the filled nail holes. Never thought about them before. I don't think they look that bad, but as a perfectionist I would notice them in my projects.
So we have at least one individual using biscuits here and one using glue only. Any other methods recommended here?
As I said I used biscuits with the playing cards to assure alignment, then decided to try glue only. My rationale was that in 3/4" plyboard with 5 plys, 3 of the plys will be straight grain along the vertical sides. This is roughly 1/4" of glue surface that is connecting to the straight grain of the face frame, with more plys the ratio could go up. with today's glue technology that is pretty good odds. If you build with the plywood back recessed and nailed into the carcass, that is giving you a lot of protection against racking, hence relieving some of the stress that would be imparted to the face frame.
I use titebond III for the longer open time, and Probond 800 for veneering and haven't had any problems as yet.
regards
Harold
The glue holding a face frame on a cabinet would have far more strength than needed and way more strength than any nails. It would take several tons of force to rip a glued on face frame off of a carcass.
The nails are there to hold the frame in place while the glue sets otherwise the job would be tied up in clamps for hours and the clamps would pull everything out of alignment.
John W.
Amen
regards
Harold
Well, the PC was delivered yesterday. Looks real nice. To set the fence at 90-degrees, you need to line up the marks on the degree scale instead of moving the fence to the stop, but I found the 90-degree mark to be right on.
I'm all set. I'll make a coping template this evening, and I'll start installing the baseboard molding this weekend. Thanks, everyone, for your advice.
Shakey,
I think I understand the question. If you mean the "face" of the face frame I have never had a real problem with that, as I have never used veneers on a faceframe. So any little sanding I may do dosen't matter. As far as alignment goes I have had more of that problem using pocket screws. When using the plate joiner I try to never use the fence unless it is absolutely necessary. I do all the slotting on a very flat work bench with the "face" sides down and use the base of the tool as the reference. If you are getting unacceptable flushness make shure that your stock is flat, bows and warping will throw it off, use the flattest work surface you have (table saw), and use hold down clamps to make sure the stock is secure to the table. Also concentrate on holding the joiner's base flat on the table and plunging in straight.
have fun,
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
No, I am talking about the face frame being as wider than the carcass (box). If the frame is smaller, obviously you can see the problem with the finished product. If the frame is built oversized, in other words, it is wider than the carcass you can sand it flush with the side of the carcass.
My question with regards to using a biscuit jointer to attach face frames had to do with the fact that if you route the slots for biscuits into the carcass. The slots are say 1/4" in from the edge of the carcass plywood. If you have a face frame which is 1/16" of an inch over sized and you route a slot 1/4 of an inch in from the edge of the frame, the slots will not line up. They would be 1/16 of an inche off.
The suggestion given was to use playing cards to adjust the slot to account for the 1/16 inche difference so as to line them up.
Still seem very fussy.
Stirred up,
OK, I see. Well for "cabinets" as in built in stuff or kitchen cabinets you want the frames to over hang the carcase 3/32" or so to make it easier to get the different boxes to meet without gaps. Especially if the walls aren't flat or straight (they never are). I use a 3/32 shim under the jointer to get the spacing. In fact I have a large selection of shims to do all kinds of allignment. Especially on the router. Instead of trying to move the fence 1/8" I just slip a 1/8" shim behind the work piece.
Yes, sometimes it is a PITA to get the numbers to work out. It is also easy to screw it up, like putting the spacer in the wrong place, or bad math. But, if I am making one or two cabinets it is, for me, the easiest way. If I am making several units, I use the dado/ rabbit method. This takes longer to set up, and requires more preplanning in the design stage, but is a lot faster in the production and assembly stage. Over all it is faster on a larger job. Plus it is the strongest method to attatch a faceframe. Many will argue that nothing more than nails and glue is necessary. I think that they are right to a certian degree. The only times I have seen it fail is when too little glue was used. When I go to sell a job I bring mockups of my construction techniques and use them to show why my stuff is the best. It seems to work.
In the sawdust factory,
Mike please excuse my spelling.
Yes, not a problem with kitchen cabinets with a built in 3/32 overhang, but for say a freestanding hutch with a face frame you need the face flush with the sides. Still the shims would work for an oversized frame and then trim it down.
why anyone would need a biscuit jointer?
Why does anyone need any tool? Because it does a job they need to do, the way they want to do it. You use a TS and a jointer - why? A hand saw and try plane will accomplish the same task... And a shaper?? Why does anybody need a shaper? Certainly it is an odd tool to suggest as an alternative to a biscuit joiner!
The glue joint bit is a good alternative, less expensive (assuming that you already have a router) than a biscuiter and makes a stronger edge joint. But could you use it to make end-grain butt joints, as the previous responder described? Or end-to-edge butt joints for face frames? Or to quickly assemble door casings, as described in a recent FHB?
Biscuit joiners are fast and easy to use, require zero setup time, don't change the dimensions of the piece, and can be used in all kinds of configurations. There is simply no faster or easier way to align joints. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Jellyrug, the biscuit jointer seems like the easiest and fastest means of joining pieces of baseboard molding together, and also to construct the wainscotting I have planned. I have a table saw but not a shaper. I will be installing quite a bit of cove molding later on, which isn't cheap, so being able to join pieces together should result in some savings.
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've been a little busy recently, and haven't been able to get out and look at the DeWalt, Makita and Freud tools. These sites (Taunton's) are great; I've gotten good, thought-provoking advice, and feel much more knowledgeable.
I bought this a short time ago so I don't have a ton of experience. What I do know I like very much. It feels very good in my hand and very smooth action. I like the abrasive edge as well. When I used it did not slip side to side. It came with two blades. I have not had an opportunity to use the FF biscuits, so I can speak to that. The fence is very smooth and I like the dust pick up. I also like that my vacuum hose that I use with my PC 890 fits it as well. I had no dust when using it. I was considering the lamello and dewalt. I do not do woodwork for a living, so I cannot justify the cost of the Lamello. The dewalt was a close second, but when I put both side by side, I just liked how the PC was made. I'm sure others with say the same about the dewalt. Good luck.
I originally had a Dewalt and had lots of problems with it cutting off parallell. The boards that I tried to edge glue never lined up right. I sold it on ebay and bought the PC. IMO, it is hands down a better machine.
I have not had any issues with slots lining up, and with the fence on the PC, I can set it to cut slots in 45 miters for corner alignment on plywood cabinets--something that the Dewalt cannot do.
Peter
About a year and a half ago, one of the woodworking magazines published an article on how to fix the alignment on a DeWalt plate joiner. Does anyone recall where that was?
Regards,
Dan
I remember the article, might have been in American Woodworker. I do remember testing my DW after reading it and it was within a few 1000ths so I didn't mess with it.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Thanks. I suspect mine is off a little.
Dan
Thanks, jptenberg. I think I've decided to get the Porter-Cable. Your comments confirmed my opinion of the fence, namely that there are things the PC can do that the DeWalt cannot. I was thinking of using biscuits in scarf joints to help join sections of baseboard and cornice molding together, but mikek4244 suggested that the biscuits alone in a butt joint will work fine, and that the scarf joint was not needed. The local Lowe's gets about $200.00 for the PC, but Amazon gets something like $195.00, with no shipping or taxes. That probably what I'll do.
You can get another 25 bucks off from amazon if you have an order of 200. I would get something to kick it over the 200. I have picked up two bessey clamps pretty cheap that way with free shipping included.
i have had:
porter cable, it had too much play in the head.
makita, good unit i ran it into the ground.
lamelo top20, big money but it works like a dream. and should be the last unit i ever buy.
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